- Message by: Wave6109 10/15/2007 21:46:12 GMT
Hello? - Message by: Wave6109 10/15/2007 21:53:21 GMT
I'm just wondering about the wave turbine mission ... we need to learn how it works ... so we can explain it to our team. If anyone knows it would be great!:) - Message by: 922daredevils 10/15/2007 22:37:38 GMT
From what I've read - bring a model with at least 2 pieces on a hinge, swivel, etc. and move to ocean west of the light sandy beach area.
Mission: Bring your own team-designed Wave Turbine (one per team) and move it TO the ocean directly west of the sandy beach. Your Wave Turbine model must consist of at least two pieces that move independently of each other. A scoring Wave Turbine is worth 25 points. A meaningful design is worth your time, but not worth points, and won*t be judged.
Q: Can you please elaborate on "move independently of each other"?
A: One or more parts move in a way that one or more other parts do not, even though they're all connected as part of the same model. Examples: A hinge, a wheel barrow, a bureau, a key chain. Any model that changes shape when manipulated. Any model that's not a continuous, solid object. - Message by: crazycreators252 10/16/2007 03:31:21 GMT
In our research we have found a couple wave turbines. one looks just like an underwater wind mill. the curent in the ocean moves the blades and a generaator makes the electicity just like a wind mill only underwater. The other one looks like 2 long tubes floating on the top of the water. the waves make the tube move up and down. in the middle of the two tubes is a pump that pushes the water through a generator like a dam would push water thru a generator.
Good luck
Travis - Message by: Pi6656 10/16/2007 04:00:20 GMT
Well its just a creation youve made that you push out to the ocean next to the sandy beach to score some extra points!=-) - Message by: Wave6109 10/16/2007 21:46:01 GMT
Since we just have to build something that can be moved around easily and the desgin doesn't get judged this should be easy.. thanks! - Message by: solarsons1733 11/26/2007 21:20:59 GMT
Are we allowed to use the robot as our wave turbine? - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/27/2007 15:24:05 GMT
Yes. That is covered in QA61.
- Gary
Ok so I've been wondering if a mini motor counts as one of the 3 motors each robot is aloud because it is kinda small and useless!
- Message by: 922daredevils 10/15/2007 22:33:19 GMT
if it's electrical it counts - Message by: Pi6656 10/16/2007 03:58:33 GMT
Dang that's really anoying.......=-( Anyway thanks -.- - Message by: solarsons1733 10/23/2007 01:17:16 GMT
If you have more than three motors, but you are only using 3 ports, is that okay? If it isn't, can we bring a lego battery pack and have the robot operate that? - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/23/2007 09:22:58 GMT
Hi Dale,
2 short answers:
#1 NO
#2 NO
electric components are limited in the rules,
Rule 7 to be more precise.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
If anyone has any helpful hints it would be greatly apreciated. Also We need to chose a problem that we can solve so if anyone has any idea's on that we would be very thankful!
- Message by: 922daredevils 10/17/2007 23:40:48 GMT
The United States forum has lots of explanations about the missions. If you still don't understand a mission I'd be happy to try to explain it but most people don't throw out random hints.
What do you mean by "we need to choose a problem?" Have you read the missions? The idea is to complete as many missions as possible in 2 and a half minutes. You also need to present your robot, your programs and your project. - Message by: crazycreators252 10/18/2007 02:05:28 GMT
I think he is talking about the Project. In past projects you had to choose a problem and then propose a solution. This year is different. The problem is stated for us in the project introduction:
"This year*s Power Puzzle challenge is about understanding the elements of energy use in a world that uses more and more energy every day. As our world grows and changes, so do our energy needs."
The teams need to propose solutions to the global energy problem. The people of the world need to use less non renewable energy resources and use more renewable energy resources. The solution needs to be about using less energy and/or propose new undiscovered energy sources to fill the ever increasing demands.
I hope this helps,
Dave
Team 252 - Message by: ControlAltDelete6157 10/24/2007 19:23:10 GMT
Are you sure? If you are what problem do you think we should do.
Thank You
Yasyf
Control-Alt-Delete - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/24/2007 20:25:49 GMT
For me in general it is like this; when I need to ControlAltDelete, I have more then enough problems...
Is that the problem to your answer, you were looking for ??
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
if anyone was wondering the puzzle pieces on the playing mat spell out a secret message. When our team first found out, we went on this really neat website that has all the puzzle pieces on it, then cut them out an put it together. It really helped our team out, even though we knew it was something we already are doing, it increases our preformance when we help each other out of sticky situations.
- Message by: icNRG 2340 10/19/2007 13:08:47 GMT
The website mentioned by the MarltonMustangs can only be this one:
http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/Lego2007/Resources/resourcesPuzzle.html (take this link for the puzzle pieces)
Take a look at the website and get an idea of the awesome work of Marco Ciavolino..
Go to the homepage of Techbrick:
http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/TechBrick/index.html
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: NOBLE 11/10/2007 01:09:13 GMT
Unfortunately, when my team went to put the puzzle together, we used the worksheets, and we noticed that one piece is missing, and replaced by a similar piece that is already used in the puzzle, rendering the puzzle impossible to complete. - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/10/2007 20:48:40 GMT
Firsthand,
I Know several teams that succeeded in performing this rathet simple but time consuming thing.
Do not complain, have fun and a good tinme and witness the team grow in aptitude & attitude as I will for sure.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Does anyone know any websites about solar power?
- Message by: icNRG 2340 10/23/2007 09:20:23 GMT
Great question Stephen!
My answer is YES.
but perhaps you were looking for adresses, if so try this page you'll find lots of interesting links there.
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=29640
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: Wave6109 10/29/2007 21:44:39 GMT
Thanks... - Message by: Wave6109 11/08/2007 22:59:12 GMT
Does anyone know any really good websites on solar energy explains it in Grade 8 language but more like Grade 2 language... lol
thanks...
Does anyone know what the height regulation is for the robot while in the base?
- Message by: crazycreators252 10/24/2007 23:39:14 GMT
See Rules #10
When getting the oil barrels from the oil platform, are we allowed to cut through the parking lot to get there, if there are no objects in the parking lot?
Thanks
- Message by: crazycreators252 10/30/2007 03:14:09 GMT
QA3 should answer your question.
Bonjour,
Nous sommes l'*quipe des Robot SAPiens de Montr*al. C'est notre deuxi*me ann*e de participation. Est-ce qu'il y a d'autres *quipes au Qu*bec ?
Hi,
We are the Robot SAPiens, a French speaking team based in Montreal. It's our second year in the competition! Is there any other team in Quebec province ?
Merci!
Robot SAPiens
With respect to the presentation, do all 10 members of the team have to be involved?
- Message by: zap4702 11/05/2007 20:46:37 GMT
One of the things the judges look for is whether the entire team has participated in the research project. So I think it's better if you do have all team members involved in the presentation, and if you cannot do that, then they should be able to demonstrate their knowledge and participation in some other way (by being ready to answer some of the judges questions, for example).
Doreen, Coach
Team ZAP!
If you take the 2 wind turbines and stick them on the 2 ends of the dam, is it illegal?
- Message by: icNRG 2340 11/07/2007 22:34:21 GMT
Hi Stephen,
Short answer, YES that is illegal!
Here you can read is why ,RTFR!
RULE 14. Scoring Objects Scoring objects are objects that could be worth points depending on their location. To score, each scoring object must itself meet the mission requirements for points, no matter where the robot or any strategic objects is. You are not allowed to bundle, connect, or attach scoring objects to each other, but placing them in a strategic container is allowed.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Are we allowed to push the coal mining cart from base by hand?
- Message by: solarsons1733 11/22/2007 18:52:52 GMT
Are we allowed to push the coal minig cart by hand from the base? - Message by: zap4702 11/22/2007 18:56:03 GMT
No, unless the mission tells you otherwise, only the robot can move any of the objects in order to score.
The only time you can move the coal cart by hand is after it has rolled down the ramp - then you pick it up with your hands to move it into base.
Doreen - Message by: crazycreators252 11/23/2007 06:58:22 GMT
You can move the coal car to the base from the tracks after it has rolled down and contacted the bumper. You have to do this to get the coal out for the power plant mission. Once in base it can be moved by hand following the housekeeping rules: it can be moved by hand to the parking lot, or a box or table or cart you bring to the table. We asked the referee at our tournament last week if we could store it in the white area behind the tracks, "Near Base", and it was allowed.
