2001 FIRST LEGO League Forum Archive

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       Building the table
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       A Texas Tournament??
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       Massachusetts
       Mountain Home Competition- Dec. 1st
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       NEW PHILLY COMPETITION AT FRANKLIN INST.
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           Looking for local tournaments in Northeast
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       North Carolina
           North Carolina State Tournament
       NOTRE DAME COMPETITION
       Philly Competition (Lansdale PA, Nov.18)(ALL FULL, 30 TEAMS)
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       Sacramento Valley Teams
       Tennessee
       Tournaments too soon.
       Training Aids
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   Questions for First-time Teams
       I am new kid in the ffl
   Rechargeable batteries
   Research Presentation???
   Resetting the roation sensor.
   rewards.
   Rhode Island Teams
   roation sensors
   Scandinavia
       NORGES STED ER HER!!!
           klage til FLL. VELDIG VIKTIG AT DERE ER MED * KLAGE!!!
       Safe Win
       Strupe FLL
       vi vant Champions pris`n i Trondheim!!
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   The video
   Tournament Questions
   Want to know who else is in the competition? Come here
   weather balloon release

Folder: Award Ceremony 12/22/2001 18:55:52 GMT
A few of our teammates will not be present for the tournament and a few others need to leave before the award ceremony. Will this have any effect on our ability to receive awards?

Discussion: So how many people does that leave? By: BOB 12/22/2001 18:55:52 GMT
In general, most teams will have one or two members who are unable to attend their competitions, but as long as you have a core team that is able to do the challenge missions, then your team would be eligible for awards. So not having everyone there wouldn't knock you out of the running for consideration of awards.

At an FLL event, the judges look at the team as a whole, not just the 2 kids on the floor running the robot. They will ask questions of the various team members and evaluate the team based upon what they see on the day of the competition. They will also look for team spirit from the team members, parents and siblings there for the team. Obviously, if you have a very small team present, it would be a bit harder to get noticed than other teams with more members there. But it's not enough to knock your team out of the running for possible awards.

Regarding the team members who have to leave before the award ceremony, those kids will really be missing out by leaving early. It won't prevent your team from being given any awards, but if you team does happen to win something, how sad for them if they participate all day in a competition and then leave before being congratulated by the other teams and see the awards given. But even if your team doesn't win any awards, it's a show of good sportmanship and respect to stay to give a show of support for a job well done to those that did peform well.

I'd have a serious talk with the parents and see if they could possibly rearrange their schedules so that all the kids who come to the competition can stay to the end. After all, the kids have spent the last 3 months working on this project, so it should be a high priority to the families involved. It is a big deal to the kids and tournament days when they are well run, are a lot of fun. So don't walk out before the end of the show if at all possible. It's really cheating the kids.

  1. Message by: Snow C.A.T.S. 12/16/2001 22:53:56 GMT
    My wife (the other Snow C.A.T.S. coach) noticed that at the state tournament the larger teams received all of the awards (other than the mission performance awards). There were teams present that had 20+ members.

    I believe the end results were as fair as they could be though I think the smaller teams are at a disadvantage in terms of 'presence'.


    1. Message by: Unibots 12/22/2001 02:16:39 GMT
      Max team size this year is 10, I'm surprised you saw
      teams larger than that.

      -Peter


    2. Message by: BOB 12/22/2001 08:26:04 GMT
      While it's true that the max number of kids per team is 10, some organizations have multiple teams registered, so that would account for a bigger presence.

      The winner of the volunteer award at the event we went to was a coach who had 7 teams there!


    3. Message by: Snow C.A.T.S. 12/22/2001 18:55:52 GMT
      From what we saw these large teams were composed of only 1 registered team. The ENTIRE team went up for the trophy. A very long string of people. What also adds to the quantities are the number of volunteers/parents/coaches with the same t-shirt...this too can swell the ranks.

      Jim


    4. Message by: GMT


Discussion: Thanks BOB! By: Falling Mercury 12/18/2001 08:16:01 GMT
Thanks for the great discussion on attending the ceremony and what to expect. As far as talking with the parents of the few that had to leave, it was established from day one that if this interfered in any way with basketball, basketball took priority. (We do live in Iniana, after all!) I also got the feeling from most parents that this was just some after school club their kids had joined. Despite my encouraging their participation, we (my husband and myself) were pretty much it. There was on mom who came to almost every meeting, and she had a great understanding of the essence of our team and tournament. Parents did, for the most part, come to the tournament, and at that point, were suitably impressed. Hopefully there will be a bigger committment from them next year.
Honestly, it was one of the best days of my life! (My husband says I need to get a life!) We had such great fun. Being a rookie team, we were a bit overwhelmed by the goings on, but we soon found our place and smiled the whole day long! The icing on the cake for the day was when we figured out why our program kept crashing every time we wanted to follow the black line. It seems there is some sort of ugly bug in the 2.0 software which would reset our clock from .01 to 0.0 every time we saved our program. Every time we had a round, things went great until the line thing. We finally realised what was going on, re-wrote as much of our program as we could between round 2 and 3, and managed to double our score!!! It was only 135, but it was huge to us!!! A great time was had by all and we are really looking forward to next year! Thanks again.

  1. Message by: BOB 12/18/2001 07:53:59 GMT
    You're welcome!
    Sounds like you all had a great time and learned a lot for the experience. FLL Tournaments are a lot of fun for everyone if they are done right.

    For our event, each team member had at least one parent there, so that was good, it was great to have everyone cheering in the stands, especially when our team made it all the way to 3rd place on the final round. One team member even had an uncle who flew in from The Netherlands just for the FLL event. Our state didn't have an event, so we had to drive for 12 hours to get to the event. His uncle flew into our area, drove with them for 12 hours to the event, then drove back another 12 and got on a plane back to The Netherlands at the end of the weekend. Too bad they didn't have an award for travel, he would have won it. ;-)

    What we have found is that FLL does have to take a high priority if you want to do it right. I always tell the parents it will eat up most of the fall, but because it's not a long term thing, people are able to rearrange their schedules for those weeks to do FLL. On the average we met twice a week for several hours each time, plus the kids did things outside of meetings as well. I think the kids who couldn't come to most every meeting just don't get as much out of it. Our parents were very actively involved, we couldn't have done that without them, but we're a home school team, so even the siblings got involved to an extent. We don't do it as a drop-off activity.

    Our team this year was half rookies, half those who had gone to a competition last year. So various points of view there.

    When it's not FLL challenge time, we do get together more informal, more like a club, different kids try it out, then when the challenge time comes up, those that do have the time are the ones who actually do the challenge and become team members.

    Now that we've gone to our competition, I must say that it does feel a bit odd not to have a house full of kids twice a week. We had a great season this year, so much more relaxed that last year when we didn't know what to expect since at that time we had never seen a tournament. Did a lot of last minute adjustments that year but still learned a lot and had fun.

    FLL has been a great experience for our kids, just something that is hard to explain to those who have not been through it before.



Folder: Challenge & Playing field 12/07/2001 18:14:06 GMT



Folder: Building the table 10/31/2001 02:23:00 GMT


Discussion: light covers By: Frostbyte 10/28/2001 17:46:14 GMT
Our table light has a cover. Should we remove it? Does anyone know if the ones at the competition will have covers?

  1. Message by: Rockin' Robots 10/04/2001 06:12:59 GMT
    The table building instructions mention "shop lights" which typically DO NOT have covers. The instructions also mention "tubes" for the lights which again sounds like just a plain bulb not covered by plastic.


    1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/05/2001 00:06:46 GMT
      There are so many types of shop lights that it is near impossible to match the one that will be used in a tournament and will probably be different for each tournament (local and state). Just be ready to change the values you use based on the conditions of the tournament. If you use a shroud over the sensor (see the scout / scooter directions) it will be less of a problem (the light will be from the sensor and not relying on ambient light).


    2. Message by: Snow C.A.T.S. 10/27/2001 16:55:27 GMT
      I read that programming/down loading is not allowed in the tournament area. Does this mean that there is time between rounds to take the robot out of the area to make adjustments to the robot's program?

      Jim
      Coach - Snow C.A.T.S.


    3. Message by: BOB 10/27/2001 20:41:15 GMT
      Yep! Ann Team B.O.B.


    4. Message by: Unibots 10/28/2001 17:46:14 GMT
      Snow CATS -- Yes! Absolutely, there is usually some form
      of "pit area" for each team where you can make any
      adjustments that might be needed. Just a brief word
      of advice:

      bring some form of "garage" for your robot to program
      it, the lights in various venues can interfere with
      the IR transmission, and the IR emissions from others
      can confuse your own programming (or worse yet,
      completely overwrite a program on your robot).

      Also, bring some sort of "cradle" for your robot to be
      carried to the tournament table in. If I had a dime
      for every time some team dropped their robot while standing
      in the "ready" area waiting to compete, I'd be a pretty
      rich man!

      -Peter


    5. Message by: GMT


Discussion: Table Building -- Questions and Ideas By: Indian Grove Four 10/31/2001 02:23:00 GMT
I just finished building my table, and I have a couple of variation ideas from the blueprints that can possibly help you out:

1) Instead of permanently mounting the uprights for the light, use two (or more) bolts with wingnuts on each end. Drill a 1/4" deep, 1" wide hole around your bolt hole to make sure the bolt head won't stick out on the inside of the field, then repaint the new indentation -- and maybe the bolt head itself. This makes it possible to move the table in something smaller than an aircraft carrier, or possibly on a car roof.

2) Another way to help make things portable is to connect the uprights to the crossbeam using hinges. They'll stay straight up when fully extended, and will fold flat for transport.

3) Third trick for transportability: Mount 2 casters on each of two 24" 2x4s. Use two bolts to mount each "axle" crosswise on the side of your playfield. Enough axle should stick out to strap the folded uprights and crossbeam. If you mount them less than 4 feet apart, you can probably strap your light to the axles. Now you can roll your playfield into your tourney site.

Now, related questions:
1) Will a piece of black duct tape be permitted on the walls to hide the holes I've made (I could always make some plugs)?

2) Are sawhorses usually used at tourneys? How do they get everyone to the same height (which they've got to be for the shared Medical Barrel)?

Joel

  1. Message by: Frostbyte 10/01/2001 22:53:50 GMT
    For the fluorescent light above the challenge table, do you need to take the cover off? Frostbite


    1. Message by: Arctic Fire 10/02/2001 02:24:10 GMT
      I can answer the sawhorse question. FLL has plans available for table legs used on tables at tournaments. They are sturdier and would likely hold tables more consistantly at the same height.

      Ross


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/31/2001 02:23:00 GMT
      Joel -

      On trick #3, do you have some kind of rough sketch or
      something you could post or e-mail? I'm having trouble visualizing the "axle" concept and where things would be strapped.

      Thanks!
      -Peter (pvogel@arsin.com)
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers



Folder: Construction - field & elements 11/21/2001 02:29:33 GMT
Folder to hold the discussions relating to the construction of the playing field and the individual elements


Folder: Balloon 11/07/2001 22:49:40 GMT
Is anyone else finding that the balloon mechanism will not fit within its outline, because it is too close to the iceberg?

The Difference

Discussion: Weather balooon outline By: madscientists 11/07/2001 22:49:40 GMT
Yes, I am also finding that the weather balloon is not fitting on the playing field with the ice floe. The triggering mechanism gets in the way.

The weather balloon base does fit if the weather base is moved one lego unit on the black base. I don't believe that this is sanctioned, so a check with FIRST seems to be in order.

  1. Message by: Polar Blast 10/01/2001 02:32:39 GMT
    We also have the problem. Can you please post the correct position for the parts when FIRST responds? We moved the base black plastic piece one unit in and everything lines up OK. Obviusly, this is an alteration and may change the results in competition.


    1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/02/2001 05:24:11 GMT
      What you did is correct: move the module in by one LEGO unit as built, don't build it differently.

      --Jack Gregory


    2. Message by: madscientists 10/03/2001 00:02:49 GMT
      Scott Evans of FLL has also confirmed that the correction that both the Polar Blast and I stated will be sanctioned. Move the entire weather balloon unit over one Lego unit on the base. The triggering mechanism should then be above the edge of the base plate rather than hanging over the edge of the base plate.

      Scott promises to post this correction on a Q&A session soon as well.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184 - The Mad Scientists


    3. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/04/2001 00:58:38 GMT
      There seems to be still some confusion and FLL should set it straight quickly! FIRST Sharon says "don't build it differently." which implies that you move the base of the balloon back one block. Mad scientists says "the triggering mechanism should then be above the edge of the base plate rather than hanging over the edge of the base plate." which implies that the balloon is build differently and the base is not moved. Confused????

      I appreciate both of you talking to FLL but when we get different answers it is not good to be getting official notice from others besides FLL. Does this mean all 2000 teams should contact FLL themselves to get a straight answer or will FLL quickly indicate the correct position. I would have thought that it would have been in the setup recently placed on the web site. Once again FLL can't keep up.

      Dave Kolberg


    4. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/09/2001 18:46:06 GMT
      The effective placement of the mechanism is not affected by whether you move the entire assembly or the baseplate relative to the rest. So this isn't something that requires high priority attention from FLL. As an exercise, do the mission built both ways, and be prepared for either in a contest.

      --Jack Gregory


    5. Message by: ThreeBees 10/18/2001 00:15:09 GMT
      Thx for noting us. anyway what is the lever comtraptions' points?


      Jonny To


    6. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 17:59:06 GMT
      We're not having any trouble with the weather balloon, it's just our robot has trouble getting through the snow, and we're not using trends. Does anyone have any sollution to our problem?


    7. Message by: JACDD 11/07/2001 19:37:01 GMT
      If people have solutions to the snow problem or any other problem directly related to a mission, I would prefer they keep it to themselves. I think this forum is great for logistics, clarification of the rules, how to make the software do what you want, etc, but at some point we are all in competition too. Publicly discussing the stuff we're supposed to "figure out" partially takes the challenge and fun out of it. Yes, we have solutions to many of the problems and are working on others, and no, I'm not going to tell you what our approach is. I know we would have enjoyed the process much less if you told us how you are going about it before we started. I'm also looking forward to getting to the tournament and seeing all the radically different solutions that we didn't think of.


    8. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 22:49:40 GMT
      JACDD -- I agree! It's as bad as someone telling you the
      ending of a movie as you walk in to see it for the
      first time!

      Droidz -- Expand your thinking a little, if your robot
      cannot get to the trip wire through the snow,
      what other possibilities are there? Is there
      something you could do to avoid the snow?

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    9. Message by: GMT



Folder: securing lego constructions 11/19/2001 16:49:15 GMT
Hello fello lego maniacs. Any ideas on how to secure lego constructions to the table? What is allowed?
JoshuaS

Discussion: Sticking pieces to playing field By: madscientists 11/19/2001 16:49:15 GMT
You should have received some sheets of 3M Dual Lock with the playing field. It is a veclro-like material that will stick to the bottom of the platforms and flags and to the playing field.

Directions for the 3M Dual Lock fastener were not provided with the shipment. The best guidance for placement of the Dual Lock material is elsewhere in the forum, and there are two different approaches. From the main forum page, see "Need Challenge Details" then either messages #52 or #51.

First method: Message #52 will show a link to the small square method that Jack Gregory of FIRST Sharon discusses.

Second method: Message #51 also refers to #50 and #49 for a procedure to cut the material into panels for various locations. This method is useful if you wre provided with two sheets of Dual Lock of the proper size.

The message numbering may change (the message numbers were #41.1 and #45 yesterday), but I know you will find the information in "Need Challenge Details."

- Mark, Coach, Team 184

  1. Message by: Confused&Bewildered 11/10/2001 05:06:00 GMT
    We got a single, "large" sheet of Dual Lock. I cut it out based on Mark's directions, and had very little leftover material. Thanks, Mark!

    Separate issue, though: I have this memory that one of the pre-marked locations on the mat was off by a single brick since - evidently - something doesn't work right. I think it may have been the weather tower. I've been searching the forum, but I haven't found that reference yet. If you know what I mean, I'd appreciate a pointer. Otherwise, it will be trial and error.

    Ah ha! Found it. It's actually the weather balloon that needs to be moved. See Forum:Challenge & Playing field: Construction - field & elements:Balloon:Weather Balooon outline[sic]

    -Del, coach team 1481


    1. Message by: TBA 11/18/2001 14:14:08 GMT
      What dual lock tape


      1. Message by: Confused&Bewildered 11/19/2001 16:49:15 GMT
        We got a 300mm x 300mm (12"x12") sheet of the stuff. It has stiff loops on one side, and a peel off backing on the other. You cut it up and put some on the mat and some on the LEGO constructions that aren't supposed to move, like the Ice Core, the Ice Floe, and the Weather Tower. The loops will lock into each other when you press them together. Mark's cutting plan makes efficient use of the stuff, and ensures good coverage.


Discussion: Extra Pieces By: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/20/2001 19:26:20 GMT
Discussion on what the extra pieces are for

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 09/24/2001 20:20:42 GMT
    From other discussions it appears that the extra pieces will be used in the ice station as water and deep snow.


    1. Message by: Hillside Ice 09/27/2001 21:08:06 GMT
      I do agree acording to every one els.


    2. Message by: roboraiders 10/05/2001 22:15:17 GMT
      We also agree with Righteous2 that the extra pieces will be used as water and deep snow. To find out more go to North America, then Challenge 2001, then Playing Field and you will see an image of the pieces and where they should go.


      1. Message by: TBA 10/20/2001 19:26:20 GMT
        Yes it's to make it more challaging to activate the ballon relase, a flag and the instrment

        Londonderry,NH Member
        Hugslyscot


    3. Message by: Unibots 10/06/2001 02:58:48 GMT
      It's explained very well in the "playing field setup" instructions on the Challenge 2001 web site

      -Peter


    4. Message by: Cha Cha Icebergs 10/11/2001 01:40:07 GMT
      I don't even know what your talking about. please explain to me.


    5. Message by: Unibots 10/11/2001 22:04:06 GMT
      http://www.firstlegoleague.org/sitemod/design/layouts/default/index.asp?pid=3800

      Or, go to the Challenge 2001 section of the site and
      follow the "Playing Field" link in the table of contents
      on the left.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and IceBreakers


Discussion: Black Table Border By: Bears 11/01/2001 18:08:05 GMT
When painting the border around the table, should the black paint be flat, gloss or semi-gloss? Does this make a difference to the light sensor?

  1. Message by: Unibots 09/26/2001 18:09:27 GMT
    It makes a *slight* difference, I used a flat black brush-on from home depot that may have been a rustoleum brand, good for wood, metal, etc.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Robotics Club


    1. Message by: Indian Grove Four 09/26/2001 18:14:19 GMT
      I've bought (but not yet painted) a flat spray paint. It would seem that flat, because it is less reflective, would be simpler to detect as different from white.

      It really shouldn't make much difference, especially if you're 'tuned' for the playfield lighting, and of course are prepared for changes due to the room lighting on tourney day.

      Regardless, I don't think we're going to be 'looking' for walls, just noticing when we bump 'em. It might be possible to 'find' the ice core hoop, but it's black on a black background, so that sounds difficult anyway.

      Joel


    2. Message by: Unibots 09/26/2001 18:36:30 GMT
      re: "looking" for walls. Based on past experience, you are
      absolutely right. One thing I have seen people do is build a "wall hugger" robot that has a wheel to roll along the wall so that a touch sensor is kept pressed while the robot hugs the wall. That can be useful since line-following tends to leave the robot positioned somewhat unpredictably w.r.t. the direction they are facing (i.e. as much as 20 degrees to either side of the line).

      -Peter


    3. Message by: Trailside Arctic Timberwolves 11/01/2001 03:43:51 GMT
      Do all the mission pieces (the fuel shed, flags, etc.) stay on the map during all the mission?

      -nick24


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/01/2001 18:08:05 GMT
      Yes! Everything is on the mat all the time, except those
      things which you have to bring back to base, which can
      be put off the table to get them out of the way.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Sharing Resources By: Skuas 10/25/2001 04:33:45 GMT
We are two teams sharing resources. Is it ok to use our own lego pieces to construct the field elements following the plans given? If we do this, the colors might not always be accurate. Is this still ok?
Thanks.
Marie Hopper in NC

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/08/2001 20:07:05 GMT
    It is for your own practice and you can make them out of whatever color you want. You will not use them for any tournaments, they provide their own.


    1. Message by: Skuas 10/09/2001 00:29:12 GMT
      We are new at this. Could you please clarify who "they" are? If there is a regional or local tournament, do we provide our own tables etc...? And is this different than at the state level?

      Marie Hopper


    2. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/09/2001 18:50:56 GMT
      Since the Challenge Kit sets are all gone, local tournaments that did not reserve enough from FLL MAY be requesting teams to bring theirs. It all depends on how formal the tournament is.

      The mats this year are a new wrinkle. In the past, we could always make another table, but you can't now. So the official mats are in more demand.

      --Jack Gregory


    3. Message by: Skuas 10/10/2001 01:19:05 GMT
      So if we decide to have a local tournament, we can pretty much do it our own way? There are a small number of rookie teams that would like to do something small-scale but we are also sharing resources. We were thinking about making a table and simply painting the lines on it, thus having a second table for the tournament. Is this acceptable?

      Thanks, Jack, for all your informative help!

      Marie Hopper


    4. Message by: madscientists 10/10/2001 06:10:12 GMT
      I would suppose that the black lines could be painted on. Other alternatives which might leave you a good clean board for next year include
      - black electrical tape
      - a white sheet of wide paper with black lines painted or drawn on, then tack the paper dows to the board with tape.
      You'll have to make a call from there on how different the playing fields are for the local tournament.

      The other challenges of the homemade layout are to have the Lego field elements and a means to keep then in place. Velcro or double-sided tape probably isn't as elegant as the Dual Lock material but might work out to keep the ice platform, flags, weather ballon, weather station, and ice core in place.

      I'm assuming that you have the Lego pieces for the field elements, but there is one local team that does not have their elements or a mat yet. We're working out a sharing arrangement for the next few weeks so that team can get going on the challenge.

      -- Mark, Coach, Team 184


    5. Message by: Skuas 10/11/2001 02:10:36 GMT
      Actually, neither of our teams has anything at this point. And our second team only got in because we were willing to share. So we will be scrounging what we can from personal sets and following the plans on-line. Thanks for the suggestions for keeping this beautiful piece of plywood clean for future uses! I hadn't thought of that - too obvious.
      Marie


    6. Message by: Moe Knows 10/15/2001 22:23:28 GMT
      Moe Knows Wants to Know....
      We want to use other lego pieces than what's in our mindstorm kit. Can we use similar that's not in our kit, or is that illegal?


    7. Message by: madscientists 10/16/2001 00:19:00 GMT
      Moe Knows Now Knows . . . :-)

      From the official rules

      13) The robot may consist only of unaltered LEGO pieces from this or a previous year*s FLL kit of robot building pieces. Use of any non-LEGO materials or substances (examples: stickers, tape, glue, oil) may result in disqualification. The following component maximums will be enforced: 3 motors, two touch sensors, 2 light sensors, 1 rotation sensor, and 1 RCX.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    8. Message by: Skuas 10/23/2001 02:53:51 GMT
      We could use some guidance regarding allowed lego pieces for the robot itself.

      We sorted out all the pieces from the back of the constructopedia. Then we found an FLL Parts Inventory List on the MN website (hightechkids). It had a few things in addition to the book such as standard bricks and extra hubs, bushings, etc... I was assuming that this was including the extra parts shipped for last year's challenge and that those parts are also allowed. Is this a correct assumption?

      Also, we finally received our kit. The upgrade kit had several small bags of pieces. These are allowed on the robot, correct? And are these pieces in addition to the MN list and the book list?

      Thanks!

      Marie Hopper


    9. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/24/2001 04:15:01 GMT
      I have been working this for the past few days. The first point to make is that the Minnesota tournament has more restrictive parts rules than the FLL rule. What they publish is a subset of the allowed parts.

      FLL also has a list, as a 1mb MS Word document, that they will send on request. This list includes stuff from prior years -- Minnesota doesn't want that.

      But, sadly, the FLL list, nor the MN list, includes as additional the items in the $80 "FLL Tech Upgrade Kit 2001" that you ordered when you signed up. I have spoken with (well, emailed) both of the progenitors of these lists about this issue, and it doesn't look like it is going to be fixed.

      SO, you technically are not allowed to use all the parts in a RIS 1.5 or 2.0 box PLUS the 2001 Upgrade Kit, if you go by the official lists. But Rule 13 clearly implies you can.

      The result? I think you have case for using a single RIS and the FLL 2001 upgrade kit. This means, for example, that you have far more of those nice little 2x2 corner plates than show on anyone's list.

      It is easy to get upset about these discrepancies, but I urge you to not take it too seriously. The robot check in process is really only looking for those major items listed: sensors, motors, etc. They aren't going to count black friction pins and gray bushings. You would have to destroy most robots to get a precise accounting anyway.

      --Jack Gregory


      1. Message by: Skuas 10/25/2001 00:47:50 GMT
        Thank you Jack! I don't mean to sound too worried over this. We are two homeschooling teams trying to recreate the original mindstorms kit from several very well-mixed home kits. The one set of pieces that the kids were most concerned about when we did our sorting and compared the constructopedia list to the MN list was the 2x2, and 2x4 bricks. They really see a need to use those but none are included in the original mindstorms kits we have.

        Also, we were only able to order and receive one upgrade kit for two teams (since FLL ran out, evidently). So we are again scrounging through personal sets to make our own upgrade set for the second team.

        Thanks for all your help!

        Marie Hopper


    10. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/25/2001 04:33:45 GMT
      >The one set of pieces that the kids were most concerned about when we did our sorting and compared the constructopedia list to the MN list was the 2x2, and 2x4 bricks. They really see a need to use those but none are included in the original mindstorms kits we have.

      Actually, those ARE from the original RIS 1.0 set. That is why they are there. The original set contained a lot of black bricks that were dropped in favor of more Technic elements in the RIS 1.5/2.0 sets. These are included so that people with the 1.0 stuff can use them.

      >Also, we were only able to order and receive one upgrade kit for two teams (since FLL ran out, evidently). So we are again scrounging through personal sets to make our own upgrade set for the second team.

      The official word (today) is that the "FLL Tech Upgrade Kit 2001" is not all legal to use if you have a RIS 1.5/2.0 set. This was an oversight, but you aren't supposed to use 10 "Cross Blocks" for example, only 6. But this is only if you are being pedantic and precise. The things that get counted are sensors and motors.

      So don't worry about making up upgrade kits if you have RIS 1.5 or 2.0 sets -- you aren't really supposed to use all that stuff. Only the motor, rotation and light sensors.

      Yeah, I know, $80 for parts you aren't allowed to use? Yes, apparently.

      --Jack Gregory


    11. Message by: GMT


Discussion: field mat needed By: Nettle 11/02/2001 18:22:44 GMT
If anyone knows of a printer willing to print a playing field please email me at mmotherway@haverhill-ma.com
Lego ran out of materials.

thanks

  1. Message by: Unibots 10/20/2001 02:39:54 GMT
    The problem, of course, would be that the colors might not be the same, so you'd have to be ready to re-calibrate your light sensor at tournaments. Where are you getting the file from which to print, and what format is it in?

    Kinko's is the only large-format printer I'm aware of that's
    convenient nationwide.

    -Peter


    1. Message by: madscientists 10/20/2001 04:16:07 GMT
      If light sensor recalibration is needed and you are using Robolab, setting the light sensor thresholds with container values rather than actual numbers can speed the re-calibration process. Doing this is faster and more reliable can tring to change the threshold on each light sensor fork block in the program. If multiple containers are needed, install the extras (under "Project" on the menu bar) in Inventor Level 4. I'm not familiar enough with RIS to know if this option would exist in RIS.

      If you are assertive in getting the field, someone at 3M did release the file format. Another local team has obtained this file due to their lack of a playing field mat. I'd be willing to pass on a request for the file to this team if you contact me (beitz@concentric.net).

      The other challenge is the printer itself. Most engineering drawing plotters handle 36" wide roll media. On a 36" wide printer, two printouts would be needed with some matching of the two pieces needed.

      - Mark Beitz, Coach, Team 184


    2. Message by: Skuas 10/23/2001 02:57:12 GMT
      We were able to capture the table image from the website and make a transparency of it. When we projected it onto our board with the mat, we found it to be a very good match - better than anticipated! So we were able to trace the lines onto the board to create our second playing field. We are fairly confident we can match the paint colors to the mat for a good practice field.

      Marie Hopper


    3. Message by: Nettle Knights 10/23/2001 13:51:17 GMT
      I got the format from LegoLeague Tech Support. They ran short of Matts and that's the only way I could still register teams, by agreeing to make my own matt.

      thanks, Kinkos is a possibility for us.


    4. Message by: Nettle Knights 10/23/2001 13:53:37 GMT
      Thanks for your replies. Are you tracing onto a whiteboarrd surface rather than using a matt?

      Mike


      1. Message by: Skuas 10/24/2001 03:30:10 GMT
        We have one mat for two teams. But since our teams meet in different locations, we decided that the second team really needed a good playing field of their own. So the overhead transparency, when projected onto the real mat was a good fit.

        We traced it onto the plywood itself and plan to paint the plywood. When comparing the texture of the mat and the plywood, they were very similar to the touch. We did splurge and use a slightly higher grade piece of ply rather than the cheapest - this was to avoid knotholes and other irregularities. (Mh husband is a woodworker so he made the choice!)

        Marie Hopper


    5. Message by: Unibots 10/23/2001 23:42:13 GMT
      Be careful of using a whiteboard! It has several properties that differ significantly from the mat:

      1. A whiteboard is much "slicker" than the mat, so a skid-steer robot will turn more easily on a whiteboard.

      2. A whiteboard is much more reflective than the mat,
      especially on the "white" part, so your light sensor
      readings will differ significantly from what you will
      find at a tournament, even if you carefully shroud your
      light sensor from ambient light (a highly recommended
      approach!).

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    6. Message by: Nettle Knights 10/24/2001 04:05:03 GMT
      We have 4 middle schools participating that each have tables in tact from last year. Having the white surface already in place I'm thinking of making the best of what I have. Adjusting light settings at a tournament isn't too drastic but the surface texture sounds like it could be siginificantly different. hmmm.......


    7. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/24/2001 22:05:04 GMT
      If you still need a mat, it might pay to keep in touch with Lego in case some additional mats materialize. They sent us two by mistake and we returned the extra. If they did that with anyone else, there could be a small number of mats that turn up available.

      Good luck,

      Mary Kay
      Coach, St. Joe's #1


    8. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/25/2001 19:58:44 GMT
      SKuas, If you paint it this year, you will have to get a new board next year, the paint could show through the mat and cause problems next year when you do get a mat.


    9. Message by: Sherrod 11/02/2001 08:06:26 GMT
      My team just found out we will not receive a mat, and have a copy of the artwork. Of what is the matting made? Would counter-top laminate be close in texture?


    10. Message by: Unibots 11/02/2001 18:22:44 GMT
      It's 1/8" vinyl with some kind of thin protective layer on
      top that can separate from the printed portion. It's
      "slicker" than, for example melamine, which is what we used
      last year. I'd say anything you use will be better than
      nothing, you may need to make slight adjustments, but unless your drive mechanism is something really unique you
      should be fine.

      -Peter


Discussion: Scientists By: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/25/2001 05:00:23 GMT
Discussion for the scientists

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 09/24/2001 19:57:49 GMT
    It looks like the scientists will be between the polar bears and the edge of the field. Does anybody know how big the "bear's block of ice" is? is it the whole section outlined by the black lines (cracks?) in the field?


    1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/24/2001 21:57:30 GMT
      Yes, it is the area of white within the black "cracks", or "leads" as they want to call them.

      --Jack Gregory


    2. Message by: Concord Hotspots 10/09/2001 13:53:27 GMT
      The scientists look like they're not in trouble, mabey if you made them move it would be more challangeing! Look you want it to be a challangeing thing so why don't you make them move?
      I really want this to be a interesting expereance!

      --Ashley Jackson
      Columbus, Pennsylvania


    3. Message by: ThreeBees 10/18/2001 18:54:42 GMT
      Well if they weren't why would we be asked to S.A.V.E. them


    4. Message by: Arctic Dolphins 10/25/2001 03:58:08 GMT
      If you don't rescue the scientists what will happen? Will
      they blow up?

      Arctic Dolfins


    5. Message by: Arctic Dolphins 10/25/2001 04:06:37 GMT
      You might want to try build all of the basic robots like the robo bot, inventor bot, and the acro bot


    6. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 05:00:23 GMT
      Arctic Dolphins -- They'll probably freeze to death
      when the storm comes, or be eaten by the polar bears!

      -Peter


Discussion: Medical Supply By: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/03/2001 19:24:34 GMT
Discussion on Medical Supply Challenge

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 09/24/2001 20:03:22 GMT
    Looking at the new picture in the missions section, it looks like the medical supply container will straddle the back wall. It is still not clear wether another team will be working on the other side of the wall or not. It looks close enough to the center that both teams could be working on the same container. Any thoughts?


    1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/24/2001 21:56:07 GMT
      It will definitely be the same item for two competing teams to try for. The tournament situation is two tables, back to back, making a 3" wide section on which the platform straddles.

      --Jack Gregory


    2. Message by: robocats 09/27/2001 21:58:56 GMT
      We're newbies--does this situation mean that we have to try to beat the other team to the medical supply container?


    3. Message by: Unibots 09/27/2001 23:39:52 GMT
      Robocats -- Yep! That's what it means :-)

      -Peter


    4. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/28/2001 05:13:34 GMT
      Only if you want the 50 points. ;-)

      --Jack Gregory


    5. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/02/2001 06:17:45 GMT
      The position of the medical supply is not shown on the mat. In other discussions it seems that the correct position will be in the center. This makes sense for two teams to be going after it. The platform goes over one two by four just fine. when two playing fields are next to each other, 2 two by fours will be back to back and the platform does not work any more. Will the tournament tables use one two by four between the fields and adjust the width accordingly?


    6. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/02/2001 19:46:27 GMT
      No, the platform sits on two 2x4s back to back. It sits much higher as a result, because it is sitting on the "arm mounts" rather than the flat plate.

      --Jack Gregory


    7. Message by: Unibots 10/03/2001 16:35:33 GMT
      Jack --

      Are you sure? That makes it hard to use a single practice
      field unless you clamp on an extra 2x4... With a single
      field the "natural" position is to have the platform
      resting on the plate.

      -Peter


    8. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/03/2001 17:32:09 GMT
      See the playing field setup instructions, now on the web site, under Challenge 2001. There are several photos and drawings that should convince you.

      "Natural" or not, you do have to add a second 2x4 to simulate the tournament situation.

      --Jack Gregory


    9. Message by: Unibots 10/03/2001 19:24:34 GMT
      Thanks Jack, I'd just seen them after posting you're absolutely right.

      -Peter


Discussion: Playing Field By: Wolverines 10/16/2001 20:14:38 GMT
Does any one have an actual photo of the playing field. If so would they please post it.

  1. Message by: Unibots 09/24/2001 22:20:55 GMT
    There's a picture of the field in the "missions" section on the challenge web site.

    I'll post pictures of our fields as soon as I get mats.

    -Peter


    1. Message by: Hillside Ice 09/27/2001 21:09:57 GMT
      Cool I'd like to see it.


    2. Message by: robocats 09/27/2001 22:21:07 GMT
      What happens if you knock down the barrels and the pieces fall into the restricted area?


    3. Message by: Unibots 09/27/2001 23:42:00 GMT
      What restricted area?

      -Peter
      Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Robotics Club


    4. Message by: Bears 10/02/2001 23:59:28 GMT
      Does the ice sheet get glued down using the 3M fastener? (Ice sheets float) The ice sheet has quite a few inches of border that if not uniformly supported by the fastener could cause the individual blocks to buckle or come loose.

      Thanks,
      Orrin


    5. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/03/2001 04:51:35 GMT
      The Ice Platform does get attached using DualLock. The setup instructions show little squares of DualLock being distributed evenly over the bottom. I am putting a little square (less than 1 square inch) every few inches or so.

      The problem is that the slopes (ramp) pieces don't touch the surface anymore, and will come off. But you can put a whole strip along them.

      --Jack Gregory


    6. Message by: Lego Lords 10/04/2001 18:37:27 GMT
      Were setup directions suppose to come with the layout? I got only the layout and the 3M fastener.


    7. Message by: madscientists 10/04/2001 20:04:21 GMT
      Directions for the 3M Dual Lock fastener were not provided with the shipment. The best guidance for placement of the Dual Lock material is elsewhere in the forum, and there are two different approaches. From the main forum page, see "Need Challenge Details" then either messages #52 or #51.

      First method: Message #52 will show a link to the small square method that Jack Gregory of FIRST Sharon discusses.

      Second method: Message #51 also refers to #50 and #49 for a procedure to cut the material into panels for various locations. This method is useful if you wre provided with two sheets of Dual Lock of the proper size.

      The message numbering may change (the message numbers were #41.1 and #45 yesterday), but I know you will find the information in "Need Challenge Details."

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    8. Message by: robocats 10/04/2001 21:47:03 GMT
      Were new, can we cross over the ice leads once or more than that and are those the black lines on the mat?


    9. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/05/2001 00:21:23 GMT
      You will most likely use the ice leads as guides for your robot to follow (line follower). So yes you will cross over them multiple times. There is nothing you cannot cross over. The entire field is yours to do with what you may. there is no out of bound areas. Just don't bump into the bears.


    10. Message by: Bricksters 10/06/2001 03:57:58 GMT
      I must echo the cautionary statement on this website about creasing the playing field. Our mat apparently fell out of the tube during shipping and was stuffed back in. Creasing has caused the lamination layers to bubble and separate. The mat is unusable.

      Hoping the replacement arrives soon,
      Carol Zafiropoulos
      Coach of the Bricksters


    11. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/06/2001 17:56:43 GMT
      I'm starting to think maybe we're the only team that still doesn't have a mat! Is anyone else in the same boat? We're Team #640 and I know that the mats were to be shipped in the order that registrations were received so I expected to be pretty far down the line, but not this far. :-(
      I've e-mailed FIRST and am awaiting their response.

      Stranded in KY without a mat,

      Mary Kay


      1. Message by: Robotz Inc. 10/10/2001 14:39:31 GMT
        I just called Pitsco Today and found out that they are expecting the mats any day and will ship then, Unless you have a robot kit or upgrade kit on order also. If that is the case, they are waiting until they receive the kits. They quote this as 10/20. Not great news, but I hope it helps.


        1. Message by: Skuas 10/11/2001 02:06:06 GMT
          I, too, called Pitsco and was told they will ship everything at once. So in our case, we only registered one team planning to share resources - so our second team has received the FLL manual but our first team has not received anything. It looks like we will not be receiving our order until late Oct. Oh well.

          Marie Hopper


    12. Message by: Skuas 10/07/2001 22:53:38 GMT
      We are two teams sharing one playing field and challenge kit. Our question is: how do you recommend that we make a second playing field for the other team to practise on? We would also need a second field for a mini-local tournament. Since we do not have ours yet, I'm unclear as to how it is made (materials, etc...) Thanks!
      Marie Hopper in NC


    13. Message by: Liquid Stealth 10/08/2001 22:31:31 GMT
      Mary Kay,

      We are team 394 and as of Monday, 10-08-01 we do not have our mat. Our guys are also getting a little anxious.


    14. Message by: Arctic Angels 10/09/2001 02:26:30 GMT
      With the barrels do we have 10 or 15? We are confused because the Scoring sheet said 10, and the Challenge said 15? Please help!
      -Jenn


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/14/2001 19:10:53 GMT
        Hi Jenn,

        There are 15 total -- five start out in the fuel storage hut and 10 start out in base and have to be moved into the fuel storage hut during competition.

        Hope that helps,

        Mary Kay
        Coach, St. Joe's #1


        1. Message by: Arctic Angels 10/16/2001 00:47:32 GMT
          Thanks so much Mary Kay!!! You have no idea how much that's helped us.
          --Jenn, Arctic Angels


    15. Message by: fhelego (we are actually the Icebots) 10/09/2001 19:23:25 GMT
      I saw a picture somewhere that shows loose bricks in the holes of the Ice Platform. Are we allowed to cross over them?


      1. Message by: 6 hyperactive snowballs & a robot 10/10/2001 16:25:53 GMT
        Yes, you are allowed to cross over the loose "bricks" in the holes of the Ice Platform.


    16. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/09/2001 23:15:01 GMT
      You will build 15 barrels, 10 for moving from the start to the fuel hut and 5 already in the hut. The 5 in the hut are used as a count for the number of times you have to pick up your robot during the match (see rules and score in the main challenge menu).

      Yes, there are loose "bricks" in the holes of the Ice Platform. You should have two bags of white round pieces and three bags of blue pegs. The blue pegs represent water and go in the small hole, the round pieces go in the large hole and represent loose snow.


      1. Message by: Arctic Angels 10/16/2001 00:51:27 GMT
        Hold on! Did you say two bags of white pieces and three bags of blue pieces? We were shipped three bags of white and two bags of blue. I think one of us has a problem.
        --Jenn, Arctic Angels


    17. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/16/2001 20:14:38 GMT
      Be prepared for any amount of white and blue pieces. The idea is to make it hard for crossing and you will not know how many will be used at the tournament (I stopped counter after alot). So experiment and be prepared for lots and little.


    18. Message by: GMT


Discussion: Ice Core By: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/20/2001 23:11:58 GMT
Discussion on Ice Core

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 09/25/2001 20:02:18 GMT
    The mission only states that any part of the ice core needs to be returned and does not say that it has to be pulled out to get the points. This means that if the block is dragged back, this should count (though may be difficult with the adhesive being used). If the adhesive gives way, the team should not be penalized for that.


    1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/25/2001 20:22:31 GMT
      Actually, it does say "pull the ice core", but I am sure you won't be penalized if the block comes with it. But I am just as sure that the block won't come with it. In fact, it would be a pretty tough challenge to make a robot that could tear it off.

      --Jack Gregory


    2. Message by: Assembly Required 09/27/2001 13:02:44 GMT
      We're new this year... am assuming by "adhesive" used, you mean that the ice core is glued to the mat? What other items will be glued down? I have other questions, too. Is there info somewhere that gives specific info on the tournament... such as, don't we get to know the "exact" location of the items on the playing field?

      Assembly Required Coach


      1. Message by: Emperor Penguins2 10/18/2001 05:18:36 GMT
        See this link for what's glued down & what isn't:

        http://www.firstlegoleague.org/site mod/design/layouts/default/index. asp?id=3800


      2. Message by: Emperor Penguins2 10/18/2001 05:19:02 GMT
        See this link for what's glued down & what isn't:

        http://www.firstlegoleague.org/sitemod/design/layouts/default/index.asp?pid=3800


    3. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/27/2001 16:59:33 GMT
      See the other discussions for what items are "fixed". Essentially, anything you have to push to operate is attached to the table surface via velcro (so the surface can be rolled back up). They said they are shipping the veclro with the mat (both come from 3M, and they don't like it being called velcro!).

      --Jack Gregory


    4. Message by: Hillside Ice 09/27/2001 21:05:59 GMT
      You can't push the ice core because it's glued to the mat.sorry to bust your bubble.


    5. Message by: BOB 10/01/2001 00:32:09 GMT
      Sorry to bust your bubble Ice,
      We have are mat and it came with velcro.


    6. Message by: Amherst Avalanches 10/02/2001 22:06:33 GMT
      I'm guessing that "any part" of the ice core means that since the ice core is made up of LEGO pieces, if any of the pieces become unattached while pulling it out, you still get credit for bringing it back.


      1. Message by: Arctic Angels 10/09/2001 02:35:42 GMT
        I agree. These parts are so tempermental we spend more time fixing pieces rather than concentrating on the Challenge. Our team was under the impression that if any part of it comes back it counts, just like last year.
        --Jenn, Team Arctic Angels


    7. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/09/2001 23:16:52 GMT
      The rules do say that any piece of the ice core braught back to the start will get you the points.


      1. Message by: robocats 10/11/2001 22:24:19 GMT
        I agree. If the rules say part, I don't suppose they mean pull the whole core, do they?


    8. Message by: Unibots 10/11/2001 23:55:33 GMT
      Remember, the core is the clear 2x2 rounds, the blue 2x2 round plates, the axle and the "handle", not the box
      made from 2x4 white bricks which hold the core. Any PART of
      the core making it back to base counts. That covers situations where the movement of the robot causes an inadequately assembled goal to fall apart in transit (like
      the parrot falling off the scientist's buggy last year). If all you get is the handle, you still get the points (though I suspect the scientists on the expedition sitting in the base will be disappointed :-)

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    9. Message by: Ziegler 10/15/2001 05:35:30 GMT
      Peter is right. My students haven't tried for the ice core yet, but I don't see it falling apart. By the way, the "velcro" is actually 3M Dual Lock. It puts velcro to shame. We were able to secure everything with well placed squares. The remainder has been saved for emergencies.


    10. Message by: Silver Salamander 10/20/2001 16:15:04 GMT
      What direction will the handle of the Ice Core be positioned?


    11. Message by: Unibots 10/20/2001 23:11:58 GMT
      Like it shows on the mat, open part of the ring facing the
      front and back wall, ring itself perpendicular to the side
      wall.

      -Peter


Discussion: Weather balloon By: madscientists 10/09/2001 23:18:08 GMT
I am also finding that the weather balloon is not fitting on the playing field with the ice floe. The triggering mechanism gets in the way.

The weather balloon base does fit if the weather base is moved one lego unit on the black base. I don't believe that this is sanctioned, so a check with FIRST seems to be in order.

  1. Message by: madscientists 10/01/2001 01:09:40 GMT
    The first message is in response to a team called "The Difference." I wasn't able to reply in the right spot in the forum, and I haven't found contact info for this team yet.

    I have a request for clarification into FIRST.

    Hoping "The Difference" sees this . . . .

    - Mark, Coach, Team 184 (The Mad Scientists)


    1. Message by: The Difference 10/01/2001 14:36:58 GMT
      Yes, we saw it. We'll watch for that clarification. Thanks. (We also considered modifying the iceberg, or the balloon mechanism, but these things need to be so precise. We're still too nervous to even use our adhesive stuff yet. It's such a big commitment.)

      Thanks again,

      Pati, Coach, team #112, The Difference


      1. Message by: madscientists 10/03/2001 05:13:27 GMT
        Pati,

        From the main forum, see the "Need Challenge Details" message #45 for a layout plan for the adhesive stuff. It seemed to work well this evening. Let me know if you don't find it (beitz@concentric.net).

        - Mark, Coach, team 184


    2. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/01/2001 22:37:24 GMT
      The official word from FLL is that the Weather Balloon base should move one LEGO unit "North" (the direction away from the Ice Platform) from the placement shown on the mat. Note that this is NOT one unit of "clear space" between the Ice Platform and the Weather Balloon mechanism.

      One LEGO unit is easy to measure using the width of one Technic beam. The only thing this really affects is the length of the trigger over the ice, so great precision should not be a concern.

      When I think of the contests last year, where poorly made tables and setup (even at official state tournaments) cost teams many points, I look at this year's table and rejoice. At least we are literally playing on the same field!

      --Jack Gregory


    3. Message by: madscientists 10/03/2001 00:12:40 GMT
      I also have the same clarification from FIRST that Jack Gregory of FIRST Sharon has.

      Scott Evans of FLL plans to post the correction in a Q&A session soon.


    4. Message by: Assembly Required 10/03/2001 02:26:08 GMT
      We don't have any pieces of Technic. Is there anything else we can use to measure "one LEGO unit?

      Assembly Required Coach


    5. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/03/2001 04:43:58 GMT
      You must have pieces of Technics. The entire MindStorms set is Technics!

      Find a 1x2 brick. The "1" is the 1 LEGO unit.

      --Jack Gregory


    6. Message by: Arctic Angels 10/09/2001 02:44:16 GMT
      I feel this year's Challenge is easier than last year's. Does anyone else agree?
      --Jenn, Arctic Angels


    7. Message by: 10/09/2001 02:53:17 GMT
      Deleted


    8. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/09/2001 23:18:08 GMT
      It is easier, but more tasks and should require careful timing to do all the tasks.


Discussion: extra blue bushings& extra 2by2 circles. By: Mad Fishermen 11/10/2001 00:31:32 GMT
what the heak are the extra peices for? our team thinks that they go on the ice floe for water and something else, but what?