Hope this helps,
Dave
For team T-shirts are we allowed to have a corporate sponsor so we do not have to pay for them ourselves? Please respond asap if you know for sure...
- Message by: crazycreators252 11/23/2007 06:42:34 GMT
If you can get a sponsor to provide them - great.
We have done fundraisers to get the money to buy them. We have had the parents pitch in as well. It up to the coach and team how you get your t-shirts.
Hope this helps,
Dave - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/23/2007 15:36:44 GMT
Be sure to thank any sponsors profusely. Keep them apprised of your team's progress, and invite them to events. There have been teams in FRC that ignored major sponsors, taking them for granted. Some have lost sponsorship that way.
- Gary
Sault Ste Marie, Ontario, had the regional competetion today and it was GREAT!!!
Two teams are advancing to Toronto in two weeks time! Good Luck to Grandview and Anna McRea Schools!
Display posters are a great idea. Flyers with your Team information/ideas, buttons, candies or whatever you want as a "party favour" (one Teams gave out a baggie with a puzzle)are good ideas. A mascot of any kind of robot (Furbee, Robo Rapter, toy dog) brings fun and inspiration to your Team. Have a picture of your Robot for the Judges with your attachments...it might help them remember you after seeing so many other Teams. Bring water for your Team in a cooler. Bring rulers, markers and construction paper to make flags with your Team name first thing in the morning to get the gitters out. Empty water bottles with pennies in it, are good noise makers at the Rallies. Make a cheer or two!
This was our school's first time in the FLL and we wish you all a great time! What a super great day it was today!
From, Low Tech Girl in the Soo
Are we allowed to take a tool and drive over to the oil drilling and destroy it, taking the oil barrels with us? Or do we have to hit the thing to make the oil barrels fall? Thanks.
- Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 11/27/2007 10:06:51 GMT
I think intentional field damage of a mission model would be frowned on. Particularly since this one does give up it's oil barrels rather willingly. I'm not going to spend time reading all the rules (again) for the answer, but I bet it is in there somewhere. - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/27/2007 15:25:31 GMT
Rule 27, Field Damage:
> The robot is not allowed to break mission models ...
- Gary
We've already been to the Fraser Valley Tournament (Nov 24) and I know the Vancouver Island Tournament was last weekend as well.
Good luck to the Vancouver teams, whose tournament is this Saturday!
If you have a team in BC, and you check the forum, post here and say HI! We are the NXT Ninjas, from Beach Grove Elementary. I don't think we made it to the Provincials -- boy were the kids ever excited and motivated after the tournament! We had our best meeting ever on Tuesday (too late, of course). Too bad it's all over now, but we had fun.
- Message by: powerstormers 12/04/2007 19:55:03 GMT
Hi Beach Grove Robotics:
I coach the Power Stormers from Victoria. We had fun at the tournament and are looking forward to the Provincial tournament in January.
I wish there was more info shared between the BC tournaments. How did your team do? How did the other teams do?
We saw one team that 'catapulted' their wave tourbine into the ocean. It wasn't all that reliable, but we loved watching it! - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/05/2007 19:07:19 GMT
We did better than last year, but 140 points didn't go far in our tournament. The top team was (I think) Buildbots with 365. There were only 10 teams at our tournament. How many did you have? - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/10/2007 19:23:18 GMT
Powerstormers-- I haven't seen any results or press releases from any of the tournaments. How did you know you got selected for the Provincials?
One of our parents passed on one small item he found at the SFU website.
http://www.sfu.ca/sfunews/Stories/sfunews112907018.shtml
-- Nora - Message by: powerstormers 12/26/2007 22:05:20 GMT
We received an email invite from Faith. They were sent out around Dec. 3-5. I'm not sure of the exact date.
I know another team from the Victoria Tournament who contacted me a week later and asked about the invites too. They hadn't heard either way. Maybe Faith could post a list of invited teams to the BC website so that everyone could check.
Power Stormers won the Technical category, which is probably how they earned their invite.
Our robot should have performed better. The best score was 185 (with a -40 penalty). I think the top score at the tournament was around 250.
The kids are still working and could end up with a score over 300 by the provincial tournament. They have missions for everything, but need to shave some time off to get everything done in 2.5 minutes.
Hello everybody,
Team Watt is a dutch team that has been developing a modular robotdesign which allows very short rebuild times in between missions for the last 2 years, called MOT.
Since we get more and more questions from teams how to build this, we have added some instructions (in English) to our website, which is mainly in dutch. http://www.freewebs.com/wattateam/mottechniek.htm
We invite everybody to share and try this design, because it is really fast.
Good luck with all the tournaments still comming up, our next game is Beneluxfinals in Enschede, Netherlands.
Greetz
Watt a team!
How has your team responded to the 2008 Challenge announcement?
Is it allowed if you use the red oil barrel for the Corn Harvesting prerequisite of one oil barrel in the farm?
- Message by: icNRG 2340 01/08/2008 09:08:25 GMT
Hi Stephen,
The color does not matter, so pick the color you like best.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Folder: CHILE 09/28/2007 08:33:29 GMT
Discussion: Welcome By: LEGO1 09/28/2007 08:33:29 GMT
Welcome to the FLL Forum * hopefully you will all have a great FLL pilot season in Chile. I'm looking forward to hear more about your experiences with FLL as a team, as a coach, from your tournaments, or what ever you would like to share with other FLL forum members.
Best regards
Gerhard Bjerrum-Andersen
Product/project Manager,
FIRST LEGO League (FLL),
LEGO Education
Denmark
Folder: DEUTSCHLAND 12/19/2007 17:34:31 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:07:14 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
Kann man Zusatzteile mit Motor in der Base austauschen, so dass man mehr als drei Motoren nutzt, aber stets nur drei auf dem Spielfeld am Roboter dran sind?
- Message by: B*rde-Robots1232 09/18/2007 21:47:03 GMT
Anzahl der Motoren
B*rde-Robots1232 - 09:46pm Sep 18, 2007
Kann man Zusatzteile mit Motor in der Base austauschen, so dass man mehr als drei Motoren nutzt, aber stets nur drei auf dem Spielfeld am Roboter dran sind? - Message by: Robonatler 09/19/2007 17:52:33 GMT
Nein, beachte die Regeln! Es z*hlen die Teile die mit ans Feld gebracht werden nicht die, die am Roboter angebaut sind, wenn der Roboter aus der Base f*hrt!
Wenn ich den Truck mit den *lf*ssern auf die Farm gebracht habe, ist dann gleichzeitig die Aufgabe erf*llt ein *lfass auf die Farm gebracht zu haben?
- Message by: B*rde-Robots1232 09/18/2007 21:49:40 GMT
*lfass auf der Farm
B*rde-Robots1232 - 09:49pm Sep 18, 2007
Wenn ich den Truck mit den *lf*ssern auf die Farm gebracht habe, ist dann gleichzeitig die Aufgabe erf*llt ein *lfass auf die Farm gebracht zu haben? - Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 09/20/2007 08:41:53 GMT
Ja, das gilt. Schaut bei "Fragen und Antworten" nach Punkt 41. - Message by: TrobTeam1236 09/20/2007 16:29:58 GMT
Darf der Roboter ber*hrt werden, wenn er gleichzeitig auf dem Parkplatz und der Base ist - Message by: LegoMetrix1152 09/29/2007 19:02:46 GMT
Ja, sobald ein Teil des Roboters in der Base ist, darfst du ihn mit der Hand in die Base nehmen.
Darf der Roboter ber*hrt werden, wenn er gleichzeitig auf dem Parkplatz und der Base ist?
- Message by: java-robotik 09/21/2007 05:09:41 GMT
Der Roboter darf ber*hrt werden, wenn er den die Basis auch nur ankratzt. So war es jedenfalls bisher...
Mich w*rde interessieren, ob die schwarze Linie zur Basis dazugeh*rt. Bisher war auch das so, aber dieses Mal sind die so breit, dass ich ins Gr*beln gekommen bin... - Message by: AuP Junior 09/21/2007 17:29:48 GMT
Die schwarze Linie geh*rt nicht (!!) zur Base. Zur Base geh*rt nur der wei*e Bereich.
Einige Antworten zu ein paar Fragen findet ihr auch hier:
http://www.hands-on-technology.de/firstlegoleague/fllpp/questions#51
gr**e,
markus - Message by: 10/01/2007 16:30:48 GMT
Deleted - Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/05/2007 13:23:20 GMT
Ja, aber nur wenn er mit einem Teil auf der weissen Fl*che der Base ist.
In den Regeln steht, da* ich nur Software verwenden kann, die den
Mindstormspackungen beiliegt. Wie ist das mit Robolab? In den letzten Jahren durfte ich das verwenden. Jetzt nicht mehr?
- Message by: Sapplaus!1224 09/22/2007 10:27:56 GMT
Ich glaube nur wenn du einen RCX verwendest. - Message by: AuP Junior 09/22/2007 11:09:57 GMT
Soweit ich wei* ist jede Version von Robolab (also auch Robolab 2.9 f*r NXT) erlaubt. Dies steht aber auch auf der Hands On Technology / FIRST LEGO League Seite. - Message by: vhsrobots1069 09/23/2007 15:39:05 GMT
Danke f*r die Antworten. Auf der HOT-Seite unter Fragen & Antworten habe ich es jetzt als Antwort 33 gefunden.
Darf das Wasser des Staudammes die Br*cken ber*hren ?
- Message by: power-bucks 09/23/2007 21:35:21 GMT
In der Aufgabenbeschreibung steht, dass der Damm *stlich der Base positioniert wird.
Wird unter ber*cksichtigung dieser Pr*misse bei anlegen des Hochwassers (wird immer richtung Osten angelegt) eine Br*cke vom Hochwasser ber*hrt, ber*hrt dieses auf jeden Fall immer ein Haus! Insofern gibt es hier immer Abz*ge!
Kann mir jemand sagen, wie viele Teammitglieder die P*sentation der Forschungsergebnisse vortragen k*nnen / d*rfen / m*ssen ?????
- Message by: adelhitec1212 09/25/2007 11:45:01 GMT
ich glaube, dass kann man sich selber aussuchen. Es kann theoretisch nur einer die Forschungspr*sentation vortragen, aber man kann auch das ganze Team einbinden. - Message by: robonnix1051 09/26/2007 14:28:16 GMT
jeder darf teilnehmen aus dem team! wie schon geasagt wurde es kann teoretisch alle teilnehmen oder nur einer!
das bleibt dem team selbst *berlassen! - Message by: power-bucks 10/13/2007 16:08:42 GMT
Ja..Aber wie viele Leute d*rfen es maximal sein, die den Vortrag halten??? - Message by: robonnix1051 10/16/2007 18:06:29 GMT
Naj, ich denke es macht einen guten Eindruck, wenn alle dabei sind. Einige sind vielleicht aktiver als die anderen, das kann schon sein. - Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 10/19/2007 11:12:17 GMT
Es sollten m*glichst alle dabei sein, wenn man einen guten Eindruck machen m*chte!
Viel Spa* bei der FLL
RoboSAPiens - Message by: LEGOCreators 11/15/2007 14:17:35 GMT
Es d*rfen maximal 10 Leute vortragen!!!
Denn es d*rfen maximal 10 Leute an der FLL teilnehmen.
Es d*rfen aber KEINE Coaches bei dem Vortrag mitwirken!!
Darf der Roboter sich nur auf den Stra*en bewegen oder am ganzen Spielfeld, also auch *ber die Fl*sse?
- Message by: robonnix1051 09/26/2007 14:29:25 GMT
der kan *beral hn auch *br fl*sse und h*uder fahren! - Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/03/2007 17:20:23 GMT
Da hat wohl jemand zu schnell geschrieben!
Darf der Roboter sobald ein Teil von ihm in der Base angekommen ist, neu ausgerichtet werden , f*r die n*chste Aufgabe?
Macht es Sinn eine Startschablone anzufertigen, ist das erlaubt?
- Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/01/2007 16:27:19 GMT
Sobald ein Teil des Roboter in der weissen Fl*che der Base ist darf er ber*hrt und neu ausgerichtet werden.
Wenn ihr mit dem Auge unsicher seit, macht es das. Sie darf jedoch nur aus Lego bestehen und darf nicht *ber die weisse Fl*che der Base hinausragen. - Message by: power-bucks 10/03/2007 09:42:23 GMT
Weiterhin solltest du dir die Regeln 19. Start-Methode, 20. *bergangsmodus und 21. Autonomer Betrieb durchlesen.
Hieraus geht hervor, dass Schablonen sicherlich erlaubt sind, jedoch w*hrend des Starts (sobald der Roboter beginnt die Base zu verlassen) keine Kontakt mehr zum Roboter haben d*rfen. - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/05/2007 05:34:17 GMT
Beobachten Sie auch Regeln 7 (Material).
Schablone must complett angfertigt sein von LEGO etc
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Ist es erlaubt zu Beginn des "Spiels" den Damm so in der Base zu platzieren, dass nur ein kleines St**ck des Dammes noch die wei**e Basefl**che ber**hrt, der Rest des Dammes au**erhalb steht?
- Message by: 10/01/2007 16:19:56 GMT
Deleted - Message by: 10/01/2007 16:22:51 GMT
Deleted - Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/06/2007 18:34:26 GMT
Nein es darf nichts *ber die weisse Fl*che der Base hinaus ragen.
Was hei**t genau **stlich der Base? Muss der Damm komplett "grafisch gesehen" rechts der Base stehen, oder darf ein Teil des Dammes auch n**rdlich oder auch n**rdlich-**stlich platziert werden?
- Message by: Ursulaner1050 10/01/2007 16:43:45 GMT
Der Damm muss meiner Ansicht nach "*stlich der Base", somit *stlich von der *stlichen Base-Begrenzung stehen. - Message by: LEGOCreators 11/15/2007 14:21:45 GMT
Nat*rlich ist es auch erlaubt den damm nach norden zu scheiben sonst k*nnte man die aufgabe nicht nach den regeln l*sen, da es sonsst probleme mit dem Wasser und Coalcar geben w*rde
Hallo leute.... mich w*rde interessieren, wie ihr den Antrieb eures Roboters realisiert habt. Ich habe es einmal mit dem Lego-Differential probiert; der Erfolg hielt sich aber in Grenzen ;)
Insofern nutzen wir weiterhin zwei Motoren, und haben somit einen f*r die bewegung der verschiedenen Anbauteile *brig. Nun w*rde mich mal interessieren, ob jemand das Differential zum Laufen gekriegt hat oder wie ihr es habdhabt.
PS: F*r alle, die nicht wissen, was ein Differential ist: Ein Differential erlaubt es dem Roboter, mit nur einem Motor sowohl vorw*rts zu fahren, als auch (wenn der Motor die Richtung *ndert) ein Rad zu blockieren und das andere r*ckw*rts laufen zu lassen. Die Bauanleitung findet ihr in der Lego-Constructopedia auf den Seiten 102-105 (Titel: "Streng Geheim")
MfG
Die Ursulaner aus Osnabr*ck
- Message by: godsofrobots1126 11/01/2007 08:40:19 GMT
Wir fahren mit einem Differential. Die Lenkung muss dann jedoch sehr genau sein.
Viele Gr**e
Gods of Robots - Message by: godsofrobots1126 11/14/2007 15:07:00 GMT
Wir haben unseren Wettbewerb mit dem 2ten Platz abgeschlo*en und haben nun Bilder im Internet ver*ffentlicht.
www.godsofrobots.de
hallo !!
wollte Fragen ob das normal ist das bei der Kohlenabbau Aufgabe die schwarzen oder roten Steine Rausfallen?
Darf man diese vor dem Wettbewerb noch richten ??
lg Die Alt.en
- Message by: power-bucks 10/06/2007 10:49:13 GMT
Normalerweise fallen keine Steine aus der Loge. Bei uns zumindest nicht...Ist sie bei euch waagerecht ausgerichtet, oder ist sie etwas schief??? - Message by: DieAlt.En1253 10/06/2007 13:36:35 GMT
Hallo !!