  1. Message by: Unibots 10/11/2001 21:58:41 GMT
    The blue stop bushes simulate "water" and go in the small
    hole in the ice floe, the white 2x2 round pieces simulate
    "loose snow" and go in the large square opening in the
    ice floe.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the IceBreakers


    1. Message by: arctic droidz 11/09/2001 18:11:00 GMT
      Can anyone answer this question?? ---

      Did anyone get the weather balloons with their kit?


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 00:31:32 GMT
      No. If you want the "realistic" experience then you can
      get a mylar helium balloon at the store. Put two loops
      in the string, one at the bottom, which hooks onto the
      stationary "finger" at the bottom of the weather balloon
      launcher, the other should go about 1/2 way up the string,
      to load the launcher you coil the string between the
      launcher and the flag and hook the middle loop onto
      the part of the launcher that pops from pointing slightly
      down to pointing up when the launcher is released.

      That way the baloon stays tethered to the launcher but
      it goes up a few feet when the robot releases it.

      -Peter


Discussion: playing field1 By: Mad Fishermen 10/14/2001 19:14:53 GMT
How do you attach the Ice Ridge to the playing field?

  1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/14/2001 19:14:53 GMT
    Hi Mad Fishermen,

    The ice platform is attached to the playing field with the 3M Dual Lock that was included with the mat.

    Mary Kay
    Coach, St. Joe's #1


Discussion: playing field2 By: Mad Fishermen 10/29/2001 20:16:46 GMT
How do you attach the Ice Ridge to the playing field?

  1. Message by: Unibots 10/11/2001 22:00:12 GMT
    with the 3M duel lock that came with your playing field mat

    with the 3M duel lock that came with your playing field mat

    with the 3M duel lock that came with your playing field mat

    with the 3M duel lock that came with your playing field mat

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the IceBreakers


    1. Message by: Mad Fishermen 10/11/2001 22:01:47 GMT
      what is the 3m duel lock


      1. Message by: robocats 10/11/2001 22:08:32 GMT

        THE TAN CLOTH!!!!!!

        IT HAS "DUAL LOCK" ALL OVER THE BACK!!!!!!


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/11/2001 22:07:34 GMT
      With your playing field mat you should have received two sheets of "3M dual lock" which are sheets of tiny plastic
      "pins" which when pressed together stick together like
      velcro, except that unlike velcro both sides are the same. The back side of the sheet is adhesive when you peel off the
      paper backing, and the plastic is clear so you can see through the part you stick to the mat. See the
      "Playing Field" section of the challenge description here:

      http://www.firstlegoleague.org/sitemod/design/layouts/default/index.asp?pid=3800

      For more information.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the IceBreakers


    3. Message by: robocats 10/11/2001 22:20:41 GMT
      Are there two parts of "dual lock" to the set?


    4. Message by: Unibots 10/11/2001 23:58:43 GMT
      Yes, there are two sheets that come with the mat, but the sheets are identical (it's not like velcro with a soft/fuzzy piece and a prickly hook piece) and they press
      together nicely. Each sheet is roughly 9" x 5" I pressed
      both sheets together completely for cutting so that I wound up with two identical pieces from each cut.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    5. Message by: brrrilliant! 10/16/2001 16:51:40 GMT
      We only received one sheet of dual lock. Who do we contact to receive the other?


    6. Message by: madscientists 10/17/2001 04:16:48 GMT
      You can probably survive with one sheet of Dual-Lock for your team's practicing. You'll have to use it more conservatively.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    7. Message by: Santa's Little Helpers 10/29/2001 20:10:57 GMT
      is everything going to be fastened to the board or will it be loose?


    8. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/29/2001 20:16:46 GMT
      Read Playing Field Instructions under Challange 2001 / Playing Field

      http://www.firstlegoleague.org/sitemod/design/layouts/default/index.asp?pid=3800


Discussion: playing field6 By: Mad Fishermen 10/25/2001 05:02:25 GMT
can you show what the play field will look like when its done?

  1. Message by: Unibots 10/11/2001 22:08:38 GMT
    There's a picture in the "missions" section of the challenge 2001 section of this web site.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the IceBreakers


    1. Message by: Flippin Pancakes 10/24/2001 23:58:06 GMT
      Is the medical barrel centered on the tables edge between the to platying fields?

      -Terry
      Coach Flippin Pancakes


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 05:02:25 GMT
      Pancakes -- yes it is. The platform is exactly centered and the barrel sits on the blue 2x plate that straddles
      the centerline between the two tables.

      -Peter


Discussion: Need Challenge Details By: Indian Grove Four 11/21/2001 02:29:33 GMT
I'm hoping some of these questions will be answered when the roll-out mats ship, but meanwhile:
1) Where are the bears positioned? How can we know to avoid them, if we don't know where they are?
2) Are the sensors, ice core, etc. positioned the same way all the time? This is critical to trip flags, pick up the core, etc.
3) What are all the white 2x2 round and blue hub pieces for?
4) Does the weather tower need to go all the way up, or can it just spring up a bit? It seems a bit sticky, so part way deployed is preferable. Alternatively, can we put a second rubber band on it?
5) Are we supposed to have a balloon? Is it helium-filled for the competition?

Thanks,
Joel Finkle, Team 789 Indian Grove School #4

  1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/20/2001 03:46:06 GMT
    1) Where are the bears positioned? How can we know to avoid them, if we don't know where they are?

    JGG: All of the pieces usually have precise positions. I believe the mat is marked for the bear positions.

    2) Are the sensors, ice core, etc. positioned the same way all the time? This is critical to trip flags, pick up the core, etc.

    JGG: Yes, they will be in the same place until you move them.

    3) What are all the white 2x2 round and blue hub pieces for?

    JGG: Who knows? I think they made a mistake. The whole "ice station" area is unused as well.

    4) Does the weather tower need to go all the way up, or can it just spring up a bit? It seems a bit sticky, so part way deployed is preferable. Alternatively, can we put a second rubber band on it?

    JGG: In a competition, you don't have control over the pieces, so you can't add anything. But ours seems to go up OK, so I think careful building allows it to work. If not, the refs will take it into account.

    5) Are we supposed to have a balloon? Is it helium-filled for the competition?

    JGG: I don't know what they plan to do for this. I really, really doubt they are going to have helium filled balloons.

    These are unofficial opinions, just based on experience.

    --Jack Gregory, FIRST Sharon, Sharon, MA


    1. Message by: GLEAPS 09/20/2001 15:47:30 GMT
      Answer to item 4, It hard to see but the PDF does show two rubber bands on it.


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 09/20/2001 19:47:01 GMT
      It appears that the medical supplies will be located over the 2x4 and there will only be one per match and all we have to do is knock it to our side before the other team knocks it to their side. Is this what others think?


      1. Message by: Unibots 09/20/2001 23:04:59 GMT
        I think, given the table specs, that there will be one medical container per table, and a single team works on
        a single table, it's not like previous years where the playing field was 8x8 and cooperation between sides was possible (in 1999 challenge) or deployment of a piece to
        either side was valid (gas sensor in 2000 challenge).

        I could be wrong though... The medical supplies would then straddle TWO 2x4's for two tables abutting one another.

        -Peter
        Peter A. Vogel
        Coach of The Kathryn Hughes Robotics Club
        Fielding 2 teams this year


    3. Message by: Whirlwinds 09/21/2001 04:05:44 GMT
      I think that the medical supply platform will be positioned next to the 2x4's on each playing field so that when tipped, it could go either way. Similiar to last year where the other team could trigger your volcano before you could. What do you think?


    4. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/21/2001 17:29:47 GMT
      As built, the platform won't balance by itself. That means it has to lean on something. But the only thing to lean on is the back wall, which implies there is only one way for it to fall. I consider this an open issue, and hope for enlightenment when the mat arrives.

      As a by-the-way: Last year in Boston, at an official state contest, the two tables on which different teams competed at the same time were not even together. Refs could walk between them. So don't assume anything outside your 4 walls.

      --Jack Gregory


      1. Message by: Bears 09/21/2001 21:37:16 GMT
        Our medical platform balances. Make sure the vertical axles don't stick out the bottom, not even a tiny bit.

        Orrin


    5. Message by: Chata 09/21/2001 19:17:04 GMT
      Hi guys, I am brand new to this whole process, being first introduced when I attended a workshop a couple of weeks before we got our kit. So I really need lots of help! My main question at this point is: I understand that there are 3 rounds, 2 minutes each. I assume this means we can attempt different missions on each round. Or does it mean that everything is set back up and we can attempt to repeat missions we know we can complete such as rescue the 3 scientists all 3 times? I am interpreting the challenge to mean we can receive a total of 340 from all 3 rounds- or is it a possible 340 points PER round?
      THanks,
      Mrs.G


    6. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 09/21/2001 19:30:46 GMT
      Chat,
      I do not know where you got the 3 rounds from. I expect this to work like last year in that you have 2 minutes to accomplish as many of the tasks as you can. That is your score. You will have multiple attempts at this and either the average or lowest might be thrown out. That level of detail ( number of rounds etc.) will be known and might be unique to each tournament. You should count on doing the best score you can in two minutes and try to be consistent about it.


    7. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/21/2001 19:54:16 GMT
      Righteous2 is correct. A Round is 2 minutes, and you can do as many missions as possible, attempting to score the most points, which is 340.

      What happens at a contest, whether there is an elimination, or just high-score wins, seems to be more up to the contest directors. It has never been consistent in my experience.

      --Jack Gregory


    8. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/21/2001 19:58:01 GMT
      Hey guys, I got an update on the Medical Platform. It has a great impact on planning. The platform will straddle the two 2x4s that form the backs of two tables. There is only one platform per pair, and thus only one medical container. And it appears that it is designed such that you have to push down on the leg to tip the platform to your side. Furthermore, you have to hurry, because the other guy is going after it too!

      It is good news that the tables will be adjacent, in my view.

      --Jack Gregory


      1. Message by: icefragments 09/21/2001 20:29:40 GMT
        Hello, Jack. Where did you get this update? Was this information issued on the web page somewhere? This design contradicts the guidelines that a team only needs one 4 I 8 area to practice for the tournament. It also means that tournament directors will need to set up the tables together rather than individual 'half-tables'. This design means major re configuration for those of us who made one table. Hmmm... am Flaherty FL 538


    9. Message by: Chata 09/21/2001 20:39:06 GMT
      Thanks Right.2! I initially thought it was suppose to be only one round, but we got false info on conducting our local tourney that told us it was 3 rounds. This makes much more sense!
      Mrs. G


    10. Message by: Icebreakers 09/21/2001 23:02:11 GMT
      Hi! We're excited! Icebreakers


    11. Message by: GLEAPS 09/21/2001 23:17:30 GMT
      At the Indiana tournament last year it was two minutes per round. The highest score after three rounds (the score is per round) went on to the final 16.


    12. Message by: Chata 09/22/2001 00:13:32 GMT
      Now I'm confused again! Do we compete in 1 or 3 rounds? Is that determined by the competition sites? Are there no set national standards on this? We don't have a state tourney in MS so we are going to TN to participate. Anyone out there from TN please let me know how many rounds there will be at the state competition. Thanks!


    13. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/22/2001 01:45:10 GMT
      >Hello, Jack. Where did you get this update? Was this information issued on the web page somewhere?

      JGG: I asked Scott Evans at FIRST. A "setup instructions" is in process, and will be posted.

      >This design contradicts the guidelines that a team only needs one 4 I 8 area to practice for the tournament.

      JGG: No it doesn't. You practice on your side, just like before. But you will need a short 2x4 to simulate the width of the doubled tables, so the platform can sit properly.

      And, to answer another statement: the medical platform does NOT stand or balance on the legs. Those are in mid-air, and are for your robot to use to tip the medikit to your side.

      >It also means that tournament directors will need to set up the tables together rather than individual 'half-tables'.

      JGG: Yes, but this is the way it should be.

      >This design means major re configuration for those of us who made one table. Hmmm...

      JGG: No, I disagree.

      --Jack Gregory


      1. Message by: icefragments 09/22/2001 06:47:16 GMT
        Having it balance on the 2 x 4 rather than something on the other side makes it all straightforward. We'll be looking forward to the setup instructions. Thanks, Pam Flaherty


    14. Message by: Chata 09/22/2001 10:59:58 GMT
      Seems I don't think well when tired. I get it now- after reading your responses again. It doesn't matter if there is one round or 3 rounds, a team attempts as many missions as possible per round for 340 points possible each time. Scores are then averaged or best score wins- depending on competition site! I'm usually not this dense! Thanks again!


    15. Message by: Chata 09/22/2001 16:34:16 GMT
      After studying all the rules and missions, I have a few questions:
      1) Can the 10 fuel barrels be placed anywhere within the yellow area of the storage hut or must they be put under the overhang (roof)? Where will the initial 5 barrels be placed? Will that be shown on the mat?
      2)I understand that the ice core mission says 'bring any part of the ice core back to base for 40 points' but it also says 'pulling the ice core and bringing it back to base' Does this mean we literally have to pull the ice core out of the ice base or does it mean we can pick up and carry the entire core and base just so part of the core lands on the start base?
      3)When taking ice core or scientists back to base- doe they have to be entirely within the base area or can they be half in half out?
      4)What's up with the balloon? Will we have any idea about the size of the balloon, any directions given at a later date about something to practice with, etc.?
      5) Are the ice station area directions that are available for download the area where we will place the scientists and bears?
      Thanks so much for your insight!
      Mrs. G


    16. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/22/2001 22:00:58 GMT
      Mrs. G:

      >1) Can the 10 fuel barrels be placed anywhere within the yellow area of the storage hut or must they be put under the overhang (roof)?

      Anywhere in or on the yellow containment.

      > Where will the initial 5 barrels be placed? Will that be shown on the mat?

      They are not shown on the map drawing that I was sent. I assume this will be specified in the setup instructions.

      >2)I understand that the ice core mission says 'bring any part of the ice core back to base for 40 points' but it also says 'pulling the ice core and bringing it back to base' Does this mean we literally have to pull the ice core out of the ice base or does it mean we can pick up and carry the entire core and base just so part of the core lands on the start base?

      I believe that if you get any piece of the core back to base, then you get the points. You can pick up (or drag, push, pull) the entire block. However this is not a question I asked; I just assumed it based on experience.

      >3)When taking ice core or scientists back to base- do they have to be entirely within the base area or can they be half in half out?

      The rule for "bringing things back" says that all they have to do is be partially inside.

      >4)What's up with the balloon? Will we have any idea about the size of the balloon, any directions given at a later date about something to practice with, etc.?

      They will publish photos of the setup. The one they sent me showed a small mylar type balloon. I assume it will be tethered to the overhead light on the official tables. But you don't need a balloon to practice the mission at all. Just trigger the mechanism; the balloon won't appreciably change the forces much (and this is a problem mission, in my view -- the trigger is too hard to trip, and hitting it moves the block instead).

      >5) Are the ice station area directions that are available for download the area where we will place the scientists and bears?

      No, they go on an ice floe that is on the far left edge of the table. See the "missions" main web page.

      In case people are upset that I have answers and they don't, let me explain. I asked these (and others) of FLL and was sent answers, along with a table drawing and a photo (jpg). I don't want to publish these without their permission, so I am not, but I am trying to help with what I know. I hope I am helping both FLL and the people asking.

      --Jack Gregory


    17. Message by: Unibots 09/22/2001 22:25:45 GMT
      There is now a jpg of the set up table on the FLL web, though it is pretty low resolution, it does help get
      a "feel" for things.

      -Peter


    18. Message by: Chata 09/23/2001 04:18:02 GMT
      Great help Jack! Thanks so much! Sometimes,I feel overwhelmed at what I don't know. But I'm learning as we go-thanks for your info and patience!!!
      Mrs. G


    19. Message by: biohazards 09/23/2001 23:17:00 GMT
      I have a bunch of extra parts in my kit. I am a veteran team so I got the parts that are needed for this year. I have 3 bags on small blue connectors that go on the end of rods. I also have 2 bags of small white circular parts. Our team has built everything including the barrells. Any ideas what these are for?

      Thanks. Bob


      1. Message by: Bricksters 09/23/2001 23:41:54 GMT
        Regarding the extra pieces--I was taking a close look at one of the pictures of the playing field, and the roundish hole in the ice platform is blue. Perhaps the hubs will fill the hole, simulating a hole with water beneath? The round things could be used to fill the big square open area in the ice station, perhaps simulating broken up ice. Just ideas, I really have no idea. Someone on the forums said that they thought the ice station piece wasn't even being used. I assumed they meant the ice platform. Perhaps I have not hunted through the website enough to discover where this was stated. Any information on the use of the ice platform would be appreciated.

        --Carol, coach of the Bricksters, mighty fourth graders


    20. Message by: Unibots 09/24/2001 00:51:11 GMT
      Looking at the pictures on the web, I think Carol (Bricksters) is right-on, the blue things will go in the hole in the ice station and the white 2x2 round bricks will go in the large square hole in the ice station. The "table setup" instructions are not on the web yet, but Scott Evans of FLL has indicated they are coming soon. While nothing explicitly uses the ice station, it's pretty clear that it will make an "interesting" obstacle for a Robot trying to hug the south wall, even if it doesn't completely foul the robot, it will slow it down, which is probably sufficient given the even tighter schedule and greater number of missions vs. last year.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Robotics Club
      Fielding 2 teams this year


    21. Message by: Indian Grove Four 09/24/2001 05:00:10 GMT
      It's worse than that -- the ice platform is beneath the switch arms for the balloon release and one of the flagged sensors. That means that without some clever robot arm, those pretty much have to be tripped by climbing onto the ice platform.

      Have fun designing locomotion to overcome that.

      * Treads tend to be slow

      * Wheels would need 4WD to make it through, and even then it's tricky


    22. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/24/2001 16:27:06 GMT
      Yes, the cylinders represent "deep snow" and the blue bushings represent "water", and go in the holes in the white "ice base". This area is going to be very tough for a fast robot to cross. Overall, it is a good idea from the planners to put something in the way of the sprint bots, though I would have liked to have seen more points for it.

      --Jack Gregory


    23. Message by: Chata 09/25/2001 00:56:47 GMT
      Hi everyone,Have any of you read page 44 of the Artic Impact Team Manuel, specifically 5.2.8 which says that teams will complete three rounds lasting 2 minutes each and that 'two teams per table will simultaneously demonstrate their robots on each playing field' Does this mean what I think it means? Two teams will try to accomplish missions on the same playing field at the same time?! If so, this throws a lot of new kinks into the formula. For instance, if that medical supply barrel is over 2 tables- does this mean that 4 teams will be competing at a time, 2 on each table set up adjacent to each other? I hesitate to ask any more questions until I find out this answer. Thanks for any insight.
      Mrs. G


    24. Message by: Chata 09/25/2001 01:38:12 GMT
      Hi Jack,
      I did ask about the ice core. According to email from FLL's Scott, the ice core must be removed from the block before bringing back to base. So much for past experience! I'm afraid this challenge is "breaking all the rules!" Hope it helps.
      Mrs. G


    25. Message by: Bricksters 09/25/2001 02:27:43 GMT
      Regarding Chata's message, I'm pretty sure that "two teams per table" means one team on either side of a double table. I can't imagine that two teams would compete on one side of the table.

      --Carol


    26. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/25/2001 05:33:47 GMT
      To all:

      I got word today on the setup of the table. It turns out several of the elements will be attached to the surface (with 3M DualLock, which is like Velcro), and therefore not moveable (by the robot). This includes the Ice Core block. So you really have to pull it out.

      The other elements to be stuck are: The 3 reg instrument flag things, the weather balloon module, the weather tower module, and the Ice Platform itself. This is good, because I was really worried about the high actuation forces on the weather balloon release. Now we can bash it with abandon.

      If we can get there. The setup instructions (which include photos) also show the cylinders and bushings as snow and water, as was earlier mentioned. A robot that can traverse that stuff will not be ideal for racing to the medical supply platform.

      The setup instructions also clearly show the competition setup, with two tables back to back. The only thing both teams can get to is the medical supply platform at the center.

      This setup document should appear on this web site soon. But apparently there are some delays, so be patient. The information is just about out now. And with the mats shipping, we are almost ready to rumble.

      --Jack Gregory


    27. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/25/2001 05:57:19 GMT
      The 5 fuel barrels that start in the Fuel Storage Hut are placed in the bin closest to the base (ship).

      --Jack Gregory


    28. Message by: SpaceLab One 09/25/2001 21:34:38 GMT
      Our team has seen a picture of the ship and have lots of peices left. Where are the instructions for the ship? How come we haven't used a little blue round connecter peice yet?
      Thanks,
      SpaceLab 1


    29. Message by: Unibots 09/25/2001 23:41:45 GMT
      Spacelab-

      The ship is really just an outline on the mat as near
      as I can tell, you don't actually ever build a ship.

      As for the blue stop bushes and the white 2x2 round pieces, those are used to simulate water and deep snow, respectively, and go into the ice-station that you build according to the instructions which can be found on the challenge web site. The ice station is roughly centered along the "south" wall of the playing field, the same wall that the long edge of the ship's outline is against.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Robotics Club


    30. Message by: Columbus 09/27/2001 21:17:20 GMT
      Can you find us the mission to the First Robotics League,please. If not that's okay. We just need the mission because we need to get started on the mission. Thank You For Your Time!


    31. Message by: robocats 09/27/2001 22:13:19 GMT
      Is there any flash photography? That would mess up our light sensors??? :)


    32. Message by: robocats 09/27/2001 22:15:59 GMT
      Is there any flash photography during the competion? That would mess up our light sensors??? :)


    33. Message by: Unibots 09/27/2001 23:30:29 GMT
      robocats - you can almost depend on their being flash photography, not to mention lights from the big video
      camera rigs, etc. at a tournament. You can eliminate
      the effects of ambient light on your light sensors by
      building a shroud around each sensor so that just about
      the only light the sensor sees is the light it produces
      with the red LED. Last year, the shroud my team built
      resulted in the readings from the light sensor being within
      1 even if the room went from completely dark to lit with
      fluorescents + video flood lights + spotlights on the
      table. This year the lighting is more standardised than
      it was last year, so a simple shroud should be more than
      enough to eliminate sensor readings as a variable to be
      majorly concerned about.

      The light from flashbulbs is so quick that it probably wouldn't affect your readings long enough to make your robot
      misperform anyway, but video lights, etc. are of concern.

      -Peter


    34. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 09/28/2001 20:40:57 GMT
      Watch out for some flash photography, the IR used for the flash can erase the program in your RCX. In our tournament, flash photography was prohibited.


      1. Message by: robocats 10/04/2001 21:58:57 GMT
        Do you have any idea if there is any flash photography during this years tournaments??? :)


    35. Message by: Unibots 09/28/2001 21:03:55 GMT
      RI isn't used for a flash, it's used for auto focus, and that RI is a *completely* different frequency from the
      RI used to program your RCX. Do you have some empiracle
      evidence that a camera (flash or otherwise) can corrupt
      the program in an RCX? I use auto focus flash cameras
      and video cameras all the time in a much smaller space
      than a tournament during our practice sessions.

      -Peter


    36. Message by: Skuas 10/01/2001 00:13:16 GMT
      Hi,

      We are very new and I am guessing very late coming into this endeavor. I am assuming that much will come with our registration, upgrade kit and challenge kit. Any ideas on when we will receive them?

      Marie in NC


    37. Message by: Polar Blast 10/01/2001 03:17:38 GMT
      A couple more question have come up since receiving our mat:

      1) Will the Ice Core Handle be set in the same position (Angle) at the start of each round?

      2) There is conflicting information on the mission regarding the fuel barrel value. The challenge details indicate that there are 15 barrels worth 3 points each for a total of 45 (We think this is wrong). The Scoring summary indicates 5 will be in the base to keep track of the no return to base penalty and that 10 will need to be moved to the base and are worth 5 points each or 50 points (This one seems correct to us).

      3) Is there a measurement for where the medical supply platform goes? The picture shows it over the middle lead in the ice.

      4) The rules indicate that we can use the kit parts from previous years. Does this include the table parts?

      THIS IS A GREAT CHALLENGE, THE TEAM IS REALLY THINKING ON THIS ONE!!!


    38. Message by: 10/01/2001 03:18:01 GMT
      Deleted


    39. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/01/2001 03:27:32 GMT
      >1) Will the Ice Core Handle be set in the same position (Angle) at the start of each round?

      Yes. It is shown on the mat, though that is covered when the Ice Core is mounted. The orientation is correct for a straight spear from the base.

      >2) There is conflicting information on the mission regarding the fuel barrel value. The challenge details indicate that there are 15 barrels worth 3 points each for a total of 45 (We think this is wrong). The Scoring summary indicates 5 will be in the base to keep track of the no return to base penalty and that 10 will need to be moved to the base and are worth 5 points each or 50 points (This one seems correct to us).

      They are five points each.

      >3) Is there a measurement for where the medical supply platform goes? The picture shows it over the middle lead in the ice.

      It has to be dead center, otherwise it won't be in the same place for both sides. This is NOT marked on the mat.

      >4) The rules indicate that we can use the kit parts from previous years. Does this include the table parts?

      No. They mean the "update" parts, which are meant to fill in between what you need (such as 3 motors) and what the standard Mindstorms set includes.

      --Jack Gregory


    40. Message by: biohazards 10/01/2001 23:30:38 GMT
      Got my mat today. One end was open by the mail carrier. Was it just the mat and two pieces of velcro?

      Any instructions?

      When will the detailed info be up on the Web site?

      Bob Mutchler
      Biohazards Coach


    41. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/02/2001 05:19:40 GMT
      Hmm. I only got one sheet of the DualLock stuff. And the mat.

      No instructions come with. They said they would be posted, but I have not seen them.

      --Jack Gregory


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/03/2001 17:16:48 GMT
        Jack,

        We don't have our mat yet but I did see some new info about attaching the dual-lock stuff. Here it is:
        http://www.firstlegoleague.org/sitemod/design/layouts/default/index.asp?pid=3800

        Mary Kay
        Coach, St. Joe's, Crescent Springs, KY


    42. Message by: BOB 10/02/2001 05:36:37 GMT
      We also got the mat and one sheet of velcro-like material. Everything is spelled out on the mat as to what goes where.

      We're happy to get the mat, last year it was a bit of pain to take ruler and tape and measure out the field. The mat is nice!

      I assume the velcro is for attaching the pieces to the mat to keep them in place but with the velcro you can easily remove them if you want to roll up the map.

      We like the huge tube it came in, makes cool noises when you blow in it. ;-)


    43. Message by: madscientists 10/03/2001 02:35:08 GMT
      I received two 5.60 x 11.89 inch (142 x 302 mm) sheets of the Dual Lock material. From what I can see, most of both sheets will be needed. A cutting plan to maximze use might also be in order.

      I have not seen a cutting plan from FLL. I have a cutting plan drawn which uses most of the material.

      I will caution you that I haven't tried this plan out yet!! With this caution . . .

      My cutting plan is attached to this message and the next message. When I clicked the attachment, the file opened in a new browser window which can be printed.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    44. Message by: madscientists 10/03/2001 02:37:54 GMT
      The message board allows only one attachment per message, so here is the other file.

      On the drawings, each area is marked for where it would be used. A blank area means that that are would not be used.

      I plan to post what I thought of this cutting plan after I cut and apply the material.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


      1. Message by: Indian Grove Three 10/03/2001 20:57:40 GMT
        Madscientists, just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to create the Dual Lock Layout sheet attachement.
        -- Nancy, Coach, The Ice Sharks - Indian Grove Three


      2. Message by: Bolton 1 10/13/2001 15:46:52 GMT
        The layouts are really helpful, but I have a question. Did anyone else receive two sheets of the same material? In other words, I have two identical sheets of the "hook" side of the fastener material, but no "fuzzy" side. There's no way they can be used that I can see. Does anyone else have this?

        Coach Vicki from Bolton


        1. Message by: madscientists 10/13/2001 23:46:40 GMT
          Re: Bolton 1 - TeknoBots, Message #64

          The Dual Lock material is somewhat different than hook and loop fastener. Two pieces of Dual Lock that are firmly pressed together gets the pins to interlock and the parts to stick to the board. You do not need the "fuzzy" loop material.

          - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    45. Message by: madscientists 10/03/2001 04:58:53 GMT
      I have now spent a few hours cutting and pasting for the dual lock plan in my messages above (02:35 am Oct 3, 2001 and 02:37 am Oct 3, 2001). Generally, the layout works well. A couple of changes:

      On sheet 1, use the pieces marked for the pier for the west end of the ice floe pool. North is defined as the direction the pier is pointing.

      On sheet 2, I would recommend that the areas marked as "west end of ice floe pool" and the long unused area be cut differently for use on the ice platform pier. Cut two 23 x 224 mm pieces for the pier from this area.

      It's getting late, so any redrawing of the layouts will have to wait for another night.

      Some pointers in cutting:

      1. The Dual Lock backing is resistant to both ball point pen and pencil. A Sharpie marker barely leaves a mark. I relied on the metal end of a mechanical pencil (all lead inside) to scratch the surface of the backing to make marks.

      2. For sheet 1, I recommend cutting the 16 mm wide strips on the long edge first. I would then follow this by cutting the weather tower piece. I would then cut the area for the west edge of the ice floe pool, then the area for the flags and the weather balloon bases.

      3. For sheet 2, I recommend cutting the 16 mm wide strips on the long edge first. I would then follow this by cutting the weather tower piece. I would then cut the strip for the ice core pieces, then the ice core ramp pieces, then the pier pieces.

      4. There is little forgiveness once the Dual Lock material is pressed against the playing field. Make sure the pieces are lined up before pressing the Dual Lock material on the roll up sheet.

      5. The ice core pieces go around the base of the ice core just like Lego bricks. There is no Dual Lock material in the center hole.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


      1. Message by: LIRC 10/23/2001 05:50:12 GMT
        Thanks for the guide sheets. Your work saved us a ton of time and the field came out great.


    46. Message by: Columbus school 10/04/2001 21:20:58 GMT
      Our group is new to this mission and we have a whole bunch of questions to ask,but I don't know how to phase any of them. I want to ask HOW you can get the thing you place the medical supplys are put?
      Also I want to know how to avoid the bears? Also what is up with the new instrument? Please give us
      the infomaton we need to begin the mission!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank You For you time.

      Ashley Jackson-Bulldogs-Columbus pennslyvania


    47. Message by: robocats 10/04/2001 22:11:52 GMT
      How do we present a hypothesis question? Do we just do research about the changing climate and tell them if we think the storm is about global warming or not?


    48. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/05/2001 00:18:04 GMT
      Columbus School,
      Avoid the bears, do not go near them. You only have to have the robot touching the ice block (defined by the thick black lines) and one of your players picks up the scientist and places them on your robot, then your robot must get them to the base.

      Medical supply - if you press down on the bar, the medical supply will roll into your field. That is all you have to do is get the medical supply on your side of the table. You do not have to retreive the contraption it lies on. You can also just swat it bact to your side.

      Advise - you will not have time to do all the tasks individually. You will have to do them in some sort of grouping.


    49. Message by: TennFLL 10/06/2001 14:37:57 GMT
      There will be two playfields sitting back-to-back. The medical supply gear rests on top of the two 2x4s that make up the back walls. Teams should plan their strategy carefully for this mission because it is possible to push the medical supplies into the opposing playfield. There will only be one medical supply drum shared between the two playfields.


    50. Message by: Frost Attack 10/09/2001 03:37:06 GMT
      Okay
      These rookies want to know what software uses ".WMF" for file names. We haven't been able to open the instructions for attaching the pieces to the mat.

      Russell, COACH


    51. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/09/2001 23:09:14 GMT
      I just clicked on them and they opened up in a new browser window. The wmf extension usually refers to a windows meta file.


    52. Message by: madscientists 10/10/2001 05:45:16 GMT
      Russell, I tested the posting after I put it in and was **really** grateful that I had a new browser window open as well. Given the wide variety of computer set-ups and settings available, you may not be opening a new browser window when you try to open these files.

      If you are still having trouble opening the pictures, drop me an e-mail at beitz@concentric.net. I can either 1) copy these files into a MS Word document and send them for your printing or 2) hopefully convert them to some other type of picture file more useful to you (probably .gif).

      If that fails, there's the fax machine option . . . . ;-)

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    53. Message by: Moe Knows 10/12/2001 01:35:28 GMT
      MoeKnows wants to know...
      Do you compete with another team for the medical supplies?

      When you are supposed to drop off the new instrument, can it be on its side, or does it have to be standing up?

      Thanks-
      Melissa Fox


    54. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/12/2001 02:15:41 GMT
      See Message #2 under Forum, Challenge & Playfield, Medical Supply.

      The new instrument can be any which way it ends up.


    55. Message by: biohazards 10/13/2001 20:37:01 GMT
      I am having trouble following a line and doing this in a fast way. We are using the robot design on the web site that has only rear wheels. It turns very quickly, in fact, too quickly, and goes too much back and forth. How can I better glide along the line and go faster? Any ideas?

      Bob - Team 170 Biohazards


    56. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/14/2001 22:16:10 GMT
      biohazards, There are many ways to follow the line, the default one of turning off one motor and turning on the other motor is only one way. Some of the other methods don't turn off a motor and only lower the power. One method uses a go forward with both motors when on black and switches between left and right turns at other times (assumes that you will criss cross the line). Experiment and try letting the kids think about if they were the robot, how would they follow a line using simple commands.


    57. Message by: Panthers 10/15/2001 16:16:14 GMT
      Biohazards,

      Most of the successful line followers my students have made have had two motors powering the FRONT wheels with the sensor between them. This way changing motor speed to turn does not cause such huge swings of the vehicle. Good luck. I'd love to see what you finish with.

      Kevin Barnard


    58. Message by: biohazards 10/17/2001 02:00:43 GMT
      Thanks for the tips on following the line. I will try front wheel drive rather than rear wheel. I tried changing the power on one side versus the other, but that did not make enough difference, whereas turning a motor off and on turned too much.

      Bob Mutchler


    59. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 18:07:41 GMT
      On the mat they show where everything is supposed to be placed. They labeled the ice core, weather balloon, weather tower, flags, and etc. It's hard not to tell where they're susposed to be.


    60. Message by: TBA 11/21/2001 02:29:33 GMT
      it just has to be up a bit


    61. Message by: GMT


Discussion: Playfield Hints and Thoughts By: Indian Grove Four 11/09/2001 06:59:24 GMT
I received an e-mail from our Motorola liaison (they're sponsoring a number of Illinois teams) that had an MS Word attachment with some details on the playfield layout.

* Scientists are in a group of three near the west wall. The bears are east of them, closer to the border of the ice block.

* The balloon release device and one of the instruments to flag are adjacent to the ice platform -- with their manipulator arms entirely over the ice platform. This raises some new challenges:
-- do you reach over the edge of the platform?
-- do you try to cross the 'open water' (blue axles) and 'loose ice' (white cylinders) in the holes in the platform?

(I'm considering firing a projectile at 'em.)

* Many of the other devices are against or near walls, meaning you should be able to get a good push against them, if needed.

(Am I the only one thinking it might be easier to pick up the ice block, rather than extract the core?)

Now for a question: Has anyone ever seen an algorithm in RIS or Robolab for following branching lines (take the second left)?

  1. Message by: Unibots 09/22/2001 01:02:58 GMT
    If you use both light sensors to follow the line, then
    you can recognize the branches pretty easily and choose
    which one to follow when.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Robotics Club


    1. Message by: MVRT115 10/15/2001 06:21:46 GMT
      the ice core is glued down, so you gotta use a lefting mechanism to do that mission. and good luck building a gun out of legos. even with rubber bands the best you can get is mabye a throwing arm. i say just dig right into the 'open water' and 'loose ice' with treads. just have 'removable' touch senser devise that hits the ground when you get off the ice.

      *removable as in you can switch it with something else in base.


      1. Message by: Arctic Angels 10/16/2001 01:18:36 GMT
        Our team is using wheels for everything but the ice floe. We plan to return to base where we will replace the wheels for treads.
        --Jenn,Arctic Angels


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/17/2001 01:36:56 GMT
      That's interesting, I was experimenting the other day
      on my 2nd table at home (none of the team there to see :-)
      and I found that treads DON'T WORK to get onto the ice
      floe, the front part of the tread gets onto the floe,
      and then the treads just slip across the floe, the
      rear and center of the tread never gets onto the
      floe. I found a 4wd does very well on the ice floe,
      the water and the loose snow.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and Icebreakers


      1. Message by: Botcats 10/24/2001 16:30:59 GMT
        Right, we found out the same thing about the treds, they are not a sure thing on the loose peices. We did a robot to cross it with the big skinny tires! It's a fast one modeled after the Acrobot (sp?) in the Constructopedia.

        Good Luck All.


    3. Message by: madscientists 10/17/2001 04:33:29 GMT
      I'm looking forward to how teams answer the ice platform question. I'll bet that there will be some interesting design diversity amongst robots -- something I think is one of the best parts of any tournament!

      -- Mark, Coach, Team 184


    4. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/17/2001 19:47:33 GMT
      Some will choose not to even go over the ice platform or only part of it.


    5. Message by: Frostbyte 11/09/2001 06:59:24 GMT
      Re Treds: Our team was able to build treds that would consistently go over the ice, but they were slow. Now they are thinking that they might not go over it at all.


Discussion: Medical Box By: Arctic Thunders 10/20/2001 20:12:46 GMT
Greetings from New Hampshire. My team wants to know where the medical box thingy goes...please help us out.

  1. Message by: Unibots 09/25/2001 23:47:01 GMT
    Straddling the "North" long wall rougly centered. When you get the mat, it will be quite clear where it goes.

    -Peter


    1. Message by: Polar People 10/10/2001 01:15:30 GMT
      How us the thing that holds the medical barrel up stand up?


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/10/2001 01:18:41 GMT
      Polar People -

      It doesn't stand on its own, it sits on the walls between
      two playing fields -- if you only have one playing field,
      put another 2x4 along the back wall so that the platform sits on both 2x4's so that the height of the platform is
      right for you in practice.

      -Peter


    3. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/11/2001 18:36:26 GMT
      Actually, the position is not printed on the mat. But it HAS to be dead-center, otherwise it won't be in the same place for each side. So measure it out and mark it.

      --Jack Gregory


    4. Message by: 10/12/2001 00:07:30 GMT
      Deleted


    5. Message by: TBA 10/20/2001 20:12:46 GMT
      Hey fellow NH this is Hugslyscot a londonderry, NH. the thing go's on the black line on the edge between the tower and the hut

      Hugslyscot from NH


Discussion: Medical Box By: Arctic Thunders 10/12/2001 00:24:00 GMT
Greetings from New Hampshire. My team wants to know where the medical box thingy goes...please help us out.

  1. Message by: Hillside Ice 09/27/2001 21:15:58 GMT
    There will be two playing feilds active at the same time.The medical box gose at the edge of the two.

    -Jon


    1. Message by: Hancock Elementary 10/05/2001 23:03:15 GMT
      Re: hillside ice/ medical box

      I don't see how there will be two mats side by side in such a manner that the medical box will border both of them.

      I can see if it were on the edge of the map, but between two playing fields? -- it just doesn't make sense.

      Does anyone else have an interpretation of this item?

      - Andy Zobro


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/06/2001 04:04:19 GMT
        Hi Andy,

        There's a picture at this site that might help:
        www.firstlegoleague.org/sitemod/design/layouts/default/index.asp?pid=3800

        Mary Kay
        Coach, St. Joe's #1, Crescent Springs, KY


        1. Message by: Hancock Elementary 10/09/2001 18:36:46 GMT
          thank you VERY much for the link. It really cleared things up.

          - AZ


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/06/2001 02:58:00 GMT
      The platform it sits on (white plate with blue 2x4 plate
      in center) straddles the 2x4 field walls of two fields
      placed side-by-side.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Elementary Robotics Club


    3. Message by: 10/12/2001 00:24:00 GMT
      Deleted


Discussion: The Ice core By: frostybots 10/31/2001 09:30:37 GMT
Does the ice core black loop on the top stay upright? Ours seems to drop forward. If it stays uprigt as in the picture it would be easy to lift it of the ice block.
Please help!

  1. Message by: APACHE 10/01/2001 20:48:30 GMT
    Take a look at the "T" shaped piece you used at the base of the ring. There is a kind with a hole through the "T" portion and one with a "+ " shaped hole that will lock the axle. Use the one with the "+" shape hole and the ring will stand up.
    Tom Kleinschmidt
    Adult lead team Apache


    1. Message by: APACHE 10/01/2001 20:49:46 GMT
      Take a look at the "T" shaped piece you used at the base of the ring. There is a kind with a hole through the top of the "T" and one with a "+ " shaped hole that will lock the axle. Use the one with the "+" shape hole and the ring will stand up.
      Tom Kleinschmidt
      Adult lead team Apache

      Corrected


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/01/2001 20:50:22 GMT
      It stays upright, make sure you are using a Black peg,
      not a grey one to hold the top of the loop together, and
      make sure the flexi tubes are pushed all the way onto
      either side of the axle, its a 4 stud long axle, so you
      should have 1.5 stud spaces on either side of the
      perpendicular axle connector.

      -Peter


    3. Message by: TBA 10/20/2001 19:48:55 GMT
      Yeah it sould be standing up right you might have one of pieces wrong.

      Londonderry team member
      Hugslyscot


    4. Message by: 10/20/2001 19:49:43 GMT
      Deleted


    5. Message by: TBA 10/20/2001 19:52:54 GMT
      It should stand up right check if you have pieces right.

      Londonderry,NH Member
      Hugslyscott


    6. Message by: Corning Computes 10/20/2001 23:57:20 GMT
      What is the orientation of the loop relative to the side of the table. Parallel? Perpendicular?
      Other?


    7. Message by: Unibots 10/21/2001 08:58:28 GMT
      Like it shows on the mat, perpendicular to the "east" and "west" sides of the table, opening facing the base.

      -Peter


    8. Message by: Arctic Dolphins 10/31/2001 09:30:37 GMT
      We had the same problem with the loop falling down. Check your parts...the loop stays upright if you use the correct part that joins the bottom of the loop with the vertical piece that holds the ice core.


Discussion: How big is the base? By: Indian Grove Four 10/02/2001 01:51:30 GMT
We still haven't received our mat, and we're starting to construct 'bots that actually do more than just the training missions.

But I need to know what kind of space we have in the Base Ship area on the mat: how big is that space, so I know what limits we have on 'bot size, what directions it can be positioned, etc.

If you have the mat, I could really use three measurements: Total length of the base ship, widest width, and length of the wide section, before it starts curving in.

Thanks
Joel -- Indian Grove Four Coach

  1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/01/2001 22:26:23 GMT
    The base is a ship-bow shaped thing that is about 12 inches wide and 27 inches from the bow to the rightmost wall.

    It is larger than in past years, so should not be an overriding concern to you at this point.

    --Jack Gregory


    1. Message by: Indian Grove Four 10/02/2001 01:51:30 GMT
      Thanks
      12 inches is bigger than our bots are likely to be, and still let us 'launch' from a crosswise position in the 'boat'.

      Joel


Discussion: Fuel barrel location By: Frostbyte 11/08/2001 22:02:06 GMT
Where on the mat do the fuel barrels go?

Frostbyte

  1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/02/2001 05:16:35 GMT
    Five barrels start in the closest-to-base section of the hut. The other 10 start in the base, and must be taken to the hut (any section) by the robot.

    You get 5 points for every barrel in or on the hut at the end of the round.

    --Jack Gregory


    1. Message by: Arctic Avant-garde 11/08/2001 20:50:19 GMT
      Can you have the barrels preloaded or does the robot have to pick them up and transport them.


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/08/2001 22:02:06 GMT
      You can preload the barrels, since the barrels start out in the base and you can do anything you want to get the robot ready for its next mission, including loading it.

      Think of it this way: there are humans in the base, so they
      can get a robot ready to go out of the base. Once the robot has left the base, it's on its own and must do
      everything by itself. If you have to go and get it, that
      means a human had to leave the base with some kind of
      vehicle to tow the robot home, so you lose fuel (points)
      when you do that.

      You are allowed to load the scientists out on the ice
      because, once again, they are human and can get themselves
      onto the robot (presumably the robot (when you consider how
      big it is relative to the people) startles the bears enough
      to allow the scientists time to make a run for the robot.

      On all the other missions, there's no human available to
      help, so the robot has to do it all on its own!

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: dual lock By: Frostbyte 10/09/2001 03:10:28 GMT
What parts are we supposed to secure on the mat with the 3m dual lock?

  1. Message by: Chata 10/03/2001 19:47:28 GMT
    Frostbyte,
    Check out the Playing Field Instructions link on the www.legomindstorms.com/flll home page. It lists 3 field instruments, 1 balloon release, 1 weather tower, 1 ice core block, 1 ice platform. Lots of other info as well.
    Mrs. G.


    1. Message by: madscientists 10/03/2001 23:40:50 GMT
      Also see messages #41.1 and #45 in "Need Challenge Details" in the main forum for tips on applying the Dual Lock material.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    2. Message by: madscientists 10/09/2001 03:10:28 GMT
      The messages were renumbered. The new message numbers in challenge details at #51 and #52.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


Discussion: fuel hut By: Frostbyte 11/17/2001 07:30:52 GMT
Is the fuel hut supposed to be secured to the mat? If not, is the team supposed to move the hut, and if so, where?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/05/2001 00:02:50 GMT
    Yes, you are supposed to move the hut off the black line that represents a lead (crack in ice). The hut touches the lead in the upper left side of the hut. You only have to move it about 1/2" to get it off the lead. You only have to do this to get 10 points.


    1. Message by: Penguinators 10/12/2001 23:16:45 GMT
      Wait... that thing is HEAVY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Have you tried to use a weak robot on it?? I don't know what would happen.....


    2. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 18:21:00 GMT
      We have a weak robot and we moved it.


    3. Message by: FireStorm 11/17/2001 05:32:04 GMT
      If the robot moves the hut off the lead in one mission but then in a subsequent mission pushes it back on, do you loose the 10 points you received for pushing it off the lead?


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/17/2001 07:30:52 GMT
      Points for the shed are assessed at the end of the round
      so if the round ends and the shed is on a lead, no 10
      points.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: medical supply barrel holder By: Frostbyte 10/12/2001 00:04:43 GMT
Is the medical supply barrel "holder" secured to the 2 x 4's?

  1. Message by: Unibots 10/05/2001 02:06:10 GMT
    No it just sits there, so that you can, for example, press on the horizontal axle on your side and make the whole platform tilt toward your side.

    -Peter


    1. Message by: TennFLL 10/06/2001 14:21:19 GMT
      Be careful. If you push it, you might give the other team the points.


    2. Message by: 10/12/2001 00:04:43 GMT
      Deleted


Discussion: Fuel Barrels By: Rockin' Robots 2 10/09/2001 23:06:00 GMT
We haven't gotten our kit yet but we would like some information. How big are the fuel barrels? Can you rubber band them together with a rubber band from the kit?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/08/2001 19:44:24 GMT
    In the past, you were able to use additional parts from your kit to help you acheive your task. So I would think you would be able to use a rubber band. You should have gotten your kit, you may want to phone and find out when you will be getting it. Some people were confused about what to order and did not order the right kit, so you should check.


    1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/09/2001 19:12:49 GMT
      This is a good question. If I were a judge, I would probably not allow it. The reasoning is that you are changing the problem. You have 10 barrels to move. If you build something that changes that into two boxes, then I think you have changed the problem.

      This is not an official opinion, of course, so I will ask the official answer man and report back.

      --Jack Gregory


    2. Message by: Arctic Thunder 10/09/2001 20:36:59 GMT
      to answer the question about the size they are about 1 inch.
      -Nicki of the Arctic Thunders (Blue was a temperary name)


    3. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/09/2001 23:06:00 GMT
      Last year we were able to add components to the gas sensor like rubber bands that helped it to not slide down the volcano and that was encuraged by the judges. Once one person did it everyone did it. It changed the problem, but was within the limits of the game.


Discussion: field instrument trip direction By: CC 4th Grade 10/24/2001 20:08:09 GMT
We have noticed that the field instrument flags can be tripped in one direction or the other. This depends upon which side the trip lever is placed respective to the band attached to the flag. The band prevents the trip from rotating through. Looking down from the top, is the trip supposed to rotate clockwise or counterclockwise? The first page of the flag assembly instructions shows a flag that looks like it has been tripped by rotating it counterclockwise. Should we take this as a clear indication on the direction?

  1. Message by: icecats3 10/08/2001 22:32:00 GMT
    We have tried it several times, and it appears to work best when being tripped clockwise. That is what we are hoping for. We would like clarification also. If that is the case, then a robot could go straight across the ice floe from base and trip both the flag and the balloon.