Danke f*r eure Antwort!!
mit freundlichen Gr**en
Die Alt.en - Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/06/2007 18:30:49 GMT
Damit es Folgen f*r die Punktbewertung gibt m*ssten mindestens 11 schwarze Kohlest*cke rausfallen. Rote k*nnen theoretisch alle rausfallen.(F*r das Kraftwerk braucht es nur zehn Kohlest*cke und die roten darf man gar nicht dorthin bringen).
Also uns sind nie mehr als zehn schwarze Kohlest*cke herausgefallen. Ich glaube da m*sst ihr euch nicht zu grosse sorgen machen. - Message by: DieAlt.En1253 10/07/2007 19:49:10 GMT
hallo !!
danke f*r eure Antwort !!
mit freundlichen gr**en Die Alt.en - Message by: LEGOCreators 11/15/2007 14:25:41 GMT
Aber denkt dran
der Wagen muss den unteren Prellbock ber*hren !!!
Ist es erlaubt einige Bausteine auf die Grundplatte mit den Strommasten zu montieren?
- Message by: icNRG 2340 10/05/2007 22:02:14 GMT
Nein, sehe Regeln 27
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Was ist damit gemeint???:
"Nutzt die von FLL zur Verf*gung gestellten Hilfsmittel und den Ratgeber als Anleitung und Musterbeispiel zur Durchf*hrung einer Energiepr*fung."
(so die Aufgabenstellung Teil 1)
Welcher Ratgeber welche Hilfsmittel???
- Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 10/19/2007 10:58:02 GMT
Es gibt kein Musterbeispiel. Es gibt nur Hinweise und Links im Bereich Glossar und Aufgabenhintergr*nde.
Viel Spa*
RoboSAPiens
Hallo !!
Wollte Fragen ob man einen stragetischen Beh*lter aud die Stromleitung draufstellen darf und ihn dann mit der Stromleitung ins Kraftwerk bringen darf und es z*hlt wenn die Stromleitung und der Beh*lter direkten Kontakt zum Kraftwerk hat ??
freundliche gr**e Die Alt.en
- Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/07/2007 20:30:10 GMT
Ja, die Punkte f*r die Stromleitung und f*r den strategischen Beh*lter(inhalt) werden gewertet.
P.S kleiner Schreibfehler: "aud" statt "auf". - Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 10/19/2007 11:10:58 GMT
Die Frage ist, ob diese beiden Objekte mit einander direkt verbunden sind!
Viele Gr**e
RoboSAPiens
PS:
Was ist eigentlich "stragetisch"?
Ich w*rde "strategisch" schreiben!
Viel Spa* bei der FLL
RoboSAPiens
hallo
wollte fragen ob ma vor den damm einen strategischen beh*lter mit dem roten oder weisen *lfass setzten darf und dann den damm hin*ber bringen darf also dass dann der beh*lter mit dem fass auf der flussh*lfte der farm ist.
also wenn dann die juri die flut setzt ob es dann z*hlt wenn das *lfass im weg ist oder ob es sogar 40 abzugspunkte gibt!
mit freudlichen gr**en Die ALt.en
Ps: danke jetzt schon f*r antworten !!
- Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/12/2007 21:35:30 GMT
In der Aufgabenstellung steht nur, dass der Damm und die Flut keine H*user ber*hren d*rfen. Von strategischen Beh*ltern ist nirgendwo die Rede. Deshalb glaube ich nach Regel 23(Erlaubte Handlungen) das dies durchaus m*glich ist. - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/12/2007 23:32:04 GMT
Ist nach meine meinung 100% ok. Jury braucht die Flut nicht zu plazieren, kann auch projektieren.
(verzeihung; mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut)
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: DieAlt.En1253 10/13/2007 16:30:09 GMT
hallo !!!
danke euch f*r eure Antworten!!!!
mit freundlichen Gr**en die Alt.en
Steinigt uns, wir finden es nicht, obwohl es doch ganz einfach gehen muss: Wie kriegen wir mehr als ein einziges Programm auf den NXT?
- Message by: AuP Junior 10/11/2007 20:25:43 GMT
Ihr m*sst die Programme richtig bennen, sonst hei*en alle nur "rbl". Dies macht ihr mit der NXT-Ampel, die sich bei den Symbolen unter dem NXT-Baustein befindet. Dort kann man die Namen in dem Rosa-K*stchen *ndern...
Gr**e,
Markus
www.team-wbg.de.vu - Message by: robonnix1051 10/16/2007 18:04:03 GMT
Danke danke. Schwer zu finden! Robolab 2.9 ist wirklich m*chtig - aber leider schlecht dokumentiert! Der Trick ist also, dass man nicht die normale RCX-Gr*n Ampel nimmt, sondern die spezielle NXT-Ampel. Diese erm*glicht dann die Namensgebung! Habt ihr das alle schon gewusst? Gibt es so wenige Robolab 2.9 Programmierer? - Message by: AuP Junior 10/18/2007 19:40:00 GMT
also wir haben das sp*testens dann rausgefunden, als es mir der normalen Ampel nicht geklappt hat. Generell gilt bei Robolab eigentlich: Learning by Doing! Auch was konpliziertere Programmsturkturen angeht!
Markus
Ist es erlaubt an der solarzelle und am damm teile anzuf*gen?
lg.
Die Alt.Elten
- Message by: icNRG 2340 10/17/2007 22:05:42 GMT
Hallo,
Ich versuche Sie etwas weiter zu helfen:
Lese Bitte Regel 14:
14. Wertungsobjekte
Wertungsobjekte sind Objekte, die Punkte erzielen k*nnen, wenn sie am richtigen Standort sind. Um gewertet zu werden, muss jedes Wertungsobjekt die Anforderungen der einzelnen Missionen erf*llen, unabh*ngig wo der Roboter oder strategische Objekte sind. Es ist nicht erlaubt, Wertungsobjekte zu b*ndeln, zu verbinden oder aneinander anzuf*gen. Es ist erlaubt, sie in einen strategischen Beh*lter zu platzieren.
Ein ausnahme gibt es: Baume aber beschraenkt.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Ab wann darf man Wertungsobjekte, die der Roboter in Richtung Base bringt, von Hand in die Base nehmen?
Vielen Dank im Voraus
RoboSAPiens
- Message by: icNRG 2340 10/20/2007 11:25:04 GMT
Hi,
Ich glaube da haben Sie ein Problem in die Deutche Uebersetzung von die Regeln gefunden.
Normal ist der USA text leitent, ich weiss nicht wie dass genau in BRD gemacht werd.
Hier ist RULE 21 leitent. USA text : wenn Robot teilweise in Base ist darf mann der Robot anfassen ohne straff, Aber wenn der Robot "scoring objects" hat die nicht in Base sind, dann mussen die "scoring object" bleiben auf die letzte Position auf den Matt.
die Deutsche uebersetzung ist anders....
Ich sage immer zu mein team, wenn zweifel folg die tekst aus USA.
[verzeihung vor mein slechte beherrschung von der Deutche Sprache.]
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
darf man die b*ume auf einer plattform platzieren und die plattform verschieben?
- Message by: icNRG 2340 10/24/2007 17:13:31 GMT
Hi Austria!
Sehe:
http://www.hands-on-technology.de/firstlegoleague/fllpp/robotgame?sid=b4d0757d8199a5c6dc8a46e4df859876
Baumpflanzung:
Bewegt die B*ume zu einem beliebigen Gebiet n*rdlich des Hauptflusses. Die B*ume m*ssen aufrecht stehen.
An die B*ume k*nnen f*r diese Aufgabe Teile angef*gt werden.
ABER, Sie mussen sehr gut Lesen! und die kombination mit den Regel ueber Wertungsobjekten gut beobachten.
m.fr.gr.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: Geistesblitze 10/24/2007 17:37:14 GMT
Hallo!
Wir wollten die B*ume eigentlich auch auf eine Platte stellen, aber irgenwo steht, dass man die B*ume mit einem stategischen Objekt verbinden darf, aber z.B. nicht auf eine Platte stellen darf.
Ich glaube das steht auf der hands-on-technology Seite unter h*ufig gestellte Fragen oder so *hnlich.
lg - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/24/2007 20:19:33 GMT
Geheimschrift?