    Lowell T. Ziegler
    774, 775, 776, 1259, 1260 (yes, 5 teams, but I have help with two of them)


    1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/09/2001 19:00:37 GMT
      I read these and don't understand how you could conclude anything other than clockwise. You have to build them EXACTLY as shown in the instructions, or it is not a valid piece.

      --Jack Gregory


    2. Message by: CC 4th Grade 10/11/2001 14:06:44 GMT
      We went back and tripple checked the way we put together the field instruments. It turns out we had assumed that the flag was in the center of the shaft, when in fact according to the instructions it is located to one side. After doing this, there is only one way it can rotate - clockwise! Thanks - I remember now what Benny Hill said happens when you assume!

      Dennis
      Artic Angels


    3. Message by: Joanne 10/23/2001 00:56:20 GMT
      After numerous attempts we have found that if hit with speed the flags can be tripped in both directions. it would make the most sense to trip the clockwise which is the easier way, but when returing from a mission it is possible to trip them counterclockwise.


    4. Message by: brrrilliant! 10/24/2001 20:08:09 GMT
      Just to clarify: The way our instrument is designed, the red 'base' that is attached to the lever/trip arm is holding the flag down by preventing the "L" shaped 'base' of the flag from rotating. The base of the lever is braced up against the base of the flag (and also touching the rubber band of the flag).

      Does that sound right? Did we follow the directions correctly?

      Thanks for the input.


Discussion: The balloon By: Arctic Angel2 11/18/2001 20:11:06 GMT
What are other teams using for balloons for trial runs.

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/11/2001 19:14:18 GMT
    You do not need an actual balloon for trial. You only have to activate the mechanism for releasing the balloon. If you want the balloon for show, then use a large helium filled mylar balloon from the store with a cotton string on it tied to the mechanism outlined in the playing field section of the main menu.


    1. Message by: roboscouts 10/22/2001 19:08:42 GMT
      We are using a mylar baloon from Wal-Mart. The team really enjoys releasing the baloon and watching it get caught in the ceiling fan!


    2. Message by: Frostbyte 11/18/2001 20:11:06 GMT
      What size balloon are you using?


Discussion: The Scientists By: St. Joseph #1 11/07/2001 22:46:59 GMT
Does anyone have an idea if the team can put the scientist on the base using their hands if the robot is on the base? Or do we have to find a way to put it there? There has been some discussion between members anything would help..

  1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/13/2001 02:54:22 GMT
    You can take them out of the robot after they cross the line. If this doesn't answer your question, try to be more specific.

    --Jack Gregory


    1. Message by: bossbots 10/15/2001 19:50:43 GMT
      our team is confused about the "iceberg" that appears to be where the scientists and the polar bears are placed (in the missions picture), but then there is a designated square for each of them on the playing field. Are we missing a piece that should be an iceberg? Also, why are there five scientists? We would appreciate info regarding this mission. thanks, Bossbots


      1. Message by: Robonoles 10/16/2001 19:00:36 GMT
        two of them belong on the weather tower


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/16/2001 20:05:27 GMT
      You have good eyes. It would have been nice for this to have appeared in some official document rather then a photo.

      The "iceberg" is the area defined by the "leads" (black lines) on the playing field.


    3. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/17/2001 02:27:11 GMT
      I think the scientists on the weather tower (in the picture) are a joke. Without a mention of them in the setup instructions or rules, I would say they are extra. But that weather tower does sometimes seem to need some weight...

      --Jack Gregory


    4. Message by: Concord Hotspots 10/17/2001 21:13:23 GMT
      Do we really put scientists on the weather tower?


    5. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 18:12:52 GMT
      When you first get to where the scientists are located, you can manually put them onto the robot, but you CANNOT tpuch the robot, and if you harm(knock over) a polar bear you'll lose 10 points per polar bear. So if you knock over both polar bears you'll lose 20 points. Does that answer your question about the scientists? I tried answering the best I could.


    6. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 22:46:59 GMT
      It's actually -10 for one or both polar bears, if you
      kill them both it's just like killing one: -10 points.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Hints For New Instrument Mission By: Arctic Thunder 10/29/2001 20:10:01 GMT
Anyone have some hints or ideas about the "New Instrument Mission"?
-Nicki of the Arctic Thunders (Blue was a temperary name)

  1. Message by: randydarden 10/24/2001 01:07:08 GMT
    Well, one of the leads on the playing field mat, while it doesn't reach into the 'target area' for delivering the new instrument, does point toward the center of the target area. Perhaps the robot could follow that lead until it's end (and perhaps keep going?).


    1. Message by: Joanne 10/27/2001 20:10:31 GMT
      we have found that following a line can be kind of slow. what about having the robot find the line every few second and then go from there


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/29/2001 20:10:01 GMT
      Some algorithms are slow and some are fast. You should find what is right for you. If you only need to find the line every few seconds, then that is what works for you. Everyone will solve this differently, that's what makes this an exciting competition, no two will be alike. Think about it, 2,000 teams all doing it differently. Can you think of 2,000 different ways of doing it? Just remember, there is no right or wrong way of doing it, just do it.

      --Dave Kolberg


Discussion: Starting By: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/17/2001 05:19:46 GMT
Discussion on topics about starting the match

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 09/25/2001 19:56:53 GMT
    Does anyone know if we will be able to start the match with the fuel barrels on the robot?


    1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/25/2001 20:25:24 GMT
      Yes, for any trip out of the base, including the first one, you can pre-load whatever you want before you hit the run button. So you can switch arms, bins, hooks, etc.

      But after the starting bell of course, the switching takes precious mission time.

      --Jack Gregory


      1. Message by: raiders 10/03/2001 01:20:52 GMT
        Wait, now I'm confused. We presumed that once the round was started, there was 2 minutes and that was it. Are you saying that everytime you return to base, the timer stops until you start it again?


    2. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/03/2001 04:47:23 GMT
      No. I said after the starting bell, the timer is running, and if you are fooling around in the base, then you are using up your 2 minutes to do missions.

      Some amount of loading and unloading in the base is necessary, but you don't have time to do anything very complicated.

      --Jack Gregory


    3. Message by: HARC Hornets 10/13/2001 16:53:22 GMT
      Does anyone know the difference between start, base and the ship?


    4. Message by: madscientists 10/13/2001 23:49:02 GMT
      Re: HARC Hornets - 04:53pm Oct 13, 2001 (# 5)

      There is no difference between base, the ship, and the start point for the round.

      - Mark , Coach, Team 184


    5. Message by: HARC Hornets 10/17/2001 05:19:46 GMT
      Thank you Coach Mark


Discussion: base for the ice core By: Arctic Thunders 11/07/2001 18:16:20 GMT
Is the base for the ice core physicaly attached to the playing field?

  1. Message by: Unibots 09/25/2001 23:48:48 GMT
    It is my understanding that yes, it will be attached with a velcro-like substance, along with the field instruments (the red flags), the weather tower, and the weather balloon launcher.

    -Peter


    1. Message by: MVRT115 10/15/2001 06:23:56 GMT
      your best bet with the ice core mission is a 'fork lift' kinda thing


    2. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 18:16:20 GMT
      Our team has built an arm to lift it up. And then we programmed it to get the 2 flags near the ice core and the fuel barrel hut and go back to the base.


Discussion: Medical Box Strategies By: Arctic Thunder 10/12/2001 00:05:45 GMT
anyone like to share their strategies on getting the medical box?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/05/2001 00:07:57 GMT
    Not likely. There will be many stratagies. I would suggest you try out several yourself and find one that is reliable and hope you get there first.


    1. Message by: 10/12/2001 00:05:26 GMT
      Deleted


    2. Message by: 10/12/2001 00:05:45 GMT
      Deleted


Discussion: New Instrument By: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 18:05:10 GMT
Does anyone know if we could go into the target and drop it into the 3?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 18:05:10 GMT
    Absolutely! Your robot may go anywhere on the playing field in order to accomplish your missions.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers



Folder: How to delete the RCX? 11/13/2001 10:43:39 GMT
We have a problem with our RCX, how to delete the RCX??

Discussion: Blanking the RCX By: Unibots 11/13/2001 10:43:39 GMT
Take the batteries out and keep them out for at least
2 minutes.

-Peter
Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Folder: Hypothesis 11/26/2001 21:54:14 GMT
All you need to know about the hypothesis presentation.


Folder: JASON Project and Research 10/19/2001 15:15:01 GMT
This folder is for discussion related to the JASON Project and Research topics.

Discussion: JASON alternatives By: BOB 10/18/2001 00:53:09 GMT
2 of our team mentors had signed up for JASON project training at Johnson Space Center in Houston. But because of the events of 9-11, JSC is now closed to the public and they cancelled the rest of their teacher trainings.

They've had no word about if and when it would be rescheduled and have not been successful with getting the materials without the training.

How many of you are doing JASON in conjunction with FLL? Did it really help you with the challenge?

What other resources are good alternatives for the research part of the FLL if you are not doing JASON?

thanks.

  1. Message by: icefragments 10/02/2001 16:07:15 GMT
    I went to Jason training and I know of two other teams who have done the same. I wouldn't sweat it if I were you. If you had to pay anyway, I think you can get the materials through the Jason online link for homeschoolers. I'm not sure I would pay that much again. I requested a message board in the gated community of Jason and got the 'cold shoulder'. Pam in Virginia


    1. Message by: Ziegler 10/15/2001 05:00:31 GMT
      I did not sign up for JASON. A co-worker did, and said she'd share the material. I will let you know if it helps.


    2. Message by: Archer Lego Girls 10/18/2001 00:53:09 GMT
      We are doing JASON in conjunction with LEGO League this year. It is turning out wonderfuly. Even during building the parts of the playing field, kids are relating their knowledge of diffent types of sea ice to the lego building. If you choose not to do JASON, you can still do a research unit on global climate change, the satellite SEAWifS (NASA website has great stuff on this), and prepare the kids in that way.


Discussion: What is JASON? By: Skuas 10/19/2001 15:15:01 GMT
I came across a reference to JASON in another area. What is JASON?

Marie Hopper

  1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/14/2001 21:22:57 GMT
    Marie,

    Others will be more knowledgeable on this subject than I but here's a start: www.jasonproject.org

    Mary Kay
    Coach, St. Joe's #1


    1. Message by: Alpengeist 10/19/2001 15:15:01 GMT
      JASON Projects have been the basis for past challenges, but this year is based on SHEBA--Surface Heat Budget of the Arctic--and involves the Office of Naval Research.



Folder: Missing parts 11/19/2001 09:23:51 GMT



Folder: YES, WE HAVE NO LEGOS 10/16/2001 19:37:40 GMT
We went to the tournament last year in Pittsburgh and had a terrific time. We have even recruited enough to multiply our team, the Mindstorm Marauders, into two teams this season.

Unfortunately, when we registered, there were no more "2001 Challenge Kits" availible. If there is any one in the Central New York State area that has a kit, we would appreciate the opportunity to speak with you about somehow borrowing it during the part of the week you're not using it. One of our coaches at Corning, has been able to produce two mats for us, but we still don't have the lego pieces.

We are in Horseheads, NY . . . near Elmira, Corning, Ithica and even Binghamton is only 1 hour away. We are also only 20 miles from the PA border north of Canton.

If you are somewhat close please e-mail me or call

brucells4j@juno.com 607-739-7168 (work, days)
607-739-2370 (home, nights)

Your help is greatly appreciated.

God bless you,

Bruce Lyman

Discussion: We Need A Mat and Parts - Help Connecticut!! By: TechnoTigers 11/19/2001 09:28:49 GMT
Due to a purchase order mess-up, we are two teams without a mat or parts. Can anyone let us buy a mat and parts from them? We would be eternally grateful!!!! Call the school at 860-434-2568 or email our coaches at bnidz@aol.com. Please help us out!!!!

  1. Message by: Adams eTek Eagles 10/15/2001 21:34:34 GMT
    we don't even have our kits yet--anyone else have this problem?


    1. Message by: Skuas 10/16/2001 00:40:58 GMT
      We have not received anything yet, either.
      Marie Hopper


    2. Message by: vikings 10/16/2001 23:07:42 GMT
      We have 5 or so schools in Fort Collins Colorado that aer waiting for kits too. There seems to be a logistics problem at First and Dacta.
      We have heard that the kits are in the mail for the lastweek or so. Let's hope for arrival soon.


    3. Message by: tams1 10/18/2001 05:00:45 GMT
      We don't have ours yet either. We only ordered one challenge kit for two teams. went to order the other and was told they were all sold out? How can you sell more kits than teams??


    4. Message by: BOB 11/10/2001 06:28:10 GMT
      That's something to put in the feedback section. They had a limit of so many teams that could register this year, so that's how many kits they should have had. Not sure why they didn't.

      This was not a problem last year. I don't recall any teams talking about not gettting kits. There also wasn't a big shipment delay.

      Last year, there were not nearly as many lego pieces for the challenge. There was no mat, the trade-off is the practice table was much harder to build, it took us long time to build the volcano and we had help from someone who does woodworking all the time. This year, the table itself was a piece of cake.

      Unfortunately, this year the challenge does depend quite a bit on the lego pieces provided in the challenge kit.


    5. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/12/2001 19:50:27 GMT
      This year ordering the challenge kit was an option, so they knew that they did not have to order as many kits as teams. It looks like they did not estimate the number of groups that would want more than one kit correctly. It is new to them and hopefully they will do a better job next year.


    6. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 09:23:51 GMT
      I don't know about that, this is the third year for a full challenge and each year they have increased the number of teams allowed, so they should have had a little better idea of how many challenge kits to have on hand.

      Last year it didn't matter as much since you had to build the volcano out of wood and lay the tape out for marking the field yourself. But this year, even if a team had already built a table last year, they would need to order a challenge kit to get all the field elements. It's pretty hard to recreate the pieces if you don't have one. And without a mat, it's would be hard to duplicate where your robots has to follow the lines, so most teams would need their own mats.

      The only teams who wouldn't need kits and mats would be if someone registered a team and then needed to register a second team because of the 10 kid maximum and the two teams shared a kit and mat. But I think even then, there would be many coaches who would like to have 2 challenge kits so they can practice with 2 tables.

      Anyway, hope they do better next year. The shipment delay was hard enough on teams, but then some teams were told after they had registered that no kits at all would be coming.


Discussion: Missing Kits!! By: moultrie robotics team 11/06/2001 21:20:35 GMT
Has everyone received their kits? Our team feels like we are light-years behind everyone? Are we the only team still without materials?

  1. Message by: wildcats 10/17/2001 18:24:14 GMT
    We also do not have any materials. They keep reassuring me that they are being sent but ... nothing ever seems to arrive. I have been feeling very frustrated by this. We too feel light years behind.


    1. Message by: tams2 10/17/2001 19:07:57 GMT
      Join the club.


      1. Message by: Cha Cha Icebergs 10/22/2001 18:15:49 GMT
        What are you talking about? Was there a club we wern't informed about? Why wern't we invited to join? Tell me how to join Because we feel left out! If you don't tell us, Someday we'll EXCLUDE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    2. Message by: IceBreakers (Previosly Chapel District Cheetahs) 10/18/2001 02:23:46 GMT
      Us, too. It seems that new teams deinately have a HUGE disadvenatage. Last week we went and bought a Mindstorms kit at a local store so we could at least build a robot and start to learn how to program. It's an expensive altenative to biting your fingernails! But, we're keeping the kids interested and we'll have "extra" pieces to play with.


    3. Message by: Alpengeist 10/19/2001 15:04:57 GMT
      I have 3 teams...no kits. The kids are getting restless!


      1. Message by: Cha Cha Icebergs 10/22/2001 18:17:05 GMT
        Ohhh, to bad!!!!!!!! Yeah, Right!!!


    4. Message by: Corning Computes 10/20/2001 23:35:56 GMT
      We also do not have a kit yet.


    5. Message by: BOB 10/22/2001 06:49:42 GMT
      According to this website, the rest of the kits are supposed to be shipping. Have your kits actually left Pitsco yet? They should be able to look up your team number to see where you are at in the shipping order.

      What I would suggest for teams that don't have kits yet is to focus on the research part first. You should also go over the mission itself. That's all available at the FLL website. You can go ahead and print out the challenge, the missions, and the building instructions for the FLL pieces from the website so you will be ready to go when your kit does come.

      This year's kit had many more pieces to build than the 2000 challenge. So as soon as your kit arrives, you will want to get busy building the various pieces. It took us a couple of meetings just to do that part.

      In prior years, kits always shipped by mid-August. This year has been very different. We like the mat, that's been a big improvement.

      Do any of your students have Mindstorms kits at home? Or is there a High School student who has one that can help mentor your teams? Have one of them bring a kit in and show the rest of the students how it all works. It's helpful if you have at least some of your team members already familiar with the concepts. It's a big learning curve to expect a student to not only do the challenge but to learn how to use Mindstorms or Robolab at the same time in just a short period.

      IMO, it's easier to use Mindstorms than Robolab if you are not familiar with either one. Robolab has some nice features and is intended for the classroom but if you don't know anything at all about RCXs you really have a lot of work to do. I'd also recommend the book Creative Projects with Lego Mindstorms. You should be able to find it at your local bookstores, look in the gaming section with the Playstation guides (it won't be in the computer section).

      If you do decide to go out and buy a Mindstorms kit, make sure it says 2.0 on the box. They are selling 1.5 kits in many stores but at the same price as the 2.0. Target and ToysRUs in my area have 2.0 kits but Best Buy still just has 1.5 kits. When you get your FLL kit from Pitsco that will include 2.0 software which can be used on any version, but it's better to have a 2.0 Mindstorms kit imo because of the USB port for the IR tower. 1.5 and 1.0 kits only have serial port towers.

      In Pitsco's educational catalog, they do have some nice classroom kits for Robolab that some schools may be interested in for other projects.

      Hopefully your kits will show up soon. There's a lot to digest. And the team kits also include a team manual with some tips on doing teams that are nice.

      But in the meantime, punt and at least get familiar with the challenge from the website.

      Susan


    6. Message by: Cha Cha Icebergs 10/22/2001 18:12:42 GMT
      Do you think that we care? well we don't! you will just have to miss the competition!! HaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!!!!!!


    7. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/22/2001 18:43:12 GMT
      Cha Cha Icebergs, you should tone it down a bit, this type of rhetoric is not in the spirit of this competition. The forum is to help people, not to torment people.


    8. Message by: Unibots 10/22/2001 19:38:20 GMT
      Cha Cha Icebergs --

      One of the precepts of FLL is to work together in a
      *professional* manner, your postings suggest a distinct
      lack of professionalism.

      -Peter


    9. Message by: First Eagle 10/26/2001 15:08:16 GMT
      you are all weird. You should go to the company that has the supplies and go get them. They shipped ours late and Cha Cha Iceberg. Shut up please.Thank You


    10. Message by: First Eagle 10/26/2001 15:10:57 GMT
      and besides this is a teamwork thing. You seem like a me only person Cha Cha Iceberg. Now apologize and work together nicley.


    11. Message by: Crusaders 10/28/2001 03:34:16 GMT
      We have our kits and are almost done our robot and programming.


    12. Message by: RoboScorps 10/30/2001 02:06:33 GMT
      Don't feel bad they were delayed I believe, because of a computer glitch but you will get your kits soon. good luck!


    13. Message by: arctic droidz 11/06/2001 21:20:35 GMT
      You should have your kits soon. The missions are really easy this year, so you won't have alot of catching up to do.


Discussion: lego pieces By: Mobots 11/10/2001 06:32:07 GMT


  1. Message by: Mobots 10/26/2001 22:21:56 GMT
    Hey guys. Listen, have any of you people gotten gipped off on with lego pieces? We're missing a whole bunch. We can't finish making any of the extra stuff.


    1. Message by: Unibots 10/26/2001 22:55:48 GMT
      Did you order the challenge set? The robotics set itself should NOT be used to make any of the field elements, only
      your robot.

      -Peter


    2. Message by: arctic droidz 11/06/2001 21:17:56 GMT
      You should have all your pieces, if you don't you must have made a mistake ordering your kit.


    3. Message by: BOB 11/10/2001 06:32:07 GMT
      Or in the alternative, there could have been a problem with their particular kit not being packaged right. They did run out of kits.

      The kits didn't come with a parts list, but by reading the assembly instructions for the field elements, you can see what you need.



Folder: Programming 12/10/2001 23:04:54 GMT


Discussion: Windows X-P By: Frostbyte 10/30/2001 19:56:57 GMT
Has anyone tried to use 2.0 with Windows X-P? And if so, is it compatible?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/30/2001 19:56:57 GMT
    Frostbyte, please ask your question in only one place. This is the third place I have seen the same question. Most of us look at all the new messages no matter where it is placed. Be patient and someone will answer you. I doubt that very many people are using Windows XP yet so you may not get an answer, you might be the only one trying right now. Have you asked LEGO?


Discussion: Help! Robolab Crashes By: Indian Grove Four 09/21/2001 03:21:35 GMT
Robolab crashes with a blue screen on any operation that would talk to the RCX: RCX Settings, Download, etc.

The message is

VCOMM(05) + 0000053A Error OE : 0028 : C02AA03A

Any clues?
It was installed on the D Drive of a Sony Vaio laptop, with the Investigator option turned on. Mindstorms RIS 2.0 seems to work fine.

Contact me at joelfinkle@hotmail.com
Thanks,
Joel Finkle, Team 789

  1. Message by: Indian Grove Four 09/21/2001 03:21:35 GMT
    Never mind.
    A reboot (which hadn't been done after installing Robolab) cleared up the problem. Note: RIS didn't work after Robolab either -- but did before Robolab.

    If anyone else sees this -- reboot.

    Joel


Discussion: PROGRAMING TIPS By: GLEAPS 12/10/2001 23:04:54 GMT
We're looking for some program tips. Does anyone have a good program for following a line. We have down loaded a program and have written one but both are very slow. Any help would be nice.

  1. Message by: Unibots 09/27/2001 23:39:14 GMT
    The most common line following algorithm is very slow, it uses one number to compare against (1/2 the difference between light and dark) and turns left or right depending on whether the reading from the light sensor is above or below that number, so you never have both motors on at the same time and the robot wiggles down the line.

    The trick is to add "hysteresis" which is just a fancy word for "tolerance". Think about a thermostat in a room set to
    a temperature of, for example, 78 degrees. If the heater turned on every time the temperature dropped to 77 degrees and the air conditioner turned on every time the temperature hit 79 degrees, the heater or the air conditioner would be on almost constantly and you'd have a HUGE electric bill. The way thermostats work is that they don't introduce a correction until the temperature changes from the "ideal" (the set value) by some number of degrees (usually 3).

    You can do the same thing with the light sensor values when following a line, go straight on your "ideal" plus or minus 2 or three) turn only when the change is significant enough
    to warrant a turn left or right.

    The result will be a robot that moves very quickly along a straight black line and slows down a bit on the turns. The better your robot is able to drive straight, the faster it will be able to follow a straight line because it will have to make fewer corrections.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Robotics Club
    Fielding 2 teams (yet to be nanmed) this year


    1. Message by: MVRT115 09/29/2001 05:44:33 GMT
      any tips on using 1 program for 2 missions?


    2. Message by: NWCS 10/01/2001 20:26:40 GMT
      Has anyone successfully made Robolab 2.0 to work on Win/NT or Win/2K? Robolab installed OK on both OS, but can not talk to the IR download module through the serial ports. The same hardware worked OK under the W95/98 partition.


      1. Message by: Sub-Zero-Squad 10/18/2001 03:02:37 GMT
        If you have the Mindstorms 2.0; Robolab has an updated software version 2.5 which works with the USB. You will need to contact Robolab to get the upgrade. - Sub-Zero Squad


      2. Message by: EEL1 10/18/2001 23:25:25 GMT
        I have seen both Robolab 2 and 2.5 run under both 2k and NT.
        Sound like something is not installed on your serial port.

        First check the BIOS settings on the PC.(Before machine boots) - Sometimes ports are disabled in the BIOS.
        Next in the setting part of the OS see if the 'hardware/drivers for the serial port are installed and set up correctly. Sometimes an internal or external modem insallation screws up the serial ports.

        Lastly use the DOS box or "run cmd" option to open a DOS box
        on your machine see if you can access the serial port -

        COPY TTY: COM1: or something similar to see if the software can 'see' the hardware.

        Make sure you have a serial IR box and not a USB - or by mistake have set up the newer USB type IR box. Robolab 2.5
        has the ability to talk to the newer USB towers.


    3. Message by: Unibots 10/01/2001 20:44:42 GMT
      I've used RoboLab 2.0 and 2.5 successfully on Win2K. My laptop runs Win2K pro and is what my team used last year (with RoboLab 2.0) as their system to take to tournaments,
      and we've been using 2.5 quite successfully at team meetings on my laptop, not to mention all the tinkering
      my daughter and I do on the side.

      -Peter


    4. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/03/2001 17:21:06 GMT
      What's the deal with RoboLab v. 2.5? RoboLab 2.0 came with our kit (we're a rookie team so we bought everything new this year). Are we permitted to use the 2.5 upgrade?

      Thanks,

      Mary Kay
      Coach, St. Joe's, Crescent Springs, KY


    5. Message by: Unibots 10/03/2001 19:23:33 GMT
      Yes, you can use 2.5, though the new features of it won't make all that much of a difference to the challenge, unless you have a pretty advanced group that would take advantage of a subsumption programming architecture.

      The autowiring and USB tower support are pretty nice, so
      if you want to upgrade, I'd encourage it.

      -Peter


    6. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/03/2001 22:15:02 GMT
      I don't quite understand Unibots explanation about your fast line following algorithm. Any other help you could give me?

      Thanks,
      Stephen


    7. Message by: Oak Creek Ice 10/03/2001 22:31:42 GMT
      1)Has anybody used task splits in a subroutine in RoboLab 2.01? We're wondering if the program waits for all tasks in the subroutine to finish before moving on to the next command in the main string.
      2) Also, has anybody called a subroutine from a subroutine.
      This seems to be legal, but we do not get the expected results when we try it..
      3) Does anybody know execution times for various commands in RoboLab

      Thanks in advance for any help.


    8. Message by: Unibots 10/04/2001 08:42:31 GMT
      St Joseph #1 -

      Look at it this way, suppose your light sensor reads a value around "20" for the line, and "50" for the white
      on either side of the line. The simplest algorithm for
      following the line would have the robot wiggling back
      and forth around the value of "35" ((50+20)/2, the
      average of the two values). Like this (pseudo code)

      if (lightsensor > 35) then
      motor A on
      motor C off
      else
      motor C on
      motor A off
      endif

      This will certainly follow the line (assuming motor
      A powers the left side and motor C powers the right side
      and the robot can turn on its axis), but because the
      robot never has both motors on at the same time and never
      drives straight down the line, it's kind of slow.

      What I'm suggesting is that you pivot around a RANGE
      of values, rather than the one specific value of 35. I
      usually like a hysteresis of 2 or 3 values on either side
      of the average. In this case we want to drive straight
      on a light reading between 32 and 38, like this:

      if (lightsensor > 38) then
      motor A on
      motor C off
      else
      if (lightsensor < 32) then
      motor A off
      motor C on
      else
      motor A on
      motor C on
      endif
      endif

      The difference in speed is startling.

      -Peter


    9. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/05/2001 02:44:44 GMT
      Unibots,
      Thank you very, very much for your help. I get it now.

      -Stephen


    10. Message by: Arctic Dolphins 10/25/2001 04:03:15 GMT
      It may take a while but you should watch all the short clips about how to program the robot but it is very useful when it becomes time to program the robot you should also make copies of the cd so some of your teamates can take it home and practice


    11. Message by: Arctic Dolphins 10/25/2001 04:25:40 GMT
      When you program your robot don't skip short clips!


    12. Message by: RoboScorps 11/06/2001 02:33:15 GMT
      Thanx 4 the advice on the short clips but what would happen if they won't load and u keep having to restart because of it; so our team is having to do without.


    13. Message by: St. Joseph #1 11/07/2001 17:07:21 GMT
      re: Robolab 2.0 connector to the IR tower

      Is anyone else having problems with the serial connector pushing in the pins on their laptop computer? We have been having terrible problems with this for a month but, two days ago, the whole connection failed and I was forced to have it serviced. I had to have the motherboard on my laptop replaced (thankfully, under warranty). The pins on the serial port had almost entirely receded into the case. And on the new motherboard, it's happening AGAIN!! The computer technician told me it's because the molded plastic connector is simply too tight -- needs to be a screw-in type instead because the pins on laptops are so delicate.

      This just seems bizarre to me that you essentially have to use a laptop, with delicate pins/ports, and yet the Lego connector acts like a hammer against those pins. Anyone else having problems?

      Luckily, we ordered Robolab 2.5 (and so did the rest of the world apparently 'cuz it's backordered) with a USB connector so maybe the problem will be solved soon.

      Mary Kay
      Coach, St. Joe's #1


      1. Message by: LCS Alpha 11/08/2001 19:52:31 GMT
        I've seen this happen to THREE lap tops, different manufacturers - IBM & Gateway. When the first one happened we assumed that the kids had been rough with it (and yes, that computer also needed a new mother board, which isn't cheap) - but the second and third were handled only once by a responsible adult, with the same problem. I've notified both Lego Pitsco Data (spoke to the head of customer service) and FIRST about this issue and recommended that teams be warned about this potential problem, but have not seen any warning posted. I'm happy that someone else has mentioned it.


    14. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 17:58:59 GMT
      I haven't had a problem with any of my laptops (Dell, IBM, Sony) in two years of coaching, but I have always hated the connectors, they're strange. You could just get a standard
      9 pin female to 9 pin female serial wire and replace the one from LEGO, or get a short 9 pin female to 9
      pin male wire and use it between your laptop and the
      LEGO cable, easier to replace a cheap serial cable than
      a motherboard!

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and Icebreakers


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 11/10/2001 02:00:52 GMT
        Thanks, Peter, I'll take your suggestions. My laptop is also a Dell.

        Mary Kay


    15. Message by: JACDD 11/07/2001 19:46:39 GMT
      I don't think there is any mechanical difference between the serial port connectors on laptop versus desktop or tower machines. I don't like the molded plastic connectors on the Lego cable either, but so far haven't had any trouble. As Peter said, you can easily replace the cable. Make sure you get a "normal" F-F cable, as apposed to a "null modem" cable. In other words, the cable has RX/TX and RTS/CTS flipped. Only those 4 signals and ground are required.


    16. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/09/2001 00:51:15 GMT
      We found this problem last year and just used a extension cable. This worked well as most extension cables use fixed pins in the shell where most laptops use a long wire attached to the circuit board that can be pushed in and bent. It is best to be save and use an extension cable.


    17. Message by: Roborisk 11/16/2001 14:35:53 GMT
      Wow I'm glad I just read these messages
      We've got the same problem as you I just thought it was my laptop - I will try to get one of these cables organised before we need to replace the motherboard !
      -Louise
      Organiser of Roborisk (UK)


    18. Message by: Harrison 11/28/2001 02:45:50 GMT
      Mindstorms 2.0 seems to have a problem when we add a lot to the program. The robot will perform as programmed for several times, then if we add to the program it seems to mess up the entire program, not just what we added. Does RIS 2.0 have a limit as to the number of commands or length of programs. None of our programs are extremely long. Could it be something else?


      1. Message by: 12/06/2001 05:22:04 GMT
        Deleted


      2. Message by: Bolton 1 12/06/2001 05:23:05 GMT
        We have the same problem with one of our RXCs, but not the other (yet). We are using RoboLab, so I don't think it's a programming problem. The RCX has a 1500 program step limit inclusive of all channels, so I can't imagine it's different for each program (though I could be wrong).

        I'm starting to suspect it's the RCX itself. The kids called it "The Curse of 5" because every fifth time the program would run, it would do something bizarre. We've tried overwriting, and dumping everything, including the firmware, and reloading. It doesn't seem to help. Has anyone else had this problem?

        Vicki
        Coach of the Bolton
        TeknoBots and M.A.D.D.Bots


    19. Message by: fhelego (we are actually the Icebots) 11/28/2001 19:12:54 GMT
      All discussions I have seen have been about RIS or Robolab. Does anyone know if NQC (Not Quite C)or Visual Basic are legal to use for the final program(s) in the competition?


    20. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/29/2001 15:31:23 GMT
      fhelego,
      Please read the rules in particular #14 it is quite clear what can be used.

      --Dave Kolberg


    21. Message by: JACDD 12/06/2001 15:27:17 GMT
      We had our RCX do some strange things, unfortunately starting the night before the tournament. We were actively testing new software and overwriting the program slots for a couple of hours, then suddenly slot 3 refused to be programmed. The same program worked fine in slot 4. We tried downloading the whole firmware again, but that created other flaky symptoms. We reprogrammed to avoid slot 3 and things worked for a few minutes. Suddenly all the code that used the light sensors refused to work. This included code that had not been altered, as verified by the date/time stamp on the files.

      The next morning at the tournament all slots could be programmed again, but the light sensor auto-calibration code still didn't work. This was traced down to two blocks that manipulated containers. One added a value to a container, the other divided the container by 2. We hard coded manually measured values into the containers for the tournament and moved on, but I'd still like to know what happened.

      Looking back, I wonder if the RCX could be overheating. This might explain why it acted flaky after lots of testing but worked better the next morning. We probably have a broken RCX, but I'm always suspicious of blaming someone else. Have any of you seen these kinds of symptoms?


    22. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 12/10/2001 19:18:52 GMT
      We have found some flaky behavior while using a watch sensor with time. Some of the time, the second stack (under the time sensor) would execute before anything else. One way to avoid this (though not all the time) is to make sure you use an End Program block at the end of each program. This helped in most of the cases, however, there was one case that was still flaky

      --Dave Kolberg


    23. Message by: JACDD 12/10/2001 23:04:54 GMT
      This is a followup to message 28. We still don't know what caused the original flakys, but we know why some things broke after downloading new firmware.

      It turns out that the RIS and RoboLab software we received from Pitsco each had a different firmware version for download. The firmware with RIS is newer. This is what we downloaded back in August. We've been using RoboLab exclusively since September. After evaluating both, RoboLab was clearly the more powerful and flexible environment. However, some of the RoboLab advanced blocks won't work with the firmware on the same RoboLab CD (doesn't anyone ever test this stuff!!?), but they do work with the firmware that came on the RIS CD. After downloading the firmware from the RIS CD into the RCX, our code worked again.

      I think the original flakies were cause by continuous use of the RCX. Maybe it gets hot internally when running power to the motors for a long time? The flakies happened twice, both times after rather long testing sessions.


Discussion: 5 sensors, 3 ports, program help By: icebergs 10/12/2001 22:39:01 GMT
Anyone know how to use all five sensors with only three ports? Is there a way to piggyback them and get inputs from two sensors on the same port? Or can we only use 3 at a time and disconnect them when our robot is in the boat between missions?

  1. Message by: Team 50937 10/08/2001 15:55:33 GMT
    Piggybacking is a useful technique for using multiple sensors. For example, you may have two switches used as bumpers and you want to stop if either is hit. This is a logical OR condition and by stacking the two connectors together you acomplish this. To AND the switches together (both must be pressed) you can use one extra cable and 'daisy chain' the switches together. Another technique is to piggyback a switch with a light sensor. When the switch is pressed the light reading will drop near 0.
    There are other ways using light bulbs as resistors and non lego parts butI feel that doing so would violate the spirit as well as the rules of the competition.
    Mark Team 50937 Concord NH


    1. Message by: icebergs 10/12/2001 22:39:01 GMT
      Thanks, Mark! I'll pass this info along to our programmers.

      Dale Murrish
      Team 611 Imperial ICEBERGs
      Troy, MI


Discussion: Subroutines ? By: Skuas 11/22/2001 19:51:24 GMT
We are using RoboLabl 2.0. We were going through the Practice Activities found on the website and ran into a question. #4 Training Challenge talks about installing "extras" and gives directions for how to do so. However, when we go to Inventor Level 4 and click on the program menu, we do not have the choice of install or remove extras. Also, we do not see the icons pictured on the web page. Any clues or suggestions? Thanks!

Marie Hopper
SKUAS - Skuas Knowing & Understanding Arctic Science
#1431

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/03/2001 02:44:50 GMT
    Hi Marie,

    Check all the menus, I cannot remember which one it
    is in, but there should be a menu item entitled
    "install (remove) extras" under one of the menus. I'm
    running 2.5 now so I cannot go and check, sorry. If
    I remember I'll check on one of my machines at home when
    I get there...

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: Skuas 11/05/2001 03:47:52 GMT
      Thanks! We finally found it! Your a great help!

      Marie


    2. Message by: wildcats 11/19/2001 17:31:41 GMT
      I still have a few questions about programming. How do you do subroutines? Do you have to
      have a particular version of Robolab? I have been trying to figure it out to no avail. Could you
      help?

      Thanks,
      Laura Stevenson


    3. Message by: Unibots 11/20/2001 03:49:48 GMT
      Robolab 2.5 has the subroutine icons available "out of the box" but Robolab 2.0 needs to have them enabled. One
      of the menu's has an "Install (Remove) Extras" item, if you
      select it, then restart robolab, you'll have a bunch of
      extra useful icons, like motor float and the subroutine
      icons.

      -Peter


    4. Message by: wildcats 11/20/2001 17:57:09 GMT
      Thank you. I have installed the Extras. Is there anywhere that these icons are explained? I checked the "Getting Started" manual and nothing there. I heard some coaches talking at the competition about using subroutines to make the programming string less lengthy. I would like to know how but can't figure it out and can't find information. Anyone?????

      Thanks,
      Laura Stevenson


    5. Message by: Unibots 11/21/2001 01:28:19 GMT
      Drop a subroutine icon (or any other icon you want explained) into a program, switch to the "place" tool
      (the arrow) and double-click the icon to get the
      help for that icon, in RoboLab 2.5 the help is more
      extensive, but its still useful in RoboLab 2.0.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    6. Message by: JACDD 11/22/2001 18:01:48 GMT
      Another way to get help is to enable the help window. Go to HELP and select something like "show help window". The help window will always be open and will change automatically as you hover over different icons. Hover over the subroutine icon and it will tell you everything you need to know.

      Unfortunately Robolab is missing other useful documentation. Apparently Robolab 2.5 doesn't ship with any new documentation either!


    7. Message by: Unibots 11/22/2001 19:51:24 GMT
      The new extended help system for Robolab 2.5 is pretty
      good for quick&dirty documentation, the teachers guide
      (getting started #3) covers the new features of 2.5
      reasonably, but Robolab IS seriously lacking in useful
      documentation. I'm working to change that, but won't be
      done in time for this year...

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Adding Comments in RIS Programs By: CC 4th Grade 11/13/2001 21:07:00 GMT
Anyone know of a way to add comments into our RIS 1.5 programs? Our programs have grown quite long and comments would sure help us find our way around more quickly.

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/12/2001 19:52:00 GMT
    Try using "MyBlocks" to combine things into "labeled" groups.


    1. Message by: Bears 11/13/2001 21:04:11 GMT
      Also, under the pull down menu File or Edit I believe, there is a command to add a comment. The comment is a grey block that appears on the screen after choosing the pull-down menu item.


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/13/2001 21:07:00 GMT
      If you upgrade to RIS2.0, you can add comments using the add comment under the edit menu. Upgrading RIS2.0 from RIS1.5 will be a shock. There is more power in RIS2.0 and is well worth the upgrade. MyBlocks are stronger, Use of variables is great. Finding the low level blocks that you use in RIS1.5 is tricky but all of them are there and easier to use, you just have to get used to a different grouping of blocks. The programs from 1.5 should be compatible too.


Discussion: Can't edit program problem - v2.0 By: FIS Icers 11/16/2001 20:26:47 GMT
Has anyone had a problem with not being able to edit a program?
One of our teams had saved several programs, and then all of a sudden they were not able to edit them. For example, clicking a block on the stack, moving it off, then trying to reconnect is now not working. The block won't 'reconnect' to the stack, and new blocks can't be added.
We've tried:
reinstalling v2.0
copying the program
copying the program to a differnet user's vault
moving/copying the program to a differnet directory
checked the file wasn't read-only
tried copying the program into a myblock so we could use it in a new program (but couldn't make a myblock as we couldn't edit the program)
created a new program - works ok for a time, but then exhibits the same problem

We've been on the phone w/ Lego but no solution yet. I will look at it more closely this weekend, but thought I'd check to see if anyone else has seen this.
It's on a Compaq laptop running Win98 I believe (I'll check the OS this weekend too).

thanks,
Edge - FIS Icers team helper

Discussion: Interesting Discovery! By: Skuas 11/19/2001 03:26:46 GMT
Just wanted to share what happened to one of our Greensboro teams at a preliminary tournament.

The kids must have been walking around with their robot on and it got zapped with someone else's program. They didn't have a laptop with them and no one else had the RIS program that they had been using. Another team loaned them a laptop (PC) with Robolab. One of the team members had memorized the program, so he talked it through to one of our team members familiar with Robolab. (Our team is using Robolab on Mac.) Between the two of them, they were able to reconstruct the program. The surprise to all of us was this: they were able to download the Robolab program onto the RCX without losing any of the RIS programs on other the "channels."

Pretty cool!

Marie Hopper
Skuas Coach

  1. Message by: arctic droidz 11/19/2001 03:26:46 GMT
    Hey Skuas,

    Congrats about recovering your programming. Our school team actually discovered that problem the first year we did robotics in 1999. We were at the Chicago tournament and our program kept changing. Someone finally discovered that we were intercepting other teams progams. We now carry our robot around in an aluminum foil lined plastic container which does not allow transmission to the RCX. Good luck this year--unless of course you are competing against us--just kidding!!

    Kathy Stump
    Arctic Droidz coach


Discussion: RIS 2.0 "Wait Until" and "Repeat Until" problem using variables & Rotation sensor By: arctic monkeys 11/22/2001 01:42:29 GMT
Using RIS 2.0, my kids created a "WAIT UNTIL" block waiting for the rotation sensor counter to be greater than a value. It works fine with a fixed number. However when using a variable, it intermittently turns into a "WAIT FOREVER" command and never comes out of the wait. It fails about one in five times.

They are resetting the rotation counter to zero at the start of the pgm.

The rotation counter is moving in a positive direction.

We have viewed the RCX and displayed the debug screen on the PC, and can see the rotation counter going past its target variable value.

For example, I setup the following code:

Set rotation counter = zero
On A
Set Distance = 100
Wait Until Rotation Counter > Distance
Off A

Most of the time motor A will turn off when the rotation counter goes past 100. But intermittently the motor will remain on, even though I can see on the view and the PC monitor that the rotation counter is in the 1000's and Distance is still 100.

I am using Windows 2000 as the OS. Could this be adversely affecting the rotation counter in the RCX?

Everything else seems to work well - but the "WAIT UNTIL variable" and "REPEAT UNTIL variable" are pretty basic commands to do without!!

Has anyone else experienced this problem?? Any solution?

  1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 11/20/2001 16:54:06 GMT
    We have seen similar things. The bottom line is that variables are not set to their given value at the start of the program. They are initialized to 0, then set to a whatever is given in a Set Variable block AFTER. If you set up a watcher, this Set Variable can actually trigger a watcher that is watching the variable, even though you think it is set before hand.

    I don't think this quite addresses what you said, but we have diagnosed the above. I recommend cutting out parts of the program to see what affects it. Also, I recommend looking at the .lsc file for the program in Notepad.

    These things are sometimes hard to get your brain around.

    --Jack Gregory


    1. Message by: traut pro programmers 11/22/2001 01:42:29 GMT
      I have seen something similar with the light sensors and RIS 2.0. Seemed that the first such loop in a program would work fine, but subsequent loops would not terminate properly.

      What I had to do was to load the light sensor value into a variable and then just compare the two variables for the loop termination condition.
      repeat
      set rcount = rotation counter
      until rcount > distance



Folder: Recover Stray Medical Supply Container 11/28/2001 17:57:00 GMT



Folder: rotation sensors 11/26/2001 13:18:02 GMT
>providing infomation

Discussion: infomation By: LEGGY-EGGY 11/26/2001 13:18:02 GMT
>please provide info on roation sensors as we need some.
THANKYOU

  1. Message by: RoboScorps 11/13/2001 03:25:11 GMT
    ROTATION SENSORS COUNT HOW MANY TURNS TO GO FORWARD OR BACKWARD, SO THEREFORE YOU WILL HAVE TO USE AN AXLE OR THOSE DIFFERENT SIZED BLACK RODS. IF YOU GO THROUGH THE TOUR ON YOUR PROGRAMMING CD, I AM PRETTY SURE THEY WILL TELL YOU ABOUT THEM. HOPE MY INFO HELPS AND GOOD LUCK!



Folder: Robots 11/29/2001 02:58:05 GMT


Discussion: Light Sensor Test Pad By: Arctic Dolphins 10/15/2001 06:16:41 GMT
Our Lego kit did not include a Light Sensor Test Pad. I called the Lego customer service and they 'thought' the test pad was not included in the kit. Can anyone confirm that the test pad is not part of the kit?

Thanks

Freshwater Dolphins
Eureka, CA

  1. Message by: Hillside Ice 10/02/2001 20:39:37 GMT
    We got it with the kit so I'd go back to the store and, either get your money back or get one for free.


    1. Message by: Bjarke 10/03/2001 09:41:36 GMT
      That depends on what set you are talking about. The Officiel FLL Robot Set does not include the test pad. But the Robotics Invention System 2.0 from the retail does.

      Bjarke/LEGO


    2. Message by: TennFLL 10/06/2001 14:24:39 GMT
      All you really need is a large piece of white paper with a black line on it. Black marker on white poster board will work nicely.


    3. Message by: MVRT115 10/15/2001 06:16:41 GMT
      just as tip, the playing feild is pretty blue, so you should program your robot to sense lighter rays of black so it'll see the lines on the playing feild


Discussion: A Straight Moving Robot Without Sensors? By: HARC Hornets 11/29/2001 02:58:05 GMT
Does anyone have a suggestion on how to keep a robot moving in a straight line without using sensors? Our team tested three robots. Two of the robots were made with wheels and one was made with tracks. All of them had two motors. They all went straight for only approximately 12 inches. Then they either turned right or left.

Coach Tracey
HARC Hornets

  1. Message by: Ziegler 10/17/2001 16:34:56 GMT
    We have had similar problems. Our tend to veer only slightly. Are you programming, or using the built in program. The built-in program does turn.


    1. Message by: Unibots 10/17/2001 19:32:26 GMT
      This is a natural occurence, if you are powering the left and right side of the robot with two different motors (the easiest way to steer) you have one motor turning "forward" and the other "back" electric motors have a "natural" direction which is slightly more efficient. So, there will be a slight "drift" to one direction or the other. The best you can do is "match" the motors (try all possible pairings of motors) to get as straight a line as possible.

      The other possibility is to use an alternative drive
      mechanism that is a little more precise, but given that there is only one differential you're probably better off
      using sensors to help you navigate.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    2. Message by: 10/18/2001 02:35:53 GMT
      Deleted


    3. Message by: 10/18/2001 02:51:05 GMT
      Deleted


    4. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/18/2001 04:01:40 GMT
      Peter: I believe the theory that there is a (statiscally significant) difference between forward and reverse has been discredited on LUGNET. Someone actually tested a zillion of them. Instead, all motors are different, and you need to calibrate them (plug them into a rotation sensor, and run for a set time) and then match ones that will be drive motors.

      This helps, but will not solve the inability of a robot with differential steering to go straight. Slight binding on one side, more gearing on one side than another, all contribute to slight differences that teams have to deal with.

      I consider this the fundamental issue in this contest. The team that makes a robot go where it wants to go is going to do well.

      --Jack Gregory


    5. Message by: Ziegler 10/18/2001 04:40:51 GMT
      I have to agree with Jack. Last year, most teams (especially mine) seemed to have to repeat trying to get the scientist because their robotic arm was a little off, or they were a few centimeters off from the crater when dropping the gas sensor.

      We are experimenting. Actually, the kids are doing it on their own. With 4 teams (soon to be three when the other coach takes one), I find that all I have time to do is schedule table time, computer time and keep order.

      Lowell
      Coach of Teams 774, 776, 1260 and Mentor to 775 and 1259


    6. Message by: Unibots 10/18/2001 21:08:36 GMT
      Wow Lowell! 4 Teams! I have my hands full with 2!
      Good work! What ages?