1b - 1p = ok / >1b-1p nicht ok
Wertungsobjekten verbinden nicht ok
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: Ursulaner1050 10/30/2007 19:28:59 GMT
Also,
1 Baum auf eine Platte --> erlaubt {s. Aufgabenstellung}
Alle B*ume zusammen auf eine Platte --> verboten {s. Regel 14} - Message by: Robo de Luxe 1393 11/11/2007 20:46:41 GMT
Laut Regel 14: Es ist nicht erlaubt, Wertungsobjekte zu b*ndeln, zu verbinden oder aneinander anzuf*gen. Es ist erlaubt, sie in einen strategischen Beh*lter zu platzieren.
Mit sie sind ja die Wertungsobjekte gemeint und einen hei*t ja 1!
Also darf man mehrere in ein Beh*lter stecken.
MfG
"Gebt eure Arbeit auf kreative Art und Weise an eure Gemeinde weiter." Was ist beim Forschungsauftrag damit gemeint? Hei*t das, dass wir in der *ffentlichkeit unsere Pr*sentation vorf*hren m*ssen, wie zum Beispiel in der Schule, oder wie? Hoffen auf baldige Antwort, die Attnedorner Geistesblitze
- Message by: Ursulaner1050 11/17/2007 22:08:02 GMT
Ja, ihr m*sst der Gemeinde eure Ergebnisse vortragen,. und dann sp*ter beim Wettbewerb innerhalb von 5 Minuten nur noch sagen, wie es war als ihr das vorgetragen habt, was ihr herausgefunden habt und was die l*sung daf*r sein k*nnte (s. Aufgabe)
MfG
Ursulaner1050
"Gebt eure Arbeit auf kreative Art und Weise an eure Gemeinde weiter." Was ist beim Forschungsauftrag damit gemeint? Hei*t das, dass wir in der *ffentlichkeit unsere Pr*sentation vorf*hren m*ssen, wie zum Beispiel in der Schule, oder wie? Hoffen auf baldige Antwort, die Attnedorner Geistesblitze.
Hallo Lego-Teams,
kann uns einer sagen, was beim Teamwork gefragt oder gefordert wird? Wird das ganze Team ben*tigt?
www.godsofrobots.de
- Message by: LEGOCreators 11/15/2007 14:47:18 GMT
Tja
das wei* wohl niemand, denn das ist ja das gro*e fragezeichen was jetzt noch nicht gekl*rt ist.
Mal schaun was kommt. - Message by: Ursulaner1050 11/17/2007 22:05:38 GMT
Hallo godsofrobots....
da wir schon unseren Wettbewerb hatten (3.Platz der Gesamtwertung), weiss ich, was es mit der Aufgabe auf sich hat, aber es w*re unfair, das hier zu erz*hlen, aber ich kann sagen: Ja, das ganze Team wird ben*tigt, und es geht um die Kommunikation zwischen den Teammitgliedern
Hallo!
Wo genau liegt die Solarzelle bei der ersten Aufgabe?
Vor dem Haus? Oder auf dem Parkplatz? Oder doch wo anders?
MfG
- Message by: icNRG 2340 11/06/2007 17:55:42 GMT
Hi,
sehe hier:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/hot/
Solarzellen vom Dach, Wasserstoffauto, Strommasten, Damm und Hochwasser, 5 wei*e *lf*sser, 4 B*ume und 2 Windturbinen
Diese Modelle werden ohne Klettkleber in der Base und/oder in dem wei*en Bereich des Parkplatzes aufgestellt.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Hallo,
meine Frage: Was ist die Starposition, oder besser: Was ist mit dem Wort START gemeint? Bezeichent dieser Begriff nur den ersten Start zu Beginn eines Matches, oder jeden einzelenen Start w*hrend eines Matches, also jedes Mal, wenn der Roboter die Base verl*sst?
MfG
Ursulaner1050
- Message by: AuP Junior 11/08/2007 20:26:33 GMT
Das bezeichnet jeden einzelnen Start w*hrend eines Matches. Der Roboter, oder irgendetwas Angebautes, darf nie *ber die Base (wei*e Fl*che, nicht Stra*e drum rum) hinausragen... Er muss immer komplett dadrin stehen, damit man starten darf.
gr**e,
markus
Hallo,
meine Frage: Was ist die Starposition, oder besser: Was ist mit dem Wort START gemeint? Bezeichent dieser Begriff nur den ersten Start zu Beginn eines Matches, oder jeden einzelenen Start w*hrend eines Matches, also jedes Mal, wenn der Roboter die Base verl*sst?
MfG
Ursulaner1050
Hallo!
Kann mir jemand sagen, wo genau der Bereich ist, in dem die Wellenturbine stehen muss.
Kann / oder muss sie teilweise auf dem Land un im Wasser stehen?
Gr**e
Dieter
Hallo,
Ist es beim Autotausch erlaubt das Wasserstoffauto in der Base auf die Seite oder auf das Dach zu drehen?
MfG
- Message by: icNRG 2340 11/11/2007 23:04:50 GMT
Wenn nichts geschrieben ist dass das es nicht erlaubt ist....
Tipp, lese den tekst gut.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 11/12/2007 15:46:39 GMT
Ist erlaubt, es soll zum Haus gebracht werden, das wie ist nicht vorgeschrieben, unsere Auto lag auf dem Dach und es hat gez*hlt.
RoboSAPiens
Hallo!
In der Aufgabe Stromversorgung hei*t es:
F*r jedes Dorf, das auf diese Weise mit dem Kraftwerk verbunden ist, gibt es 5 Punkte.
F*r ein angeschlossenes Dorf, das gleichzeitig eine richtig platzierte Windturbine besitzt, gibt es weitere 5 Punkte. Gleiches gilt f*r den richtig positionierten Damm.
Das hei*t doch das wenn in dem Dorf eine Turbine und ein Damm steht gibt es 10 Punkte.
Wenn aber 2 Windturbinen und der Damm in dem Dorf stahen gibt es dann 15 Punkte?
- Message by: icNRG 2340 11/11/2007 23:06:16 GMT
Lesen...
max punkte 30, (need I say more?, if so i'll hear or read it)
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Frage: Ist es w*hrend der Roboter nicht in der Base ist, also z.b. eine Mission erf*llt, erlaubt strategische Objekte oder Wertungsobjekte im Parkplatz ohne Punktabzug anzufassen oder zu ver*ndern?
Dank an alle Beteiligten des Regionalwettbewerbes in Brandenburg und dem Team OGELMAET Senior alles Gute f*r Triberg.
Die RoboSAPiens
Wat is uw team de reactie op de aankondiging van de 2008 Challenge?
Folder: Feedback 07/23/2007 12:10:17 GMT
Folder: FIRST Feedback 04/21/2008 21:51:53 GMT
Discussion: Project assignment By: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 04/21/2008 21:51:53 GMT
This year, a large number of teams attending a tournament I coordinate declined the project interview or attended the interview with no project prepared. Comments from the project judges seem to indicate that overall, the projects were less creative than in previous years, and more than usual seemed thrown together at the last minute. Unfortunately, some of the most creative and fun-to-watch projects seemed to sidestep the assignment (they were about energy in general, but ignored the audit), so they had to be marked down. What surprised me was that even some well-seasoned veteran teams showed up without projects.
When talking with some of the coaches, they reported that the kids were less inspired by this year's project than in previous years. One coach said, "This audit is like a college assignment, not an elementary or middle school assignment." The problem was not so much that the kids were assigned to do an energy audit, but that the form provided in the resources was so detailed and rigid. It seemed that if the kids were allowed to brainstorm and figure out what things should be measured in an energy audit, then figure out on their own how they would verify/confirm their results, there would still be some fun in the project. Being spoonfed the form and being told to find a building administrator to fill in all the blanks was cumbersome and uninspiring.
It's my hope that next year's project will be more open-ended, allowing the kids to approach the project more creatively and with greater imagination. This will benefit both the rookies and the veterans. Remember the "I" in FIRST.
Yolande
- Message by:0222520A 11/28/2007 00:54:32 GMT
I have to disagree. This project forced my girls to work a little outside their comfort level. Interviewing a building manager and contacting the power company is intimidating to a 10 year. But I think they gained a lot of confidence during the process. Hopefully this will be demonstrated during the tournament.