      -Peter


    7. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/19/2001 19:45:54 GMT
      I read about a trick you can do to find matching motors, take a motor with a small gear on it and with both motors going in the same direction mesh the gears together (motors facing each other), if the motors match their will not be any movement between the motors. The more motion between the motors, the more difference between speeds. This will find matching motors (we found 3 sets out of 6 kits). It does not solve all the problems, load on a motor will change it's speed. The load on the motor can come from friction along with differences in the number of gears attached. You have two choices, one follow the "leads" on the ice using a sensor, or two find the combination of motors, gears, axles, etc that will provide your specific robot with straight motion. I do agree that this is one of the fundamental issues of the contest. If a robot when straight and at a predictable speed all the time, the contest would be very easy. As it is this is the real world and this gives the kids a taste of the real world problems (nothing is perfect). It is this variability that forces the kids to think "out of the box". Our robot last year would not follow a straight line for anything, so we had to rely on the line follower and hope that the short distances that we ventured off the line would not be too far off. We were successful in getting the scientist about 90% of the time. There were many robots that did dead reckoning (straight line) using the walls as guides for position that were fast but did not get the scientist all the time. As in every problem there is many solutions and the solution that your team comes up with will be different than all the other teams. What works for one team may not work for another team. Some teams use speed and many attempts, other slow but sure with no extra attempts. So do not struggle with what is best and just start working with what you have. There is no magic bullet to solving this, there are many solutions all over the world. Some of the best solutions may not even make it to the finals, sometimes it just comes down to luck.


    8. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/21/2001 17:43:31 GMT
      Re: Rotation Sensor

      We're having trouble with the rotation sensor binding up the motor. Does anyone have any suggestions or know of a tutorial on the use of the rotation sensor? The guys are playing with where to place it but we're not having much success at all.

      Thanks,

      Mary Kay
      Coach, St. Joe's #1


    9. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/22/2001 02:57:24 GMT
      Don't "build-in" the rotation sensor. Just let it float on an axle. Using it like a LEGO, by the studs and all, just seems to cause binding, probably because the hole isn't in precisely the right place. By careful arrangement of the cord, and some surrounding elements, it will not be a problem.

      It should not be used in any structural way.

      This misalignment may vary per sensor, but I would strongly recommend not building it in.

      --Jack Gregory


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/22/2001 03:37:02 GMT
        Thanks, Jack, let's see if we have this straight.

        We did attach the top of the sensor to the body of the robot to keep it from wobbling around. We added a separate axle for the rotation sensor and attached it by a gear to the wheel's axle. We're driving one side with each motor. The side with the rotation sensor kept binding up.

        If we allow the whole rotation sensor to move completely freely on an axle, that should do it?

        Many thanks,

        Mary Kay


        1. Message by: Team Arctic Blizzard 10/27/2001 04:41:18 GMT
          Hmm... I may be misunderstanding this a little bit. It sounds like you are using the rotation sensor to keep track of how much one of your drive wheels turns. We bought a separate rotation sensor (for our secondary kit) that came with an illustration for using the rotation sensor in a "drag wheel" configuration, trailing behind the robot - not connected in any way to the drive mechanism. We used this to great effect to get the robot to move a specific distance.


    10. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/23/2001 02:32:03 GMT
      >We did attach the top of the sensor to the body of the robot to keep it from wobbling around.

      That is the problem. Let it wobble! Anything that forces the axle to be a certain distance from the LEGO coordinate frame is problematic. If left on its axle, it can't move away from it, it can only slide along it, or spin around it. Keep it from sliding by putting things on either side, and keep it from rotating by putting something in the way.

      --Jack Gregory


    11. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 21:21:54 GMT
      You can just program it to go forward for how many second you want it to go.


    12. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 22:51:27 GMT
      Droidz -- the problem with that approach is that your robot will get slower as the batteries weaken -- which can happen surprisingly fast in a tournament where you are doing practice rounds to fine tune your program and competition
      rounds.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    13. Message by: iceburg_strategists 11/09/2001 08:00:53 GMT
      Quick Question - We are having problems getting RIS to accept "negative" values from the rotation sensor. You can't have the rotation fields go from one number to a smaller one as when the robot is backing up. Any suggestions?

      Thanks


      1. Message by: madscientists 11/27/2001 04:26:59 GMT
        Reply to iceburg_strategists - 07:00am Nov 9, 2001 (#16 of 18)

        I've been teaching our team to re-zero the rotation sensor every time the robot is to go in a new direction.

        - Mark , Coach, Team 184


        1. Message by: Skuas 11/27/2001 23:38:35 GMT
          How do you re-zero the rotation sensor? Can this be done while it is in the field?

          Marie Hopper
          Skuas Coach


    14. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/12/2001 19:53:48 GMT
      At least in the Mindstorms 1.0 and 2.0 you can type in a number and it accepts - numbers typed in.


    15. Message by: JACDD 11/12/2001 22:43:42 GMT
      We are working with both positive and negative rotation sensor number just fine in RoboLab.


    16. Message by: Unibots 11/28/2001 00:40:12 GMT
      In the "reset" section of the ROBOLAB functions you
      will find the icon to reset the rotation sensor.

      The "waitfor rotation" icon automatically resets the
      sensor when it starts.

      -Peter


      1. Message by: Skuas 11/29/2001 02:58:05 GMT
        Ohhhh! Thanks - we need to explore this program lots more - this spring when we have more time.

        Marie


Discussion: robot By: sjcs 10/27/2001 04:23:37 GMT
When does robot have to be turned in.


  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/23/2001 23:54:38 GMT
    What do you mean "turned in"? You bought the robot kit and it is yours to keep. If you mean turned in for a tournament, that is not done in the FLL, you are in possession of your robot at all times except when it is doing a mission on the field. It is your responsibility at all other times.


    1. Message by: Unibots 10/23/2001 23:56:09 GMT
      And if you mean "when is a tournament" that will depend on your location, etc.

      -Peter


    2. Message by: Sub-Zeros 10/25/2001 14:22:25 GMT
      We received our kit without the Constructopedia and do not have the instructions for the basic Roverbot. If anyone out there is able to email instructions that can help our new team in UK build the basic robot we would really appreciate it.

      Vince Hayward, Coach vjhayward@educ.somerset.gov.uk
      Sub-Zeros
      Selwood Middle School
      Somerset
      UK


      1. Message by: Team Arctic Blizzard 10/27/2001 04:23:37 GMT
        Hello Vince,

        There is a version of the original Contructopedia online at:

        http://www.wordsmithdigital.com/mindstorms/constructopedia.htm

        But this does *not* include the Roverbot in it. I will see if I can scan the Roverbot plans for you.

        Doug McGlathery, Team Arctic Blizzard
        dmcglathery@alum.mit.edu


Discussion: Robot extenders By: Blizzards 10/23/2001 15:39:00 GMT
We were wondering if you are allowed to make a little robot that attatchs to the RCX via a wire that runs and hits all the simple tasks. We would not be controlling the separate robot by a controller or manually by another motor acting as a generator, this would be driven by the RCX.

  1. Message by: Cotter School 10/23/2001 00:24:12 GMT
    Is it possible to use a remote controller connected by wires, operated by a team member touching touch sensors on the remote controller, to steer a robot through a course?


    1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/23/2001 02:33:40 GMT
      Blizzards, yes, Cotter School no.

      But Blizzards, you won't have enough wire.

      --Jack Gregory


    2. Message by: Ziegler 10/23/2001 15:39:00 GMT
      Last year, in Virginia, a team used touch sensors and was not allowed to compete for points total. However, they did get an award for innovative design. Make sense?

      Robot has to be completely autonomous. You don't touch a thing until it returns, or gets stuck and you have to retrieve it (minus a fuel barrel).

      Lowell
      Teams 774, 776, 1259, 1260


Discussion: motors By: Blizzards 10/26/2001 03:08:09 GMT
We were wondering if you can use more than 3 motors if they are not all attached at the same time?

  1. Message by: Joanne 10/23/2001 01:17:03 GMT
    The rules clearly state the only the pieces from ONE set and expansion set may be used. there are only three motors in all of this so I believe that only three motors may be used at all times. a strategy would be to use a three motor mission first bring it back, then run a mission only envolving two motors and while that is out take the extra motor out of the old robpt and put it on the one returning to base.


    1. Message by: Skuas 10/23/2001 02:46:11 GMT
      So are you using two robots? If yes, how so?

      Marie Hopper


    2. Message by: Reeds Brook Rebels 10/25/2001 20:35:39 GMT
      How many motors can you use?


    3. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 22:35:47 GMT
      Reeds -

      3 motors total.

      -Peter


    4. Message by: Reeds Brook Rebels 10/25/2001 22:47:34 GMT
      Thanks, do you know why they sent us another motor this year then? Is it just in case one from last year is broken?


    5. Message by: Unibots 10/26/2001 03:08:09 GMT
      Depends on what you ordered. The only thing you need
      if you had last year's kit is a 2nd light sensor, which
      was one of the options on the registration site. If you
      ordered the upgrade kit, they assumed you only had a
      standard mindstorms set with 2 motors.

      -Peter


Discussion: cars atatched to a RCX By: Blizzards 11/07/2001 21:17:49 GMT
We were wondering if you can make a separate little car that runs on one motor which is attached to the RCX by 2 of our extra long wires that can hit the simple targets while attached to the RCX? We would put a program on the RCX that would run the car from long distance, making it easier and almost free from use of barrels.

  1. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 22:36:41 GMT
    Yes, that's legal.

    -Peter


    1. Message by: 11/07/2001 21:16:26 GMT
      Deleted


Discussion: robodics By: Robodemons 11/07/2001 22:52:50 GMT
how many missons

  1. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 21:19:42 GMT
    There are 9 missions this year, and 2 minutes per round, and there is 3 rounds.


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 22:52:50 GMT
      Actually, I think of it as 11 missions, because each
      "instrument" (flag) is a separate target.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: robitics By: Robodemons 10/26/2001 21:19:22 GMT
how many players are there

Discussion: Using 4 motors By: Arctic Raiders 10/30/2001 17:03:49 GMT
Does anyone know if you can build one subassembly with a third motor and one with a fourth motor to switch out quickly? (There would be only three motors on the robot at any one time)Or are we to use the three motors in the kit exclusively?

  1. Message by: Ziegler 10/30/2001 05:21:38 GMT
    You can use only the three motors in the kit. Period.

    Using 4 motors would be putting other teams at a distinct disadvantage if they could not afford to purchase a 4th motor. Allowing the extra motor would also open up a can of worms. If you allowed an extra motor, why not an entirely different robot made of additional pieces, but only one robot is on the table at a time.


    1. Message by: madscientists 10/30/2001 06:42:34 GMT
      You might check with Scott Evans at FIRST, but I would tend to agree that the spare fourth motor would violate rule #13 based on that only three motors are shipped with the kits for the competition.

      13) The robot may consist only of unaltered LEGO pieces from this or a previous year*s FLL kit of robot building pieces. Use of any non-LEGO materials or substances (examples: stickers, tape, glue, oil) may result in disqualification. The following component maximums will be enforced: 3 motors, two touch sensors, 2 light sensors, 1 rotation sensor, and 1 RCX.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    2. Message by: Arctic Raiders 10/30/2001 17:03:49 GMT
      Thanks for the clarification!


Discussion: Why choose RIS or Robolab? By: Indian Grove Four 11/19/2001 09:53:50 GMT
I'm trying to decide whether to teach my team RIS or Robolab. Can anyone think of an advantage of one over the other?

I'm an experienced programmer, but I've only worked with RIS 1.0. Version 2 seems to be an enormous improvement in terms of variables, My Block parameters, etc.

Is there an advantage to Robolab?

Joel

  1. Message by: GLEAPS 09/21/2001 23:20:39 GMT
    I found it easy for my team to use RIS. Robolab does not support all the functionality that RIS does.


    1. Message by: Unibots 09/22/2001 01:00:32 GMT
      Robolab 2.0 is far more powerful than RIS, though it
      lacks the capability of some of the new firmware. Robolab
      2.5 supports the new firmware and the USB tower. (Both
      versions are legal for FLL).

      From my perspective as a programmer for over 15 years,
      RoboLab offers a better analogue to "real" programming than
      RIS. I am also annoyed by limitations of RIS that
      force multiple tasks, each watching a different sensor,
      etc. than straight-forward sequential programming that
      allows "if/else" type constructs, etc. using the
      sensors. I firmly believe RoboLab will leave students
      better prepared for programming with more traditional
      languages than RIS.

      There are FAST line following algorithms that can be
      coded in RoboLab that cannot be coded in RIS.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Elementary Unibots


    2. Message by: FIRST Sharon 09/22/2001 01:37:11 GMT
      I would like to hear what GLEAPS feels RIS can do that RoboLab can't. My coaches debate this every year, and I have opted for RoboLab in the past. But I haven't tried the latest version of RIS. Another problem with RIS is that it won't run on my (old) laptop -- a big, big problem.

      --Jack Gregory


    3. Message by: biohazards 09/22/2001 15:39:38 GMT
      Any idea how to get RoboLab 2.5? I have 2.0 from last year. Any major differences between 2.0 and 2.5?

      Bob


    4. Message by: Unibots 09/22/2001 22:22:23 GMT
      It's available from Pitsco through their latest
      catalog (an insert came with it) I'll post the order
      number in a little bit.

      Major differences: support for the USB tower,
      programming the RCX, the Scout, and the Dacta control
      lab, auto-wiring, support for the new RCX firmware
      functionality, better internet + direct control,
      support for a camera as a sensor (via infrared messages
      and a PC interface to the camera). The functional
      icons have been more hierarchically arranged and the
      interface is a little "cleaner" w.r.t. picking commands.

      All in all, a nice improvement, but not critical to
      FLL unless you need the USB tower (a big help for me
      since my laptop handles USB better than serial).

      -Peter


      1. Message by: Phoenix - Appleton 09/22/2001 22:37:42 GMT
        It sounds like last year's version of Robolab will not work with the firmaware loaded by RIS 2.0. Is this true?

        -Tony


    5. Message by: Unibots 09/22/2001 23:00:08 GMT
      No. It will work fine, the RIS 2.0 firmware is completly backward-compatible with the old firmware, it just adds functionality that an old RIS or Robolab cannot take advantage of.

      -Peter


    6. Message by: Unibots 09/24/2001 16:30:28 GMT
      ROBOLAB 2.5 order numbers from Pitsco:

      CD-ROM: F900054 - $59
      CD-ROM + Site License: F900064 - $199
      Upgrade to 2.5: F990665 - $25
      Getting Started Teacher's Guide III: F900056 - $25

      USB Tower: F979783 - $29

      If you have a site license, I'm not sure if the $25 covers
      the whole upgrade or not, I would guess so. For anyone that has FLL kits, that already comes with ROBOLAB so you only need the 2.5 upgrade. This version includes Programmer
      and Investigator (which used to be separate versions of 2.0).

      When I called last week to order my official copy (I
      was a Beta tester) they said it would be ready in a few
      days.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Kathryn Hughes Robotics Club


    7. Message by: 09/26/2001 18:18:49 GMT
      Deleted


    8. Message by: Unibots 09/26/2001 18:33:11 GMT
      You can upgrade to 2.0 just by installing 2.0 over the old 1.5. 2.0 is a very nice improvement over 1.5, 2.5 is an
      even bigger improvement.

      -Peter


    9. Message by: madscientists 10/01/2001 00:34:03 GMT
      If you are Macintosh based, Robolab becomes a requirement. I do not believe that RIS will run on a Macintosh.

      I've also run Robolab for my teams to give them the option of having the robot perform two tasks at the same time (for example, lowering a lifting mechanism on "B" while moving backward using "A"). I have not tried this with RIS, but I don't believe RIS can run two tasks simulataneously.

      -- Mark, Coach, Mad Scientists, Team 184


      1. Message by: Arctic Clippers 10/15/2001 23:00:12 GMT
        thank you.


    10. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/01/2001 03:21:12 GMT
      RIS of any version can definitely run several tasks at the same time. It really is a feature of the firmware, not the programming environment -- though RIS has been guilty of not providing access to everything in the past, this was never a limitation.

      --Jack Gregory


    11. Message by: The Practitioners 10/09/2001 02:30:09 GMT
      Robo Lab is a vast improvement over RIS. I have programmed for the past two years with the RIS programming, and this year we bought the Tech upgrade just to get Robolab. It is vastly more powerful, but harder to use. You have to learn how to string things together (it doesnt attach programming blocks toghether automatically like RIS), and figure out how to program some of the senors, but it much more productive. I recommend Robolab, but allow some training time for your programmers... email me at thepractitioners1@lycos.com for more information. Please visit our team website at http://thepractitioners.tripod.com
      Thank you.


    12. Message by: roboscouts 10/18/2001 00:48:56 GMT
      Robolab 2.5 is available from Pitsco. Robolab 2.5 contains:

      1. New packaging - At one time you could purchase the programmer section and the investigator section separately for $25 each. Now it looks like both are packaged as one for $59. Even if you do not use investigator, it is fun to
      play with. They do not give discounts to previous owners.
      2. Useability enhancements - The menu hierarchy is easier to use, the menus have an icon search function, icons placed next to each other are autowired, and the help information is better with examples for many commands.
      3. New sensors - Extensive support for the Lego camera and other video cameras including using the camera as another sensor, and support for new DCP sensors like acceleration, lux, barometric pressure, and redox.
      4. New functions - Wait for Rotation without reset, Task priority (with the ability to detect when a higher task has control of the output ports), random fork, load scroll from file, play sound from a container, zero touch sensor, zero light sensor, zero temp sensors, and a formula container that allows simple formula calculations.
      5. New platform support - Control lab interface, Scout, and support for Lego Assembler (LASM) routines (allows you to program your own sensors or functions within Robolab).
      6. Support for most newer firmware functions - Event monitoring, priority-based access control, play tones with frequencies from variables, debugging enhancements, and the ability to switch to another program and run it.
      7. More direct mode and internet mode support.

      I am sure there are many more improvements in version 2.5 that I have have not mentioned or completely missed, like the memory map dump function. Almost all of these new features are of no consequence for younger programmers. Our team tried to use events and then gave up because they kept getting confused.

      RIS was designed to make it easy to program, make it impossible to create a "compile error", and to minimize technical support. As a consequence of this design criteria, some programming tasks are more difficult to program using RIS, and some are downright impossible. This competition is for the kids, and my opinion is let the kids choose the programming environment. My team chose Robolab because they understood it, which is more important than any theoretical "programming power".


    13. Message by: Stone Academy Arctic Wolves 10/24/2001 02:59:49 GMT
      I think that RIS 2.0 has a definite advantage over Robo Lab due to the simplicity of the programming. When I compeated in Volcnic Panic last year I found that it can take days of practice to master Robo Lab. I highly recommened RIS 2.0 over Robo Lab and I hope you will use it.
      -Thought from a 10 year old RIS user


    14. Message by: Mustangs 10/24/2001 03:34:37 GMT
      Robo lab is more powerful and versatile, but it takes longer to learn, if you have gifted / talented kids or older kids that can work on it by themselves - go for it. is much easier to use this year and the tutorial are great.
      A second year coaches opinion


    15. Message by: 10/24/2001 04:27:02 GMT
      Deleted


    16. Message by: Nettle Knights 10/24/2001 04:30:22 GMT
      Robolab is my choice. Robolab is dual platform, and more powerful and versatile. My recommendation is buying a manual from Lego. I have the kids begin by reading and working through examples in the manual. They quickly become familiar with the interface and logic. There is more room to grow with Robolab. There is a reason Lego markets RIS to the toy stores and Robolab to the educational community.


    17. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 09:38:21 GMT
      Our kids are coming along with Robolab. We used it this year because one of our kids uses a Mac and he was the most interested in the programming, so RIS was not an option.

      It does take a bit longer to figure it out, but now that they have been using it for awhile, they like it.

      On the average our team has older kids than the team we coached last year, so Robolab hasn't been a problem.


    18. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 09:40:53 GMT
      RIS 2.0 is a big improvement over RIS 1.0. Much better interface.

      One thing that is different about Lego Mindstorms 2.0 kits compared to earlier versions is that the 2.0 kits only have the manual that tells you how to build the robots. The 1.0 kits had a second manual which included pictures of the commands and explain about programming. So that,imo, is a drawback that they left that out of the later versions. (1.5 didn't have the user manual either). People buy the 2.0 kits and then have no booklets that tell them how to program, just one that tells them how to build. Sure they can look at the CD Rom, but it's also nice to have printed material, especially if you have spent $200 on a kit. Which is part of why there are so many books out there about Lego Mindstorms to fill that gap. It's also why often people will buy Lego Mindstorms kits and then they gather dust after the kids get tired of building because they don't know where to go from there.

      On the other hand, some of the same problems happen with Robolab. You get more of how to build, and more activities to do for the classroom, but there's still a gap of why you are building the robot a particular way.


Discussion: Wheels and Wheel Treads By: Arctic Clippers 11/07/2001 02:54:30 GMT
Quick question....are tire treads better than plain wheels.....answer please......bye bye

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/14/2001 22:40:07 GMT
    It depends on what you want to do. Treads usually are slower but more sure over loose snow. Wheels can slip on the mat and lose you position. So there is no one right answer, I would think you will find both used this year as in previous years. Play with both and let the kids make the decision once they understand the pros and cons to each. There is no wrong answer. You have to use what you think is the best for your team.


    1. Message by: Sherrod 11/07/2001 02:54:30 GMT
      We think that the big rubber wheels are better.We think the wheels are better because treads are to slow.


Discussion: Has anyone found a tool? By: frozen solid 10/17/2001 19:45:20 GMT
has anyone found a tool with which a large number of the tasks may be completed?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/17/2001 19:45:20 GMT
    Ask your question more precisely. If you are asking will one tool do all the tasks, the answer is yes, however, you do have the ability to change "tools" during the match. Just make sure the robot returns to the base to change the "tool". You need to list out the things that need tools and see if one tool can do all or how many tools you need.


Discussion: What Are The Light Sensors For???? By: First Eagle 11/02/2001 20:36:19 GMT
We are a first-time team, and we are currently in the process of building our robot. We got the light-sensor parts, but we don't know what they are for on the robot.

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/02/2001 18:34:30 GMT
    firsteagle -

    The light sensor can be used in a couple of different
    ways, though in the case of FLL what you will probably
    want is to use it as a reflective light sensor so that
    your robot can "see" the different colors on the playing
    field -- this is the typical use.

    Here's how it works: the light sensor returns a value
    to the robot between 0 (no light at all, which you
    will probably never see since some of the light from
    the LED on the sensor will "bleed" into the light
    sensitive element no matter what you do) and 100 (very
    bright light). Hook the light sensor up to a port of
    the RCX and download any program that uses a light sensor
    on that port and run it once(so the RCX knows there's a light sensor there and does the right thing for a powered sensor) if everything went right the red LED on the light
    sensor will come on. Now, press the "view" button on the
    RCX until the triangle points at the port number that the
    light sensor is connected to, you should see the numbers
    returned by the sensor.

    Now, hold the sensor so the active end points down at
    the playing field, hold it over the white part, you'll
    probably see a number close to 50, then hold it over
    a blue line, you'll probably see a number around 30 (less
    light is reflected back by the blue line), move the sensor
    *slowly* from blue to white, note how the numbers change
    as the sensor sees less blue and more white.

    Using a single light sensor, it is possible to write a
    program to follow a line, look around on the forum here
    and you'll probably see at least one message from me on
    the topic of how to follow a line.

    The *other* thing a light sensor can be used for is to
    seek light or dark. In this case, you don't really want
    the light shining from the sensor, so you would typically
    put a black 1x2 beam (with one hole) in front of the
    sensor (hold it in place with a plate on bottom and
    on top) as it happens (as usually happens because LEGO
    thinks about this sort of thing) the hole in the beam
    lines up exactly with the light sensitive part of
    the sensor and blocks most of the red light. Now you
    have something that will detect bright sources of light
    in the area around you. So far, this aspect of the light
    sensor has not come into play in FLL, but there are
    other challenges where it is useful for the robot to
    seek a bright light.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: First Eagle 11/02/2001 20:36:19 GMT
      thanks


Discussion: Navigating with Light Sensors By: Sherrod 11/10/2001 00:39:32 GMT
We are trying to navigate with the light sensor, but all it has been doing is spinning

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 03:36:26 GMT
    That would depend on your program and how your motors are wired. Can you drive the motor on each side of your robot forward and have the robot drive forward, or does it spin?

    -Peter


    1. Message by: Sherrod 11/09/2001 02:40:55 GMT
      Well,we need to find a program to navigate with.


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 00:39:32 GMT
      Hi Sherrod,

      I understand you need a program to navigate with, but how
      you navigate depends a lot on how your robot is designed.
      If you have something where the left and right side of the
      robot are powered by different motors (this is the most
      common design) then you should start by making sure your
      motors are wired so that when both are told by a program to
      drive forward the robot goes forward, rather than spinning
      on itself.

      It's a real common mistake, if you wire two motors the
      same way, but put one on the left and one on the right,
      one will be rotating "backwards" and the other "forwards"
      relative to the "front" and "back" of the robot. That's
      because one motor is turned around from the other, they
      are both rotating clockwise or counter-clockwise, but
      that translates to forward for one and back for the other.

      For ease of programming it's easiest if you make sure one
      is wired with the opposite polarity (turn one of the
      2x2 wire connectors around 180 degrees and snap it back
      onto the terminal) so that the motors go the same way
      (relative to the robot) on opposite sides of the robot,
      then when you tell both motors to drive forward, the
      robot will drive forward.

      As for navigating with the light sensor, the trick is
      to realize that when the light sensor is over the edge
      of the line it sees a value that is between the value
      it sees when it is directly over the line and the value
      it sees when it is directly over the white, so if you see
      something too dark (all the way over the line) you turn
      one way, and if you see something too light, you turn
      the other way.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: ideas for getting medical supplies first By: Sherrod 11/16/2001 06:12:45 GMT
look at title

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/16/2001 06:12:45 GMT
    Get there fast!

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers



Folder: Rules 12/28/2001 22:57:33 GMT



Folder: lifts 10/17/2001 22:33:24 GMT
Can we drop the lift with the barrels into the hut?

Discussion: fuel barrels By: Dragon Devils 11/26/2001 20:59:59 GMT
where can we put the fuel barrels? do they have to be under the roof of the storage shed?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/14/2001 22:41:40 GMT
    Anywhere in the hut (any of the three areas).


    1. Message by: sjcs 10/15/2001 21:58:01 GMT
      can we put the whole lift in the hut


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/16/2001 20:16:02 GMT
      By lift is "assume" you mean a container that holds all 10 barrels. That would be allowed from what we have seen in the past.


    3. Message by: Santa's Little Helpers 10/29/2001 15:54:19 GMT
      Hey, we're new at this and we could use some help but anyway, are you allowed to actually take the fuel barrels and take them off of your robot manually or will that give us a deduction of points?


    4. Message by: Supergirls 10/29/2001 18:33:02 GMT
      Hello all, we are a new team and were wondering what you meant when you said that the barrels could be placed on a "lift." Does that mean you can build a platform and place the barrels on top of it? Also we assumed that the Hut meant that the barrels should go directly under the over-hang and not the two separate areas on either side?

      Thanks,

      Julie, Coach Super girls


    5. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/29/2001 20:25:30 GMT
      Santa's Little Helpers - once the robot leaves the base, touching it or any object on the field will cost you points. DO NOT TOUCH YOUR ROBOT ONCE IT LEAVES THE BASE. Only retrieve it if it is stuck (you will loose 5 points for each retrieval).

      Supergirls - You can pre configure the barrels any way that you want as long as you use legal Lego pieces. You can rubber band all 10 together, you can use axles to combine them together, all of this and any thing else your mind comes up with prior to the start of the 2 min. The rules only state that you will get 5 points for each barrel in the hut (any place within the yellow bricks - all three areas) or supported by the hut and not any supports touching the mat outside of the hut. So drop them one by one or two by two etc or all at once. Barrels can be combined or placed inside a container, as long as you use legal Lego pieces.

      --Dave Kolberg


    6. Message by: arctic droidz 11/06/2001 21:28:45 GMT
      You can lift them and put them in the hut manually, but deduction of points will be made. But you can load them on the robot without any deduction of points. If you do make a lift, it can not be out of the base...it's a new rule. If there's some kind of lift out of the base there will be a deduction of I think 5 points. And you'll be made to take the lift off.


    7. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 01:45:21 GMT
      Arctic Droidz? Where are you getting this information?

      It's quite simple, before you press "run" ALL parts of
      your robot and anything it is carrying MUST be entirely
      within the base. If you have a lift that extends in front
      of your robot's body, the lift is a part of the robot and
      it must be entirely in the base as well, if it is holding
      barrels, the barrels have to be in base.

      The only source of point penalties are the following:
      Touch your robot outside of the base: -5 (up to a max
      penalty of -25)
      Knock down one or both polar bears: -10

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    8. Message by: Team Arctic Blizzard 11/07/2001 07:37:29 GMT
      Can someone give us more details about "pre-configuring" the barrels? For instance: how much time do you get to do this? (I had thought you wouldn't be allowed to touch them before the clock started)

      Thanks!


    9. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 08:01:38 GMT
      You have a few moments (usually under a minute) to get
      your robot set for the first run, so you can use that
      time to pre-configure your barrels. You are definitely
      allowed to touch things in the base prior to the start of
      the round.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    10. Message by: Skuas 11/26/2001 20:59:59 GMT
      Seems I remember seeing somewhere in the forum that we might be able to preconfigure the barrels and bring them to the table. Scott at FLL has just informed me that, in fact, you must do any configuring at the table. You can bring the parts needed but not the barrels. Now maybe the team will understand why I emphasize simplicity!

      Marie
      Skuas Coach
      the team of global thinkers and big ideas but not so good at details!


Discussion: Barrels By: 792 10/16/2001 20:08:57 GMT
Does anyone know if it matters where the barrels go into the storage hut?

  1. Message by: Unibots 09/26/2001 00:20:01 GMT
    It doesn't. Though five will already be in the segment
    closest to the base.

    -Peter


    1. Message by: icecats3 10/03/2001 22:47:37 GMT
      Does anyone know if the team can move the barrels from the robot to the storage shed, or if the robot has to "dump" them in?


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/04/2001 00:36:37 GMT
      The rules only allow touching the scientists. So you would not get the points if players touched the barrels once they left the start area.


    3. Message by: 860 10/15/2001 23:54:01 GMT
      Does anyone know if it is ok to dump the barrels in the hut by hand if the Robot pulls the hut over the base line?


    4. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/16/2001 20:08:57 GMT
      Both the mission and the rules (rule # 6) state that the robot must leave the base to performa a mission. This is my opinion and you should contact evans@usfirst.org to verify if your strategy is legal.


Discussion: hitting Polar bears By: roboraiders 11/06/2001 21:40:15 GMT
Do you still lose points if you hit the polar bears with your robot after rescuing the scientists? Can anyone help us?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/08/2001 19:37:20 GMT
    The mission states "If either bear or both bears are harmed (knocked over) in any mission, the penalty is -10 points." This would indicate that if the bears are knocked over within the two minute period, you would lose 10 points.


    1. Message by: Vertical Limit 10/24/2001 00:57:45 GMT
      Are we reading this mission correctly, the robot only needs to get to the section where the scientists are? At that point, a team member can manually put them on the robot and then the robot can return to base???


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 04:52:22 GMT
      Vertical Limit -- Yes! You are reading it correctly, I have verification direct from First on that, the only thing is
      that the kids MAY NOT TOUCH THE ROBOT, so it has to wait to be loaded under program control and then return to base with the scientists, no hitting a run button or anything.

      -Peter


    3. Message by: R.O.O.G. 11/04/2001 05:33:53 GMT
      What is the definition of the scientists' block of ice? Is it the area surrounded by the wide black lines, or is it bordered by the narrower lines of the target?


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/05/2001 05:30:32 GMT
      The wide lines, the target lines "aren't there" as far
      as the ice is concerned. This was a clarification I
      asked from FLL directly a while back and that was the
      response I got.

      -Peter


    5. Message by: arctic droidz 11/06/2001 21:40:15 GMT
      In any mission if you knock any of the polar bears down, you'll lose 10 points for each bear.


Discussion: Field Insturment By: Arctic Angel2 11/26/2001 20:56:19 GMT
What happens if the instrument touches 2 lines at once and would we get points if it lands on its side in a ring?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/11/2001 19:10:22 GMT
    The rules state that points will be awarded for the smallest ring that is being touched by the sensor at the end of the round. More than likely the instrument will be touching 2 or more rings. It could be touching all three rings, in which case you will still get the 35 points


    1. Message by: Joanne 10/23/2001 00:59:00 GMT
      we understand the rules the same way. but what if there is a piece overhanging the third cicle. do you still get 35 points?


    2. Message by: Bama Babes 10/23/2001 07:27:31 GMT
      Can we "push" the field instrument to the ring or we have to "transport" it?


    3. Message by: Unibots 10/23/2001 23:29:06 GMT
      Joanne -- You get points for the highest value ring that *any* part of the instrument overlaps, so in your example you would get 35 points if there was any part of the instrument in the center ring.

      Bama Babes - "pushing" is "transporting"! There are no rules as to how you get an object to a goal point, other than the rule indicating that it has to be as a direct result of the *robot's action* not your action that does it. For instance, last year someone built a really long wall out of LEGO beams to block lava from getting into
      the village (-5 points for each lava marble in the village!)
      this was legal if the *robot* caused the wall to fall into
      place, it was illegal if they themselves put the wall where
      it needed to go. So at the beginning of the round, they
      had the robot holding the wall vertically, as soon as they
      hit run, the robot moved and stopped holding the wall up and
      it would fall into place -- perfectly legal.

      So anything your devious minds can come up with to
      get the new instrument to the right place is fine as
      long as it happens as a result of something the robot does!

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    4. Message by: Bama Babes 10/24/2001 01:45:57 GMT
      Peter,

      Thanks for the input.


    5. Message by: Arctic Dolphins 10/25/2001 04:53:20 GMT
      Do we need 3 field instruments or do we move one from different locations?


    6. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 04:54:45 GMT
      There are 3 field instruments (the red flag things) and one
      "new instrument" the new instrument needs to be moved by
      the robot from base to the target rings on the far west
      side of the field. The 3 field instruments need to be
      "read" by releasing the flag.

      -Peter


    7. Message by: The Topological Conundrums 11/04/2001 03:45:14 GMT
      Does the instrument need to be standing to get points or is it O.K. if it's toppled on its side?


    8. Message by: Unibots 11/05/2001 05:31:10 GMT
      It can be toppled on its side.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    9. Message by: Skuas 11/21/2001 01:26:41 GMT
      My kids have a question re: the instrument to be delivered. As Peter mentioned in another area, the robot does not lose points for not being in base at the end of the two minute round. So.....if the instrument being delivered is ON the robot within the smallest circle, does it receive the full points? OR does it need to be actually on the mat? Thanks!

      Marie Hopper
      Skuas Coach


    10. Message by: Unibots 11/21/2001 01:30:16 GMT
      Ooh! That's a tricky one. I would send that question
      to evans@usfirst.org, but I can hazard a guess that it
      would NOT count, based on previous experience with a
      certain gas sensor from last year's challenge :-)

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


      1. Message by: Skuas 11/26/2001 20:56:19 GMT
        Ok got official word back from Scott at FLL. The rules are that the instrument can have any part on or over the ring to be awarded points. So if the robot also happens to be there it really doesn't matter as long as some portion of the instrument is overhanging the target area. Hmmmm. My kids are happy now!

        Marie
        Skuas Coach


    11. Message by: Roborisk 11/21/2001 13:05:29 GMT
      I have a question regarding the number of times you can
      achieve a set task i.e. If the flags are all let up on one round can you do the same task on the second round (as the table is reset each time) will you get the points for this?

      Louise - Roborisk (UK)


    12. Message by: Unibots 11/21/2001 23:22:57 GMT
      Each round is completely independent of the other rounds,
      In most tournaments, the best round will be counted for
      the purposes of determining the winner of the "performance"
      awards.

      The only time other rounds will come into play is in the case of a tie-break, in which case the average score over
      the three rounds is usually used as a tie-break.

      For example, last year, the Unibots scored 185, 180, and 190
      points in rounds 1,2,3 respectively. Our score of 190 put us in a six-way tie for second place, our average score of
      185 put us solidly in second place. Total possible points
      last year was 215.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    13. Message by: BOB 11/22/2001 06:28:35 GMT
      Those are great scores. Our best score last year was 105. That scientist is what got us. We had a program that used a light sensor and it worked great at home, every time we were able to get him and get the 75 points. But at the tournament, lighting conditions were different, so it didn't work. We modified our program between rounds but still couldn't get him. Our final placement was 18th out of about 60 teams. If we had been able to get the scientist, it would have been 180 and I'm sure would have placed higher. Many teams had problems with getting that scientist and since he was worth 75 points, that did make a difference in placement and scores.

      When we heard that this year's program required light sensors, we were a little nervous. We're crossing our fingers that it all works the same as on our practice table at home.

      At the Arkansas event we went to last year, it was an all day thing and here's how they ran it:

      Each round was independent. They did a few practice rounds to give everyone a feel for it, and then went for real.

      They did 3 rounds to determine what teams would be in the finals. As each round progressed teams would move up and down the scale, depending upon what their score was for that round. At the end of the 3 rounds, the best of your 3 scores is what counted. Then they took the top 30 something teams into the finals.

      For the finals:

      There were double elimination rounds, so each time you were facing different teams. And a second set of teams was going at the same time at a different set of tables. The team that bumped us out finally only did so by 5 points. What counted was what team you are up against in a round when you get the final rounds. Eventually it got down to 2 teams going head-to-head and the winner was the performance winner.

      Other events may do it differently, but this is how they did it at the one I was at last year.

      The thing that I really noticed about the top teams was that their robots performed like clockwork every single time. So that's why it's good to practice over and over again before you go to a competition.

      Susan - Team BOB (TX)


    14. Message by: Roborisk 11/22/2001 15:19:22 GMT
      Ok,

      So let me see if I have this straight the idea is to achieve the max you can in a round i.e. all tasks if possible and not to split the tasks into 3 rounds ?

      Please confirm as this is very important as we had not understood this but thankfully still have time before our finals in January to do something about this

      Louise - Roborisk (UK)


    15. Message by: Unibots 11/22/2001 19:49:10 GMT
      Louise --

      Right! As many points as you can in a SINGLE round,
      points do not add across rounds.

      It *is* possible to do all tasks in a single round
      though it is tight -- do things in the right order to
      maximize your points if you don't have enough time
      to get your last set of missions done, etc.

      -Peter


    16. Message by: Roborisk 11/23/2001 11:11:25 GMT
      Unibots,

      Got it thanks !

      Louise - Roborisk (UK)


Discussion: Medical Supply By: Rockin' Robots 2 12/28/2001 22:57:33 GMT
If YOUR ROBOT knocks the Medical Supply on the other teams side, does the team get 50 points even if they didn't knock it?

  1. Message by: Unibots 10/11/2001 23:52:03 GMT
    I would think so, that's usually how FIRST likes things.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: 10/12/2001 00:00:24 GMT
      Deleted


    2. Message by: Botcats 10/20/2001 16:46:00 GMT
      what do you think the best way to compleat this challeng is?


    3. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/22/2001 18:45:45 GMT
      Fast


    4. Message by: Joanne 10/23/2001 01:03:33 GMT
      YOU BET!!!! if the suplies end up on the other side it is just like the other team knocking it over. but what if the barrel is in the middle of the two sides? would each team get 25 points? what happens if you knock the supplies on to your side but over the end of the table? the rules don't state it has to be on the table at the end of the round.


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 10/23/2001 01:41:04 GMT
        Interesting point. We received a Q&A list from our tournament organizer that states that it's the condition of the playing field at the end of the two minutes that detemines the score. Any missions that are accomplished but later "undone" by the robot (e.g., tossing the medical container onto the floor) are scored as they appear at the end of the round. That would mean, in this example, that neither team gets the points.

        Mary Kay
        Coach, St. Joe's #1


    5. Message by: Bama Babes 10/23/2001 07:26:08 GMT
      After we knocked the medical supply to our side, can we ask the judge to move it so it won't be in the way of the rest of the missions? Or the medical supply will just have to stay where it had landed?


    6. Message by: Unibots 10/23/2001 23:30:20 GMT
      Med supply has to stay where it lands, because points are assessed at the end of the round, if the barrel isn't on your table at the end of the round, no points!

      Leaves all kinds of devious "medical supply theft" strategies :-)

      -Peter


    7. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/24/2001 03:52:30 GMT
      As a referee, I would give credit for a barrel that fell on your side, and for one that was removed by request.

      This is one of the few times I have disagreed with Peter Unibot!

      --Jack Gregory


    8. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 04:56:03 GMT
      At least we disagree on a minor issue! :-) Personally I'd love it if the barrel could be removed -- Which of us gets
      to bug Scott this time? :-)

      -Peter


    9. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/27/2001 06:07:50 GMT
      The barrel can just be put in some out of the way corner, so I don't think it is a problem.

      The one my kids asked is: "How it it scored when the barrel flies off the table entirely?"

      There is always something.

      --Jack Gregory


    10. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/29/2001 20:06:09 GMT
      I would have to say that no one gets the points. It clearly states that the barrel must go in your side of the playing field.

      --Dave Kolberg


    11. Message by: 860 10/30/2001 23:21:20 GMT
      I would think that it would be hard for the barrel to completely "fly" off the table. First off, the barrel doesn't have wings. Unless you completely lift the barrel up and throw it with your robot, I doubt it will go off the table because it is surrounded by 2x4s.


    12. Message by: Unibots 10/30/2001 23:24:05 GMT
      Before one of my teams geared their liftarm down so that
      it moved at a reasonable speed (they had it 1:1 to the
      motors, I decided to let them learn from experience, since
      they'd read about gearing :-) they came down on the
      medical barrel platform fast enough to throw the
      barrel comepletely off the table, so it's possible :-)

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    13. Message by: FIRST Sharon 11/02/2001 06:11:22 GMT
      As a referee, I would not take off if a barrel went flying. After all, speed is paramount in that mission, and a slow arm could cost the points. So I expect to see some real slammers and as long as the barrel goes obviously to one side, it will be scored as mission accomplished.

      The thing is practically a launcher if you hit it right.

      --Jack Gregory


    14. Message by: Roborisk 11/16/2001 14:57:23 GMT
      what happens to the table at the end of each round - are all objects reset exactly as per the plan or left as the end of the round finds them for the next round ?
      -Louise UK Roborisk - new commers to the firstlegoleauge


    15. Message by: Unibots 11/16/2001 18:14:29 GMT
      Everything is reset at the end of each round. Note that it is very rare for a team to run two rounds in rapid
      succession, you get your round 1 and everyone else gets
      their round 1 before and after you, then round 2 is
      run for all teams, then round 3. Unless the tournament
      is very small, the team on the other side of the table
      from you should be different each round.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


      1. Message by: Roborisk 11/20/2001 13:26:05 GMT
        Thanks Unibots

        our final is not until January 10th in Bristol UK it is part of a pilot scheme by firslegoleauge to see if the idea is a hit in the UK. Good luck with your team

        Louise - Roborisk organiser


    16. Message by: Snow C.A.T.S. 11/22/2001 00:06:36 GMT
      An interesting question from the team: If for some unforeseen reason the robot gets stuck near the medicine barrel and needs to be retrieved how can it be picked up by the two attending team members if their arms aren't long enough? The dual table arrangement makes it impossible for short arms (mine, too) to reach a location near the medicine barrel.

      Jim
      Coach - Snow C.A.T.S.


    17. Message by: BOB 11/22/2001 06:35:38 GMT
      I would assume if they can't reach it, then a referee could do it for you or maybe a coach.

      I think if you have to stop to get the robot, the referee would be standing there anyway.


    18. Message by: Snow C.A.T.S. 11/22/2001 07:43:57 GMT
      But doesn't the time keep ticking...? Any delay in asking for assistance eats away at your 2 minutes. This is out of the kids hands (control) when this occurs.


    19. Message by: FIRST Sharon 11/26/2001 15:55:10 GMT
      No, it isn't out of the kids hands. Make the robot more reliable! This is the whole point. If this really were the artic, and the robot fails, people die.

      Referees can help retrieve, but they don't want to break the robot. If you know you are going to maybe need help, talk it over with the table ref before the round.

      --Jack Gregory


    20. Message by: RIVER SCHOOL 12/28/2001 22:57:33 GMT
      Another medical supply story.

      My team programmed our robot to try and get the medical supply barrel a second time in case the robot missed on the first try. During practice, on the first try, the robot knocked the medical supply on our side and it landed on the robot's claw. Since the robot was programmed to try a second time, the barrel went flying out of the claw onto the other side. Everyone had a great laugh. We were so happy to discover this flaw in practice rather than losing the points in competition.


Discussion: FUELBARRELS By: roboknights 10/25/2001 04:56:39 GMT


  1. Message by: roboknights 10/12/2001 17:13:46 GMT
    WHY DO YOU ONLY ONE FUEL BARREL WITH A YELLOW TOP AND BOTTOM.


    1. Message by: roboknights 10/12/2001 17:15:50 GMT
      WHY DO YOU ONLY HAVE ONE FUEL BARREL WITH A YELLOW TOP AND BOTTOM?


    2. Message by: icecats3 10/12/2001 17:53:55 GMT
      That is not a fuel barrel, it is the medical supply container.


    3. Message by: Bama Babes 10/24/2001 01:49:17 GMT
      When you put the barrel in the hut, does it have to be upright or it can be lay on its side?


    4. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 04:56:39 GMT
      It can lay on its side, whatever works for you!

      -Peter


Discussion: Starting point? By: Arctic Dolphins 10/25/2001 04:58:07 GMT
On the map there is a starting point (wherever that is), but what if your robot is really, realy, really, big and it doesn't fit on the starting point? Do you have to make it smaller?

  1. Message by: Arctic Snow Monsters 10/24/2001 04:41:01 GMT
    I believe the rules say that your robot must start out completely inside the "home base". Therefore, my guess is that you may have to make it smaller.

    Coach Wilson
    Wilkins-2
    dpwilson@ix.netcom.com


    1. Message by: Unibots 10/25/2001 04:58:07 GMT
      Yep. The robot must begin every mission from "within"
      base, imagine invisible walls rising up from the lines
      that define the "base" ship, no part of the robot
      (or anything the robot is carrying) can extend past those lines before you hit the "run" button

      -Peter


Discussion: Mission By: TKSPANTHERS 10/25/2001 05:16:21 GMT
When the robot leaves base for a mission, can it accomplish part of its mission and run through the base (without stopping) and finish the remainder of the mission?

  1. Message by: madscientists 10/25/2001 05:16:21 GMT
    The robot is allowed to move through the base without stopping.

    - Mark, Coach, Team 184


Discussion: Starting point? By: Arctic Dolphins 10/14/2001 21:00:57 GMT
On the map there is a starting point (wherever that is), but what if your robot is really, realy, really, big and it doesn't fit on the starting point? Do you have to make it smaller?

  1. Message by: Ziegler 10/14/2001 21:00:57 GMT
    Yes, you have to make it smaller. The robot must fit completely within the base, which is the area that is shaped like a ship. This doesn't just mean the wheels or treads, it means any part of the robot, including robotic arms. Imagine that there is an invisible wall extending straight up from the outline of the "ship" (base). Your robot must start completely within that area. If you have a robotic arm, it can start in an upright position and then fall into place.


Discussion: Launching Missals By: Arctic Thunder 10/28/2001 17:47:44 GMT
Are you able to launch off the robot some kind of missal to get a flag?
-Nick of the Arctic Thunders (Blue was a temporary name)

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/11/2001 19:17:02 GMT
    The rules do not stipulate that you can not. So yes you can use some kind of missal to get a flag, but this would likely not be a reliable method, but good luck.


    1. Message by: Penguinators 10/12/2001 23:07:55 GMT
      maybe you could launch a wheel and it would work reasonably well....


      1. Message by: 860 10/15/2001 23:59:15 GMT
        What is a missal? I thought it was missile . . .


    2. Message by: madscientists 10/17/2001 04:28:30 GMT
      Consideration to this rule may be needed for missle launching:

      5) All robot action must be programmed, and initiated by pressing the green RUN button.

      I would take this to mean that any missle launcher must be triggered by some mechanical action on the robot. The team would not be able to use a spring loaded mechanical throwing arm that is pulled back by a team member and then released.

      If you are considering using a missle launcher, a check with evans@usfirst.org might be wise to confirm that the design is within the rules.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    3. Message by: Joanne 10/27/2001 20:13:45 GMT
      i think that just a motor moving a small piece would be enough to slip by the rule


    4. Message by: Unibots 10/28/2001 17:47:44 GMT
      That's not "slipping by" that's fine, you can load your
      launcher and the robot can move slightly to launch and you
      are in the clear. That's part of the intent of the
      rule.

      -Peter


Discussion: Loading the scientists By: Botcats 11/30/2001 07:35:39 GMT
When we load the scientists onto the robot, is it ok to just stick them on top of the robot using their lego feet? This way we don't have to build anything special to hold them.

Thanks,
Botcats

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/05/2001 05:31:35 GMT
    Yep!

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: Reeds Brook Rebels 11/28/2001 21:33:53 GMT
      After we have put the scientists on our robot, can we pick up the robot and bring it back to base and still have it count as getting the scientists?

      Thanx
      Reeds Brook Rebels


    2. Message by: BOB 11/29/2001 08:06:22 GMT
      I don't think so. Once you have loaded the scientists (without touching the robot, place them on top of the robot without touching it), then your robot needs to go back to base on it's own.

      In the Q&A section of this website it mentions how each team is given 25 points in the form of 5 barrels in the hut. Each time you have to touch the robot,one of the barrels is taken away, so the more you touch the robot, the less of your bonus you get to keep.


    3. Message by: Unibots 11/30/2001 07:35:39 GMT
      Reeds --

      No! On any "retrieval" mission (in this case the
      ice core and the scientists) the ROBOT must, under
      it's own control, return the item to base, you get
      credit for the return when the ITEM (not the robot)
      crosses the baseline, so be careful not to touch
      the robot until the item(s) it is carrying have crossed
      the baseline or you won't get the points.

      If you have to retrieve the robot after it has picked
      up an item worth points if it crosses the baseline,
      the items will be removed from the table and you will NOT
      get credit for them.

      -Peter


Discussion: Long arm By: blackstone Valley Regional H.S. 11/15/2001 23:15:04 GMT
Tell me if This is legal. I am only asking this now knowing it is close to the end. If your robot never leaves the ship and has a arm that goes across the plane were the men are standing can you bring the men back to the ship were the robot is.

  1. Message by: Frostbyte 11/15/2001 05:58:47 GMT
    It's my understanding that the robot would have to power the arm. You have to push the green button and the robot has to do something to make the arm move to the proper place. If it just falls, without robot power, then it wouldn't be legal.


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/15/2001 20:36:08 GMT
      If the robot makes it fall, that counts as legal, but in
      the case of the scientists you would have to load them
      onto the arm and then the robot would have to bring
      the scientists across the baseline under its power...

      -Peter


    2. Message by: Liquid Stealth 11/15/2001 23:15:04 GMT
      Blackstone Valley Regional H.S. Team,

      You're going to need a LOT of torque to raise the three scientists with your long arm.
      Make sure you take into account the "weather balloon".
      Good Luck!

      DanR


Discussion: labeling sensor wires By: Arctic Clippers 11/16/2001 06:10:45 GMT


  1. Message by: Arctic Clippers 11/16/2001 03:45:16 GMT
    I would like to know if it is against the rules to mark the sensor wires for easier identification.
    For example, could you put an A'" on the plug the attaches to the RCX to signify motor A.
    any insight would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks
    Karen


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/16/2001 06:10:45 GMT
      In general, the prohibition against non-lego pieces
      (including tape, etc.) is to prevent a weak construction
      by being strenthened by non-lego materials (think about
      the Golden Gate bridge held together with duct tape :-)
      so I doubt any official would object to tape that
      is only wrapped around a SINGLE wire (multiple wires
      would be another case of using non-lego materials
      to solve an engineering problem -- the routing of wires)
      but it is *officially* against the rules, so you would
      have to be prepared to remove whatever if asked.

      My teams have a thin strip of label tape on their
      RCX to identify their team and their robot.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers



Folder: Stickiness of mat 12/07/2001 18:14:06 GMT
I have noticed that the humidity of the day can change the turning of robots with treads. If you have treads I would advise that you use a sensor it tell the robot how far to turn instead of just making a set time.


Folder: What is the Hypothesis 11/27/2001 21:30:51 GMT
What is the hypothesis presentation?

Discussion: What do you do for the hypothesis? By: VH Vikings 11/27/2001 21:30:51 GMT
WE NEED HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 11/27/2001 21:30:51 GMT
    Vikings,

    Check out the FLL website on the hypothesis presentation (it's a PowerPoint presentation), plus the links on their opening page. The hypothesis presentation is about a 3-min. period during which a couple of team members tell the judges whether they think that global warming is a natural cycle or a human-made problem.

    Good luck!

    Mary Kay
    Coach, St. Joe's #1


Discussion: Text Version of 2001 Challenge Is Here By: Arctic Dolphins 10/06/2001 05:07:40 GMT
The Power Point presentation of the 2001 Challenge from the web site looks nice, but it doesn't print well and uses a lot of paper. So, I created a simple text version for anyone that is interested. Just copy it from here (highlight it and then right-click) and paste it into your word processor.

Freshwater Dolphins Eureka, CA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

FIRST* LEGO* League
2001 Challenge

ARCTIC IMPACT

Confidential Briefing by Secretary of Climate Change Commission (CCC)

The Secretary of the Climate Change Commission, addressed the status of the Expedition - ARCTIC IMPACT. The following information is strictly confidential and critical in nature:

This Expedition, the largest, most comprehensive project ever undertaken to study global climate changes, was undertaken by several organizations from around the world, in support of the CCC's position, to determine and address potential impacts on humanity. FLL's completion of the Expedition Missions to research, record, measure, and determine such climate changes will contribute to save our planet and it's future.

* Dr. Justin Case, Expedition - ARCTIC IMPACT Team Leader - currently on location
* Over 200 Expedition members - currently on location via Icebreaker

Expedition Objectives:
* study global climate changes via water-current and temperature patterns
* shifts in ice leads
* Wildlife and natural habitat
* launch the latest in meteorological survey equipment

An Arctic Storm of immense proportions is heading straight for the Expedition research site; destruction potential:
Total Annihilation
* Lives at risk due to shifting ice leads
* Loss of time-sensitive experiments
* Millions of dollars of vital equipment demolished

Last transmission from Expedition received on 09/14/01 at 0600 hours, Eastern Standard Time.

Due to the unexpected storm, the Expedition team, led by Dr. Justin Case, was ordered to evacuate the camp...
* Several time-sensitive experiments are in jeopardy...
* Millions of dollars of vital equipment could be destroyed
* Vital information about the earth's temperature shifts will be lost

Although the majority of the crew is securely aboard the ship, Dr. Justin Case, and 2 of his counterparts, are still in the field. They last reported from the Wildlife Study Area where the unpredictable Polar Bear has been sighted.

Their safety is a grave concern due to:
* The brewing storm's imminent arrival
* Roaming Polar Bears

Calling All FLL Teams
For Immediate Response!

Research Location: The North Pole
Expedition: ARCTIC IMPACT

ARCTIC IMPACT - the FLL assignment

* Evacuate Dr. Justin Case and 2 of his fellow Expedition Crew members and return them to the ship
* Secure time-sensitive experiments to save the expedition objectives

Supporting Organizations of
Expedition - ARCTIC IMPACT

FLL is not alone in their quest. The following organizations are standing by to assist the FLL teams with their Mission Objectives
* SHEBA (Surface Heat Emissions Budget Association) Project - experts in studying global climate changes
* ONR (Office of Naval Research)
* NASA (National Aeronautical and Space Administration)
* Key International Experts on Climate Change patterns

ARCTIC IMPACT
The FLL Hypothesis assignment

To further the efforts of the expedition - ARCTIC IMPACT, FLL teams will use their expertise to analyze the data and theorize whether the cause of global climate changes are directly related to human interference, or if the Earth is experiencing a natural patterned cycle.

Due to the extreme conditions and harsh, unpredictable environment of the Arctic region, FLL will rely on their expertise in robotics and arctic conditions to face the storm.
The world's only hope for completing the Missions in time to save Dr. Justin Case, valuable information, millions of dollars worth of state-of-the-art equipment, and potentially, the

  1. Message by: Skuas 10/03/2001 19:50:41 GMT
    Thanks for the very helpful document - I have been unable to see the powerpoint version for some reason.

    This post ends rather abruptly. Is there more to the text? If so, could you be so kind as to post the remainder?

    Gratefully,

    Marie Hopper in NC


    1. Message by: BOB 10/04/2001 08:22:45 GMT
      You can get at Powerpoint if you have Microsoft Office or some other program that will process it.
      Most of our team members couldn't get it to work either.

      It's too bad they didn't do it as PDF file, everyone can read those. And you can download PDF readers for free. That's pretty much becoming a standard for documents intended to be printed out.

      There's probably a limit on the size of messages so the post was cut off.

      Please repost it in several parts. Thanks.


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/04/2001 08:51:21 GMT
      Here's a PDF version of the slides, followed by a PDF version of the slide outline (just the text, no pictures, etc.)


    3. Message by: Unibots 10/04/2001 08:53:24 GMT
      Here's a PDF version of the slide outline, followed by a ZIP with the PDF version of the slides, assuming it lets
      me post it, since it's kinda large (1.2 MB zipped, 1.9MB
      unzipped)


    4. Message by: Unibots 10/04/2001 08:56:16 GMT
      Here's a try at the zipped PDF of the slides.

      -Peter


    5. Message by: 10/05/2001 00:10:19 GMT
      Deleted


    6. Message by: icecats3 10/06/2001 05:07:40 GMT
      You can also just open the PowerPoint Presentation, select print (from the file menu) nad near the bottom left is a pull down menu to choose what to print. Choose Outline view and you will get just the text, no images.

      Lowell Ziegler


Discussion: Artic Pictures By: Lakeview lasers 11/09/2001 18:06:01 GMT
Were can you find pictures for lego artic?

  1. Message by: arctic droidz 11/09/2001 18:06:01 GMT
    on this website., you just got to look around.


Discussion: Hypothesis motivation By: Oak Creek Ice 10/31/2001 21:59:49 GMT
Our team of ten 4th - 6th graders has a great deal of enthusiasm for developing our robot, but has no desire to understand the science behind the challenge. They just want to work with the robot. Any ideas for motivating the kids to complete the hypothesis assignment and making the assignment more appealing to the kids?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/09/2001 23:02:33 GMT
    Remind them that you need the hypothesis to get the top awards. Winning the challenge only gets you one award. Last year was our rookie year and we won 5 awards including the directors award. We did this by concentrating on the entire event and not just the challenge. We make all members learn the hypothesis. (Some bribery with cookies has helped, they get cookies for getting questions right).


    1. Message by: robogirls 10/31/2001 21:59:49 GMT
      Where can I find info on the Arctic circle cracking up.


Discussion: Does anybody know of some good global warming websites? By: RoboScorps 11/19/2001 22:38:20 GMT
We need some more sites to look at. Does anydody know of some good sites?

  1. Message by: Snow C.A.T.S. 10/30/2001 04:36:04 GMT
    You can try these. Some are from the FLL web site but others are from searches.....

    http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/regions/central/arcexplor/explor_e.htm

    http://www.vehiclechoice.org/climate/cutler.html

    http://www.sierraclub.org/population/reports/globalwarming.asp

    http://www.unfccc.de/resource/beginner.pdf

    http://www.pbs.org/saf/1103/features/deepfreeze2.htm


    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/02/0212_climate2.html

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/02/0206_climate1.html

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2000/12/122900inuits.html

    http://www.globalwarming.org/



    http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,10358-412,00.shtml

    http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,10363-412,00.shtml

    http://sheba.apl.washington.edu/

    http://sheba.apl.washington.edu/links/links.html

    http://www.met.nps.navy.mil/~guestps/sheba/

    http://www.atd.ucar.edu/sssf/projects/sheba/

    http://www.met.nps.navy.mil/~guestps/sheba/pictures/

    Hope these help....

    Jim
    Coach - Snow C.A.T.S.


    1. Message by: madscientists 10/30/2001 06:36:33 GMT
      SNOW Cats -- thanks for the leads!!!

      I'm into the library as of late. I'm also finding in my reading that the science behind global warming has many wrinkles, and I'm working quite hard (with minimal success so far) to find materials to bring the sceince down to a 5th-6th grade level. Most of the books I ahve seen to date are challenging reads for the coach with a BS Chemical Engineering degree. Looks like I'll be walking the fine line between teaching enough to inspire thinking about independent science learning and doing a lecture series . . . .

      Books so far are

      Miller, Christina G. and Berry, Louise A., "Air Alert: Rescuing the Earth's Atmosphere," Atheneum, 1996. - more geared to age group, nice glossary, but depth of science suffers

      Philander, S. George, "Is the Temperature Rising? The Uncertain Science of Global Warming," Princeton Univeristy Press, 1998. -- detailed reading

      Erickson, Jon, "Greenhouse Earth: Tomorrow's Disaster Today," TAB Books, 1990. -- slanted more towards urgency to fix global warming now, not as well organized or thought through as Philander (IMHO).

      If any of you have additional suggestions, this might be a great forum to discuss.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    2. Message by: Unibots 10/30/2001 23:34:35 GMT
      Snow Cats --

      Thanks for the info!

      Here's a few links not shown above that my kids found helpful:

      http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/kids/

      http://www.arm.gov/docs/education/globwarm/globegin.html

      http://www.oneworld.net/penguin/global_warming/climate_home.html

      http://www.letus.org/globalwarming.htm

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    3. Message by: icebergs 11/06/2001 03:55:23 GMT
      Here's another good one if you're interested in hearing the arguments for the minority viewpoint of this issue. It has some good scientific information and opinion articles that you don't hear in the mainstream media.

      http://www.greeningearthsociety.org


    4. Message by: Lakeview Icebergs 11/19/2001 22:38:20 GMT
      Another good source is www.oism.org, this site contains the 17,000 signature petition against the Kyoto treaty and includes many useful figures and graphs. Information here is useful for arguements as to whether "global warming" is natural or man-made.


Discussion: the Challenge Movie By: wildcats 10/16/2001 16:14:35 GMT
I haven't been able to see the challenge movie on the website. It says you need realplayer which I have but it won't play. Is there a trick to this? Did everyone else see it?

Laura Stevenson
Weymouth, Ma
Teams 1322 and 1527

  1. Message by: icecats3 10/08/2001 22:33:58 GMT
    You not only need to have Real Played, but you need a PC (it doesn't like macs) and Internet Explorer. You may also need to upgrade Real Player if you already meet the other requirements.


    1. Message by: wildcats 10/09/2001 18:58:56 GMT
      I have tried on Windows NT, with Internet Explorer, with Real Player Basic. I still can not get the movie.


    2. Message by: FIRST Sharon 10/09/2001 19:04:09 GMT
      It is not really worth a lot of trouble to see. It does not even include all of the parts, setup, or necessarily match reality. It is just kind of an intro.

      --Jack Gregory


    3. Message by: RoboScorps 10/12/2001 01:57:48 GMT
      I have a Gateway EV700 and mine wont play it either. It always says that Netscape had performed an illegal operation and it closes. any tips?


    4. Message by: Ziegler 10/16/2001 16:14:35 GMT
      It doesn't like Netscape. It works with Internet Explorer. I have to wait for it to load on a LAN (T1) connection, so it is slow


Discussion: Challenge Kit??? By: vaporizers 11/10/2001 06:20:11 GMT
hey everyone...I have a question for you guys, and I was wondering if anyone could answer it.
What is inside the "Challenge Kit"?
My teacher sent me on a mission...and i must be successful...please help
Xan Sanders
punkrockpromking7@hotmail.com

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/09/2001 22:59:42 GMT
    The challenge kit is the kit which has the mat and the playing peices. You only need one of these if you want to practice with actual equipment and only need one per group to share. You need a seperate kit only if you can not or do not want to share with someone else.


    1. Message by: Sherrod 11/09/2001 02:50:26 GMT
      We don't get a kit so we have to build our own stuff.


    2. Message by: arctic droidz 11/09/2001 18:03:08 GMT
      Everyone gets a kit. Thats if you signed up for the competition. If you didn't then looks like your out of luck, because the first competition in Indiana is on December 2, 2001. Then the next is in Fort Wayne.


    3. Message by: BOB 11/10/2001 06:20:11 GMT
      No, some teams who registered did not get a kit! They ran out. So some teams are trying to create the playing field parts as best they can. That's why there have been so many posts about missing kits and posts from teams looking to borrow kits. Some who registered more than one team are finding that they only have one kit or worse, no kits at all.


Discussion: Chalenge/Documentation or any Information? By: Lakeview lasers 10/12/2001 03:59:23 GMT
We want to know any special info about legoleague stuff

  1. Message by: Techno Strykers 10/12/2001 03:59:23 GMT
    We would like to host a local tournament in Miami is anybody in South Florida interested in competing?


Discussion: Chalenge/Documentation or any Information? By: Lakeview lasers 10/09/2001 23:28:15 GMT
We want to know any special info about legoleague stuff

Discussion: document what!!!!! By: Lakeview lasers 10/10/2001 05:55:34 GMT
Where can I find information on documentation?

  1. Message by: madscientists 10/10/2001 05:55:34 GMT
    My approach this year is to give a notebook each to the programmers, designers/builders, and documenters. The notebooks are to be used to write down anything learned during the session.

    The doucmenters should be spending some time between now and tournament time on the scientific presentation as well. Any notes from outside reading (websites linked to the FLL website, encyclopedia, books from the library) concerning the Arctic, weather patterns, global warming can be recorded as well. You'll have to work with your documenters to put the presentation together.

    The scientific presentation from last year's Wisconsin tournament was about 3 minutes long followed by two minutes of questions from the judges. Visual aids were limited to posters and/or overhead transparencies that the team prepared for the presentation.

    - Mark, Coach, Team 184


Discussion: Community Service By: St. Joseph #1 11/12/2001 02:28:52 GMT
I have seen reference in a couple of places to "community service" performed by the team. Can someone help me with this? Where is there an initial explanation of this expectation? Is it in the Manual and I've just missed it? Is this something that's "nice to do" or "required"? It sounds like a great idea to do it, but I would like to understand the FLL expectations before I approach the team and parents.

Thanks,

Mary Kay
Coach, St. Joe's #1

  1. Message by: Icebreakers 10/15/2001 15:55:42 GMT
    I have not seen that reference, but I am assuming it means things like volunteering for educational events and showing the FIRST Lego League concept in the community. We have seen blanket calls on some of the FLL list-serves for help with things like manning a booth at the State Fair, etc. Community service could also be contributing to the Forums with ideas, answers and help, etc. There is a sportsmanship award... does anyone have any other ideas about how community service is associated with FLL?


    1. Message by: BOB 11/07/2001 08:16:48 GMT
      Our team is doing commmunity service by participating in the Operation Christmas Child program. That's where you fill shoeboxes with items like combs, toys, ect and they go to needy kids. Other teams have done things like car washes and donated funds to charity. There are many worthy charities out there. We picked Operation Christmas Child because the help was going to other children in our team's age group.

      Last year we participated in the Lego Mall tour. Our FLL team did demos to show people what FLL is all about at our local shopping mall. But I personally would put that more in the catagory of Marketing and PR rather than commmunity service. We also sent press releases to our local newspaper so that would get in there (they were happy to publish it, they are always looking for local features).

      This year we did a demo at one of our homeschool group's information nights.

      Btw, there are more messages related to this topic over in the folder of Marketing,PR and Community Service at this forum. Further discussion should go there so people won't miss it.(this is the Challenge and Playing Field folder).


    2. Message by: RoboScorps 11/12/2001 02:28:52 GMT
      I'm not sure if this suggestion was in this year's manual, but our teams (artic droids and roboscorps) raised money last year and this year while helping our community by having a trashathon. This was based on a suggestion in last year's volcanic panic manual. Our team members got pledges from community members (like you would for a walkathon) and then we all met at a local park and cleaned up garbage for three hours. The local park district donated the bags and everyone wore gardening gloves. Both years, the trashathon was successful and fun!!


Discussion: WINDOWS X-P & 2.0 By: Frostbyte 10/30/2001 17:30:48 GMT
Has anyone tried to use 2.0 with Windows X-P? If so, does it work?

Discussion: WINDOWS X-P & 2.0 By: Frostbyte 11/20/2001 07:39:55 GMT
Has anyone tried to use 2.0 with Windows X-P? If so, does it work?

  1. Message by: traut pro programmers 11/03/2001 02:21:36 GMT
    The Lego Mindstorms Support FAQ has info on XP. See the link:
    http://mindstorms.lego.com/support/en/ris20.asp#1c

    Basically they say that is should work fine.


    1. Message by: RoboWhizards 11/20/2001 07:39:55 GMT
      We have been running Robolab 2.0 on Windows XP without a problem either.


Discussion: Team Banner By: Skuas 11/18/2001 07:14:31 GMT
We were wondering where teams usually hang their banners at tournaments? Are there any restrictions as to where? Would it be ok to have a banner that sits on top of the light on top of the pit table?

Marie Hopper
SKUAS Coach
Skuas Knowing & Understanding Arctic Science

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/05/2001 05:29:12 GMT
    Your pit table is just a table, not a playing field, so
    there isn't a playing field light over your pit table. Most banners go on the pit table, or if you have a pit
    table against a wall you can put it on the wall next to you.

    If your tournament is in an arena, you might hang your banner up in the guardrails between the arena seating and
    the floor.

    -Peter


    1. Message by: Sherrod 11/16/2001 03:25:25 GMT
      what do your banners have to have on them? What is a banner for?


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/16/2001 06:11:48 GMT
      Showing a little team spirit! Tooting the team's horn.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    3. Message by: BOB 11/18/2001 07:14:31 GMT
      The name of your team and whatever creative ideas you can come up with to make your banner stand out from the rest of the teams.

      The Banner is there to show team spirit and to let others know what teams came for the event.
      Remember this is "sports for the mind". ;-)


Discussion: mission time By: Arctic Dolphins 11/14/2001 19:32:58 GMT
How long do we have for each mission? Is it two minutes per mission, or two minutess total.
Also, do you have to do only one mission at a time, or can you do more than one?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/02/2001 06:39:24 GMT
    Two minutes TOTAL.

    If you think about it, there are 11 distinct things that
    have to be done, and you only have 5 program slots on
    the RCX, so unless you only want to do 5 missions, you
    will have to do more than one mission in at least one
    program :-)

    Also Rule 4 helps to answer your question:

    4) Missions may be tried in parts, in any order, more than one at a time, or skipped.

    Good luck!

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: FIS Icers 11/02/2001 15:50:20 GMT
      You have 2 minutes to complete whatever missions you want to. So, as Peter says, one program slot will have to accopmlish more than one mission. In previous years, there were not so many missions, but even then, some teams didn't even try some missions depending on how fast their robot was, how far they got programming, etc.

      Our team is for example trying to grab the ice core, hit the flag near it, then hit the flag near the storage hut, then return to base as one of its missions.

      Best of luck,
      John - FIS Icers team helper


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/02/2001 19:09:28 GMT
      I have seen teams try to do all the missions with one program. It used delays at the home base for changes in the robot.


    3. Message by: Ziegler 11/06/2001 05:13:18 GMT
      I have seen that too, but this year that would be a big mistake. Especially with 11 tasks to accomplish. If your robot goes off course, you have to start all over again.

      Lowell
      Coach of Teams 774, 776, 1260
      Mentor of Teams 775, 1259


    4. Message by: Team Arctic Blizzard 11/07/2001 08:17:33 GMT
      Is there any scoring benefit for finishing in under 2 minutes? I know in the FIRST Robotics competiton teams that "time-out" early can realize a scoring bonus, but I see no reference to anything like that here...


    5. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 08:34:48 GMT
      Not this year, there was one last year, this year the
      bonus is 5 fuel barrels in the shed to start with.

      -Peter


    6. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 18:42:20 GMT
      The only reason why is because we get to satrt of with 25 points. We've already completed all t missions in I think 5 minutes.


    7. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 22:39:46 GMT
      Droidz -- a round is only 2 minutes long, so you'll need
      to work your time down to 2 minutes from your current
      5 minutes!

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    8. Message by: Techno Wizards 11/08/2001 05:22:49 GMT
      So do you do different missions for each of the three trys of 2 minutes and add all the points collected each try OR do you get two minutes and try to better that score in the next two trys?


    9. Message by: BOB 11/08/2001 09:37:01 GMT
      You get 2 minutes total to do everything your team has decided to do.

      No, you don't add all the points for all the attempts together to get your score. It's the best of your 3 tries that counts. They are not averaged together. So you could easily end up with a situation where try 2 is better than try 3, the try 2 time is what would be used as your best score.

      If it has taken you 5 minutes to do all the missions, you need to better your time. The only thing that will count will be what has been done when 2 minutes has passed, so if you have say, finished 5 of the missions in 2 minutes, that is the score you would get.

      Part of the challenge is for a team to decide what is the best order to do mission in, what missions are best to try first, and what penalties they are willing to risk or even if they want to do all the missions or not. There is no one "right" answer, but some choices are better than others.

      As the time gets closer to your competition, you will want to have a team member time how long it takes to do everything.

      Some competitions will do practice rounds before they do the actual for keeps rounds, but that's going to depend upon what event you are going to.

      Also the 3 tries would not be one right after the other, in most cases you would do a try, then other teams would do their attempt, then you would go back up again for your second attempt. This will give you some time between attempts for any fine tuning.


    10. Message by: First Eagle 11/09/2001 17:55:25 GMT
      So, we have a total of two minutes to complete all 11 missions? Or do we get intervals of two minutes?


    11. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 00:07:31 GMT
      You get two minutes for all 11 missions, maximum score per
      2 minute round is 340 points.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


      1. Message by: 11/10/2001 02:21:34 GMT
        Deleted


    12. Message by: RIVER SCHOOL 11/10/2001 02:20:05 GMT
      Easy missions this year.


    13. Message by: 11/10/2001 18:01:46 GMT
      Deleted


    14. Message by: Polar Protectors 11/13/2001 18:06:56 GMT
      If a team completes all missions in under three rounds,say in the second round what do they do in the last round?


    15. Message by: Unibots 11/13/2001 19:07:35 GMT
      You are supposed to complete all the missions in ONE round,
      depending on the tournament structure, the best score of the three rounds will count, or an average, etc.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    16. Message by: Frostbyte 11/14/2001 07:21:03 GMT
      Are most teams able to complete all the challenge tasks within 2 minutes?


    17. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/14/2001 19:32:58 GMT
      We will find out at the tournaments.


Discussion: fuel barrels By: Frostbyte 11/13/2001 20:48:58 GMT
Can we leave a robot part in the fuel barrel hut when we drop off the fuel barrels?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/02/2001 22:31:48 GMT
    Yes! There is no rule against it, as long as the barrels
    are contained within the area defined by the outside
    perimeter of the yellow walls (and extending upward
    forever).

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: Vertical Limit 11/02/2001 23:07:32 GMT
      Can we put a black axle in the fuel barrel holes and transport it to a located area?


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/03/2001 00:02:28 GMT
      Yes. In fact the instructions for the fuel barrels, if carefully followed, will leave all the holes in the
      eight pulleys that make up each barrel lined up so that
      you can do just that with an axle.

      In general, unless the rules explicitly disallow something,
      you can do it! Creative solutions are part of what FLL
      is all about!

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    3. Message by: 11/03/2001 16:36:28 GMT
      Deleted


    4. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/05/2001 19:56:26 GMT
      The last answer to the questions for Barrels in the Q&A section says that any barrel supported by the wall and not touching the mat outside the wall will count. So you do not have to imagine a wall extending upward forever and all barrels have to be inside that wall. As long as the barrels or anything that is supporting the barrels is inside the walls or balanced by the walls and not touching the mat outside of the wall will count.


    5. Message by: ArticLegoTerminators 11/13/2001 02:17:49 GMT
      How many points do you lose if a team member touches a barrel to get it into the storage hut?


    6. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/13/2001 20:48:58 GMT
      That would be up to the judge. Most likely you will only loose only the barrel(s) that was(were) touched. Each barrel is 5 points.

      --Dave Kolberg


Discussion: ice core By: Frostbyte 11/13/2001 04:34:31 GMT
How will the handle on the ice core be placed, perpendicular to the closest table edge, or parallel to it.

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/02/2001 22:47:10 GMT
    Just like it shows on the playing mat, perpendicular to
    the table edge, so the open side faces the base directly.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: Sherrod 11/07/2001 02:55:03 GMT
      how well is the turning on the ice core?


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 03:34:55 GMT
      Sherrod, I'm not sure I understand your question. Do you mean how easily does the handle twist? The answer to that
      question is "pretty easily" if your "grabber" whatever it may be, brushes the handle it could easily move it so that the grab does not work.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Icebreakers and the Unibots


    3. Message by: bumblesbounce 11/07/2001 20:01:21 GMT
      Are we allowed to pick the ice core up with our hands and put it on the robot.


      1. Message by: Confused&Bewildered 11/10/2001 18:06:49 GMT
        no, you may not touch anything except when you are loading the scientists.

        -Del, coach Team 1481


      2. Message by: Arctic Angels 11/13/2001 03:53:14 GMT
        From what I understand the only things you are allowed to pick up are the scientists and even then you CANNOT touch the robot. Hope it helps!
        -Jenn-Arctic Angels-


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 22:40:57 GMT
      No! All activity (with the exception of loading the
      scientists) that occurs outside of the base MUST be
      accomplished ENTIRELY by the robot without any intervention
      from humans.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    5. Message by: bumblesbounce 11/08/2001 15:43:35 GMT
      What about the barrels, can they be picked up by hand? What do you suggest?


    6. Message by: bumblesbounce 11/08/2001 19:31:33 GMT
      how do we view our page? ~Bumblesbounce


    7. Message by: FIS Icers 11/08/2001 19:34:38 GMT
      The barrels, because they are inside of the base, may be picked up by hand and placed on the robot for delivery to the storage hut. Once the robot leaves the base though, you can't manually release the barells or otherwise touch the robot in order to deliver the barrels. You can do whatever you like to the robot while it is in the base - add/remove parts, put things on it, take things off, change programs, etc.

      Good luck
      John - FIS Icers team helper


    8. Message by: 11/10/2001 02:10:33 GMT
      Deleted


    9. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 18:16:30 GMT
      Hi Del,

      When loading the scientists you may touch the scientists,
      but not the robot.

      When loading the fuel barrels, you may touch the barrels
      and the robot because you are entirely within the base at
      that point, though the UNloading of the barrels into
      the storage shed must be done entirely by the robot.

      Similarly, you may load the new instrument onto the
      robot in base, but the robot must carry the instrument
      to the target and release it without intervention from
      the team after the "run" button is pressed.

      Finally, you may UNload the ice core from the robot in
      the base, but the robot must retrieve it autonomously without assistance from the team.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    10. Message by: 11/11/2001 23:56:06 GMT
      Deleted


    11. Message by: 11/13/2001 04:34:31 GMT
      Deleted


Discussion: new instrament By: Team Cornerstone 11/16/2001 06:17:05 GMT
hi can u put the new instrument on your robot then when you get to the rings can you pick it up with your hands and put it in the rings your self? also does it have to be upright?

  1. Message by: TBA 11/05/2001 02:25:08 GMT
    yes you do have to have it up right and you can't put the robot in the rings! But I think you can put it on the ship once it is in.

    tba


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/05/2001 05:27:09 GMT
      It DOES NOT need to be upright, but you MAY NOT touch it with your hands after it has left the base, the robot must
      autonomously deploy the instrument.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    2. Message by: DaVinci Blue Dragons 11/06/2001 01:47:51 GMT
      I think he's right!


    3. Message by: Sherrod 11/16/2001 03:21:27 GMT
      which one is right?


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/16/2001 06:17:05 GMT
      I am! :-)

      Seriously, from the official Q&A on the challenge web
      site:

      Q. Must the New Instrument be placed on the mat in an upright manner? What if it falls over?
      A. Nothing in the rules says it needs to stand, so it doesn't matter

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Questions about pieces or missions By: Techno Wizards 11/20/2001 03:45:56 GMT
Should there be enough pieces to build a robot and the missions pieces? Also which pieces are glued to the mat?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/06/2001 07:20:03 GMT
    The missions pieces come in a separate kit (the "Challenge Kit" which was one of the things you could buy when you
    registered) from the robot pieces.

    As for sticking things to the mat using the 3M dual-lock,
    (not glue!) see the "playing field setup" instructions
    on the 2001 challenge page.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: Reeds Brook Rebels 11/06/2001 21:48:41 GMT
      Can the water and ice pieces be organized so that our robot can go over them more easily?


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 01:42:05 GMT
      No. In a tournament situation there wouldn't be time
      for you to organize the pieces before your round starts,
      and it wouldn't be an accurate simulation of the real
      world. In the real world you don't get to go out in a
      blizzard and pack the snow before sending your robot out
      (if you're going to be out there on the loose snow packing
      it down, you may as well trip the weather balloon before
      you freeze to death in the blizzard :-)

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    3. Message by: mustang 11/08/2001 04:13:58 GMT
      I am new to the FLL team. What exactly do we bring the day of the tournament?
      Kathy


    4. Message by: BOB 11/08/2001 09:48:35 GMT
      You will need at least this:

      your robot - turn it off when not in use
      batteries - lots! RCX units go through these fast, especially with several rounds of action.
      a computer (in case you need to reload your program)
      IR tower - for downloading any modifications in RCX
      software - your program should already be loaded into your computer, don't forget your Lego Mindstorms or Robolab CD.
      any items for your presentation (such as trifolds, notebook)
      your team spirit - banners, tshirts, your smile
      a box for carrying the robot, so you won't lose parts when you are carrying it from the staging area to the rounds
      camera for taking lots of pictures
      your cheering section (parents, siblings, friends)

      you will NOT need:
      tables or playing mat - if it's official event that will be provided for you.
      if it's an unofficial event, teams may need to bring their own, check first


    5. Message by: FIS Icers 11/08/2001 19:38:03 GMT
      Mustangs - our competition organizers also suggest a box (a garage) to use to shield your robot while downloading, and to shield it from other teams, so your robot doesn't by mistake accept someone else's program.

      John - FIS Icers team helper


    6. Message by: Unibots 11/08/2001 21:47:25 GMT
      A garage is important, there's a lot of IR flying around
      at a competition. In fact, just yesterday in practice,
      both teams' robots were on one was within 2 feet of the
      tower, the other was about 6-10 feet away, the IR tower
      was on low power, but what happened was interesting: Both robots wound up being programmed with invalid programs
      (hit the run button and nothing happens). My best guess? Both robot's were acknowledging IR data packets and neither
      got the whole program...

      Moving to a garage and reprogramming licked the problem.

      Adding to the list: If you have some system for "bundling" your fuel barrels, you might want to bring them for convenience, just use them instead of the table-supplied
      barrels in your rounds, I doubt the tournament refs would
      mind, and it would be more convenient for you.

      Similarly, if you are adding anything to make the new instrument easier to carry, you may want to bring your
      modified instrument along.

      I predict that there will be more than one call for spare
      scientists at every tournament, as teams walk away from
      the competition table with scientists still attached to their robot.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    7. Message by: Unibots 11/08/2001 21:49:32 GMT
      One last note: frequently there are "practice" tables at a tournament so that teams can test their robot between rounds. These tables frequently do not have all the accessories (i.e. ice core, instrument, barrels) because
      they either walk away accidentally during the tournament or
      because you are expected to bring your own to test your
      robot. Either way, bring them along so you have them if
      you need them and don't take them out if you don't need them.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    8. Message by: Frostbyte 11/09/2001 07:30:57 GMT
      Hi Unibots,
      Can you please clarify your comments about bringing things along to bundle the barrels and carry the new instrument? Do you mean that we can pre-bundle the barrels and use those, rather than having them lose when we unload? And is it permissible to add something to the new instrument to make it easier to carry and to use that in the competition?
      Thanks!


    9. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 00:18:32 GMT
      There are no rules excluding the addition of parts to
      make a mission easier to accomplish (in fact, the intent
      is for kids to think "freely" so outlandish strategies
      are encouraged to the extent that they work). If you look
      at the Q&A on the challenge web site, you will see that
      they are explicit about allowing parts to be added, etc.

      So! What I was saying about bringing your pre-bundled (if
      you choose to bundle) barrels, or your "enhanced" instrument
      to the table is to save the time of applying the
      bundling or enhancement to the table's pieces. As long
      as whatever you are doing could be practically done at
      the table prior to the start of a round, I cannot see
      any tournament organizer in their right mind forcing you
      to use the official table pieces, as long as you only added,
      not subtracted pieces in order to do whatever you wanted
      to do, and, if challenged, you probably should be prepared
      to transfer your modifications to the official table
      pieces.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    10. Message by: 11/10/2001 02:14:20 GMT
      Deleted


    11. Message by: Frostbyte 11/11/2001 22:12:05 GMT
      Thanks Unibots Coach for your response and all of the other information you provide on the forum. You've been a big help!


    12. Message by: mustang 11/12/2001 04:47:05 GMT
      To the Unibots , thank you for all your help too!!!!!!
      The Mustangs


    13. Message by: 6 hyperactive snowballs & a robot 11/19/2001 03:24:31 GMT
      For what it's worth, at a tournament yesterday, the rules
      were that the barrels were arranged neatly in a corner of
      the base by the referee before the beginning of each round
      and were to be left there undisturbed until the two-minute
      match period began. Teams that wanted to deliver the
      barrels in a package were not allowed to load them up
      beforehand.

      This didn't appear to cause problems for anyone, but you
      should be prepared for this since the published rules don't
      cover this situation as far as I can tell.

      Another surprise: at the same tournament, teams lost a
      barrel (5 points) if the robot was not back in base at the
      end of the two minutes. The rules seem pretty clear about
      this -- the penalty should be assessed only if the robot
      has to be retrieved to begin a new mission.


    14. Message by: 6 hyperactive snowballs & a robot 11/19/2001 03:37:27 GMT
      I was mistaken about one point in the message above --
      in fact, the published rules (at least as clarified in
      the Q&A) explicitly permit teams to load or pack up
      barrels before the round begins. Apparently the
      tournament organizers hadn't seen this interpretation.


    15. Message by: Unibots 11/20/2001 03:45:56 GMT
      Sounds like the tournament organizers missed a few
      key points:

      1. You can do any loading/prepping/whatever prior
      to the beginning of the round as long as it can
      be completed in a "reasonable" amount of time.

      2. Where your robot is at the end of two minutes is
      irrelevant w.r.t. the removal of "bonus" points,
      if you are out of base at the end of the round there
      is NO assessed penalty.

      Both of these points are covered in the official FAQ from
      FIRST.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Ice core By: Techno Wizards 11/28/2001 14:33:06 GMT
Does the robot need to remove all of the ice core or can it just take the handle?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/06/2001 07:20:57 GMT
    The mission statement says "any part" of the ice core,
    so yes, just the handle is acceptable, though I suspect
    that in the real world the scientists who don't get
    their core might be a little put out :-)

    -Peter


    1. Message by: Polar Protectors 11/12/2001 20:55:22 GMT
      Can a team member pick up the ice core or anything else and load it to the the robot


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/12/2001 22:17:53 GMT
      Polar Protectors --

      Ice Core- NO, because the ice core is not in the base, so
      you cannot load it by hand, the robot must load itself, but
      a team member may UNLOAD it when the robot is in base.

      Anything Else -- Well, it depends, if the thing to be loaded
      is in base (i.e. the new instrument, the fuel barrels) then
      you can load it by hand (though the robot will have to
      UNLOAD by itself, since it will be out of base).

      The only exception to this "only in base" rule is the
      scientists being threatened by the polar bears,
      they can be loaded by a team member because the rules
      say so. The rationale for this, I suppose, is the
      idea that when humans would be present for the robot
      in real life (in base, and the scientists out on the
      ice) then a team member can interact with the robot
      because a human would be able to prep a robot for a
      mission, or climb onto/into the robot on the ice. The
      reason no interaction with the robot can happen with the
      scientists out on the ice other than loading them is
      because presumably in real life more sophisticated
      interaction with the robot would have to be done by a
      robotics specialist assigned to the mission, not by a
      scientist whose specialty is polar wildlife or meteorology.

      Hope that helps!
      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    3. Message by: Roborisk 11/21/2001 13:19:38 GMT
      Help - Re Ice Core/Barrels and medical supplies
      On the up side our team of 8 10 year olds (who have never done anything like this before) have taken to this challenge with real enthusiasum and energy they have worked out how to build and programe a basic roverbot to complete most of the tasks with a certain degree of sucess however ........ the Ice Core/ Barrels and medical supplies
      seem to us to be the hardest - to be honest our team is struggeling with building gadets to fix to the basic roverbot to help them with these tasks - we may have to abanden these tasks due to a lack of time and perhaps knowledge of the lego mindstorm system - any suggetions would be greatfully received (we only have 5 X 2 hour sessions left to work on this. Note they have built a claw attachment (which knocks the ice core handel out of place and makes it impossible to grab) and a barrel carrier which works by flinging barrels on impact with shed (but falls apart in the process).


      1. Message by: CTKLEGO 11/23/2001 12:26:19 GMT
        At a local comp. we saw a team use a very simple hook with a gear and bumper. The hook would lift once it hit the ice core.


        1. Message by: Roborisk 11/28/2001 14:33:06 GMT
          Thanks we will take a look at that we are now having a certain degree of sucess with a system based on the weather instument.

          Louise Roborisk


Discussion: Ice core By: Techno Wizards 11/06/2001 15:11:30 GMT
Does the robot need to remove all of the ice core or can it just take the handle?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/06/2001 15:11:30 GMT
    Any part of it returned to the base will get the points.


Discussion: Touch sensor By: First Eagle 11/08/2001 21:53:54 GMT
How does it work? what does it do?

  1. Message by: Arctic Adventurers 11/07/2001 23:34:12 GMT
    The touch sensor can hit the wall and turn the robot around.


    1. Message by: First Eagle 11/07/2001 23:47:15 GMT
      what do you mean?


    2. Message by: Arctic Adventurers 11/07/2001 23:53:50 GMT
      what do you mean what do you mean??!!


    3. Message by: First Eagle 11/08/2001 00:16:01 GMT
      I mean so if it touches something it will do something else?


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/08/2001 21:53:54 GMT
      The touch sensor has a little button on the front, your
      program can watch for that button to be pressed (if it
      was unpressed), released (if it was pressed) or for it to
      be "clicked" some number of times, your program can do
      something different (for example, turn away from a wall)
      if the touch sensor is pressed or released. Usually, the
      touch sensor is combined with other parts to make a bumper
      that covers a wide area of the robot and responds quickly.

      If you take a look at the "team resources" section of
      the web site here, you will see some sample bumpers made
      from the touch sensor, your constructopedia will also have
      a few sample constructions.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Penalty for not returning to boat? By: Arctic Angel2 11/24/2001 06:18:17 GMT
Is the penalty for not returning back to the boat (-5) or
(-10) points?

  1. Message by: RoboScorps 11/08/2001 03:37:51 GMT
    It's minus 5 points for not returning back to base.


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/08/2001 21:57:22 GMT
      -5 per time you need to pick up the robot outside of base, up to a maximum of -25 points. So even if you pick up your robot 10 times, you still only lose 25 points.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    2. Message by: Nashville Hailstorms 11/11/2001 23:50:00 GMT
      The penalty for not returning back to base is nothing you get on that run doesn't count.Peter if you touch it you have to move it back to base and if you touch it 5 times you lose 25 points and you can't touch it any more.


    3. Message by: Unibots 11/12/2001 07:29:49 GMT
      Hailstorms -- No, you can continue to hand-retrieve
      after 5 times, there just isn't any additional
      penalty see rule 6:

      6) The robot is to leave base, perform missions, and return to base with only its program to control it. The team receives an automatic "Robot Return Bonus" at the beginning of the round as a reward for the effort it takes to program the robot to return to base. If the team touches the robot before it returns to base, a "Robot Return Penalty" will be given, and the robot must be returned to Starting Position. Each Robot Return Penalty reduces the bonus until the bonus reaches zero.

      Note that there is no language indicating that you cannot
      continue to hand-return the robot after the bonus has
      run out.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    4. Message by: Frostbyte 11/13/2001 05:49:23 GMT
      What happens if you have completed all of your missions but you are out on the field when the round ends? Will the judges deduct 5 points, or will they deny points earned for the last mission the team accomplished, such as raising a flag? Thanks for your help.


    5. Message by: Oak Creek Ice 11/13/2001 06:37:47 GMT
      It does not matter. As long as you do not handle the robot outside home base during the round there is no "return" penalty.


    6. Message by: CTKLEGO 11/23/2001 12:29:09 GMT
      We think if your last mission contains an object that must return to base (scientist rescue or the ice core) you do not receive those points.


    7. Message by: Unibots 11/24/2001 06:18:17 GMT
      CTKLEGO -- Correct! But you also don't lose a barrel from
      the fuel shed.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: printing competition table instructions. By: Robosaints 11/10/2001 02:22:41 GMT
It has taken nearly 2 hours to print first 2 pages of instructions for building items for competition table.
Will it have printed before January 2002???????????
Anybody else having this problem?
Also- children would love to see pictures of other teams - how do we look at their pages?
thanks
Robosaint X X X

  1. Message by: LEGO League - Systemadministrator 11/08/2001 18:29:43 GMT
    To see images of other teams you need to go to their teampage.

    Example:
    - Click on "Search teampage" in the top of the screen.
    - Type in "Robo Managers"
    - Click OK

    Then a Scandinavian page will come up with a picture of the 7 Robo Managers.


    1. Message by: BOB 11/08/2001 23:52:50 GMT
      For printing the instructions, what I would suggest is for you to save the instructions as a file locally. Then print it from there, that might be faster.

      If you are trying to do it "live" from the Internet, that would be slower. Do it off-line from a local file.

      But the printing of the building instructions for all those lego pieces did take us a LONG time. It's over 40 pages and we were printing to an inkjet.


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/09/2001 00:20:56 GMT
      Saving the document locally will DEFINITELY be faster,
      here's why:

      When reading a PDF over the internet, the PDF data is
      read one page at a time in order to maximize the user's
      perceived initial responsiveness, when you go to the next
      page, it is read, and so forth. This works well when you
      are reading interactively, but it's not so great when you
      are printing, because the print driver "reads" much faster
      than you do, and those graphics take a while to come
      through the net.

      Pull the PDF file local, then print it, you'll then
      be limited only by your printer speed, not your
      printer AND the internet.

      -Peter


    3. Message by: 11/10/2001 02:22:41 GMT
      Deleted


Discussion: slot1 problems By: Bondbotica 11/10/2001 02:15:29 GMT
our team has not been able to use slot 1 for program. when the slot selection comes slot 1 is darkened. why?

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/09/2001 00:42:52 GMT
    It is turned off by default in 2.0. To use slot 1 you must go into the setup program and hit the advanced section. There you will see that slot 1 is locked. Unlock slot 1 and accept. You will be able to use slot 1 again. Be carefull, if you hit a try it button, it will download into slot 1 and over ride what is already in slot 1.


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/09/2001 00:46:18 GMT
      By default program slots 1+2 are "locked" are you using
      RIS or ROBOLAB? The procedure for unlocking program
      slots is different for each.

      In ROBOLAB: start robolab, select the "administrator"
      button, go to "RCX settings" tab, select "unlocked" for
      program slots 1+2. Make sure that the RCX is on and in
      range of the IR tower when you do this.

      In RIS: start RIS, choose "Settings" then click the
      "Advanced" button and unmark the "X" in program slot 1,
      indicating that slot 1 is locked. Apply the settings and
      return to the RIS top-level menu. Again, I think the RCX
      needs to be on and in range of the IR tower.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers

      -Peter


    2. Message by: 11/10/2001 02:15:29 GMT
      Deleted


Discussion: RCX question By: wildcats 11/14/2001 06:47:26 GMT
Doesn't the run button stop the program from running as well as begin the program? Our RCX seemed to be acting funny yesterday. We programmed it just to run in a straight line and we could not get the motors to shut off unless we pressed the on/off button. Do you think there may be a problem with our RCX?

Laura Stevenson
Weymouth, MA

  1. Message by: Polar Protectors 11/09/2001 17:44:49 GMT
    Can you hook up two different things (light senser,touch sensor)too the same input?


    1. Message by: JACDD 11/10/2001 00:06:30 GMT
      Wildcats: The motors probably stayed on because your program did not turn them off before exiting. The program has to explicitly turn off the motors if you want them to be off after the program terminates.


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 00:26:08 GMT
      Polar protectors --

      Yes, but you have to be careful in your programming
      then.