The project was more clearly defined this year, but I don't think that limited their creativity in any way. The energy audit form was just one of many resources that they used in their presentation. And their solutions range from the mundane and easily implemented to some serious flights of fancy. But they still pale in comparison one of the teams I heard about that who plan to harvest lightning as a power source!
Last year's project was fun, and expanded the girls horizons, but hasn't had much effect on their lives. This year's project is already paying dividends. One of the girls convinced her parents to choose a computer with a better energy star rating. Another replaced several incandescent bulbs with cfl's. My daughter is turning off the lights and TV when she leaves a room, and she wants a LED lamp for Christmas. - Message by: bears299 12/14/2007 06:14:34 GMT
I think one good thing about this year's project was that it could not be done before the kickoff date. Even if you had a team that met all summer to practice with the robot, and did a lot of research about energy, you didn't know that you needed to choose a specific building and find energy savings ideas for that building. So it helped to keep all the teams on a more equal schedule for the project. I have heard of teams that in previous years had pretty much completed the project before September since they expected to get to choose some aspect of the theme and do whatever they wanted to tell about it.
Linda - Message by: robodogs2506 12/19/2007 17:41:30 GMT
How has your team responded to the 2008 challenge? - Message by: stclaretransformers1409 04/21/2008 21:51:53 GMT
I would have to agree that the project this year was very limiting. Last year, we were able to create a short movie, use excerpts from movies, and be fairly creative.
This year, we were forced to audit buildings, and with four registered teams, that was no small task. Since each team needed a separate project, we had to audit four buildings. We wound up researching our school, the local zoo, a solar powered house, and a cupcake bakeshop. While it was great to get out into the community, the project was a lot of work, and we were scrambling to have it finished by the December qualifier.
In the end, it still worked out well, but I prefer the free form approach of years passed.
This year, there have been several concerns regarding this year*s Challenge, which hopefully will be considered for next year and beyond. I will try to summarize here, and hopefully, others will post where I have omitted.
1. The Challenge does not require sensor use, and this is a big disadvantage in technical judging. There are teams that can score 400 consistently without using a single sensor, and they are severely downgraded in judging for *Sensor Use*, even if they can explain that they tried sensors and found them less reliable than odometry.
2. There was a lack of variety in this year*s missions. Many of the tasks were *out and back* tasks, requiring no climbing, little turning/navigation, and again, no sensors. While there should always be some *out and back* missions that rookies can accomplish, there should also be some mid-range and difficult challenges so that excellent teams can be set apart from *pretty good* ones, and a score of 400 is rare.
For more details see these threads:
2007 Challenge too easy:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9c8ed
Technical: Technical scoring: building for the judges vs. building for the table
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9c9ff
Yolande
Folder: Forum Feedback 09/29/2007 04:18:49 GMT
Discussion: RSS Feed for Forum Users By: WomenInBlack3513 08/18/2007 03:37:54 GMT
I feel it would be very useful for busy coaches and students if parts of the Forum were available for reading via a RSS feed in addition to e-mail subscription. Any one else have a thought on this idea?
Mitch Strickland
Coach, Atlanta Girls' School FLL Teams (#3513, #3518 & #3522)
We will check the forum for any problems. Please check back soon.
- Message by: FloridaModirator 09/07/2007 18:38:10 GMT
Testing. - Message by: KickBot 3881 09/28/2007 22:37:16 GMT
I think I posted a message but I can't find were it is listed? Help - Message by: crazycreators252 09/29/2007 04:18:49 GMT
See the orange tab below labeled Search?
Search for your name, "Kickbot".
US -> FLL Rules and Mission -> Grid Connection
There is no Add discussion button.
I guess you guys forgot to allow read/write access to that folder?
Paul Tan.
Not sure how feasible it is, but what I'd like to be able to see is a list of all the new posts since the last time I visited, preferrably sorted by category. I'd rather have to scroll through the irrelevant ones than have to drill down through each of the topics which could be of interest.
- Message by: zap4702 09/16/2007 04:01:05 GMT
You can do this by subscribing to the folders which contain the discussions you are interested in. Then new messages will appear in the Message Centre when you click on the Message Centre button each time you access the Forum. For more information, you really should read through the Quick Forum Help area which is the top folder in the Forum.
Doreen,
Team ZAP! - Message by: The Eagles 09/16/2007 18:21:29 GMT
Thank you. I hadn't realized I could subscribe to an entire folder.
Would it be possible (in future, if not this year) to put the mission and rules specific fora at the op level. Most of this discussion, which is relevant to all teams, takes place inside the US forum but that is not necessarily obvious to new coaches.
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/20/2007 16:42:04 GMT
I think that's a very good idea.
Even the World Festival link is under the US folder. Sure, it's held in Atlanta, but there are teams from everywhere that attend.
The Challenge is the same across the whole world, isn't it?
- Gary
Hello Sysop
the mail to link on your page don't work...
... and I need your help for the settings.
Best regards
Roman Gieruc
Coach of Roboteens
from Switzerland
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/20/2007 16:45:05 GMT
I don't know if this will work or not, but you might try @usfirst.org instead. - Message by: roboteens1013 09/23/2007 12:46:17 GMT
Hello MI FLL Volunteer Moderator,
Thank you very much for your advice. I go to try it right now.
Roman Gieruc
Coach of Roboteens
from Switzerland
Hi Sysop,
Will you add South Africa to the country list in the preferences please?
I have tried to send this via email but the email address in the sysop link (admin.forum@legoleague.org) does not work. I have also tried admin.forum@usfirst.org and admin.forum@firstlegoleague.org. None of them work.
Thanks
John
Folder: LEGO Feedback 12/14/2007 23:03:24 GMT
Discussion: NXT changes that would help FLL By: bears299 12/14/2007 23:03:24 GMT
Dear LEGO,
1. Please sell packages of very short wires (4"/10 cm).
2. Please change the software so that when you back out of a program, the screen does not default back to the first program in the list. In other words, if you have 5 programs, and you just ran program #3, you can press the gray button to leave program #3, then one push of the left arrrow goes to program #2, or one push of the right arrow goes to program #4.
Linda
Folder: FRANCE 04/25/2008 15:47:26 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:07:33 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
Salut!
Est-ce qu'il y a quelqu'un qui aimerait correspondre avec un jeune americain qui aime la robotique?
Muriel
Folder: ISRAEL 10/07/2007 07:53:47 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 10/07/2007 07:53:47 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
- Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/05/2007 02:22:53 GMT
Go to Techbrick.com. I heard from Israel that there is some good info there. Hope to see you all at the competition. Good luck.
From the U.S.. - Message by: Highlanders 5947 10/07/2007 07:53:47 GMT
Way to go, Tech Brick! Your site is amazing! Thanks for the great tools and resources .. and ideas!
Good luck this year.
Roxy Kohler - Anchorage, Alaska
- Message by: MarltonMustangs2142 09/11/2007 22:02:58 GMT
hello
Folder: JAPAN 03/05/2008 20:12:57 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 10/08/2007 00:33:35 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
- Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/08/2007 00:33:35 GMT
Thanks for the info!!!!!
U.S.A.
We are team icNRG, a Dutch team who won a ticket to tha Open Asian Championships.
So far we don't have an overview who is coming.
Who can give us more information?
Folder: KOREA 12/19/2007 01:31:20 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 12/19/2007 01:31:20 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
- Message by: CSP_1 12/18/2007 21:43:00 GMT
u suk korea go die u @#$#%'s - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/19/2007 01:31:20 GMT
I do not know what that comment should mean, I strongly suggest that this will be removed by the moderators.
Folder: Make International Contacts 03/09/2008 22:18:02 GMT
Discussion: Greetings from the UK By: theroboteers232 12/31/2007 18:15:15 GMT
Hello to everyone, if you would like to get into contact with a primary school team based in the UK we would love to hear from you.
Regards
Ivan
Blakesley Primary School
aka The Roboteers Team 232
- Message by: STEPP218 09/11/2007 21:10:21 GMT
Does this include other UK Primary Schools ?