      To use your example, if you have a touch and a light
      sensor on the same input, then your program needs to
      always treat the sensor as a light sensor, the difference
      will be that the light sensor will read the maximum
      (100) or minimum (0) (sorry, don't recall off the top
      of my head and I'm away from my RCX at the moment) value
      when the touch sensor is pressed, but will otherwise
      read "normal" values. Electronically, the touch sensor
      is essentially a resister wired in parallel to the
      photoresister that is the light sensor (it's a little
      more complex that that because the RCX also supplies
      power to the light sensor to make the LED light up) but
      for our purposes it's enough to think of the circuit as
      two resisters in parallel, one resister (the touch sensor)
      is essentially "infinite" when released and "zero" when
      touched, the other's resistance varies according to the
      amount of light hitting it. So, when the touch sensor
      is released you have the electrical current passing
      through the photo resister and the RCX interprets the
      voltage as a percentage of light hitting the photoresistor.
      When the touch sensor is pressed, the current will pass
      through the touch sensor (least resistance) and the
      RCX, which has been told that port has a light sensor on
      it, will read the low resistance value as maximum (or
      minimum) light.

      It's a little simplified, but that should give you the
      right idea!

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    3. Message by: Polar Protectors 11/11/2001 06:53:14 GMT
      Thanks for the info. It really helped!!!


    4. Message by: Polar Protectors 11/12/2001 20:58:47 GMT
      Can any part of the robot be deathached to complete a mission


    5. Message by: Unibots 11/12/2001 22:18:54 GMT
      Protectors -- If the attaching/detaching happens in base,
      absolutely!

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    6. Message by: wildcats 11/13/2001 14:13:15 GMT
      My program was simple. Turn on motor a and c run for 10s stop motors a and c. However, they did not stop, nor would they stop when the run button was depressed. I noticed the RCX that was sent was a 1.0 could that be the problem?


    7. Message by: Unibots 11/13/2001 19:10:50 GMT
      1.0, 1.5 and 2.0 RCX's are all identical, the only
      difference is the firmware that gets downloaded to
      them.

      Is this an RIS or ROBOLAB program you were using?

      What program slot did you download to, and what
      program slot were you running? The reason I ask is
      that by default program slot 1 just runs all motors
      forward, it's a good way to test a drive mechanism
      while building without having to program anything.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers

      -Peter


    8. Message by: Oak Creek Ice 11/14/2001 06:47:26 GMT
      Wildcats: Try turning off the motors by using the "Interrogate RCX" command in RoboLab (double click on the output A and output C boxes, or if using RCX software, use the direct control functions (I forgot what the're called) to directly turn off the motors.

      We too, had a similar situation where the motors would be turned off under program control, and then when then program ended, one of the motors would go back on.

      John


Discussion: Fuel Barrels By: First Eagle 11/10/2001 00:27:51 GMT
During the third mission if a barrel falls off the robot onto the mat(not on base or in hut) when we bring the robot back to base can we pick up the barrels we dropped?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 00:27:51 GMT
    Not unless they roll into base on their own, and even
    then it would be up to the judges' discretion. Ordinarily
    such things remain on the table where they stop.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: The parts list By: Nashville Hailstorms 11/13/2001 03:35:20 GMT
Hi, I need a copy of the parts list, if anyone can tell me how to get one I will be very gratful

Jack

  1. Message by: Frostbyte 11/11/2001 22:21:44 GMT
    I would also like a parts list. Can anyone tell me how many rubber bands we are supposed to have if we ordered everything available for the challenge from Pitsco Datca?


    1. Message by: Nashville Hailstorms 11/11/2001 23:41:55 GMT
      I know how many rubber bands you need.You need 4 small blacks,3 small wighte,3 medium blue and 3 large yellow.


    2. Message by: St. Joseph #1 11/12/2001 21:19:23 GMT
      Hailstorms,

      This might help:
      http://www.hightechkids.org/fll/coaching/Inventory/FLLInvent2001.htm

      Mary Kay
      Coach, St. Joe's #1


    3. Message by: FIRST Sharon 11/13/2001 03:35:20 GMT
      Please be aware that the above website "hitechkids" is for the Minnesota competition, which is more restrictive than the rules state. If you want the official list, you can obtain it from FIRST. See the Q&A document.

      --Jack Gregory


Discussion: Touch Sensor blocks By: pierce 11/12/2001 19:42:00 GMT
We are using Robotic Invention System 2.0. We would like to know if it is possible to print out a program in the RIS 2.0, as it appears on the screen.

Thanks,
Pierce Panthers
Cedar Rapids, IA

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/12/2001 19:42:00 GMT
    You should be able to use the print screen and past it into a document or some other imaging program to print it out.


Discussion: roation sensors By: LEGGY-EGGY 11/12/2001 22:36:43 GMT
>could anyone provide info on the rooation sensors. thankyou.

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/12/2001 19:34:59 GMT
    Sure!

    When the RCX reads the rotation sensor, it will read a
    number between - and +
    where the large number is in the 10,000+ range (sorry,
    I don't recall the exact number at the moment). When an
    axle running through the sensor is rotated forward, the
    rotation sensor will count upward, 16 counts per
    complete rotation of the axle (each count, then, indicates
    22.5 degrees of rotation). When rotated backward, the
    rotation sensor will count down, 16 counts per rotation,
    so if you start at 0 and rotate the axle backward one
    complete turn you will get a reading of -16.

    The distance traveled for a given rotation count will
    depend on the size of the wheel attached to the rotation
    sensor (since one complete rotation of a wheel travels
    a distance equal to the circumference of the wheel), and
    whether there is any gearing between the rotation sensor
    and your wheel.

    The rotation sensor is somewhat speed-limited, if the
    axle in it is spun faster than 500 times per minute, the
    sensor will "miss" counts, but it's pretty rare for this
    to be a problem in real constructions using the motors
    that come with the FLL set, since they turn slightly
    slower than 500 RPM.

    Does this help? Do you have other more specific
    questions about the sensor?

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 11/12/2001 21:38:18 GMT
      There are also several helpful messages about rotation sensors in another part of this Forum. Go to the main Forum menu, click on the folder called "Challenge and Playing Field," then click the folder called "Robots," and finally "A Straight Moving Robot without sensors?"

      Good luck!

      Mary Kay
      Coach, St. Joe's #1


    2. Message by: sjcs 11/12/2001 22:36:43 GMT
      can someone help us use rotation sensors


Discussion: roation sensors By: LEGGY-EGGY 11/12/2001 18:03:56 GMT
>could anyone provide info on the rooation sensors. thankyou.

  1. Message by: LEGGY-EGGY 11/12/2001 18:03:56 GMT
    >please help


Discussion: LIGHT SENSORS By: RoboScorps 11/13/2001 10:54:38 GMT
OUR PROGRAMMER/ BUILDERS ARE LEARNING TO USE LIGHT SENSORS. ANYONE HAVE TIPS ON HOW TO MAKE A PROGRAM TO MAKE THEM WORK?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/13/2001 10:54:38 GMT
    Hi Scorps,

    First, find the caps lock key and press it, ALL CAPS
    IMPLIES SHOUTING, and it is hard to read :-)

    As for using the light sensor, here's something I posted
    a while back on this forum, you might want to hit the
    "search" button and search for "light sensor" because
    you will find other postings that will be helpful:

    The light sensor can be used in a couple of different
    ways, though in the case of FLL what you will probably
    want is to use it as a reflective light sensor so that
    your robot can "see" the different colors on the playing
    field -- this is the typical use.

    Here's how it works: the light sensor returns a value
    to the robot between 0 (no light at all, which you
    will probably never see since some of the light from
    the LED on the sensor will "bleed" into the light
    sensitive element no matter what you do) and 100 (very
    bright light). Hook the light sensor up to a port of
    the RCX and download any program that uses a light sensor
    on that port and run it once(so the RCX knows there's a light sensor there and does the right thing for a powered sensor) if everything went right the red LED on the light
    sensor will come on. Now, press the "view" button on the
    RCX until the triangle points at the port number that the
    light sensor is connected to, you should see the numbers
    returned by the sensor.

    Now, hold the sensor so the active end points down at
    the playing field, hold it over the white part, you'll
    probably see a number close to 50, then hold it over
    a blue line, you'll probably see a number around 30 (less
    light is reflected back by the blue line), move the sensor

    slowly* from blue to white, note how the numbers change as the sensor sees less blue and more white.
    Using a single light sensor, it is possible to write a
    program to follow a line, look around on the forum here
    and you'll probably see at least one message from me on
    the topic of how to follow a line.

    The *other* thing a light sensor can be used for is to
    seek light or dark. In this case, you don't really want
    the light shining from the sensor, so you would typically
    put a black 1x2 beam (with one hole) in front of the
    sensor (hold it in place with a plate on bottom and
    on top) as it happens (as usually happens because LEGO
    thinks about this sort of thing) the hole in the beam
    lines up exactly with the light sensitive part of
    the sensor and blocks most of the red light. Now you
    have something that will detect bright sources of light
    in the area around you. So far, this aspect of the light
    sensor has not come into play in FLL, but there are
    other challenges where it is useful for the robot to
    seek a bright light.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: robot location at end of round By: Frostbyte 11/13/2001 10:42:34 GMT
What happens if our robot is out on the playing field when the round ends? Do we get the points for everything accomplished (assuming we got everything back into base properly beforehand), minus 5 for not being back in base?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/13/2001 10:42:34 GMT
    No penalty if the robot does not make it back before
    the end of the round, unless the robot is on the way
    back with something that scores you points, in which
    case you don't get the points for whatever you don't
    make it back to base with.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Scientists By: Vertical Limit 11/10/2001 06:51:24 GMT
If you go and retrieve the scientists and your vehicle gets stuck on the way back and you retrieve it by hand to take it back to base can you still get points for the scientists?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/05/2001 23:49:38 GMT
    No! The scientists must cross the baseline as a result
    of autonomous robot action, if your robot gets stuck
    you don't get the points and you don't get to reset
    the scientists either (they freeze to death in the
    storm because the robot got lost -- or at least, that's
    what would happen in the real world, that's why reliability is SOO important).

    -Peter


    1. Message by: arctic droidz 11/09/2001 18:17:59 GMT
      YES! You can pick the robot up manually, but you lose 5 points.


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 00:09:04 GMT
      Droidz --

      If you pick the robot up manually after the scientists
      have been loaded, you lose 5 points AND you don't get the
      points for the scientists, they come off the table.

      The points for the scientists are scored when the
      SCIENTIST, not the robot, crosses the baseline.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    3. Message by: Nashville Hailstorms 11/10/2001 03:53:07 GMT
      Yes,you do still get the points if you move it manually back to base


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 06:51:24 GMT
      Hailstorms -- No, you don't. Please see rules 8 and
      10:

      8) If the robot is retrieving an object back to base, points will only be awarded when any part of the object itself crosses the base line, no matter where the robot is.

      10) Playing field objects will remain as the robot leaves them and will not be reset during the round, but may be removed from the field at the team*s request. If a retrievable object comes away with the robot when a Robot Return Penalty is given, no points will be awarded for the retrieval, and the referee will remove the object from the field. Objects in base may be removed at any time.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Scientists By: Vertical Limit 11/27/2001 21:28:15 GMT
If you go on the bears ice can you use it like base where you pick up the robot and can you put the bears on your robot even if it is not on the ice?

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/05/2001 23:51:00 GMT
    No! you may not touch your ROBOT while it is on the
    ice, all you may do is load the scientists (by sticking
    them on, or dropping them in, or whatever you need to do
    to get them onto the robot for return to base).

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: Reeds Brook Rebels 11/07/2001 21:25:29 GMT
      Can you touch the scientists with your hand (actually pick the scientists up) and put them on the robot as long as you don't touch the robot?


    2. Message by: Reeds Brook Rebels 11/07/2001 21:29:09 GMT
      If the robot has moved the polar bears in some way, can we ask that the polar bears be removed from the board?


    3. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 22:42:58 GMT
      Rebels - yes to picking up the scientists, no to the
      polar bear. Note that the rules say if a polar bear
      has been "knocked over" you take the ten point penalty,
      if you just move it, you don't lose any points, but
      it has to remain on the field.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    4. Message by: Reeds Brook Rebels 11/08/2001 21:20:24 GMT
      How close does the robot have to be to the scientists for us to pick the scientists up and put them on the robot?


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 11/09/2001 04:29:16 GMT
        You need to be on the scientists' block of ice.

        Mary Kay
        Coach, St. Joe's #1


    5. Message by: Reeds Brook Rebels 11/08/2001 21:23:57 GMT
      If the robot tips over the polar bears, can we have the robot set them back up again?


    6. Message by: Unibots 11/08/2001 21:39:23 GMT
      Rebels -- The robot just needs to have some part of itself
      overlapping the "ice floe" that the scientists are
      on.

      If you want to try to make your robot capable of righting
      the polar bears, go for it! The point deduction would
      be based on the state of the polar bears at the
      end of the round and if I were refereeing a round that
      had a robot knock a polar bear over and then pick it up
      and set it upright (assuming no human ever touched the
      bear or the robot) I'd not deduct points.

      I suspect, however, that you will find that to be a far more
      difficult challenge than you think!

      -Peter


    7. Message by: RoboScorps 11/13/2001 03:40:11 GMT
      REBELS-U NEED TO BE ON THE BLOCK OF ICE THE SCIENTISTS ARE ON. THE RULES STATE THAT IF YOU KNOCK OVER THE POLAR BEARS, THERE IS A 10 POINT PENALTY NO MATTER IF U SET THEM BACK UP OR NOT.


    8. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/13/2001 20:54:47 GMT
      The penalty is accessed at the end of the round based on the condition at that time. So if you can pick the polar bears back up, you would not incur the 10 point penalty. However, I am not sure you will have time nor the dexterity to right a fallen bear.


    9. Message by: JACDD 11/14/2001 00:44:56 GMT
      I don't agree. The rules say that points will be deducted if the polar bears are "harmed", which is then defined as knocking them down. It says nothing about being able to "un-harm" them. I interpret that as meaning the points are deducted for the action of harming the bears, not for the bears' state at the end of the round. I would ask for specific clarification from a tournament before assuming otherwise. That being said, I agree with Peter that it would be very difficult to right a fallen bear.


    10. Message by: Unibots 11/14/2001 02:33:44 GMT
      The FAQ is pretty explicit about the fact that
      points are assessed at the END of the round, with a
      few exceptions for things that have to cross the baseline
      and are scored at that time.

      For example, if you deploy the new instrument perfectly
      but then accidentally move it later, you only get the
      points for its *final* resting place.

      -Peter


    11. Message by: BOB 11/18/2001 07:17:57 GMT
      I don't think you can pick up the polar bears, only the scientists. If the polar bears fall anytime during the round, I think the judges would count that as them being "harmed". IMO, I think in that case you would get a penalty.


    12. Message by: Riverside Raveneers 11/27/2001 02:21:26 GMT
      Is the polar bears block of ice the 1.5 by 1.5 irregular "square" shape surrounded by the heavy dark lines or is there some smaller area that is considered? I don't quite understand just exactly what this block of ice is.


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 11/27/2001 21:28:15 GMT
        Yes, the polar bears' block of ice is that shape surrounded by "leads" or breaks in the ice.

        Mary Kay
        Coach, St. Joe's #1


Discussion: ship By: musketeers 11/13/2001 03:33:52 GMT
Is the ship one of the items that the teams have to build? Or is this something provided at the tournament?

  1. Message by: DaVinci Blue Dragons 11/06/2001 01:45:21 GMT
    I'm fairly sure that the ship is just a flat piece of "ice" shaped like a ship.


    1. Message by: icebergs 11/06/2001 03:46:09 GMT
      The ouline of the ship is drawn on the corner of the mat. You don't have to build it. It's the home base for beginning and ending all of your robot missions, unless you retrieve the robot by hand and take a five point penalty. You can handle the robot within the ship, switch to different programs, load fuel barrels & instrument, unload scientists and ice core.


    2. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 18:39:30 GMT
      The ship in already on the mat, the did something to where it was already on it. The only things you got to build is the ice core, the fuel hut, the ice surface, the 3 flags, the waether balloon and tower, and thats about it.


    3. Message by: RoboScorps 11/13/2001 03:33:52 GMT
      HEY ARCTIC DROIDZ, U REALLY NEED TO LEARN HOW TO SPELL. LOL!


Discussion: Robot in the boat. By: Arctic Angel2 11/25/2001 18:32:52 GMT
Does the robot have to be in the ship fully.

  1. Message by: 11/07/2001 23:57:39 GMT
    Deleted


    1. Message by: Ziegler 11/08/2001 02:14:19 GMT
      Yes. Imagine that the outline of the ship is an imaginary wall extending upward. The entire robot must be inside the walls.

      Lowell Ziegler
      Coach of Teams 774, 776, & 1260
      Mentor to Teams 775, & 1259


    2. Message by: Techno Wizards 11/08/2001 05:14:16 GMT
      Isn't that only in the beginning? If any part is in the ship when going back and forth, you can pick it up and push the buttons and move it. Check the scoring section of FLL. There aree diagrams.


    3. Message by: FIRST Sharon 11/08/2001 05:49:12 GMT
      No, each time you push the green button, ALL of it has to be in the boundary.

      --Jack Gregory


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/08/2001 21:56:07 GMT
      Wizards -- Jack is right. But to explain a little further,
      the diagrams in the rules are for when you can pick up
      the robot as it is returning to the base without losing points. After you pick it up and do whatever needs to be
      done before it goes out on its next mission the robot must be again ENTIRELY within the base before you hit the green
      "run" button.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the ICebreakers


    5. Message by: Nashville Hailstorms 11/10/2001 23:29:10 GMT
      I agree with you Lowell the robot has to be inside the base entirely to be legall .Hey Jack I don't think you can push the green button at all after you've started. Coach Peter,if you touch it you have to move it back to base and you lose 5 points.


      1. Message by: Carson Cougars 11/25/2001 17:29:56 GMT
        I understand that the robot has to be fully in base at the start of each "program", but once you press the green button to begin your objective, your robot can then move part of itself *using a motor* which makes it go out of base (eg. an arm or claw), even if the rest of the robot has not moved out of base yet, right?!?!

        Please tell me that we're right! Our tournament is next Saturday! hee hee hee

        ~June Mirassou, coach of the Ice Lords and Ladies
        San Jose, CA


    6. Message by: Unibots 11/11/2001 03:14:39 GMT
      Hailstorms --

      You may not touch the robot after it has LEFT the base
      until it returns to base, unless you want to lose 5 points,
      but you may certainly, within base, do anything that you
      need to (change which program number it will run, load it,
      etc.) then hit the run button and it's again taking off on
      another mission.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    7. Message by: Frostbyte 11/11/2001 22:27:24 GMT
      It's my understanding that if any part of the robot crosses the base line, then you may pick up the robot and put the robot into base without penalty. Is this correct? Also, it's my understanding that if your robot has cargo, such as the scientist, that the scientist must actually cross over into base on the robot's power, or you don't get those points. But that if the scientist is in base, and part of the robot is out of base, you can pick up the robot without penalty and still get the scientist points. Is that correct?
      Thanks!


    8. Message by: Unibots 11/12/2001 07:26:07 GMT
      Frostbyte -- Yep! You got it.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    9. Message by: Unibots 11/25/2001 18:32:52 GMT
      June -- Right! Except that the "using a motor" is a bit
      strong, whatever happens must be initiated by the robot
      (which generally *implies* a motor moves).

      For example last year a team I saw built a very long
      "wall" out of whatever parts they could scavenge, the
      wall kind of leaned against the robot and when the robot moved, the wall fell to help keep lava out of the village.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Minster Masterminds By: Minster Masterminds 11/10/2001 18:02:39 GMT
Hi How's it going. We're having fun building and designing our robot for the Arctic Impact in December.
It's awesome!!!!

  1. Message by: Minster Masterminds 11/07/2001 14:28:58 GMT
    The Minster Masterminds are all having lots of fun trying to make our inventions work.

    But sometimes we crash the whole playing board!!!!!!!


    1. Message by: 11/07/2001 14:32:24 GMT
      Deleted


    2. Message by: 11/07/2001 14:43:54 GMT
      Deleted


    3. Message by: Minster Masterminds 11/07/2001 15:39:46 GMT
      Our programming is doing great. It always changes when we put new batteries in. Then we have to change all our timing. Do you have any suggestions besides using the rotation sensor?


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/07/2001 22:45:14 GMT
      Nope! That's part of the challenge, timing based
      robots are inherently unreliable because the timing
      changes as the batteries weaken.

      I've seen some teams that change their batteries before
      each tournament round and keep their programs tuned
      for fresh batteries, but it's better to make your robot
      more reliable by using the sensors you have available.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    5. Message by: Arctic Angels 11/08/2001 03:58:17 GMT
      Competition is not that far away! I'm so nervous, in October, our robot, Fred, kept on running
      into the wall(he was in a acrobot design) but we kept on changing his design every other day! And I knew that would end up in trouble, and it did! Now, we're keeping the roverbot design/our design(my original creation!) I just hope we'll be ready in time! But, I won't be up at the table at competition, because my team chose the other builder, which that really hurt my feelings, but I've learned to deal with it.


    6. Message by: RIVER SCHOOL 11/10/2001 02:18:26 GMT
      These missions are way too easy.


    7. Message by: Unibots 11/10/2001 18:02:39 GMT
      If it weren't for the 2 minute time limit, you
      would be right river school.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


Discussion: Test Pad By: First Eagle 11/14/2001 01:30:10 GMT
Does the test pad come with the starter kit?

  1. Message by: Arctic Adventurers 11/07/2001 23:52:19 GMT
    what is a test pad?


    1. Message by: Techno Wizards 11/08/2001 05:10:22 GMT
      I called Pitsco about this one. The test pad is listed and phographed in one of the books we got for FLL but Pitsco uses that book for other products they sell. It is not part of FLL. That is what I understood them to say. We were interested in using it because on the training program they talk about it at the end. Call Pitsco to but one.


    2. Message by: First Eagle 11/09/2001 15:51:37 GMT
      OK thanks


    3. Message by: RIVER SCHOOL 11/10/2001 02:28:32 GMT
      you stole our avatar rookies we are veterans all of us.


      1. Message by: Arctic Angels 11/13/2001 04:05:00 GMT
        Well veterans, we are waiting for a reply. (About the MT. Home thing-buddy thing.)
        -Arctic Angels-


    4. Message by: Unibots 11/13/2001 10:48:16 GMT
      River School Cool is in N. California, I doubt they'll
      be going to the Arkansas competition, they're yanking your
      chain.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    5. Message by: Frostbyte 11/14/2001 01:30:10 GMT
      Artic Angels,
      We are going to Mountain Home. Would you like to corespond with our team about the competition? We are a homeschooled team from Texas with 9 team members, 5 senior members and 4 junior members. There are 4 girls and 5 boys. I'm sure some of the team members would be glad to chat with you.
      Frostbyte Coach


Discussion: Alignment of robot By: Dennis Jenks 11/14/2001 19:41:48 GMT
You can use objects to aid in aligning the robot in the starting position. Do these need to be made from legos, or are outside materials permissible?

  1. Message by: HUMMEL 11/14/2001 18:14:17 GMT
    The playing mat is slightly smaller that our board, my question are the aligning tools required to be within the base and not overlap the back ice lead? Or can they overlap the ice lead and touch the outside retaining walls around the playing surface?


    1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/14/2001 19:41:48 GMT
      Please see Questions for first time teams*Jigs
      This issue has already been covered.

      --David Kolberg


Discussion: to the Arctic Angels By: Frostbyte 11/16/2001 19:58:15 GMT
Hi this is Frostbyte saying: We would love to be your team buddy. My name is Caitlin. Do you have a team mascot yet? Do you have a banner so I can find you to say hello. Is your team doing well. You will be able to see ours. See ya!

Caitlin

Discussion: balloon size By: Frostbyte 11/29/2001 15:26:08 GMT
Does anyone know the size of the mylar balloon which will be used at the competition?
Thanks.

  1. Message by: FIRST Sharon 11/20/2001 16:48:14 GMT
    I just have to ask: why would it matter? You have to assume the airspace above the release is occupied.

    --Jack Gregory


    1. Message by: Frostbyte 11/20/2001 20:47:38 GMT
      We are trying a new strategy for getting the new instrument to the target, and we wanted to try it with a balloon just identical to the one at the tournament to make sure our strategy wouldn't be hampered.


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/29/2001 15:26:08 GMT
      Since the dimensions of the balloon and the string length are not identified in the rules, you can not rely on any uniformity with regards to the balloon. The space above the balloon release is an unknown and would be a dangerous thing to assume something about it.

      Good luck

      --Dave Kolberg


Discussion: Is anybody done with the programing By: legomen 11/30/2001 00:27:57 GMT
And if anybody is finished, have you done it under 2min?

  1. Message by: madscientists 11/27/2001 04:19:41 GMT
    I don't know if any team ever really gets done fine-tuning the program. There alway seems to be some turn or distance or lift which could be improved more.

    The time limit for the program presents a challenge for every team. A combination (maybe a trade-off!) of robot speed, robot accuracy, robot repeatability, sensor use, and programming skill can help reduce time to complete missions.

    The weeks between the challenge presentation and the tournament also isn't always enough to get all tasks programmed. Every team has to make choices on programming based on practice time limits as well.

    Do the best you can!!!! I'm sure you will get as many tasks programmed as time allows. And you will do great and have fun doing what you can do!!!

    - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    1. Message by: Carson Cougars 11/28/2001 17:19:07 GMT
      Don't worry about how many objectives you accomplish in the two minute period! Many, many teams (especially rookie teams) choose just a few key objectives to work towards. Some come to the competition with only one goal. Don't expect all teams at the competition to even attempt all the tasks. The success is in the process, don't forget!

      My team made a list of the tasks in order of priority (Going for the easier tasks and the big points first)at one of the first meetings. We are working on each program, one at a time, so if we don't achieve all the tasks, at least they've accomplished the
      "important ones" (in their eyes). We have one more team meeting before the tournament and we've managed most of the tasks within two minutes - my point being: it is definitely possible to do all of them within the time frame. Just requires some consolidation of programming and creative problem solving! Isn't this fun! ;-)


    2. Message by: mustang 11/30/2001 00:27:57 GMT
      i am happy to hear that it takes time to program the challenges. our team is trying to program first and then time. the programming is difficult. i hope we can achieve at least one challenge. we have till the fifteenth.


Discussion: Is anybody done with the programing By: legomen 11/26/2001 19:22:04 GMT
And if anybody is finished, have you done it under 2min?

Discussion: Is anybody done with the programing By: legomen 11/26/2001 19:24:34 GMT
And if anybody is finished, have you done it under 2min?


Folder: Feedback 12/30/2001 16:17:38 GMT
This is for your suggestions.
- What can we do to improve the forum next year?
- What can we do to improve the website next year?

Discussion: Forum Topics By: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/21/2001 09:03:27 GMT


  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 10/30/2001 19:51:58 GMT
    One problem with the new forum is that you can not see without going into a folder if that folder has any updates in it. Last year there was "traceability" all the way up the chain so it was easy to find where the new messages were. This year you have to use the message center which flattens everything out.


    1. Message by: Unibots 10/30/2001 22:29:44 GMT
      Drop the "forum" entirely and simply provide an NNTP
      server with a newsgroup for FLL discussions. In fact,
      just get in touch with lugnet (www.lugnet.com) and
      see if you cannot get a couple of newsgroups for FLL
      use there. People can use their browsers or preferred
      newsreaders to read messages, FAR more efficiently
      than this forum software.

      In terms of the web site, I think BY FAR the most important
      thing is for it to be kept up to date, and when you
      make a COMMITMENT to provide updates on a specific date
      about a specific topic DO IT. For example, when the
      playing mats were delayed by the events of 9/11 you
      promised shipping info would be posted on 9/14 or 9/17
      (I don't recall which) and no update was posted until
      9/twenty-something. The same sort of thing has happened
      a couple of times.

      The challenge info this year was too "fragmented" on the web, I wound up cutting and pasting a bunch of stuff into a single document, it would have been nice to not have to do that.

      The hypothesis presentation slides had a BUNCH of redundant
      info that had nothing to do with the core point: to
      communicate the hypothesis assignment (all the
      "classified", etc).

      Overall, I'd have to say that the web is better this year
      than last year, with the one exception that the little
      flash movie that was done last year to establish a
      "back story" for the challenge was really GREAT and I missed
      not having it this year.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    2. Message by: BOB 10/31/2001 05:54:51 GMT
      I agree with many of Unibots comments here.

      Regarding the Hypothesis, it was a real waste of paper and blue ink. It needed to be in a more printer-friendly format. When we printed out the missions, those printed just fine, didn't waste lots of ink.

      I also agree that the hypothsis presentation was not concise. We also did some cut and paste to come up with something useable.


    3. Message by: Skuas 10/31/2001 23:30:26 GMT
      As a rookie coach and team this year, I cannot compare this year's site to last year's.

      Our biggest frustration has been the apparent lack of compatability with Macs. I have been unable to downlaod any of plans, exercises, etc... Also, we never did get the movie to play. Finally, I was amazed at how the page looked on a friend's pc vs. what I was seeing on my Mac.

      Oh, and the links often did not work.

      We have found the forum to be immensely helpful!

      Marie Hopper in NC
      Skuas Coach


    4. Message by: JACDD 11/02/2001 16:35:53 GMT
      This is my first year, so I can't compare it to previous years. However, I find the forum both useful and frustrating. The biggest problem is it doesn't work right. At first I would only get a page not found error when clicking CHECK MESSAGES. Now I finally get messages, but the subscriptions only seem to half work. For a while it would get an HTTP error when clicking GO after changing a subscription, but that seems to be fixed now. However, CHECK MESSAGES isn't obeying the subscriptions. I occasionally encounter messages in folders I have definitely unsubscribed to. The little button a the bottom show "subscribe" instead of "change subscripts", and it verifies that neither of the boxes are checked if I click SUBSCRIBE, but I have to wade thru the messages anyway. I have limited time, and I'd really rather not waste it reading about tournaments in California when I'm in Massachusetts.

      Overall, I think the forum is useful, although the signal to noise ratio is rather low. Every other message seems to be from some idiot who can't read the rules (Does it really really mean you can't touch the robot when it says "you can't touch the robot"...). Whatever you do next year, it is very important you allow good filtering by topics, especially the geographically oriented ones since any of them will only apply to a small fraction of all the users.

      I was also dissappointed by the lack of tournaments and the tournament signup process. I particularly couldn't see a reason why we couldn't sign up for more than one state tournament, at least with the second one as an alternate in case we can't get into the first. I don't mind you limiting each team to going to one state tournament, but you should be allowed to sign up with a preference order. We are about equally close to the RI and CT tournaments and had to pick one without even knowing what each tournaments capacity is and how many teams are in the general geographic area. You should also receive a confirmation that the signup request has been received. So far we have heard nothing from the RI tournament we applied to, and don't know if our application never made it, they are full, will let us in but not tell us for another week, or whatever.


    5. Message by: BOB 11/03/2001 08:24:03 GMT
      Last year they did let us pick up to 3 places and put 1st choice, 2nd choice, 3rd choice. This year I was surprised we only got to try out for one, to just put all your eggs in one basket. I do agree that it would be nice to at least know how many other teams are in a particular state before you apply for that state, especially since in-state teams are placed first and leftoever spots are given to out-of-state teams.

      I do remember there were problems last year with some teams ending up assigned to events they hadn't even applied for (for example, some Northern Cal teams ended up with spots for Southern Cal when they had only put down N. Ca. as their only choice).


    6. Message by: BOB 11/06/2001 09:42:28 GMT
      It would also be nice to be able to search team webpages by team number. The FLL website was updated with registered teams for each state event, but only the number is listed, no team names. So you can't take any of those numbers and be able to see what team they belong to or what state they are in.

      Back in 1999, FLL has a clickable map and you could easily tell how many teams were in a particular state. While they did have some problems with it, it was a nice feature. But they haven't had it at all for 2000 or 2001. So we have no idea how many teams are even in our various states. It would be nice to know how many other teams are in a state before you attempt to apply to that state's event. Then you would have some idea if you had a chance at getting in or not. This is especially important to out-of-state teams, since they are placed after in-state teams.


    7. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 08:02:45 GMT
      While the forums are good and have provided lots of useful information, I'd like to also see some other things used to help out coaches and teams in between seasons.

      Each year people participate in the forums and then afterwards there is no communication until the next FLL forum begins. Then people start it all over again.

      What would be nice if there was a mailing list or message board for potential coaches to get questions answered about how FLL works before the actual season begins. What currently happens is that new team coaches learn as they go at the same time as they are also trying to do the challenge. If they had a place to ask questions and discuss how to organize teams ahead of time, that would be very helpful. You can require list members to register to cut down on spammers posting ads or harvesting email addresses.


    8. Message by: Unibots 11/20/2001 03:50:51 GMT
      Feel free to subscribe and contribute to SouthBayFLL@yahoogroups.com.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    9. Message by: BOB 11/21/2001 09:03:27 GMT
      Thanks, Unibots.

      A few months ago we did start a general robotics list (not just FLL) that can be found here:
      http://www.jsoft.com/archive/robotics/

      I guess what I was thinking of was of more of an official FLL mailing list. Where sometimes people from FIRST could contribute too.


Discussion: tshirts and patches By: BOB 12/22/2001 02:19:46 GMT
We missed not having official challenge tshirts this year. Our kids loved the glow in the dark volcano pictures from last year. They still wear them.

Bring back the tshirts!

Also in 1999, you had a patch that people could sew on their clothes. Since many scout groups have FLL teams, its nice to have patches to put on uniforms showing what you have done.

I put in as a suggestion at the end of last season to bring back the patches but no luck.

Please consider bringing back patches and tshirts for next year. We don't mind paying for quality.

  1. Message by: arctic droidz 11/09/2001 18:20:42 GMT
    They shouldn't bring back t-shirts, because you can't pick the picture on your shirt. This year you can put whatever you want on them.


    1. Message by: BOB 11/10/2001 05:38:01 GMT
      I don't understand your objection. Teams have always been able to design and create their own tshirts. Most teams did exactly that.

      No one forced a team to buy the ones that were offered. We just liked having the option of buying them if we wanted to.

      Our kids loved the glow in the dark volcano tshirts from last year. We were hoping for something with an Arctic theme this year.

      So bring back the tshirts!


    2. Message by: madscientists 12/03/2001 02:52:14 GMT
      I'm curious to find out how teams designed and printed their team t-shirts. How did your team input into the design? Were the t-shirts printed by iron-on transfer, screen printing, or some other method? What did you think of the process? What kink of costs were involved?

      Please post replies in this forum. Thanks!

      Mark, Coach, Team 184


      1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 12/03/2001 04:41:24 GMT
        Hi Mark,

        We priced both screen printing and embroidery and finally decided to save a few $$ by going the iron-on-transfer route with $8 T-shirts from Target! And the shirts were kind of a khaki color so that if we burned the transfers you couldn't tell :-) :-)

        A really fun part of this whole project for all of us was the T-shirt design. Two of the boys who are very proficient with Printshop designed a beautiful team-name logo for the front. Then we put our sponsor's logo on one sleeve. On the back, each shirt featured the player's first name, a team number he selected, and a "famous expression" we noted during the season. For ex, if one kid always said, "Why doesn't the robot ever do as he's told?" then we put that on the back of his shirt. We had a lot of laughs with this part of it.

        Mary Kay
        Coach, St. Joe's #1, "Young Einsteins!"


      2. Message by: Skuas 12/04/2001 03:06:04 GMT
        Our team has a member who is very talented in the art arena. She drew up a choice of pictures, the team gave its input, she then completed the design and got team approval. Then she hand-painted all 8 shirts! They looked great and we received quite a few compliments on our shirts. In fact, the judges loved them and they were mentioned both times our awards were announced!

        Marie Hopper
        Skuas team 1431

        M


    3. Message by: A.R.C.T.I.C. 12/03/2001 06:10:29 GMT
      We had two team members work up a design, then we had the design silkscreened. It cost us a little over $300 for 30 shirts, and we thought they were well worth what we paid. The t-shirts used by most silkscreen companies are far superior quality to those you buy cheap at Target, so they should last a really long time. We are hoping that we need to wear ours several times over the next few weeks -- at regionals, state, and nationals, of course!!!


    4. Message by: BOB 12/04/2001 09:19:12 GMT
      Our team did various artwork and came up with a combined effort and then we had them silkscreened.

      We found a local place in Houston that was fairly reasonable and they turned out well.

      We had a couple of sponsors that had contributed towards our costs, so put their logos on the back of the shirt.

      The silkscreen quality was very good. We had bright green shirts and used one color - blue for the design. It averaged just under $10 a shirt (that included the shirt itself) The shirts were Haynes 100% cotton and well made. It was cheapest to do 25 of them, so we gave some to our sponsors as well.

      We plan on wearing them to various events and demos and they should last a long time.


    5. Message by: madscientists 12/08/2001 05:27:49 GMT
      I can share my t-shirt experience for this year now that my t-shirt order has arrived.

      I found a place on the web called t-shirts.com which has the capability to print small quantities of shirts in color. They generate a laser image transfer from a computer graphics file and then use a heat press to transfer the image onto a 50/50 poly/cotton T-shirt. They claim to need the 50/50 poly/cotton shirt rather than 100% cotton for graphics quality. The area where the transfer was ironed onto the shirt is also stiffer due to the iron-on, but it doesn't seem to affect the comfort of the shirt.

      Pricing was $10.25 per shirt for 11-20 shirts ($11.24 per shirt for 6-10 shirts) for single side printing including the shirt. Delivery was UPS from metro Chicago (2 days to Wisconsin). It's nice to have a multicolor print option as well -- I have the impression that they could also handle scanned photographs.

      My one gripe about the ordering was that t-shirts.com notified me by e-mail that they could not open the original graphics file in the recommended *.wmf format. I needed to send additional graphics files (*.jpg, *.bmp) to use, and it took a few days and a phone call to their customer service department to relay the new files onto the graphics department. That delay (along with not placing the order until 8 business days before regional) meant that the Mad Scientists wore lab coats over non-matching t-shirts for the regional competition. However, they will have t-shirts for the state tournament.

      I also had kids who wanted to draw a team mascot, so the best mad scientist drawing from the team became the graphic. I just needed some additional WordArt and a good scanner to complete the graphics file. I didn't try to grab a FLL graphic from the web, as t-shirts.com discouraged that due to possible issues with low graphic quality.

      - Mark, Coach, Team 184


    6. Message by: B/TREK 12/18/2001 02:39:51 GMT
      hi in i went to flamingtext.com and had fun. (go to the website and scroll down and click on iconian fonts, then have fun) then we had a sponsor take it to a tee shirt maker who made (copied) the logo screen art and made our shitrs. i think the cost for the art work was around 20.00. plus the shirts...enjoy, therese


    7. Message by: Unibots 12/22/2001 02:19:46 GMT
      You might also look into cafepress.com, they do excellent
      work at reasonable prices.

      -Peter


Discussion: Helping teams get in touch with each other By: BOB 11/21/2001 09:00:41 GMT
Back in 1999, FLL teams could easily see how many registered teams were in their state. It was a nice clickabe map. That was not available for either 2000 or for this year.

While we can post messages at the forum, it would be nice if there was an easier way for teams to get in touch with other.

This would be especially helpful if you are trying to do local events. If you can go to a potential host and say we have X number of teams in this area, that makes them more likely to be willing to host an event.

It would also be a way to help FLL grow since it would facilitate teams networking more with each other.

  1. Message by: Arctic Snow Monsters 11/15/2001 05:36:50 GMT
    An easy way to do this would be to add City and State fields to the form the teams fill out when they create their teampage. Then you would be able to group them more easily and search for other teams in your area.

    Coach Dennis Wilson
    dpwilson@ix.netcom.com


    1. Message by: BOB 11/21/2001 09:00:41 GMT
      Great idea, especially since the team webpages are already searchable anyway. It wouldn't require that much more work to at least include the state.


Discussion: shipment and registration process By: BOB 12/18/2001 06:06:18 GMT
The registration and shipment process was more difficult than it needed to be.

When a team registered, there really needs to be an email confirmation of their order and changes. Because all teams are required to have an email contact, there really isn't a good reason why an email confirmation shouldn't be sent.

Every other online order I've ever done ALWAYS sends an email confirmation and makes it easy to check on your order status.

As you entered in your registration and order, you were never quite sure if it went through or not. And of course when you called, there just seemed to be only one person who knew what was going on. It would cut way down on the number of phone calls that teams would have to make.

That lack of confirmation created a lot of extra stress on teams concerning the state tournament registration. Because that was only open for a limited time, not having an email confirmation of what state and event a team had registered for created more pressure than there needed to be.

Also you had to register for state events before you even knew what local events were going to be held. The information about the local events wasn't available until after the state registrations had already closed. Since each team only had one vote, they needed to pick carefully. When people saw *** by a state name, most would assume that they would first qualify via a local event to get into that state event. But that wasn't always the case. For example, for Tenn it had an *** by it, which implied it first had a local event. But in reality, their local event is an expo that is being held in Feb and had nothing to do with teams qualifying for the Tenn state event. Next year it needs to be less confusing and local info about qualifying events needs to be updated before the registation process starts so teams can make better informed votes about what state to cast their vote with.

And there also didn't seem to be a way to go back and review your order once it was placed. Or if there was, I couldn't figure it out. Most online shopping places let you do that quite easily. The process needs to be revamped and be more like a 'shopping cart' format like other online ordering places.

Regarding the kits themselves, it would have been helpful to have an itemized packing slip so you could easily tell if you were missing anything or not. While we got our kits in a timely manner (mid Sept), many teams didn't get their kits until just a week ago. Those teams have to be way behind other teams who got their kits weeks earlier. Last year most got their kits by mid-Aug.

Some teams had been told that they would have to share kits or that there were no kits for them. That seems very unfair, especially considering the cost of registration for teams. FLL had set up in advance a limit on the number of teams, so should have had at least that number of kits to cover each team. And FLL knew ahead of time that teams would need their kits in time to do the challenge, so should have had all the kits ready to go in August.

Overall we really like the mats that were used this year and are very, very thankful that the table building did not turn into a month long project like last year with the volcano. Thanks for making that simplier.

Anyway, I think FLL has come along way, but as with every year, it's a learning process and there's room for changes and updates.

thanks,

Susan

  1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 11/04/2001 17:15:28 GMT
    Thank you for requesting our feedback. We're a rookie team and are very excited about the opportunities presented by FLL. That said, I do have a suggestion which is given, and I hope received, in the spirit of trying to improve one part of the rocess.

    My suggestion has to do with Shipping of products. Pitsco needs to start being brutally honest about shipping dates and expectations. We were weeks behind other teams in getting our mat. Now we're dealing with the same problem getting Robolab 2.5. I ordered it two weeks ago and was told that it would arrive in two days. Two weeks later, I'm told that it's backordered (surely they knew that when I called the first time). What if it arrives before the tournament but not in time to really learn the software and use it? Another $60 down the drain?

    FLL is a fabulous opportunity but it's very expensive. Let's respect the fact that some of these teams are self-funded and be honest with them about what to expect. Most families putting up this much cash are taking that money away from something else. Let's repay their sacrifice with honesty.

    Mary Kay
    Coach, St. Joe's #1


    1. Message by: Techno Wizards 11/05/2001 06:21:46 GMT
      I agree with Mary ay and second her input. It was a tough fall with the situation in New York and DC but I was told that not enough kits were ordered last spring even when Pitsco encouraged a larger order. If you say 1500 teams can compete, then there should be 1500 kits ready to go. Is the time line correct on the International web site? I thought we had until September 30 but the first batch of kits went out the end of August. I would have registered our team earlier.
      We are having a great time with the program and I know a lot of these problems won't be around next year but the right people should know the undue stress teams are facing.
      Thanks for listening.


    2. Message by: BOB 11/06/2001 09:55:32 GMT
      I think that's a very important point about teams being self-funded for the most part. We did FLL last year and went to an event, this year there were many people interested but the cost of registration stopped them.

      I know some other people involved with other robotics challenges but they haven't had to pay anything. Their teams were given their kits and they were even assigned a mentor. So cost hasn't been a factor for them, only limits on the number of teams being accepted. In contrast with FLL, we know we'll have to come up with the money ourselves.

      Since space is limited to a certain number of teams, then that's how many kits should be ready to go in August. Repeated calls to Pitsco in late Aug/early Sept said they were all ready to go but were still waiting on parts and the mats from FIRST.

      There was also a marked difference between this year's FLL and last year's challenge. Last year, we received email updates on a regular basis throughout the summer and into the weeks leading to the challenge. This year the email updates have been few and far between. When shipments were delayed, there needed to be more information relayed.

      When we received our kit, there was no itemized parts list, so we weren't sure if we had everything or not. The light sensor and mats were on backorder, and we had no idea when they would show up. They just appeared one day. I don't think there should have been a backorder on light sensors. In the registration process, it said you would need an extra light sensor, so they should have had the supply there already since each team would be ordering at least one.


    3. Message by: BOB 11/06/2001 10:05:54 GMT
      Techno Wizards,

      Kits had always started shipping in August until this year. Up until this year, the challenge wasn't revealed until early Oct but this year it came in Sept (although it was later than origally announced). So normally you would have parts before you knew what the challenge was. It was nice having at least that part out of the way. For new teams in particular, it's good to have the team manual before it gets too busy. While there's not tons of information, it does provide some clues on what to expect.

      We registered back in May because we wanted to make sure to get in since we knew they only had 1500 spaces. But I didn't get an email notice about it. I just kept checking the FLL website to see it open up.

      I do have a comment about the team binder. Each year it gets skinner and skinner. But the amount of info you are supposed to print out and put inside of it gets bigger. The website info you need to print out for the team manual won't fit in that skinny little thing. We're using 2 binders just to fit all the info and that doesn't include our own info like team logs, pictures ect. That's just to print out the rules, building instructions and the challenge mission ect. The contruction pages for the kit took up about 50 pages.


    4. Message by: Oak Creek Ice 11/12/2001 06:11:16 GMT
      Here in Wisconsin, thanks to the efforts of some very committed, hard-working volunteers, I believe, we're fortunate to have both local and state tournaments. Not all states' teams are as fortunate. I feel each team should be guaranteed a berth in at least one tournament. While I'm not trying to over-emphasize the competitive portion of the program, without it the teams are essentially small clubs. Don't get me wrong - I think FLL is super, but $150 should get you tournament access. At the very least, if tournament access is not guaranteed, that should be stated very clearly early in the registration process so teams will not be misled.


    5. Message by: BOB 11/12/2001 09:55:29 GMT
      I agree with your comments except for the price part.

      $150? Try higher. It cost most than that for a team. It cost us over $350 to register our team this year and get the mat, the only reason it didn't cost us even more was because our team is using our own personal Lego Mindstorms kit. Otherwise it would have been another $200. That high price tag with no guarentee of actually having an event kept many potential teams from registering.

      We had hoped that Texas would have an event this year. At Mindfest in Dallas earlier in the year, one of the Lego people had talked of meeting with the state officials in the governor's office to see about setting up an FLL event this year. Alas, nothing came of it.

      So we'll be going to Arkansas again this year, a 12 hour drive, but that's the closest event for us. But at least we get to go somewhere.


    6. Message by: Oak Creek Ice 11/12/2001 21:18:06 GMT
      You're right, the $150 registration fee is...(sorry about this one).. just the tip of the iceberg. The total
      team outlay is much greater. You and your team's willingness to repeat that long trek to Arkansas shows great dedication and team spirit. I'm guessing/hoping it was lot's of fun last year. I bet you have a wonderful group. Have a great time at the tournament!


    7. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 07:24:36 GMT
      Thanks, Oak Creek.

      We were able to cut down on some of our costs by using our own personal Lego Mindstorms kits but overall, it's very expensive to register a team. The cost is what keeps many from starting teams, especially since they don't know when they register if there is an event for their state or not.

      The registration process needs more follow up. Here we are just 2 weeks away from December when most teams will be at events and the main website here still has not been updated other than the numbers of teams that got in.


    8. Message by: BOB 12/04/2001 09:47:27 GMT
      The Against all Odds winner for the Arkansas FLL event was a team that registered but did not get a kit. (no big surprise there).

      I would imagine other teams will be in the same situation. Next year, it would be good if there's enough kids to go around for all registered teams who need them.


      1. Message by: Harrison 12/04/2001 19:09:49 GMT
        The team from Siloam Springs that won the against all odds didn't know to order the mat or challenge pieces for the table. They came to my school for one of our Saturday practices to watch us and look at our table. When they saw my table they realized some of their pieces were built wrong. They heard about the competition because one of my students was the grandson of their teacher, but they really didn't know what to order in order to compete. I talked with their coach several times, but they had lots of problems. This was my second year. I ordered all of my stuff the first week of June and received everything in time. The only problem we had with parts was a couple broken motors which couldn't be ordered from Pitsco because they were back ordered. Luckily some of my students have the kit at home.


    9. Message by: BOB 12/06/2001 08:38:53 GMT
      In that case, that brings up another point. We knew what to order because we had competed before, but I could understand a first time team not knowing that some of those optional items like the mat and playing field elements are in their best interest to order.

      But as far as building the pieces wrong, the instructions were pretty clear on how to build all the elements. It took us several hours to print out the instructions but once printed, our kids had no problems with putting the pieces together.

      I also ordered in May or June and got things as soon as shipments starting going out the door. Although the registration period goes until Sept, for most teams it won't be clear that they sould register over the summer.


    10. Message by: JACDD 12/06/2001 15:37:58 GMT
      We are a first year team, and had no problem figuring out what to order. Of course I actually READ the stuff on the web page. I see no excuse for ordering the wrong stuff, whether you are a first year team or not.

      I am dissappointed that the Against All Odds awards seem to be going to teams that created their own problems. This award should be for teams that overcame obstacles they could not have reasonably prevented.

      I also thought the building instructions were quite clear, although they took a long time to download and print. However, you still have to be careful. At the tournament last weekend, the new instrument was built wrong on 3 of the 4 competition tables. We didn't notice this until it didn't fit into our carefully designed jig during a match. I went back later and showed the judges the picture and they fixed the errors.


    11. Message by: BOB 12/08/2001 09:15:14 GMT
      Last year the Against All Odds winners at the event I was at included a team whose coach had to have an operation last minute, so the team was there coachless for the event.

      Most of the Against All Odds winners from prior years seemed to be those who didn't bring computers to competitions.


    12. Message by: B/TREK 12/18/2001 02:55:00 GMT
      well you are every fortunate that you were able to buy your set outside from fll. in my first year I tried, but they said "I had to buy it through them" the best thing I tell my team members is we are going to play by the rules, no matter if they make no sense. therese


    13. Message by: BOB 12/18/2001 06:06:18 GMT
      Actually that's not quite correct. Our challenge set came directly from FLL, but we used a Lego Mindstorms kit we already had. You are permitted to use Lego Mindstorms kits that you purchase from retail stores. The Rules allow anything in a standard kit plus the special pieces that are sent each year for the challenge. But you still have to order the challenge kit from FLL - I think they call it the "upgrade" kit. We did the same thing last year. We already had a Lego Mindstorms kit, so it saved on expenses not to have to get everything including the RCX from FLL.

      I know you do have the option to order everything from FLL, but if you do that, then you don't get your RCX and software until your kit arrrives in the fall. And since there's no price discount over the $200 you pay for that portion of the kit, there's no real advantage to getting the entire thing from FLL.

      We always like spending time before the actual challenge period begins with just learning more about Mindstorms/RoboLab. It's helpful to the kids if they are familiar with the RCX units and programming before you get into the 8 week challenge period.


Discussion: Tubes used to mail the playing field mat By: Unibots 11/12/2001 17:57:38 GMT
The playing field mats are great! (I'd like them to be sturdier, but haven't had a separation problem yet) but
the tubes used to ship them were really poorly done:

I received 1 of my mats with one end cap broken.
I received the other of my mats with NO end caps, just
TINY bare staples sticking straight through to the inside
of the tube. My wife, who has low vision brought it in
the house when she got home and did not see the staples
which left a nasty long scratch down her arm.

I'm surprised the mat and dual lock were even still in the
tube. Regardless, the shipping container for the mats needs
to improve big-time, those staples were not strong enough to
hold the end caps in against the weight of the mats.

-Peter
Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers

  1. Message by: BOB 11/11/2001 08:03:52 GMT
    That's different from what we got. Our tube had end caps on both ends, no staples and had clear plastic sheets on both ends so the caps would not fall off. The plastic sheets were held on by large pieces of clear tape wrapped around the tube, so nothing would fall off.

    We received our mat several weeks ago, maybe they changed their packaging on later shipments?

    We also really like the mats, big improvement over having to use all that black tape last year.


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/11/2001 09:44:09 GMT
      Oh yes! No doubt, the mats are a stroke of genius vs. last
      year. When you consider the number of questions last year
      about "which blue electrical tape" was used, which brand
      of melamine, etc. Having the mats is the one way to
      ensure everyone has at least some chance of having a
      field consistent with the tournament field. Last year
      at the state tournament there were even some practice
      fields that were "off" enough that if you tuned your
      program to the practice field you'd flub the tournament
      field.

      My point, I guess, is that things are *much* better this
      year than last w.r.t. the playing field. Though it would
      have been nice if all teams could have gotten one, I'm
      sure FIRST, LEGO, and 3M will get that right next year!

      I'm glad to hear they figured out the shipping container
      issue later in the game, I was pretty disappointed
      by the condition of the tube and counted myself lucky
      that my mats and dual-lock survived the ordeal!

      -Peter


    2. Message by: JACDD 11/12/2001 17:57:38 GMT
      Our tube showed up with a white plastic cap in one end and transparent packing tape covering the other. I guess the other cap came off in shipping and someone taped over the hole. The end of the rolled up mat was actually stuck to the tape. I also got caught by the staples. I didn't notice them protruding after removing the plastic cap. I ended up with blood all over the mat before I noticed I had gotten cut. Fortunately most of the blood was on the bottom and the rest cleaned off easily since it was still wet.


Discussion: unibots By: DaVinci Blue Dragons 12/30/2001 16:17:38 GMT
How come I see you all over this forum? You're everywhere!

  1. Message by: icebergs 11/06/2001 03:49:22 GMT
    Thanks for posting your messages, Peter. It's been a big help to our team!


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/06/2001 07:17:38 GMT
      Because I care about FLL and I believe that one of the
      small ways I can help other than in my small corner
      of the world is to be helpful on this forum. As
      a former employee of National Instruments (the makers
      of LabVIEW upon which ROBOLAB is based) and a Software
      Engineer (not to mention a die-hard LEGO fan) I am
      reasonably qualified to answer a fair number of the
      questions that appear here.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    2. Message by: Unibots 11/06/2001 07:18:19 GMT
      Icebergs -- Thanks! I appreciate the appreciation :-)

      -Peter


    3. Message by: RIVER SCHOOL 11/06/2001 23:57:21 GMT
      Unibots,

      I absolutely agree. Thanks for all of your answers and info you have supplied. It has been a big help to me.

      Jackie


    4. Message by: Techno Wizards 11/08/2001 05:06:49 GMT
      This forum has been great! Our team wouldn't have stayed together without it. There is so much information that you can't tell until people ask. I feel better to hear people's trys and mistrys. We are in this together. My team is having a blast. Thanks to everyone for using the forum.


    5. Message by: icebergs 11/26/2001 19:22:57 GMT
      Peter *
      We*ve been having fits programming with the RIS 2.0 software, specifically with the follow the line algorithm. Next year (if we do it again) we*re thinking of trying the Robolab software. What is your opinion about the two software choices?

      For everyone*s info, here are some of the problems (and fixes) we have had:

      We found that using the light sensor watchers worked more reliably than other methods for following the ice lead. We used different priorities on the stacks, setting a variable at the bottom of a stack to allow it to go to the next stack. For example, the follow the line stacks were at priority 3 (dark: turn left, bright: turn right etc.). Then when the touch sensor was tripped, the program jumps to that stack of commands at priority 2. At the bottom of this stack we set the variable GotIt=1. Then we had another stack (if GotIt=1) with priority 1. This is a very awkward way to program a sequence of events, sort of like using GO TO commands in a FORTRAN program. (Am I showing my age?)

      Getting out of the boat with the sensor watchers was a problem, however. We tried a Priority 1 main stack with a Forward command and it went out of the boat and just stopped. Although the light sensor should have triggered another stack, since one of those sensors would always be true. When we moved the robot by hand over to the edge of the line, it triggered the sensor watcher stacks and off we went. Finally we programmed a high priority stack with a variable watcher: go forward, then turn right until the light sensor sees a dark line. Then change the variable value so it never does that stack again. This worked most of the time since now the robot coasted to a stop near the line.

      We also tried Yes/No commands to follow a line, making the resulting structure a My Block. This makes for a more normal program flow. Only problem here was the robot tended to get lost sometimes. So we tried reducing the time interval below 0.1 sec. Sometimes the software allowed this and we tested our program successfully. Then later we tried to modify something else in the program and found the software wouldn*t let us make changes, or even download the same program we had run earlier: *unrecognized brick error.* By trial and error we figured out it didn*t like a time interval of 0.01 sec. No error message when programming, however!

      We also tried using a *Repeat Forever* command within a My Block for following a line. Software didn*t allow attaching this My Block brick to anything, since it didn*t like the repeat forever command. But no error message!

      We have had several other frustrating programming experiences, tempting us to throw a (non-LEGO) brick at the computer (which so far we have resisted). But we*re learning, and we wonder if the RoboLab software is a little more robust. I*m planning to ask other teams at the tournament which software they are using.

      Dale Murrish
      Team 611 Coach
      Imperial Icebergs
      imperialicebergs@aol.com


    6. Message by: Unibots 11/26/2001 21:42:13 GMT
      As a software engineer, I personally believe that Robolab is a more valuable programming environment to expose kids to, for the following reasons:

      1. The constructs more closely resemble more traditional
      programming language (C, Pascal, Basic, etc.) constructs
      that are more likely to be encountered later on
      (Botball, for example, uses Interactive C) to program
      the robot.

      2. The "visual" form of the programming constructs will,
      I believe, have a lasting effect should the kids move
      on to a text-based language. The ability to visualize
      what the program is doing will help.

      In essence, with Robolab, you are building a flowchart for
      the program (albeit, decorated a bit with some necessary
      input elements) which is almost exactly what they'll learn
      in introductory programming classes.

      That's just my opinion. I also feel comfortable in ROBOLAB
      because I worked with LabView when I was an intern at
      National Instruments about 15 years ago.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


      1. Message by: Bolton 1 12/08/2001 07:01:17 GMT
        Dear Peter,
        You are the Rob Lab guru! Can you please tell us how to fix our program so all of the icons line up nicely? We want to print it for our display board. There must be some simple way to do that ??? Also, do you know a way to print the program without the purple background? We are cutting and pasting into paint and then into Word or Publisher. Is there an easier way? We really respect your reply to all. When we were rookies last year, you answered a lot of our questions just by reading your reply's We too believe that Rob Lab is the way to go. You can write a better program but it does take more time. Our main complaint is there is no instruction book or anywhere we know of to really find out what the icons do beyond the help menu. We called Pitsco and asked to speak to the program etch and he couldn't answer our questions.... maybe you can. If you create a sub I program with 10 steps and use it more than one time in a program, will the second time count as just 1 step in the RCX memory or 10 steps? We think the second time it will only count as one step. Pitsco did not know.
        Thanks for your help. Bolt on Bulldogs 1


    7. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/29/2001 15:52:48 GMT
      icebergs,
      I would not recommend using sensor watches for any of the programs in this competition. The robot usually needs to follow a task list of some sort and sensor watches are set up to watch for one specific task. We use a my block that has a line follower in it with the rotation sensor wrapped around it using repeat until rotation sensor is > x. The inner line follower is just a set of yes no blocks to decide what to do for each condition of the two light sensors (2 sensors = 4 discrete conditions, left & right light, left & right dark, left light & right dark, left dark & right light). This makes a simple my block that can then be used to follow the line for a set distance with a set x = number of rotations prior to the my block. This allows the robot to make each movement independent and gets you from place to place, then make a decision on what to do next.

      --Dave Kolberg


    8. Message by: LegoLegion 11/29/2001 18:04:31 GMT
      icebergs,
      I agree with Righteous2. In GENERAL, you probably won't want to use sensor watches.
      However, there is one case where they are extremely useful, i.e., for long programs. RISv2.0
      has a limit to the number of blocks in a single "stack". I'm not sure what the exact number
      is but we have run into the limit a few times. RISv2.0 just says the stack is too long and won't
      let you add any more blocks.

      To get around this we use a sensor watcher on a variable to switch to a new stack. In pseudo
      code it looks like this


      Main Stack watch my_variable=1 watch my_variable=2
      ---------------- ----------------------- ----------------------
      set my_variable=0
      set my_variable=2 set my_variable=0
      set my_variable=1
      end


      This also makes long programs somewhat easier to read since the individual stacks represent
      major segments of the mission the program is trying to accomplish.

      jps for LegoLegion


    9. Message by: JACDD 12/08/2001 21:21:59 GMT
      I'm not Peter, but I can answer some of your questions.

      You can line up icons in various different ways by using the obscure entries on the toobar at the top of the diagram window. Click on the left one and you get 6 (from memory) choices of how to line up icons. I use justify at top edge most of the time. Aligning icons is most useful BEFORE you string them together. Otherwise you can end up with ugly bends in the strings even though the icons are all neatly lined up.

      You can't print without the blue background. I even called Pitsco to ask that. Yes, I think this is incredibly stupid too. It essentially makes the print feature useless.

      A subroutine is only stored once, regardless of how many times it is called. They work just like real subroutines. I don't know if a call is exactly one "step", but that's basically the idea.

      Sub-blocks, however, are macros not subroutines. The contents of the sub-block is replicated every time you use it.


    10. Message by: madscientists 12/14/2001 06:46:44 GMT
      Printing programs from Robolab . . .

      My answer for printing from Robolab without the background color is as follows:

      - Highlight a section of the program.
      - Hit "control C" to copy
      - Open a word processing program or MS Powerpoint
      - Paste that section as a picture
      - Resize the picture as necessary
      - start a new page in the word processing program or MS Powerpoint
      - Repeat until done cutting and pasting the program. Paste new sections on a new page

      It is helpful but not necessary to restrict the width of the Robolab program to the screen width on your computer.

      Landscape settings in word processing or MS Powerpoint seems to be better for me -- this allows for more readable icons. Oversized paper is also nice -- I use 8.5 x 14" legal size, but 11 x 17" would be nicer if you can get to a printer with an 11 x 17" paper option.

      I'm still looking for a better method to print from Robolab, but this might be as good as it gets.

      Alternatively, you might be able to change the background color to white. The bottom of the "Tools" palette has an option where the background color can be changed. I have not tried this, however

      As an aside, the background color change is a favorite timewaster for my team's programmers, and it's always helpful to their program debugging when they change the background to a color similar to the wires which connect the variables or the blocks. ;-)

      Mark Beitz, Coach, Team 184


    11. Message by: Unibots 12/22/2001 02:25:57 GMT
      Yes, my programmers like to change the background color
      as well, I hate it when they change it to the same
      blue as the lines from numeric modifiers!

      JACDD has it right, a SubVI works like a macro, if you
      have a subVI with 10 steps it will use 10 steps
      everywhere you use it.

      I gloss over this detail when explaining it to my kids
      (unless they have a jump+land in their subVI, where it
      won't work twice in the same program because you cannot
      have two jumps+lands of the same color in the same
      program) because I find the SubVI to be a closer
      analog to subroutines, in terms of the user-experience,
      than the RoboLab subroutine methodology.

      When I start coaching at the 6th grade+ level, I'll probably
      get into subroutines and tasks with the kids because
      they'll have worked with Robolab before (one step at a
      time :-)

      -Peter


    12. Message by: JACDD 12/22/2001 16:29:22 GMT
      Our team has 4 6th graders and one 5th grader. These kids now understand about subroutines and "blocks" (I don't use the term "macro" because RoboLab doesn't).

      However, this brings up some of my pet peaves about RoboLab. This is all of these kids' first experience with programming, so I would like them to not be forced into bad habits from the start. Unfortunately, RoboLab makes this difficult. I appreciate they have constructs like subroutines and tasks, those are good. But sugar coating some of the other standard computing contructs will make it harder for the kids to learn "real" programming later. For example, I see no benefit in calling a variable a "container". The container manipulation is needlessly cumbersome. By far the worst offense, however, is that you select subroutines by number instead of by name. This teaches exactly the wrong way to think about what a higher level language does for you and how you're supposed to use it. At least in version 2.5 you can enter your own help text for blocks. Lack of documentation is probably the number one bad programming practice among professionals, and I want to make sure the kids learn right from the start that comments and documentation go hand in hand with writing code.


    13. Message by: madscientists 12/30/2001 03:13:42 GMT
      Documentation is another challenge I have when coaching the programming. Some of the problems are perhpas the nature of kids at the age level, but I'm looking for any suggestions beyond what I list here. A couple of notes:

      1. More complex programming requires at least a few words in a text block above an icon to find where a rotation sensor or light sensor setting change needs to be made. It usually isn't until the programmer has to find that spot that it seems important to document something in Robolab!

      2. I'm seeing that typing skills at the 5th-7th grade level appear to be spotty, despite the best attempts of teachers at the school to teach the needed skills. It's sometimes a victory to get 1-4 words in a text box and call it "documentation." Of course, this won't keep me from encouraging documentation, even if those 1-4 words are typed in a very slow "hunt-and-peck" method.

      Curious to see how others handle documentation issues . . .

      Mark, Coach, Team 184


    14. Message by: JACDD 12/30/2001 16:17:38 GMT
      I can't say I've got this solved either, but at least some of the kids understand themselves why documentation is a good idea. I've deliberately got all the kids working on different pieces of the software. This forces them to explain the interface of various blocks and subroutines to each other. They are each discoverting that it's a lot easier to use someone else's block when the help text for that block explains how to use it.

      Just yesterday a kid was working on a program that he hadn't had any contact with in about a month. He couldn't remember how the robot was supposed to be aimed at the start of the program. He had to figure it out all over again by trial and error. After he was done, I suggested this should be in a comment in the program. The response was "Oh yeah, that's a good place to write that down".

      I also find that neatness helps. I work with computers and software professionally, and I've never seen a good programmer that wasn't careful and meticulous, and therefore neat. In fact, this one thing I look at when hiring. If the the program is visually a mess, your thinking process was invariably a mess, and the design will be a mess too. To get back to FLL, I've been encouraging the kids to line up the blocks, string lines in where the help depicts them even if they are accepted elsewhere, to avoid unneccessary twists and turns in the lines, etc. Early on they thought it was fun to make the pink lines do cutesy little loops and stuff. They stopped doing that after having to modify such code a few times. Now two of them (I'm still working on the others) actually pride themselves on how neat their programs are.


Discussion: Promoting FLL in other states By: BOB 12/19/2001 06:35:29 GMT
FLL currently only has tournaments in a handful of states. If it expects to grow to eventually cover all 50 states, then more needs to be done to make it easier for events to be held and the general public to be made aware of FLL.

  1. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 07:43:28 GMT
    One thing I notice with FLL state events is that by and large they tend to be in smaller cities, where the community has gathered together to show local support and put on the event.

    In larger cities, it's much harder for FLL to be noticed because there are already so many other activities by other organizations available. Unless someone has connections, it's close to impossible to get the attention of corporate sponsors to get them to host an event. Many FLL teams are self-funded and just don't have access to the large facilities, let alone the manpower, required to hold an event.

    What would be nice is if FLL has a press kit ready to go to give to potential sponsors. Even if it's something that we could print off of the web site, that would be helpful. This would also be helpful for teams trying to get sponsors to help with paying for their registration fees.

    If FLL could provide teams with at least the total number of other registered teams in their state, that makes it far easier for a company to take it seriously and not just consider that FLL is something few do.

    With a minimum of costs, FIRST could send out press releases to museums and other potential locations across the county explaining what FLL is about, its mission and purpose and past success. Because many museums and organizations now have websites, FIRST wouldn't even have to mail anything. Something coming from FIRST would carry more weight than a coach trying to contact a museum as an individual.

    With the current situation, what you have in many cases is that teams will register for FLL, do the challenge for a year but if they have no chance of going to an event anywhere near them and if they don't have the means to easily communite with other teams in their area, then they are less likely to register for the following year.

    So what could happen is that FLL will only grow to a point, then become stagnent and not continue to reach more students.


    1. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 07:55:12 GMT
      The other thing about FLL events is by and large they are concentrated in certain parts of the country. There's large areas in the middle of the country that have no events at all but probably have registered teams.

      Because many have never heard of FLL, more needs to be done to promote awareness of it. This should happen in between seasons, starting in January long before registration for the next season begins in the fall. This will increase the chances of more events happening by the time the new season rolls around. FIRST should see about publishing articles in education and computer magazines. For public schools, see about putting something into teacher newsletters.

      After the season has ended, press releases should be sent to major newspapers telling about how well teams did.

      Also, many science museums will have robotics classes as part of summer camp. If information about FLL is made available to the science museums that would help increase awareness.


    2. Message by: B/TREK 11/22/2001 18:47:03 GMT
      i don't see why LEGO doesn't get more involed? they are a big enough name i feel to make it happen. theirs nothing more of a let down then not going to a tournament.(state or local) i would like to see it done more like other sports, local, regionals and finals in each state.... anyway, have FUN. therese


    3. Message by: BOB 12/06/2001 08:25:43 GMT
      Back in the summer one of the Texas FLL teams contacted FIRST about trying to get information so they could give it to Dell Computers about having Dell sponsor something in Austin for Texas. Today, almost six months later, someone from FIRST finally got back to her. Too little, too late.

      As the saying goes "the horse has left the barn" for this year. A private school in Dallas has offered for the past 3 years to offer their facility to hold an event IF someone else could come up with funding and with the manpower to run it. It still hasn't happened.

      We'll see if next year can be better. But there really needs to be a better method in place to make it easier for tournaments to get orgazined.

      As a private individual, I just don't have the clout to get a big company to sponsor something as involved as an FLL competition. But if FIRST can make it easier to potential sponsors to do something, then there could indeed be many more tournaments for more states.


    4. Message by: BOB 12/06/2001 08:44:20 GMT
      Speaking of LEGO, I know a store owner in Houston who had been trying for over 6 months now to get LEGO Minstorms kits into her store but she can't get the LEGO rep to get in touch with her. Very frustating since she has customers ready, willing and able to buy kits.

      We did a small information workshop on LEGO Mindstorms at her shop and everyone there wanted to know where to buy kit and how to do FLL teams.


    5. Message by: B/TREK 12/18/2001 13:35:39 GMT
      i really feel that LEGO should spend more money in fulfulling the FLL mission.


    6. Message by: BOB 12/19/2001 06:27:49 GMT
      I don't think that LEGO itself spends much of anything on FLL. FLL is put on by FIRST, a non-profit agency. Like many non-profits they just have a small staff. So while the LEGO name does get associated with FLL, LEGO the mega-company doesn't sponsor FLL.

      FIRST put on a high school robotics competition that depends heavily on corporate sponsorship. Most of the teams don't have to pay to do a FIRST team, sponsors take care of it. In constrast most FLL teams are self-funded and need to come up with over $500 in order to do a team (that's with using their own Lego Mindstorms kits).

      The other thing that I found out this year is that NASA has been actively involved with FIRST. In Texas they spend $75,000 in 1999 putting on a FIRST event. Each year they have spent a great deal of money promoting FIRST in other states as well. In contrast, even though there were quite a few Texas FLL teams each year, NASA has spent $0 on FLL. Because no sponsors have come forward, each year Texas has many FLL teams register but no FLL events. A few teams do go to Arkansas to compete but many do not.

      I think the main reason that no sponsors step forward to do state competitions in Texas is a general lack of awareness of what FLL is, many comanies have never heard of it.


Discussion: Rules By: BOB 11/19/2001 08:20:27 GMT
The rules posted at the main website were ok, but the Q & A posted afterwards was much better. It was much more extensive. Unless teams happen to notice that new Q & A section, they wouldn't know to read them.

When major updates happen to the website, an email reminder would be good.

There was a post at the forums about how at one of the events the judges were not aware of the updated Q&A so did not know that teams could load the barrels at base prior to their 2 minutes starting. Things like this make a difference in timing and points a team can make.

Rules should be uniform and clear. The fact the Q&A was six pages long would indicate that the rules needed to be a bit clearer. Plus the fact that there's been so many questions posted at the forum about what you can and can not do, would imply that the rules were not clear enough for some of the teams and they are confused.

Discussion: FLL advanced By: BOB 12/06/2001 08:30:15 GMT
We would very much like to see an FLL Advanced, for older kids. We've posted comments under the "Life after FLL" topic. But wanted to make sure that feedback was seen by the organizers of FLL.

After age 14 there are still many kids who like to continue working with Lego Mindstorms and RCX units and doing team challenges. Although FIRST does have a high school robotics competition, it's very different because it does not involve using RCX units at all.

What would be nice for the future is if there are two divisions of FLL, a regular one for the 9-14 year olds and then a second one with some overlap say start at 13 or 14 years - 18 year olds. That way 13 or 14 year olds could decide which challenge is better suited to them. (since you can't really judge "grade level" solely by age).

The challenges could have similar themes but more details for the advanced group. I'm not sure what you could call it, but it would be like Junior Varsity in sports, for older kids.

  1. Message by: B/TREK 11/22/2001 18:41:13 GMT
    great idea.......... i've of course always thoght it shoud be for ages 12(like on the box)thru 16. but i'm having FUN anyway. therese


    1. Message by: BOB 12/06/2001 08:30:15 GMT
      Another idea suggested at the FLL competition I went to last weekend:

      have 2 levels of tournaments. First time rookie teams to to Rookie competitions. Less emphasis on competition and everyone who comes get an award for participation.

      Then have a 2nd level of tournaments for the more experienced teams. Regular competition, same type of awards as we do now.

      What that would do is give the first time teams a little less steeper hill to climb while giving more experienced teams a nice competition.


Discussion: Coach Built vs Kid Built By: Skuas 12/04/2001 09:39:42 GMT
At our state tournament, it became known that one of the coaches built and programmed the robot for his team. He felt that since they had started late, that the best way to teach the team how to do things was to do it for them while they watched. He was not shy about sharing this information with anyone! When this situation was brought to the attention of the judges, they felt that there was nothing they could do since the rules didn't say that the coach couldn't do that.

I would like to suggest that the RULES state VERY CLEARLY that the robots are to be designed and built by the kids and that the programming should be done by the kids. I believe that this is the intent of FIRST and FLL. It is unfortunate but I believe necessary to make this explicit in future rules.

Marie Hopper
team 1431

  1. Message by: St. Joseph #1 12/03/2001 04:32:12 GMT
    Marie,

    I'm flabbergasted at both the coach's lack of integrity and the judges' inability to do anything. At our local and state tournaments (Ohio), the interviews for the technical and hypothesis presentations will be done privately without the coach specifically to find out if the kids know the stuff or were handed it. I assumed that that meant there would be grave penalties if the coach had done the work for the kids. But I think you're absolutely right that nothing should be taken for granted. FLL needs to make this explicit. [In fact, I hope you'll write to FLL privately to express this, just in case it isn't picked up from this forum.]

    What a terrible shame if the lesson some kids learned at that tournament was that cheating paid.

    Mary Kay
    Coach, St. Joe's #1 "The Young Einsteins!"


    1. Message by: JACDD 12/03/2001 14:21:14 GMT
      I agree that the kids should be doing the programming, but let's not make too many rules that don't allow for any wiggle room. This is an educational experience first and foremost, and an occasional example from the coach can greatly speed up the educational process. I would rather put up with a few rare cases of abuse than have my hands tied in how best to teach the kids the most stuff in the limited time these overscheduled kids have. In general I trust other people's integrety and hope they trust mine.

      Some of the kids are also envolved with Destination Imagination (formerly called Odyssey of the Mind). They are *VERY* anal about what coaches are allowed to even teach the kids. In the end much less is learned than could be. Even helpful suggestions from the coach are apparently outlawed. Let's not be like that.


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 12/03/2001 20:58:47 GMT
      You mention FIRST and the high school version or FIRST alone (not FLL) is very open about the fact that professionals may design, build, and program the robots. The requirement is that the kids operate and learn. Some teams learn by doing while others learn by watching. But all get interaction with engineers and professionals from industry. FIRST is about education and industrial / professional involvement while leaving the process open to each team. In the FLL tournaments, the Judges ask the kids, not the coaches the questions and the presentations. This places the emphasis on learning. Keep in mind that only one award that can be influenced by coaches programming and building. All the other awards are based on the kids knowledge and experience. Don't get wrapped up in one award, there are several out there to get, including the directors award which is the most presteigese of the awards. This one can not be won by any adult as much as they try. The kids must earn it by demonstrating what they have learned through whatever experience they have had during this event.

      --Dave Kolberg


    3. Message by: BOB 12/04/2001 09:34:21 GMT
      At the event we were at, the judges asked the kids quite a few questions before they made their determinations about who would win what awards.

      But I do understand the point of view of kids vs adults involvement. There really isn't clear rules and there will be vastly different levels of adult vs kid involvement between teams.

      Last year during the Challenge period FLL held a national essay contest. Teams could only submit one essay per team. The rules didn't clearly state that the essay had to be written by a child. One of the 10 year olds on my team last year came in 2nd place in the contest. The winning essay was one written by an adult coach who hadn't even told his team that he was entering. His team got to go to Hawaii with the Jason Project for winning first place. It left me in the difficult position of trying to explain to a 10 year old the lesson that "life isn't always fair". He wrote a nice essay that did get posted to the FLL website but it was not a level playing field to expect a 10 year old to write at the same level as an adult teacher.

      I'm thankful the essay contest did not return this year. When we entered last year, the thought never crossed my mind that an adult would be eligible to enter, that it was not a kid-only contest.

      But don't get me wrong, I don't want to go too far the other way. I like the flexibility that FLL permits, it does help promote creativity and the kids do learn more that way.


Discussion: Printing the challenge By: BOB 12/09/2001 07:15:39 GMT
two comments about printing the challenge:

1. it was a big waste of blue ink and team resources to print out the hypothesis presentation. It was almost unreadable once you printed it because of the blue ink. Because teams are expected to print out the challenge each year, the website needs to be as printer-friendly as possible. Do it as pdf on a white background next time.

2. team notebooks - each year the notebook gets skinner and skinner but what teams are expected to print out gets larger and larger. Just the construction of the field elements alone was over 40 pages. The notebook provided was way too small to hold it. In light of the fact that many teams are spending over $500 for registration, FLL should be able to spring for a 1 inch binder. The team notebook provided should be easy to carry around and easy to use as a quick reference and big enough to hold a print out of the challenge, rules, hypothesis and contruction. Although it is true that most teams will also do their own notebooks with logs, pictures, ect to document their challenge, the team notebook is also important.

3. The rule section was too brief and missed some items. The Q&A section loaded later was good, but unless a team knew to look for that update, they would not have had an idea it existed. For the sake of printing, it would have been good to condense and combine the two sections.

Discussion: FLL and Competition Awards By: Challengers 12/22/2001 02:29:56 GMT
**I posted this question over in North America and one participant asked me to post it here.**

There is an Against All Odds Award that has a description that can be interpetted very loosly by judges. In our competition, the team that won it only worked on the programming for one day and the team consisted of parents and students. The reason they were given this award was because they did not have a laptop until the night before the competition. My students came in 4th place in the scoring at the robotics competition. This team received a big trophy for one day of work inwhich their parents worked on it.

It was hard for me as a teacher to explain to a group of kids who worked through their lunch periods and afterschool while they walked away with a large trophy and my students didn't receive one. I don't think my students would have thought about it if the "Against All Odds" was a recognition certificate or a small size trophy instead of a full size trophy.

Anyone have similiar experiences on this topic? Can anything be done to modify this award or the requirements to receive it?

Marlene

  1. Message by: JACDD 12/17/2001 14:58:01 GMT
    At the Rochester NH tournament on 1 December the Against All Odds award went to a team whos code "got deleted", and who "didn't know" about the hypothesis presentation until one week before.

    That's rediculous! I could see giving them a Stupidity Award instead. Against All Odds should be given to a team that overcame unusual obstacles that they could not have reasonably forseen and prevented. I didn't realize I was disqualifying my team from the Against All Odds award by taking the trouble to actually read the rules, and by teaching my team about backups and insisting they be done after each meeting.


    1. Message by: Unibots 12/22/2001 02:29:56 GMT
      I agree! Most of the time I see Against All Odds going
      to teams who dropped their robot but managed to rebuild
      it in time to compete in later rounds and do reasonably
      well.

      That said, the KIDS shouldn't be blamed for the inexperience
      of their coach, if they managed to pull together a
      reasonable presentation in 1 week AND reconstruct
      their programs from memory, they deserve some credit,
      and perhaps Against All Odds is the right credit they
      deserve.

      Now, if their coach got the mentorship award, the
      judges need to have their head examined :-)

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers



Folder: FLL Tournament Questions 01/27/2002 23:41:12 GMT
What should we bring? Can we use a computer there to reprogram? Will there be a computer available or should we program right before we leave the house? Can siblings and other parents come watch? How much time between each try? Can we go around and watch other teams? How long do regional tournaments last? Will lunch be for sale, do we bring lunch or go off site for pizza and who is buying?! :)


Folder: Life After FLL 11/21/2001 08:57:52 GMT
Discussion on where to go from here for those with 14 year olds who will be too old for FLL next season.

Discussion: other competitions using Mindstorms? By: BOB 11/19/2001 05:06:35 GMT
After someone turns 14, they will be too old to do FLL for next year. What are their options? We've looked at several high school competitions and most of them don't involve using RCX units or programming at all, not even FIRST. FIRST is robotics but very different from using Lego Mindstorms.

The only team competition we've been able to find is BotBall put on by KISS.
http://www.botball.org/
But it costs about $2000 to register a team.

So what other team options are there for kids who like the programming and RCX units and want to continue on from there?

  1. Message by: NH-LIONS 10/31/2001 17:23:34 GMT
    wir hoffen das euer Roboter auseinander f*llt. dan haben wir mehr Cancen


    1. Message by: Snow C.A.T.S. 10/31/2001 18:20:37 GMT
      Here is a University site that sponsors yearly robot competitions. This is similar to FL but it allows other robot processors.. but also allows RCX.

      http://www.robofest.net/

      Jim


    2. Message by: Snow C.A.T.S. 11/01/2001 00:48:11 GMT
      I should have also suggested that you contact the local engineering/technical college/university. There may be some interest in starting a college-led local tournament for the local school community.

      Also, the University of Detroit Mercy sponsors a FIRST Robotics team as well as a very active involvement in FL.

      http://eng-sci.udmercy.edu/precol/all/index.html


    3. Message by: Unibots 11/01/2001 18:16:44 GMT
      botball uses the handyboard and the registration covers
      the cost of all the necessary kits as well as training
      for the coaches. As soon as my daughter moves to 6th
      grade (next year) I'll be coaching botball as well as
      FLL.

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    4. Message by: BOB 11/03/2001 08:48:20 GMT
      In my state there are both FIRST and BEST robotics teams. Neither of those use RCX units at all.

      Texas BEST is in just a couple of weeks, we may go watch just to see how their competition goes.

      Because FIRST doesn't use RCX's most of our kids aren't that interested in going onto that one for High School. They want to continue working with Lego Mindstorms kits. In Texas, NASA had provided financial support for FIRST events for High Schoolers, but they don't provide any support for FLL.

      Robotfest sounds interesting, but that would only be available to those near Michigan.

      botball sounded interesting, but we don't have a spare $2000 sitting around to register. They do have some sponsorship but public schools are given first priority, so I wouldn't expect to get any of those funds as a homeschooler.


    5. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 05:06:35 GMT
      A homeschool team from north Texas won the BEST competition yesterday.

      We're still interested in KISS's Botball, it sounds interesting but the $2000 price tag puts it out of reach for us at this time. We would not qualify for financial aid since we're homeschoolers.


Discussion: FLL By: arctic droidz 11/21/2001 08:57:52 GMT
There should be a Lego Robotics team in High School. Some kids don't want to leave Middle School so they can be on the Lego Robotics Team. I think everyone should be able to be on the Robotics team until they're out of high school, but if they flunk then, make it 18. I think people look forward to going to school (If they like Lego Robotics) so they can have fun, and hang out with they're friends.

  1. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/12/2001 20:03:13 GMT
    FIRST is first and foremost about the high school robotics league. The FLL is an afterthaught to lower the entry fee and get kids interested at an earlier age and drive more interest in the high school league. The high school league is more challenging and costly, but most find partners in industry to help support the high school league.


    1. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 05:02:42 GMT
      But FIRST for highschoolers does NOT use RCX units and does NOT do programming at all. It's a very different type of challenge.

      I agree that there should also be a FLL older version. If you go to the Lego Mindstorms website, the inventions featured are often submitted by college students. And the recommended ages for Lego Mindstorms is 12+. 9 year olds are great builders, but only when the students a bit more mature do they "get" the concepts of the programming.

      Currently FLL stops at age 14. I'd like to see a more advanced version for ages 14 and up. Or even some overlap with ages 13 and above, since age isn't a hard and fast rule for what kids can do.


    2. Message by: Righteous Robots Cubed 11/20/2001 20:03:38 GMT
      FIRST for highschoolers does indeed use programming. There is much more detailed programming involved using a basic type language. It is true that the performance of the robot is not automonous, but that does not mean that programming is not required.

      --Dave Kolberg


    3. Message by: BOB 11/21/2001 08:57:52 GMT
      Are they using NQC? (Not Quite C)
      I guess the main difference then is that FIRST doesn't use the Lego Mindstorms RCX units.

      Our kids really love building and programming the RCXs as doe many adults:

      At our team meeting today, we showed them a clip from Tech TV where a 37 year old had built a Rubic Cube solver. He used 2 RXC unit and vision command and had written his own color recognition program.

      Seems a shame there isn't an FLL for over age 14.


Discussion: What to bring By: Unibots 11/27/2001 15:58:27 GMT
There's another discussion on this topic elsewhere on the forum, but in a nutshell:

Bring a computer (laptop recommended) with whatever software
(ROBOLAB or RIS) you are using to program the robot and all
the programs for the robot loaded on it.

Bring your robot

Bring some kind of box to act as a "cradle" for the robot
as you carry it up to the competition area from your pit table.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I've seen a team drop
their robot as they wait for their round in the "ready area"
near the competition tables. It's a good way to get the
against all odds award though :-)

Bring some kind of "garage" box for your robot and the IR
transmitter to keep it shielded from stray IR from other
teams around you and to keep your IR from others.

Bring anything you need for your hypothesis presentation.

Bring any banners, t-shirts, etc. to show your team spirit.

Bring money and/or food (depending on tournament organizer's
information) to feed the hungry mouths.

Bring earplugs to give yourself some relief from endless hours
of "who let the dogs [bots] out!" at volume 11 :-)

Bring a camera and/or video camera

Bring the kids!

Bring parents to help you keep track of the kids.

Bring LOTS of extra batteries. Especially if your programs
use timing to judge driving distance, as that is VERY
subject to battery strength.

See the other posting for other things that I may have forgotten.

  1. Message by: 6 hyperactive snowballs & a robot 11/19/2001 00:52:25 GMT
    Here are a few more items (we just came back from a
    tournament yesterday):

    AC adapter for the laptop, and a long extension cord

    Floppy disk with all of your programs on it ... in case
    your laptop doesn't work

    A second floppy disk with all your programs on it ... in
    case the first one doesn't work ... you can never be too
    careful about these things :-)

    Spare parts in case some *minor* modification is needed ...
    but watch out for the kids who can't stop tinkering!

    Water in "sports bottles" that (usually) don't spill. After
    trying to talk with each other for a few minutes with "who
    let the dogs out" at volume 11, you'll need it.

    A cell phone if you've got one, so you can let the missing
    parents know what they're missing.

    Double-stick tape. Especially useful this year, since the
    mats may not be flat. Be a hero, save your tournament,
    stick 'em down.

    About batteries and timing: Plan to replace your batteries
    before your final practice session, and then don't run them
    down unnecessarily. If you use fresh, high-quality
    batteries, they should last for the duration of a
    tournament. If you can possibly manage it, don't depend
    on timing (dead reckoning) -- learn to use the rotation
    sensor to measure distance travelled, or navigate by
    line following.

    Finally, about cameras: Infrared autofocus cameras can
    interfere with the RCXs. If you can't turn off the
    autofocus feature, use a different camera.

    The "garage" is an interesting idea -- we haven't tried it,
    but the problem it addresses is a real one. It will be
    difficult to make a garage both practical and light-tight.
    It's good advice to keep your robot turned off when it's
    not running or being programmed. It should be common
    courtesy not to leave an IR tower on in "far" mode, but
    many people don't think about this -- tournament organizers,
    it is worth mentioning this as you welcome teams to the
    pit area.

    Younger siblings of team members are often really
    interested in the tournament ... for the first ten minutes
    or so of an eight-hour event. Bring something fun for
    them. The RCX remote control is probably not the best
    choice, even if they think otherwise. :-)


    1. Message by: madscientists 11/25/2001 22:41:13 GMT
      A piece of black electrical tape to cover the IR receiver on the RCX was allowed in Wisconsin last year. This gives another means to avoid stray IR. Check with your tournament organizer.


    2. Message by: JACDD 11/27/2001 15:58:27 GMT
      I think covering the IR port is a good idea while in a practice area. Keeping the robot off when not absolutely necessary is also a good idea. An IR covering may not be allowed during a competition round, but that shouldn't matter because there is not *supposed* to be downloading in the competition area.

      WARNING: If you do cover the port note that most black electrical tape is actually quite transparent at IR wavelengths. I would use the tape to hold a piece of aluminum foil over the IR port.


Discussion: Long Island Teams Who Didn't Get Accepted to the Tournament in BKLN By: Lego Cosmic League 11/10/2001 17:12:48 GMT
We are two new teams who weren't accepted to the NY tournament. Is there anyone out there who would be interested in doing a small competition. I don't think I have the time to put together all the bells and whistles of a real event, but it would be nice to give the kids an opportunity to meet and compete against another group. Our school is located near Brookhaven National Lab, exit 67?, LIE.
Trish

Discussion: Light at FLL Tournament By: FIRST SPARTANS 12/04/2001 03:20:16 GMT
On the mat where your robot will do your programs there is a shop light you make over the mat area. At the tournament will the overhead lights be on, like the ones on the celing or will only the shop light be on at the top. My final questions is should we only program the robot with the lights in the room on or off? appericate any comments.

  1. Message by: FIS Icers 11/02/2001 15:56:28 GMT
    In previous years, the light sensors were the most difficult to use because of the varying light, even over the different field setups in the gym that was used for the torunament. The reflection differences in the tape used to mark lines also played a role. So, the thought there is no matter what, you will want to calibrate your sensors on an actual playing field at the torunement hall.

    My guess (don't know for sure though) is that all the normal lights will be on, in addition to the flourscent lights mounted above the table, so we have been practicing with room lights on as well. Hopefully the variations between tables at the torunemnts will be reduced though with the addition of the table lights, and the standard mats. I don't see how the tournament could be run with the room lights off - there's too much going on and it's chaotic enough with the lights on.

    Good Luck,
    Edge - FIS Icers team helper


    1. Message by: Unibots 11/02/2001 18:19:08 GMT
      The best advice I can give you if you are using light
      sensors is to build a "shroud" around your light sensor,
      something that will shelter it from ambient room light.

      Last year the Unibot's robot had a shroud that extended
      a little below the end of the light sensor and was about
      1/8 inch above the ground (they had to put a wheel on the
      front of it to help it up the "lip" of the volcano edge)
      the result was that they NEVER had to change their light
      sensor calibration, from the table where we met, to the
      practice tables at the tournament, to the state tournament
      with huge spotlights that were turned on at first, then
      turned off.

      So eliminate the effects of ambient light with a shroud
      so that the majority of the light is from the red LED
      in the light sensor, and you will be glad you did!

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    2. Message by: 6 hyperactive snowballs & a robot 11/19/2001 00:10:48 GMT
      Peter's idea is one we used in past years (our team was
      called Space Case then), but the team decided it was
      important to be able to drive over the ice field, which
      made it just about impossible to "shroud" the light sensors
      (we're using two of them). It's also (usually) a good idea
      to keep the sensors themselves as close as possible to the
      table surface, but not if you plan to cross the ice field.

      On the other hand, the use of a preprinted standard mat
      really helps. We just entered a tournament yesterday that
      was held in a gym lit primarily by sunlight, which was
      changing all day long, and we had no problems at all with
      our line following, which was crucial to our robot's
      performance.

      One other tip from last year that might help: If you use
      RoboLab, use variables ("buckets") for your thresholds, and
      make sure that all of your programs use the same variables
      ... then write a "calibration" program you can run at the
      table just before the round starts. The idea is that you
      hold the sensors over a white area, then over a dark
      area, while the program takes readings. You can use a
      touch sensor to tell the program when you're ready for it
      to take a reading. Then have it calculate the midpoint
      between light and dark and use that as the threshold ...
      or if you want to be a little more ambitious, divide the
      range in thirds and set two thresholds, one for a
      light-to-dark transition, and the other for dark-to-light.
      Since the variables are shared among all of the programs,
      running the calibration program sets the thresholds for
      all of the others. You don't even need to reserve a slot
      for it -- just make your first program run calibration
      if the touch sensor is pressed when you start it, otherwise
      run your first mission.


    3. Message by: FIRST Sharon 11/20/2001 16:43:43 GMT
      If you aren't using robolab, but want to do the same thing, is it possible with RIS 2.0? I haven't seen how we could make variables global in any way.

      --Jack Gregory


    4. Message by: Allied Rescue Weasels 12/03/2001 16:59:15 GMT
      Could you at FLL please ask the tournament staffs to request that NO FLASH PHOTOGRAPHY take place during the 2 minute round? Although we did well and made it to State next week, the camera flash wreaked havok on our light sensor program in our first heat!!!


    5. Message by: BOB 12/04/2001 03:17:41 GMT
      We just finished the FLL Tournament in Arkansas. Out of the four tables there, one was "off" and every single time teams had problems with their light sensors when they used that particular table.

      Our team finished 3rd place on performance, so we were happy for that. But do the math, how can a teams get scores like 160 at one table while getting 310 at another one? It's all in the lighting. In the round that bumped us out, we only got 235 at the 'bad' table.

      The team that won the competition received a perfect scrore of 340 at a good table.

      Also, the lighting was different than we had used. Instead of a single shop light about 6 feet, they used a double set of lights that was about 10 feet high.


Discussion: Notes at the Table? By: ArcticArgonauts 11/19/2001 04:55:44 GMT
Can we bring notes or cue cards to the table? We have several things that need to be remembered before beginning some of the missions. Are the additional team members sitting close to the table?

Thanks,

Arctic Argonauts

  1. Message by: Unibots 11/16/2001 06:06:45 GMT
    Absolutely! My teams always have a checklist for each
    mission at the table with them. One of the things the
    testers do is verify that the checklist is right!

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: 6 hyperactive snowballs & a robot 11/19/2001 00:59:15 GMT
      You can have two team members next to the table, but
      (depending on how the tournament organizers have arranged
      things) the rest of the team may be too far away to give
      useful help.

      You might consider bringing a small tray table with you
      if you have removable attachments for the robot, note
      cards, etc. Some tournament organizers provide these,
      others don't, but they should be allowable even if not
      provided.


    2. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 04:53:07 GMT
      Those small clear plastic bins with lids from Walmart work pretty good for carrying your spare parts.

      A checklist for the two team members to carry with you is a good idea. The rest of the team will be too far away to do good on that part. At the one we went to last year, the rest of the team was about 6-10 feet away, behind a yellow line. Close enough to see easily but not close enough to really help out that much. Coaches stood with the remaining team members, they did not go up to the table.


Discussion: Against All Odds By: BOB 12/16/2001 09:05:53 GMT
At the Arkansas event, the Against All Odds winner was a team who did not get kit. (FLL ran out so not all registered teams got them).

How many other Against All Odds winners were teams without kits?

Just curious.

  1. Message by: JACDD 12/04/2001 14:55:40 GMT
    We were at the Rochester NH tournament this weekend. The Against All Odds award went to a team whose code "got deleted" a couple of days before the event and who "didn't know" about the hypothesis presentation until a week before.

    I think that was an abuse of the award. I could see giving them a Stupidity award. The Against All Odds shouldn't be for self inflicted obstacles. I didn't realize I was doing my team a disservice by actually reading all the rules and by teaching them about backing up software and then insisting they do it after each meeting.


    1. Message by: BOB 12/16/2001 09:05:53 GMT
      Post that in the feedback section. In another part of the forum, someone had a similar complaint at another event.


Discussion: Weater tower By: Gearheads 01/27/2002 23:41:12 GMT
Hi, We're the Shafer Elementary FLL. This is our first year so we're a little behind. We were wondering, we're doing the weather tower, since it is so hard to hit the little stick, we were wondering if we can we add a longer stick so it will be easier to complete the mission???