I can put you in touch with two in Norfolk, (England) - Message by: theroboteers232 11/16/2007 01:21:12 GMT
Yes definately, sorry about the late reply
Regards
Ivan
Blakesley Primary School - Message by: riyadhschools 12/29/2007 11:21:06 GMT
hellow dear
nice to meet you
have my greeting from Riyadh schools KSA
Ahmed Eldeep - Message by: theroboteers232 12/31/2007 18:15:15 GMT
Hi Ahmed
I have put some photo's from our day at the tournament up on our school website, take a look and let us have any comments. There are also some info about the Lego robotics club we run at school as well.
www.blakesleyprimary.com
Regards
Ivan Angell
(Team coach 'The Roboteers 232')
Blakesley CE Primary School
UK
can we put the wind turbines on the farm land????
- Message by: Hybrid Force368 11/06/2007 23:47:19 GMT
can we move the wind turbines into the farm land and can the dam be moved up the river and flood some of the farm land??? - Message by: Hybrid Force368 11/06/2007 23:50:16 GMT
can we move the wind turbines on the farm land and move the dam so it will flood the farmland and not get points subtracted from our score?? - Message by: Green Friends 11/07/2007 21:30:46 GMT
i thought someone might have some answers but 2 bad u ppl have the same questions as us - Message by: Green Friends 11/07/2007 21:31:25 GMT
do you no how to move the solar pannel onto the house by the sea - Message by: Green Friends 11/07/2007 21:32:04 GMT
SOS HELP US HELP USPLEASE WE REALLY BADLY NEED HELP WE'RE NOT SMART - Message by: theroboteers232 11/16/2007 01:22:57 GMT
What do you need help with?
Ivan
Blakesley Primary School - Message by: bears299 11/24/2007 21:30:52 GMT
Putting the solar panel on the roof is one of the harder missions because it requires lifting the panel and precise placement so it doesn't fall off. Have you done any of the easier missions that just require pushing an object? Start with simple stuff first. You do not have to do the solar panel mission.
Linda - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/09/2007 18:26:52 GMT
Yes you may put windmill(s) on the farm, and may have one end of the dam on the farm. If the dam or the flood ends up touching one of the red house outlines on the farm, you will get a penalty.
- Gary - Message by: Power Pirates 11/27/2007 14:52:23 GMT
Email flltech@usfirst.org if you'r not sure if you can o somthing or not.
hi every body
I am Ahmed Eldeep coach of Riyadh schools team , i hope to exchange experience and knowledges with other teams and coaches from KSA and worldwide
please define yourself
Hi, we are "De Spaarlampjes" (Power Saving Lights), a team from the Johannesschool in The Netherlands. We qualified for the Open Asian Championships and would like to come in contact with teams who will participate in this event as well. The other team from The Netherlands will be icNRG.
If possible we would like to meet a team from Japan (in school) during our visit as we plan to stay a bit longer. We are a team with 7 children aged 11/12 years old.
We hope to see you all in Japan and have fun with the preparations.
Teamcoach "De Spaarlampjes"
- Message by: icNRG 2340 01/29/2008 13:32:33 GMT
Hi everybody we are also going to the Japan FLLOAC !
check also this thread in the USA forum.
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9cb47
SAYONARA !
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Please help us to help the only known FLL team in Afghanistan, the Kite Runners, to be able to attend the World Festival this year. We are trying to raise money to allow the Kite Runners to afford to attend the World Festival. They really need your help! To Donate, go to www.firstwa.org. Every penny helps and you can use PayPal to donate. Without your help, they cannot possibly afford to attend.
Thank you!
The Gothic Lawn Gnomes 426
Folder: MEXICO 11/30/2007 01:27:24 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:09:08 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
alguien entendio que onda con eso del petroleo en la granja por q sesupone que un barril de petroleo debe estar en la granja para que cuente la mision del maiz pero si pones un barril de petroleo pierdes 40 puntos alguin sabe algo de esto
- Message by: Green Friends 10/10/2007 20:02:25 GMT
para empezar lo puedes explicar bien no te entendi ni papa - Message by: Green Friends 10/10/2007 20:06:07 GMT
miiichelle !!!! - Message by: panteras261 10/11/2007 04:04:18 GMT
mas facil para que te cunte la prueba de el maiz debes dejar un barril de petroleo en la granja - Message by: Green Friends 11/28/2007 19:47:46 GMT
que espliicate pork se nota k no sabes nada - Message by: Bulltronics789953 11/30/2007 01:27:24 GMT
lo que pasa es que en los unicos lugares en los cuales puedes tener barriles es en la base, el estacionamiento y la granja.
si no dejas un barril en la granja, la mision del maiz no cuenta.
Folder: PERU 10/18/2007 00:16:50 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 10/18/2007 00:16:50 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
- Message by: spartanbots 10/02/2007 05:23:38 GMT
Hay una escuela Peruana participa este a*o ?
Roberta (de Hawaii) - Message by: brain2007 10/18/2007 00:16:50 GMT
Hi,
My name is sharmila.I have a 6 yr old son who is very much interested in building legos .Recently my son has joined as a member in JFFL 2007.I live in knoxville,tennesse.He likes to join in a team and participate in the touranament.I used to buy legos of age (6-12) which are available in stores ,which he builds by himself by referring the manual or sometimes by hinself.He is so much interested .What should i do to form a team and my son to get a proper lego education? Is there anything that i can do ?Please help my son to participate
in the tournament
thanks,
sharmila
Folder: SCANDINAVIA 08/28/2007 15:36:22 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/28/2007 15:36:22 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
- Message by: LEGO1 08/27/2007 15:54:16 GMT
OK - thanks for sharing! - Message by: 08/27/2007 15:55:29 GMT
Deleted - Message by: LEGO1 08/28/2007 15:36:22 GMT
Folder: SINGAPORE 12/21/2007 01:15:56 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:09:49 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
2007 FLL Singapore Competition Results.
- Message by: dromeimpalerz94 12/21/2007 01:15:56 GMT
See attachment for the 2007 FLL Singapore Competition Results.
Folder: SOUTH AFRICA 08/17/2007 17:10:14 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:10:14 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
Folder: SPAIN 10/09/2007 15:08:30 GMT
Folder: TAIWAN 08/17/2007 17:10:32 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:10:32 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
Folder: TURKEY 08/17/2007 17:10:51 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:10:51 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
Folder: UNITED KINGDOM 01/14/2008 08:55:42 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:05:41 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
Hi all just a quick question about trees! My pupils are asking how many trees can you move at any one time! Is there a limit or is it as many as you can??? We can not find anything about this so I am assuming the number is any at all.
- Message by: icNRG 2340 11/10/2007 20:52:30 GMT
Hi John,
our team will move all 4 in 1 time. I think the question is not how many, but rather how (to do it within the rules)
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: STEPP218 11/12/2007 19:30:31 GMT
My understanding is that you can move as many as you want at the same time, as long as they are not joined together in any way.
Have a look at the US Forum as well as the official Q&As for more help on this, and many other, questions. - Message by: green machine 11/13/2007 15:18:00 GMT
where do you put the rest of the barrels what aren't in the oil rig. - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/14/2007 15:35:59 GMT
See the field setup instructions. 3 red in the truck, 5 white in base.
- Gary
Does anyone know how to make a robot do two things at once on the 'Mindstorms NET Software'
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/26/2007 19:45:20 GMT
What two kinds of things do you want to do? You can turn your drive motors on to go forward, and then turn your arm motor on to raise or lower it.
- Gary - Message by: crazycreators252 11/27/2007 03:29:43 GMT
http://www.ortop.org/NXT_Tutorial/html/advanced.html
Go here and watch the multiple tasks tutorial.
Hope this helps,
Dave - Message by: Power Pirates 11/27/2007 18:25:30 GMT
We want to move around whilst making our arm do tasks - Message by: 12/18/2007 21:48:03 GMT
Deleted - Message by: 12/18/2007 21:49:25 GMT
Deleted
Hello everybody,
Team Watt is a dutch team that has been developing a modular robotdesign which allows very short rebuild times in between missions for the last 2 years, called MOT.
Since we get more and more questions from teams how to build this, we have added some instructions (in English) to our website, which is mainly in dutch. http://www.freewebs.com/wattateam/mottechniek.htm
We invite everybody to share and try this design, because it is really fast.
Good luck with all the tournaments still comming up, our next game is Beneluxfinals in Enschede, Netherlands.
Greetz
Watt a team!