Write back soon,
Shafer Elementary Gear Heads

  1. Message by: Unibots 12/22/2001 02:31:07 GMT
    No. You cannot modify field elements, though you can
    modify things that start in base and have to be deployed
    by ADDING, but not removing, pieces.

    -Peter
    Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    1. Message by: Gearheads 01/03/2002 21:33:30 GMT
      O.k since this is our first year, we are not going to start any tournaments So, can you give us some pointers or hints on setting off the weather tower.

      P.S Please write back as soon as possible.

      Signed,
      Brian Schwab (a member of the Shafer Gear heads)


    2. Message by: Gearheads 01/03/2002 21:45:55 GMT
      One more question for now, How many programs did you put on the RCX, and can you add more than 5 programs on the Robot?

      P.S Please write back A.S.A.P (Again)

      Thanks,
      Brian Schwab(Still the one from the Shafer Gear Heads)


    3. Message by: JACDD 01/04/2002 15:11:21 GMT
      The RCX can only hold 5 programs at a time, and you can't download software during a competition round (you wouldn't have time anyway). There are lots of ways of dealing with this limitation using some cleverness. This is one area that teams compete on, so I'm not going to discuss our methods, and I hope nobody else does either until all tournaments are over.

      Our last tournament is on 3 March. Does anyone else have a later date?


    4. Message by: Scout Troopers 01/27/2002 23:41:12 GMT
      If your weather tower doesn't pop up when you bump the little stick it may not be made right or the rubber bands may have stretched. Try replacing the bands and then don't leave it set in the stretched position when not running a round. Ours got kinda lethargic after a while. At a tournament they had a tower that didn't go up well, so they gave points for hitting the stick, I think. Good Luck



Folder: Germany 01/09/2002 12:42:15 GMT



Folder: SaltCity 11/11/2001 22:08:15 GMT
We are a team of 10th. Graders at a "Hauptschule" in L*neburg in North Germany. We have called ourselves "SaltCity" because salt used to be extracted from a salt deposit under the medieval town of L*neburg. We would be pleased to hear from any other teams in Germany or anywhere else!

Our new (Lego)homepage
http://people.freenet.de/hs-kaltenmoor/index.htm




Folder: SiemensLions 10/02/2001 09:03:54 GMT
Wir sind auch drin!!!!

Discussion: Tischumrandung/H*he By: Ice Hunter 11/23/2001 09:44:36 GMT
Hallo liebe Mitstreiter,
bisher ist es uns leider nicht gelungen, herauszufinden, wie hoch die Umrandung des Tisches sein wird.

Wer kann helfen ?!

Viele Gr**e von den Ice Hunter

  1. Message by: TurboKaj 10/30/2001 11:58:11 GMT
    Dear Ice Hunter

    The standard border size is 2" wide by 4" high.

    However the borders at the playing tables in Frankfurt will be exactly 7,6 cm high!

    Best regards
    Soren Lund
    LEGO League Deutschland


    1. Message by: NH-LIONS 10/31/2001 17:29:29 GMT
      ihr nachmacher!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wir sind die beseren lions
      P.S. Schreibt zur*ck


    2. Message by: The Rockys 11/23/2001 09:44:36 GMT
      7,5cm soll sie sein und ist si*!!!Ungef*hr!!


Discussion: Wir sind auch dabei (were there too) By: Die Gummib*renbande 11/09/2001 18:40:29 GMT
Hi Wir sind auch dabei!

Discussion: Wie kann man den RCX restlos l*schen??? By: SiemensLions 11/23/2001 09:37:50 GMT
PROBLEM wie oben, nur wie????

  1. Message by: Robot Kits 11/21/2001 17:30:47 GMT
    Wieso ist das ein Problem???
    Einfach die Programme *berschreiben.
    Standartm**ig sind die Pl*tze 1 bis 3 schreibgesch*tzt. Dies kann aber in den Einstellungen eingestellt werden.

    Wolfgang
    - Coach "Robot Kits" Oldenburg Norddeutschland


    1. Message by: The Rockys 11/23/2001 09:37:50 GMT
      Einfach die Firmware neu *bertragen oder Batterien rausnehmen!!!


Discussion: Wo kommt die Wippe hin? By: SiemensLions 01/09/2002 12:42:15 GMT
Wo steht die Mission Wippe bei euch? bzw nachher auf dem Feld?

  1. Message by: The Rockys 11/26/2001 15:21:05 GMT
    Seht auch das Bild an


    1. Message by: 11/26/2001 15:21:41 GMT
      Deleted


    2. Message by: NEWSENSE 7s 12/07/2001 18:33:30 GMT
      was sind die H*lle Sie auf ungef*hr Ihnen Idiot?


    3. Message by: NEWSENSE 7s 12/07/2001 18:36:21 GMT
      Gespr*ch Dont zu mir wie dem


    4. Message by: NEWSENSE 7s 12/07/2001 18:43:11 GMT
      ignorieren Sie diese letzte Meldung.
      new sense


    5. Message by: NEWSENSE 7s 12/07/2001 18:43:19 GMT
      Lassen Sie alle m*gliche GUT-Tips f*r uns erhalten


    6. Message by: Robosaints 01/09/2002 12:42:15 GMT
      hi


Discussion: hi By: NEWSENSE 7s 12/07/2001 18:51:25 GMT
hi


Folder: Girls and FLL 01/14/2002 23:00:11 GMT
For topics related to promoting interest among girls in FLL and robotics.

Discussion: Getting girls interested By: BOB 11/18/2001 13:56:17 GMT
Do any of you have a hard time getting girls on your FLL teams?

I can easily find 11 year old boys who want to do anything related to LEGO but finding girls is a different matter.

For 2 years in a row my daughter is the only girl on her FLL team. The major problem I've had seems to be the parents. When they hear anything with LEGO in it they immediately think of their boys, who love building, but don't consider their girls.

And at the competition we went to last year, there was quite a few Boy Scout teams. I did see some girls there on teams, but not nearly as many as there were all boy teams.

What's worked for you to get girls interested in FLL and robotics in general? At this age, most of the girls seem more interested in things like horses.

Looking for ideas for the future.

Our team is a good group of kids so we should have a good year. But it just seems too bad that more girls don't particpate.

thanks,

Susan

  1. Message by: icefragments 10/02/2001 16:17:07 GMT
    Hi Susan. I thought your name was BOB until I read to the bottom. I appreciate your interest in getting girls involved. My daughter has been the lone girl before and what we did was actively recruit girls through flyers to schools, specific calls to families etc. We basically made three positions for each gender and first filled them with our children and started asking who else might be interested. The boy half filled up right away. We specifically turned boys away and held those positions open until they filled (at the last minute). This is our third year coaching and it was like pulling teeth. Maybe if next years challenge had something to do with equestrian science? Pam in Virginia


    1. Message by: Corpus7 10/04/2001 20:18:37 GMT
      I am a father of 2 girls who are involved in the high school version. One was part of our FLL pilot team 4 years ago. From her experience we decided to create all girls teams where ever possible. At our Parish our CYO sponsors our FLL Robotics program. This year we have 6 teams with 2 teams of girls only (5th, 7th, 8th) and (4th). We also have a 5th grade team with 4 boys and 2 girls. But this is their second year together and their coach is a woman.

      My suggestion is keep plugging away do not treat the girls any different. The only problem is girls are not as aggressive and get pushed out by more agressive boys who do this to each other. So you must be aware of any kid taking over.

      Every few minutes we change jobs. Like if programming a new kid drives (types) every 10 minutes. No one is allowed to touch the keyboard while someone else is driving. For builders we have many tasks going on to give small groups enough work. We may have a part finder and a part builder.

      Good Luck

      Frank Larkin (pawl@aol.com)
      Lansdale, PA
      Corpus Christi CYO Robotics
      Lansdale Catholic High School Robotics
      Cyber-Crusaders #272


    2. Message by: Whirlwinds 10/15/2001 19:36:27 GMT
      This is our second year with FLL and for both years our teams are split 50/50. We coaches did not do this, that is how the numbers worked out. With the older ones now in 8th grade, I was worried about the girls, but they all came back. I think the success is to balance the team during the discussions, the building process and the programming process. Make them pair up and switch often so there is no domination. Make sure that all have a chance to speak up. We also have strong women coaches and I think that it helps with the balance. The boys treat the girls as equals and are encouraged to listen to their ideas. We also have on the older team a dominant girl who plays with the boys on the sports teams and they are very used to her being as good or better than they are. This has helped, I think, to keep the control in check. She will not be ignored and the others are also respected because they are used to respecting her. It will be interesting to see how this balance works as puberty continues. But for now, this team works very well together and I believe that they have seen that the teamwork effort pays off. Last year, they made it to the final 8 in the state tournament and that was with one girl and one boy in charge of the table at the competition. I will say that I don't remember that balance with other teams there. We will do that again this year with all combos rotating until we find the right balance. By also stressing team effort, I think that the group has made the right decisions in the past and will continue.

      Good luck with your efforts to encourage more female involvement. This program is so beneficial for a number of aspects that it brings, not just the obvious engineering ones.

      Whirlwinds at RJHS


    3. Message by: Mobots 10/17/2001 05:09:38 GMT
      With regards to girls in FLL, I have girls that are siblings ( not to each other but to boys in the group)in my team this year and they are all friends. They got interested in the research portion of the project. They are slowly getting interested in the programming etc. Because they are siblings to the boys in my group, there are obviously lots of dynamics going on, but I am looking forward to seeing how it all works out. I think FLL can attract girls with the overall packaging of the challenge and then once they are on board, they can see the design and progamming aspects are really not so intimidating. I too would like to see more of a balance.

      Linda, Mobots Mentor


    4. Message by: Mobots 10/26/2001 22:37:53 GMT
      hey guys. Listen, have any of you guys get gipped on your lego pieces? we don't have half of the pieces, so we can't finish the robot or any of the extra pieces, like the weather tower. What's up with the white circles? you only need 4 of them. If any of you guys know how to get the extra pieces faster than three weeks, please,please let us know.
      Thank you so much.MOBOTS


    5. Message by: Unibots 10/26/2001 22:57:47 GMT
      The white 2x2 round bricks are used as "loose snow" in the ice floe when it is on the field, similarly the blue technic stop bushes are used as "water" in the small hole on the ice floe. Check out the playing field setup instructions on the challenge web site.

      -Peter


    6. Message by: TBA 11/18/2001 13:56:17 GMT
      I think it's the girls chose if they want to do it most girls don't like legos


Discussion: Girls in FLL By: robogirls 01/14/2002 23:00:11 GMT
I would like to dispell the myth of getting girls interested in FLL. I am a Tech Ed teacher in Cranston, RI and I have at this time 4 teams of girls and I have to start turning them away. At the present time I have 35 girls involved and they are involved. It really is a wonderful thing to see. My goal is to interest girls in the fields of Math, Science, and Technology. It might work.
bye for now, Al

  1. Message by: Techno Strykers 10/12/2001 21:58:23 GMT
    We are girls and we like FLL.Our names are Hannah and Kristina. Come to our team page,we are the
    Techno Strykers. We enjoy building the robots out of legos because it is very fun , thanks and have a good day.,


    1. Message by: robogirls 10/13/2001 21:53:17 GMT
      hello! My name is Emily Dailey I am with the robo girls and I totally agree with you,I love doing this stuff I feel it will help me in the future. the disscusion page you wrote on was started by my Tech ed. teacher Mr. Hurst and belive me all the stuff he said was true. He is, now only taking selected students and is unfortunately forced to turn a bunch of girls away. I enjoyed reading your input on the subject and hope we will meet some time (The competition in December maybe?) Well good luck on the robot glad you enjoy building as much as I do. See ya!


      1. Message by: Arctic Angels 10/16/2001 00:56:24 GMT
        Hey! My name is Jenn and I've been in FLL for two years. This is the first year my school has gotten an all girls team. I hope to meet more girls at the competition in Mountain Home, AR on December 1st!
        --Jenn, Arctic Angels


    2. Message by: Archer Lego Girls 10/18/2001 01:04:13 GMT
      The Archer School for Girls has been fortunate to be able to integrate FLL into the 6th grade curriculum. We have 8 6th grade teams of 9 girls each, and 1 7th/8th grade team of about 15 girls. That's 87 girls involved at LEGO League at our school. What an amazing team building experience as well as work with science standards on problem solving, 3D model building... the possibilities for involvement in curriculum is endless. These girls are competitive, understanding of the science and technology behind the robots and so excited about coming to science class!!!

      Any questions?
      happy to help....
      Judey Petix
      6th science teacher
      The Archer School for Girls


    3. Message by: Supergirls 10/20/2001 20:50:29 GMT
      We are the Supergirls. This is our first year in the FLL competion. We are very excited to be competing.


      1. Message by: Blizzards 10/22/2001 21:47:27 GMT
        Hi,You Stink


      2. Message by: Supergirls 11/02/2001 00:44:00 GMT
        HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    4. Message by: Blizzards 10/22/2001 21:44:45 GMT
      Hi,Good Bye


    5. Message by: Unibots 10/23/2001 23:44:00 GMT
      Blizzards --

      Comments like "you stink" are not in keeping with the
      level of professionalism expected of an FLL team. The
      gif's are nice, but I fail to see their relevance to
      discussions of FLL...

      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    6. Message by: robogirls 10/25/2001 20:53:52 GMT
      hi,Iam with the robogirls and my name is Valeire Scott. This is my second year as a robogirl, but last year there was only ,five girlls involved andd we didnt do any competitions and we didnt get much accomplished. BUT this year we have four teams of about 10 girls each and we are all very intelligent. Well! good luch all and maybe we will see eachother one day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    7. Message by: NH-LIONS 10/31/2001 17:25:04 GMT
      gjff


    8. Message by: 11/02/2001 22:26:42 GMT
      Deleted


    9. Message by: arctic droidz 11/07/2001 18:31:23 GMT
      There's alot of girls on this team. One of the girls is our Team Leader. Another one is the Robot Director, and all the others are clerk journalists and programmers and builders


    10. Message by: Botcats 11/15/2001 01:35:38 GMT
      Girls should have a right to join the FLL just as much as the boys. GIRlS RULE THE WORLD!!!!


    11. Message by: cypherztorm 11/16/2001 18:56:08 GMT
      hey. I am one of cypherztorm... where 13 years old and live in trondheim, norway... if anyone want to chat youst say so=)


    12. Message by: Artic Storm Troopers 12/04/2001 21:56:52 GMT
      Hi we are the Artic Storm Troopers and we have 2 girls on our team and our program teacher is a woman too. we enjoy it very much and i think more girls should get into lego's. i never knew legos were so fun!


    13. Message by: Snow Angels 01/14/2002 23:00:11 GMT
      We are from an all girls school and we think we rock!!!!!



Folder: good luck 01/08/2002 16:10:05 GMT
good luck to everyone who is taking part in the compitition


Folder: How Do I Upload Pictures To Our Site? 01/15/2002 13:15:36 GMT
We're Trying To Upload Our Picture. How?

Discussion: scanning or digital camera By: LEGGY-EGGY 01/15/2002 13:15:36 GMT
u could scan pics in and paste to site or save digital pics

could u give me your web address??


Folder: International Contacts 10/30/2001 16:12:41 GMT
This folder is the place for you to post messages if you want contact with teams from other countries.


Folder: SaltCity, Germany 11/21/2001 02:33:39 GMT
We are a team of 10th. Graders at a "Hauptschule" in L*neburg in North Germany. We have called ourselves "SaltCity" because salt used to be extracted from a salt deposit under the medieval town of L*neburg. We would be pleased to hear from any other teams in Germany or anywhere else!

Discussion: Gruesse von dem Polarbots By: Polarbot 10/25/2001 15:06:53 GMT
SaltCity, wir wuenschen Ihr viel gluck. Wir sind Amerikaner, aber zwie unseren Kinder koennen sehr gut Deutsch sprechen
(Ihre Muttern kommen aus Baden Wuettenberg). Unser Manschaft hat 6 kinder von 9 bis 11 jahre alt. Ich bin "coach" und habe mal circa 5 jahre in Stuttgart gewohnt (obwohl meine Grammatik immer noch leidet). Wir sind relativ neue beim programmieren, aber bisher haben die kinder alles sehr gut gemacht.

Viel spass!

Mark of the The Polarbots.
Hillsboro, Oregon USA


  1. Message by: saltcity 10/25/2001 15:06:53 GMT
    Hallo Polarbot,

    vielen Dank f*r die guten W*nsche!
    Zur Zeit befinden wir uns in der Testphase 1.
    Die Sch*ler sind gerade dabei die Roboter zu programmieren.
    Gar nicht so einfach, aber eine sehr spannende Phase.

    We hope that you are successful and that you have lots of
    fun in the weeks ahead !!

    Regards
    Nigel Isle , Bettina Buss


Discussion: from North America By: RoboScorps 11/21/2001 02:33:39 GMT
We are a team from Hammond, Indiana in the U.S.Do u guys have any good tips? WE WILL BE GLAD TO SHARE OURS IF U WILL SHARE YOURS.

  1. Message by: TBA 11/21/2001 02:33:39 GMT
    ok



Folder: Marketing, fundraising and PR 11/07/2001 08:21:15 GMT
This folder is for discussions related to marketing, getting sponsorship, fundraising and PR for teams. Let's share our ideas for promoting FLL in our local communities.

Discussion: Community Service By: BOB 11/07/2001 08:21:15 GMT
What are some of the things that your teams are doing for Community Service?
Our team plans on participating in Operation Christmas Child. That's a program where you put school supplies and other small items into shoe boxes and they are sent to needy children.

What other community service projects are your teams doing?

  1. Message by: BOB 11/07/2001 08:21:15 GMT
    Well, we've finshed filling our shoeboxes for Operation Christmas Child. I have heard of some teams doing things like car washes for charity. With this time of year, and with the events of 9-11 there are many worthy charities out there.


Discussion: FLL Tshirts and products? By: BOB 10/02/2001 05:14:38 GMT
For the last 2 years FLL has offered FLL tshirts for sale but we haven't heard anything about tshirts for this year. Will there be t-shirts this year?

The kids loved the Volcanic Panic ones from last year.

Also in 1999, FLL had a patch you could buy. But they didn't offer one in 2000. Patches are nice if you are in Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts because they can be added to uniforms to show participation in activities.

Anyone heard if there will be products for the 2001 season?

thanks.

Discussion: Press Releases By: BOB 11/02/2001 16:00:29 GMT
Anyone have any good tips for writing press releases?

  1. Message by: NH-LIONS 11/02/2001 16:00:29 GMT
    wir sind die geborenen VERLIRER

    und ihr die geborenen GEWINNER


Discussion: Fundraising and Sponsorship By: BOB 10/12/2001 20:12:36 GMT
Post your fundraising and sponsorship ideas here.

Do you find it hard to find sponsorship since there are so many other organizations out there?
What has worked for you?
What has not worked?

  1. Message by: LCS Alpha 10/12/2001 20:12:36 GMT
    This is the third year that I've coached a FLL team - one year at a public school, two years at a private. After last season, I realized that fundraising and seeking sponsorship was taking too much time away from the season itself, which is so short. So last spring, our team ran a used book sale at our small (125 student) school. We asked for donations from the entire school, and were lucky enough to have a local library donate some books, also. We ran the book sale for the last three days of school, and donated the remaining books to another local library. Profit was $230, which helped our finances considerably, and is allowing us to concentrate on the Challenge this year, rather than money issues.


Discussion: Some Help Organizing By: Arctic Fire 09/28/2001 05:18:08 GMT
I scanned the parts pictures in the back of the Robotics Invention book and made them available to you.

You can download and print them on "Print and Stick" project paper (available at Walmart). This paper is coated with adhesive on one side. You can cut out the pictures (along with their quantities), peel them and stick them in your organizing trays so the kids know where to put the parts and how many there should be.

The pictures look much better printed out than on your monitor. Each set will fill a sheet of paper.

Here are the web addresses:

http://people.ne.mediaone.net/rossfree/parts1.jpg
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/rossfree/parts2.jpg
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/rossfree/parts3.jpg

Hope this helps you.

Ross

  1. Message by: Arctic Fire 09/28/2001 05:18:08 GMT
    A note to add to the one above...

    If you go to the three web links and just hit the print key, it will chop off some of the parts.

    Download the three pictures. Then use your local picture software (most everyone has some) to fit them to a page and print them out. If I get time to make them fit better I will.

    Ross



Folder: North America 01/15/2002 21:26:18 GMT



Folder: A Texas Tournament?? 12/09/2001 06:08:57 GMT
Hi! We're rookies, so we have no history about previous local/state tournaments in Texas.
We would be interested in knowing of one within a 100 miles of Houston.

Discussion: Houston teams By: BOB 11/21/2001 09:30:20 GMT
We plan on visiting other local teams. We were not thinking of having an official local tournament, just saying howdy to others and having fun. We know of two other local teams. It would be great if others wanted to get together.

LEGO is trying to set up a state tournament and it may be at !!! tada ! Space Center Houston. We drove to AK last year - 18 hours.

Gary

  1. Message by: BOB 10/02/2001 05:42:55 GMT
    For 1999 and 2000 there was no "official" FLL event for Texas.
    We recently heard that the school district down in Clear Lake, south of Houston had an unofficial challenge last year just with their schools.
    For our team we went to the Arkansas event. It was very well organized but a long drive for us.
    We were surprised when we registered the first time that Texas didn't have any official events, but recently there has been moves to change that.
    So we're hoping that comes together this year.
    There's FLL teams in Austin, Houston and DFW, so there's enough interest there.
    One thing unofficial our team did last year is Lego Mindstorms had Mall tour and we went and did a demo at a local shopping mall. The kids really enjoyed showing off their creations and talking about FLL and Lego Mindstorms.


    1. Message by: The Practitioners 10/09/2001 02:39:03 GMT
      Hello you two. We are a team based out of Mountain Home Arkansas, where the Arkansas tournament is held. The first year the team that won was from Texas. Houston I believe. Ther is absolutley no need for you to have to drive 18 hours. Try to get a place in Mountain Home, but it won't be easy, there are only 70 postitions available, and they fill quickly. Facilities are good, and setup is nice.

      Matthew McNelley,
      Website and Newsletter Coordinator
      Team Programmer
      The Practitioners


    2. Message by: Frost Attack 10/20/2001 21:56:38 GMT
      The NJ Pathfinders are interested in doing a few "demonstrations" after the first of the year with other local Houston teams. We are a rookie team, and moving pretty slow. Our team is 2/3 home schooled; 1/3 pubic schooled. We only are meeting once a week at this point.

      We figure it will take us until 12/14th (our last meeting this year) to finish the Challenge the way we envision.

      Since there is no local/state tournaments here in Greater Houston area, we would enjoy having opportunity to meet other teams and demonstrating our solutions.
      We are open to suggestions, comments, and interest.

      Russell Legion
      Team Frost Attack


    3. Message by: DarkPenguins 10/21/2001 03:04:14 GMT
      We are also a rookie team in Houston. We are interested in having a mini-tournament in Houston. I could be convinced to host it if very good support was there. How many teams are in the HOuston area?


    4. Message by: BOB 10/21/2001 21:58:26 GMT
      There's at least 3 homeschool FLL teams in the greater Houston area. There's 2 homeschool teams over in Austin.

      We've been told that many, many schools in the Houston area have FLL teams. In 1999, the first year we became involved with FLL, they had a list of team number and who was from where, at that time there were a couple of dozen FLL teams in the Houston area. I think there's quite a few out there.

      We did a Lego Mindstorms workshop earlier in the month for a group of homeschoolers and one of the kids who attended had done FLL with his Clear Lake School district last year.

      We would be very interested in a local event for Houston.

      Did you get the document from FLL that gave tips for local events? Even if there's something "unofficial" I think there's a lot of interest there.

      If you have the means to host it and get volunteers, I could help get the word out.

      We put our entry in for Arkansas, but even if we get in there, we would be more than willing to come to a mini-event for Houston.

      thanks,

      Susan


      1. Message by: DarkPenguins 10/24/2001 01:45:29 GMT
        Hi Susan,

        If you are interested in getting some teams together, please drop me a quick email and we can discuss

        Regards,

        Alan


    5. Message by: BOB 10/25/2001 06:13:06 GMT
      Ok, will do.

      thanks,

      Susan


    6. Message by: BOB 11/06/2001 08:48:55 GMT
      Well, our team did get accepted into Arkansas. So we'll be going there on Dec 1st. Glad we got in, it's a well-run event.

      However, we would also very much like to do something unofficial in Texas as well. So all you Texas teams, please do respond to DarkPenguins' request for feedback and let them know you are interested in doing something in Texas.


    7. Message by: Frostbyte 11/18/2001 06:25:25 GMT
      We're a homeschool team out of the Woodlands. We're also driving to Mountain Home. We'd be interested in something local as well. Let me know if you get anything arranged.


    8. Message by: BOB 11/19/2001 06:51:38 GMT
      When last I had heard from DarkPenguins, he said about 11 teams out of the 18 he contacted had expressed interest in doing something local in January. I think that's enough interest to justify doing something informal after these events in December finish.

      Finding a location is always a problem, but I think he had some ideas. Do any of you have contacts with places where an event could be held in January?

      I like the idea of a January event because the kids will still be excited and fresh from doing the challenge and still used to working together as a team.

      If teams bring their own mats and field elements, that would work if there was a facility that had tables we could use. (I'm not dragging my practice table around, it's too bulky to travel.)


    9. Message by: DarkPenguins 11/19/2001 17:39:03 GMT
      Hi there,

      The Dark Penguins will not be going to the tournament in Arkansas. We have to many other things going on during that time and our team isn't quite ready for a competition yet. Anyway, we are still looking forward and willing to help put on a Texas (houston area) tournament. I suggest we do this Saturday, January 19. Any thoughts on this date. We are working on getting a Gym from a local church and I also understand that a middle/junior high school in the Houston Area may do something similar which we can probably participate in. I have yet to get a hold of the person in charge of this activity. The Church Gym is pretty promising, but will cost some money (not sure how much).

      I'll send an email out to all texas teams soon to get some sort of read on how many teams would be interested, etc...

      alan


    10. Message by: Frostbyte 11/19/2001 20:43:18 GMT
      Hi Dark Penguins,
      January 19 looks good for us. We can bring our practice table, if necessary.
      Frostbyte


    11. Message by: BOB 11/21/2001 09:28:37 GMT
      Sorry you won't be going to Arkansas, but we do understand. It's a long drive and it takes a lot of time to get ready for an event.

      I think a lot of Texas teams would be interested. Just got a quick email from the Austin team and they would be willing to drive over to Houston in January for something.

      January 19th should work ok.

      if you find out more about that other possible event, please do let us know.


Discussion: January Texas Event By: BOB 12/09/2001 06:08:57 GMT
Tentative plans are in the works by Dark Penguin's team for doing something local to Houston on January 19th.

  1. Message by: BOB 12/02/2001 23:11:16 GMT
    We went to Arkansas and had a great time, our team BOB placed 3rd and won Robust Design.

    However, that's a long way to drive and many Texas teams did not go. (It took us 12 hours there and 13 back).

    If we can do something in Houston in January, this would be great. Would give many teams a chance to show what they have learned and to network with other Texas FLL teams.


    1. Message by: BOB 12/09/2001 06:08:57 GMT
      Latest proposed date is Saturday, January 26th in West Houston. Stay tuned for details.



Folder: Any Teams Within 150 mi of Eureka, California? 10/31/2001 08:39:21 GMT
We're a bit isolated here on the north coast of California. If your team is somewhat in the vicinity of Eureka (like Redding, Crescent City, Ukiah, etc.) and are interested in possibly getting together for an informal competition or just to compare notes, please post here or give me a call.

Thanks...John Galle, "Artic Dolphins" coach, 707-445-1202


Folder: California 10/30/2001 16:45:21 GMT



Folder: California North Bay Tournament 10/29/2001 17:30:38 GMT
I'm hosting a tournament in Richmond for teams in Marin, Contra Costa, Alameda, Solano, San Francisco counties and anyone else interested. Leave a message here to register or for more info.

Discussion: Tournament Announcement By: Dover 10/18/2001 23:47:22 GMT
De Anza High School in Richmond will host a tournament in December. The date will be announced after the official tournament dates are announced. If medals are available to me, there will be a $30 fee to cover that cost...otherwise there will be no charge.

Please let me know if you are interested. I'd like to know how many tables to order!

Good luck to all teams,

Eric Reed

  1. Message by: FairfaxDesign 09/26/2001 20:58:57 GMT
    Eric,

    We are a new team just forming in Marin. We're not sure what we're doing yet, but please keep in touch.

    -Melanie


    1. Message by: Blockheads 09/28/2001 06:50:20 GMT
      Dear Eric, My name is Jay Brady and I'm a teacher at Murphy Elementary just up the road at 4350 Valley View. We are starting a lego league team at Murphy and would like to meet with you and your team asap. School # 223-2781, home # 724-4906. We just received the new kit from Pitsco on Tuesday and want to move ahead right away. When can we meet with you or your group? We hope to hear from you soon. Thanks, Jay Brady


    2. Message by: RoboHawks 10/04/2001 20:41:09 GMT
      We are a brand new team here in Sonoma County, Austin Creek Elementary School. We may be interested in joining your competition if we could get more information.

      Allison


    3. Message by: RATS 10/12/2001 20:35:36 GMT
      Dear Eric:

      We are a newly formed team in San Francisco, from Creative Arts Charter School, and we'd love to participate!!

      Please keep us posted.

      - Silvano

      scolombano@mail.arc.nasa.gov


    4. Message by: RIVER SCHOOL 10/12/2001 22:10:37 GMT
      We would like info on your tournament. We still have not received our kit or mat, so the team is rather disappointed and discouraged. Its almost impossible to prepare for a tournament when you have no tools. So, it would be nice to get some good news from local teams.

      Jackie

      jackie.coleman@pai-ca.org


    5. Message by: FairfaxDesign 10/15/2001 18:15:39 GMT
      Eric, Would it be easier if we all brought our own tables? Do you need any help setting up? -Melanie FairfaxDesign


    6. Message by: FairfaxDesign 10/15/2001 18:28:23 GMT
      It would be fun to get together with other teams *before* the tournament. The kids could talk about ideas and get a sense of other teams working on the same project. Is anyone interested in getting together? We're still just starting to get ideas, so maybe in a few weeks? Eric, would it make sense to come to your site? -Melanie FairfaxDesign


    7. Message by: Dover 10/15/2001 20:58:28 GMT
      Hi all,

      There is a new discussion in this folder called 'tournament update'. Please check it out.

      Eric.


    8. Message by: Falconeers 10/17/2001 23:49:33 GMT
      Melanie,
      We are the Falconeers located in Marin and I have a team from Kent Middle School in Kentfield. Nice to know there is another team from Marin. I would like to get together with you even prior to Richmond. Email me at kurz@rosewoodstone.com
      We are getting a late start.
      Cheryl


    9. Message by: EEL1 10/18/2001 23:47:22 GMT
      We are tentatively planning two small tournaments in the
      South bay on Dec 15. These will be for only 10 to 12 teams each. The purpose is to serve the many San Lose teams that have no local competition and would have to meet at 6 am to get up to Richmond at 8!.

      Mike Schuh (Mt View/Los Altos) will host one
      venue, and the Encial School(Morgan Hill) will host the other. We plan to start at about 1pm and go to 5pm. Each team will have 4 to 5 runs. These tournaments will concentrate on running the robots and not on the other aspects of the Challenge. A small registration fee `$30 will be collected to
      defray the costs of snacks and awards.

      I would encourge teams South of Me to consider this opportunity.

      mschuh@mail.arc.nasa.gov
      afederman@mail.arc.nasa.gov


Discussion: Tournament Update By: Dover 10/19/2001 02:34:43 GMT
Hi Everybody,

Our tournament is tentatively planned for December 1st, 2001 in the De Anza High School Gym, Richmond, California. Registration and practice will begin at 8:00 AM, and the games will start at 10:00 AM.

I have been monitoring the other discussion, and have compiled a list of interested teams:

Adams Middle School *
Austin Creek
Creative Arts Charter School
Crespi Middle School *
Dover Elementary *
El Sobrante Elementary
Helms Middle School
Mira Vista Elementary School *
Murphy Elementary *
Richmond Area Home School *
River School
White Hill Middle School

Teams with an asterisk are confirmed. I can take 24 teams, so please confirm / sign up now.

There will be a $30 entry fee to cover the cost of medals. Teams who are mentored by De Anza, and teams volunteering to bring tournament or practice tables will not have to pay the fee. In the event that medals are not available, there will be no fee.

A couple of teams have mentioned that they have not received their mats or kits yet. If you are interested, you can come by De Anza on Tuesday or Friday afternoons, 3:30 - 5:00. We have about seven teams working in the library, and you can get a feel for the game. Also, we'll try to set up an informal tournament the week before December 1st.

Please contact me for more info,

Eric
ericreed@mrreed.com

  1. Message by: RATS 10/16/2001 09:04:41 GMT
    Eric:

    We (Creative Arts Charter School) have not received our kits either. We'll be glad to bring our table if feasible to do so (once we figure out how to build it so it's transportable), but we'll be glad to pay our entry fee in any case.

    How do I proceed to send you the fee?

    - Silvano

    s.colombano@ieee.org


    1. Message by: Unibots 10/17/2001 01:49:08 GMT
      This seems like a reasonable place to let people know,
      there is a mailing list: SouthBayFLL@yahoogroups.com that
      was used very effectively to communicate among SF Bay area
      team coaches last year. We're active on it again this year, but if you weren't participating last year you may
      not know about it. Feel free to subscribe by sending
      an e-mail to SouthBayFLL-subscribe@yahoogroups.com.

      Thanks,
      -Peter
      Coach of the Unibots and the Icebreakers


    2. Message by: Phoenix Force 10/17/2001 07:54:29 GMT
      Hello Mr. Reed,

      Would you consider taking a couple of teams from as far out as Sacramento County? We have two teams in Folsom, CA looking for a local tournament. We are considering our own small tournament, but would prefer attending one with more teams competing together, and yours looks great! We MAY be able to bring two tables with props, if we can haul them.

      Ken Buttle, the Phoenix Force and the Phoenix Monsters


    3. Message by: FairfaxDesign 10/19/2001 02:34:43 GMT
      If any of you are interested in a *state* tournament, FLL has added a Northern California state tournament. If you've registered for the Southern California state tournament, you can change your registration. *Also* you have to register with the Northern California group. If you are interested in the Northern California Tournament you can find registration application information at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NCaFLL/files/Event%20Coordination/ncafll.htm


Discussion: Tournament Web Site By: Dover 10/29/2001 17:30:38 GMT
There are seven or more spaces left in the North Bay tournament. Please check the website:

fll.deanzarobotics.com

to be sure you have registered and for more information.

Good luck to all!

Eric.

  1. Message by: Unibots 10/22/2001 19:43:47 GMT
    Hi Eric,

    I checked out the web site, but I don't see anything
    about the North Bay tournament. Where is it?

    Thanks,
    -Peter


    1. Message by: RoboHawks 10/23/2001 20:44:49 GMT
      Eric,
      I think we should be registered (Austin Creek Elementary School). However, when I went to the web page I got some Apache message copied below. Help! Are we registered or not?

      Apache message:

      Hey, it worked !
      The SSL/TLS-aware Apache webserver was
      successfully installed on this website.

      If you can see this page, then the people who own this website have just installed the Apache Web server software and the Apache
      Interface to OpenSSL (mod_ssl) successfully. They now have to add content to this directory and replace this placeholder page, or else
      point the server at their real content.

      ATTENTION!
      If you are seeing this page instead of the site you expected, please contact the administrator of the site involved. (Try
      sending mail to .) Although this site is running the Apache software it almost certainly has no other
      connection to the Apache Group, so please do not send mail about this site or its contents to the Apache authors. If you do,
      your message will be ignored.

      The Apache online documentation has been included with this distribution.
      Especially also read the mod_ssl User Manual carefully.

      Your are allowed to use the images below on your SSL-aware Apache Web server.
      Thanks for using Apache, mod_ssl and OpenSSL!


      1. Message by: Dover 10/24/2001 12:51:07 GMT
        Yes you are! If you are still having trouble accessing the web site, let me know.

        Eric.


        1. Message by: RoboHawks 10/25/2001 06:09:29 GMT
          Eric,
          We are still getting the apache page when we log onto your web site.
          Thanks for letting me know we are registered, but what other information
          do I need to get from the web page.
          Thanks for organizing the event!
          Allison
          RoboHawks


    2. Message by: FairfaxDesign 10/23/2001 22:49:49 GMT
      I had this same problem at first. You need to type in the address without using "www." Just http://fll.deanzarobotics.com


    3. Message by: RoboHawks 10/29/2001 17:30:38 GMT
      Thank you for the tip! It worked.



Folder: Florida 10/30/2001 16:46:22 GMT



Folder: florida tournament 11/20/2001 15:52:51 GMT
The Space Coast FIRST Robotics Team #233 will be hosting a tournament at Kiwanis Island in Brevard County. The tournament will be held on Saturday, December 1. The fee for the tournament will be $15 per team, payable at the door. We will also be providing lunch. There is a maximum of 15 teams, so reply soon.

To reply or ask questions contact either Marian Passmore at (321) 783-4810, or Ben Hanzl at bhanzl@yahoo.com


Folder: Wellington (West Palm Beach, FL) Local Tournament 11/13/2001 00:49:06 GMT
Hi!

Team 833, "The Big Green Gator Rescue Team" together with Pratt & Whitney Liquid Space Propulsion (rocket engines) will be hosting a local competition at the Welington Mall on December 1st.

We invite all Florida teams to register. There wil be a $35 per team fee to help cover the costs. Contact Dusty McGee at (561) 796-1595 or email at dusty@adelphia.net ASAP!! only 15 teams will be accepted. We have 4 teams registered now.

Discussion: Thunder Rumble FLL event in Tampa Florida By: boldgold 11/20/2001 15:53:55 GMT
FIRST Robotics team 147 (DEEP Thunder) is hosting the second annual Thunder Rumble FLL event December 8th, at the Tampa Museum of Science and Industry. No charge to attend but registration is limited to 20 teams. For more information or to register e-mail Bob Marchant at marchant@tampabay.rr.com or call (727) 542-6728.

Discussion: Upstate South Carolina Regional Meet By: bee bots 10/29/2001 17:42:12 GMT


  1. Message by: bee bots 10/17/2001 16:40:16 GMT
    We are attempting to set it up on Novermber 16 at York Technical College. I know this is short notice but I think we can pull it off. We need to hear from teams in North and South Carolina who would like to attend.


    1. Message by: East North Street Academy 10/18/2001 05:37:59 GMT
      I may be interested, but I'm not sure we'll be ready by then. I'm from Greenville, Keep me posted on this possibility. David Leeke -Arctic Adapters dleeke@worldnet.att.net


      1. Message by: bee bots 10/18/2001 13:14:06 GMT
        We are trying to set this up as a low pressure event. Most of the teams will be first year. We want our kids to get some experience before the state meet. York Tech. is offering their robotics department to help with the meet as well as problems the teams are encountering. Let me know any suggestions you may have. you can e-mail me at warnert@fort-mill.k12.sc.us


        1. Message by: East North Street Academy 10/20/2001 14:58:25 GMT
          Sounds good. We are still interested, I'm in contact with two additional teams for sure that may be interested. I think it may ease some tensions with this extra exposure to a tournament setting.
          Thanks, David Leeke- Arctic Adapters- Greenville, SC


        2. Message by: East North Street Academy 10/20/2001 16:13:43 GMT
          I've tied to email you twice at the above address and they both were returned. Please confirm the address. Thanks, David- Arctic Adapters


          1. Message by: bee bots 10/29/2001 17:42:12 GMT
            The tournament is on. Date is Nov. 16 at York Technical College in Rock Hill, SC. Contact me if you want to participate. warnert@fort-mill.k12.sc.us


    2. Message by: Rockin Rebels 10/20/2001 18:36:44 GMT
      Will you allow teams from other nearby states to attend?

      Thanks,
      Rebecca, Coach
      Rockin' Rebels
      Team #1118



Folder: Homeschool Teams 03/10/2002 17:37:18 GMT
Topics related to homeschool teams and using FLL as a educational resource.

Discussion: Finding other homeschool teams By: BOB 03/10/2002 17:37:18 GMT
We have a homeschool team in the Houston area. This year there are several other Texas homeschool teams that we know of.

I'm curious about how many other states have homeschool FLL teams. So if you have a homeschool team, please post here.

We started a robotics email list and have a website. Most of the people on our list are homeschoolers. But it's not limited to FLL folks, some are doing BEST robotics, which is for high schoolers and we hope some join who are doing FIRST robotics for high schoolers so we can find out more about how that one works.
Here's our website for robotics:
http://www.jsoft.com/archive/robotics/
Feel free to check it out.

thanks,

Susan

  1. Message by: Skuas 10/03/2001 19:20:28 GMT
    Hi Susan,

    We have two homeschool teams from our local network. This is our first year so.... We have one team of 3 girls and 5 boys and another team of 6 boys.

    Marie Hopper in NC


    1. Message by: fhelego (we are actually the Icebots) 10/03/2001 21:33:35 GMT
      We have a team in Knoxville, TN. As far as I know, we are the only home school team in our area and the only team in town. There is a town nearby with some private schools that have teams, but no home school teams. Our team is composed of 3 girls and 7 boys.

      Eric Manneschmidt
      Knoxville, TN


      1. Message by: Nashville Hailstorms 10/08/2001 18:15:37 GMT
        Nice to hear from you. We are a homeschool team in the Nashville area, also 3 girls and 7 boys in composition. I know there must be other homeschool teams out there.

        I have been pleasantly surprised at the kids' ability to work in a team. We've had very little trouble establishing roles and working cooperatively.


    2. Message by: RoboWhizards 10/05/2001 20:33:48 GMT
      We have at least two homeschool teams in the greater Philadelphia area (that I know of). We are both rookie teams. Our team has 10 boys (whew!) and the other team has 2 girls and six boys. There were actually quite a few homeschoolers around Philly who expressed interest in FLL and our team manager was trying to help them hook up, but I don't know if any of them ended up making the commitment.

      Dana Swieson, coach
      Broomall, PA


    3. Message by: A.R.C.T.I.C. 10/12/2001 22:59:33 GMT
      We are a home school team from Fredericksburg, Virginia. We have two girls and eight boys, ages ranging from 9 to 14. This is our first year. We have had a "slow" start because we have been meeting since August, and since we really didn't have much information on the competition itself, we have been working on teambuilding and lateral thinking exercises. Now that we finally have all of our stuff, though, we are rockin'! Nice to know there are other home school teams out there!


    4. Message by: HARC Hornets 10/13/2001 17:45:19 GMT
      Greetings,

      We are a homeschool team in Richmond, VA. We have a ten member team. We received enough interest to form a second team. Maybe we will next year. This is our first year. Things are underway. We are excited. Our FLL team is formed from members of our Robotics Club. This is a great experience.

      Coach Tracey
      HARC Hornets
      Richmond, VA


    5. Message by: BOB 10/15/2001 21:42:54 GMT
      Texas didn't get an event together for this year, so we threw our hat in the ring for Arkansas again. We'll see if we get in our not.

      For the Tenn teams, have you been able to get any info about local events? According to the FLL website, Tenn was one of the states that was having a regional event this time before their state event in Cookville.

      My folks live in that area and sent me pictures from the Oak Ridge and Knoxville newspapers from last year's FLL challenge.

      I don't know if we'll get in to Arkansas or not, but we've had fun doing the challenge. We're really thankful that they simplified the table. The mats are great. Last year it took us to the end of Oct to build our table, it was so complex.

      Last year our team had 8 - 1 girl, 7 boys, this year is has 6 - 1 girl, 5 boys.

      There would have been at least 2-3 more homeschool FLL teams in the Houston area if it didn't cost so much to register. Lots of interest in this activity. I predict many more teams for next year, provided that Texas can ever get an event together.


      1. Message by: ice phoenix 10/23/2001 19:29:42 GMT
        I'm *coaching* the Ice Phoenix team in Austin, Texas. As far as I know, we are the only homeschool team in Austin. We have 6 boys, 3 girls, ranging in age from 9 to 13.

        Susan and Gary in Houston got us interested ... and since we didn't end up moving to Houston, I had to organize my own team. We also put in for the Arkansas Tournament.

        It's our first year, and I'm feeling quite lost and confused! -- and reading as fast as my browser will let me!

        ~
        Julie


        1. Message by: Skuas 10/24/2001 03:33:13 GMT
          Julie,
          You're not alone! I go through periods of feeling like this is the coolest, most fun thing on the planet and moments of total confusion and feeling thoroughly overwhelmed. We finally received our materials Oct 19 and are very much a rookie team. The kids are loving it, though.
          Marie in NC


    6. Message by: Artic Kids 10/17/2001 15:59:29 GMT
      We are a homeschool team from Montrose, PA interested in other team in northest PA and Southern NY state.


    7. Message by: Scout Troopers 10/20/2001 00:45:31 GMT
      We are a homeschool team from Moorestown NJ. One girl and two boys with teen mentor make up our team. We went to Conn. last year and had a great time. We hope they will let us come back. Last year we watched the Lansdale PA event. This year we plan to participate.


    8. Message by: fhelego (we are actually the Icebots) 10/24/2001 19:16:36 GMT
      Bob,

      It is my understanding that the Cookeville tournament is the only tournament, there are no local level tournaments. I don't know if the winners go to another TN tournament or not, or how long after Cookeville it would be held. We are registered for the Cookeville tournament.

      Eric
      Coach of the ICEBOT


    9. Message by: BOB 10/25/2001 06:31:26 GMT
      I've explained the Julie that for us last year was much like standing on the edge of a cliff not knowing what was below. There's several Texas homeschool teams that have registered for Arkansas this year, we'll see if we all get in or not. We had hoped for something for Texas but it wasn't meant to be. I'm glad you threw your hat into the ring and hope we all get in there.

      Their event is very well run, we enjoyed it.

      Don't worry about feeling lost and confused, that's normal.

      This year because we've seen an event, we know more to expect. It's different for us also because on the average the kids on our team are older than who we had last year. So some are actually interested in programming. Last year everyone wanted to build.

      Regarding the TN events, my understanding is that Cookville is the state event. It has TN listed as one of the states that also had local events, but like the other states, no information was given. So I guess next week they are supposed to post what local events did happen.

      the message forums were one of the most helpful things for us, answered lots of questions.

      Susan
      Coach of BOB


    10. Message by: BOB 10/25/2001 07:26:35 GMT
      Eric,

      Regarding Tennessee, they have updated the "local" section for this website and there is a local event for you just down the road in Oak Ridge, but it's after the Cookville event. That information was not there last week.

      I find the notations about local/state events confusing. On the state page they put *** by the states that are supposed to have local events, implying that you would need to first go to a local event so couldn't just enter the state one. So for us out-of-staters, we crossed those states off the list of our possibilities. But then in reality, you have situations like this local event where it's after the challenge period and is more or less just an expo, not a regular competition.

      And the fact that they didn't update the local information until after the registration period ended for the state events makes it even more confusing for teams trying to decide where to put their registration into.

      Last year they gave us the option of putting in for first, second and third choice. Tenn was number 2 for us, we did get into Arkansas. Tenn still would have been drivable for us from Texas. anyway, this year since we just had one vote, we picked Arkansas. If all the in-states slots don't fill up, we may get in.

      Anyway, I'm going to also post this over to my robotics list, there's a homeschool team from Nashville that should still be on our list, but I haven't heard from her in awhile.
      Feel free to join the list, if you wish.
      http://www.jsoft.com/archive/robotics/

      State: Tennessee

      City: Oak Ridge

      Local Tournament or Event Description : 2001 FIRST Lego League
      Exhibition

      Date: Saturday February 16, 2002 (Snow date is Saturday March 2, 2002)

      Event Site Address including telephone number, contact name:

      American Museum of Science and Energy

      300 South Tulane Avenue

      865-576-3200 Lissa Clarke

      Contact Person: Bradley Weil, 865-574-7147, weilbs@ornl.gov

      Time: 9:00AM til 3:00PM

      Team Capacity: 10 Teams

      How To Register for the Local Tournament or Event: Contact Bradley
      Weil by phone or email before 8 February 2002.

      Team Notification Process: Team coaches will be notified by phone or
      email before 8 February 2002.


      1. Message by: fhelego (we are actually the Icebots) 10/31/2001 06:37:22 GMT
        Bob,

        I appreciate the info on the TN local tournament. I could tell you a long story about our getting into FIRST Lego League competition but the short of it was that we went to an exhibition such as you listed for February and decided to start a t