Lego Geckos would be very interested to hear from teams who will be at the UK Final in Birmingham in February 2008
- Message by: TechHEds410 01/09/2008 22:11:06 GMT
We will be. Who are Lego Geckos? - Message by: STEPP218 01/13/2008 19:42:56 GMT
Winners of Essex Regional.
A new Team from Litcham High School, Norfolk, though one member was part of TechnoBotts last year.
Looking forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks - Message by: TechHEds410 01/13/2008 22:07:06 GMT
We were SHeeN last year (winners of Swindon). Were the TechnoBotts the people we met at breakfast last year? Three boys with a father doing really well with NXT? - Message by: STEPP218 01/13/2008 23:12:43 GMT
Well remembered !
We - certainly family Sheard, including Luke, (exTEchnoBotts, now LegoGeckos) - shall be doing the same this year.
Will we see you at breakfast on Saturday, February 3 at the Hilton, Bromsgrove ?
FYI - TechnoBotts split into two, after the FLL World Festival, where we finished 27th. TechnoBotts II competed at Cambridge, but did not win.
They are doing RoboCup Junior instead/as well, if only to find out what it is all about. - Message by: TechHEds410 01/14/2008 08:55:42 GMT
No, sorry. We are in a Travelodge this year.
I hope you are having fun and we look forward to seeing you on 2 Feb.
Folder: UNITED STATES 09/10/2007 14:14:00 GMT
Folder: FLL Coaches Handbook - pdf available for downloading (Read Only) 08/23/2007 23:30:33 GMT
Folder: FLL Equipment Discussions 09/07/2007 20:31:06 GMT
Folder: Battery Questions 11/19/2007 02:25:59 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/21/2007 04:09:44 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
- Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 09/20/2007 20:14:41 GMT
Help! This is the only thead I can post a message to. The "Post Message" button does not show for me on any other part of the forum. I can see "Change subscripts" "Check messages" "message centre" "Search" and then below that I see
"Preferences".
I am using Firefox, but the same problem with IE. Any idea what might be wrong? - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/21/2007 04:09:44 GMT
Is there a gap between the search line and preferences?
I just looked around and it seems ok for me. If its still a problem in the morning, email me at skye@fll-freak.com
-Skye
Hello,
When we were running one of the missions, the NXT just died. We thought it was out of battery,but whennwe tried to charge it, the red bulb is not glowing. The green is glowing.
Do we need to reset NXT?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/19/2007 02:25:59 GMT
The green light would indicate that the battery is charged. If the NXT is not behaving, them I would reseat the battery. If that does not fix it, the next thing I would do would be a reset. If that fails, then I would call PITSCO (if you got this NXT from FIRST) and tell them your problem. PITSCO and LEGO are very good about replacements.
-Skye
Folder: Equipment Marketplace 03/28/2008 00:06:36 GMT
Discussion: New Updated Software By: OGEL MAET 09/22/2007 16:19:03 GMT
This is a FLL question, how can I get the new updated software? I know they have been sent out already. Fed-Ex claims to have delivered mine to me back on the 28th. but there is no such package. How can I get another without paying another $20. Thanks so much,
Paul (Coach) Anderson, SC
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/10/2007 15:43:36 GMT
If you have a delivery problem, you should contact FedEx and ask for details on the delivery. If you did not get it, talk to Pitsco and file a claim. The number for Pitsco should be in your handbook.
-Skye - Message by: LegoLeaders5452 09/15/2007 00:04:26 GMT
I haven't received my kits yet - what updated software are you referring to? - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/15/2007 01:54:45 GMT
The NXT-G software that ships with the new FLL robot kits is version 1.1. THe previous verison was 1.0.
-Skye - Message by:00A36201 09/22/2007 16:19:03 GMT
Note talk to pitsco and ask for signature confrimation.
I am interested in buying 5 Power Challenge field setup kits at the end of this season (to loan out to area schools along with some donated NXT kits). Contact me if you are interested in selling, or making a tax-deductible donation.
- Message by: SmithRams3589 10/12/2007 18:29:42 GMT
oldwells1149,
Just to let you know, you can purchase old field setup kits from FIRST at the cost of shipping only. At least that was the offer for me since I am the new partner for Oklahoma. It's worth a call. - Message by: otjunior2007 03/27/2008 18:26:02 GMT
Thank you for this information.
Can I call the customer service ?
IF you give me more detail, it's great...
Thanks in advance.
We are waiting to get our board but do not know when we will get it?
- Message by: Powerhouses6682 10/05/2007 03:30:58 GMT
Hope this helps, 4742: We registered our team on September 21. The field support kit arrived on Sept. 29, and the board arrived on October 2. Good luck!
Powerhouses6682
Hi,
I'm looking into creating a new FLL team. We can't register until May and after multiple emails are also being told we can't buy a Robot Kit or Field Kit (from last year) to practice with until then.
I'd love to get a used Robot and Field kit to start the kids playing with.
Anyone got one to sell?
I do know you can buy an NXT kit from Lego Education, but would rather get the exact FLL kit.
Thanks in advance,
Mike Kabot
boatlvr68@yahoo.com
- Message by: Team4287 03/28/2008 00:06:36 GMT
You might wish to check www.ebay.com. Every once an awhile a field kit from previous years does show up for auction.
-- Stephen
Folder: LEGO Building Questions 12/18/2007 03:11:21 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/11/2007 22:45:17 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
- Message by: MarltonMustangs2142 09/11/2007 21:04:45 GMT
Are we aloud to attach other robots to our robot that do different missions? - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/11/2007 22:45:17 GMT
It would depend on your definition of a robot. If you want to use multiple NXT/RCX controllers than the answer is no. Please read the Allowable Materials rule.
If you want to give a good definition of "robot" than we might be able to answer your question better.
-Skye
Not being super-Lego-construction savy, I've had to learn alot recently about general good lego construction techniques. The NXT education kit, however, came with LEGO pieces that I can't for the life of me understand what might be their typical use.
Graphic would be nice, but best I can describe it, this small piece, about the size of a simple black connecter pin, has a pin connection on one end and a "truck hitch ball" on the other end. The set came with quite a few, so I thought maybe it was going to insert into a socket and serve as a rotation point. But this hitch ball doesn't seem to insert into any other lego connecter that I see. My closest guess is that if you insert a bunch of these into a field of adjacent holes, you end up with a field of "velcro" that would loosely connect to another such field. Is there any obvious use for this plentiful piece?
Just curious.
- Message by: Team4287 10/02/2007 22:26:19 GMT
I too had always wondered what the "intended" purpose of the parts were. After watching the kids build / modify their robot last year, I no longer have that curiosity anymore. Basically, my attitude changed.
Instead of becoming curious on the intent of the Lego pieces were, I became curious in seeing how the kids would use the strange unknown pieces. Sometimes, they used two "truck hitch balls" to hold a Lego rubber band between them. Other times, they used it to minimized friction as the pushed a container across the mat. And still other times it was just decorations on the robot.
While I know that didn't answer your original question, I was hoping to show you that you have a bunch of mini-MacGyvers and the sky is the limit on how the kids will use the pieces.
Have a great season and may you be pleasantly surprise and delighted with your team.
Stephen
Coach
CO FLL
MeteorStorm - Message by: hoffman1702 10/02/2007 22:46:23 GMT
Yes, one of my sons did a really cool mechanical solution to last year's Cancer cell challenge, that used those pieces. They held a number of rubber bands in place. The rubber bands kept a small area where the "ball" was placed closed until the robot moved up to the cancer cell. Then the motion of movement triggered the movement of the lower half of the attachment, releasing the ball perfectly into the slot. I was amazed--and it opened up his mind to mechanical solutions that don't require use of a motor. - Message by:0175DA2B 10/03/2007 15:50:08 GMT
They are used in the Alpha Rex model in the retail kit, connecting to a socket in another piece. See the building guide for it at http://www.legoeducation.info/nxt/resources/building-guides/ - Message by: CyberPueoz2946 10/04/2007 17:46:05 GMT
A good resource for thosse wanting to know the names of the pieces is this book I borrowed from the library Unofficial Lego Builder's Guide by Allen Bedford. Shows pictures and names.
Can we use the red or blue balls that come with the kit? They are originally designed as an object to use in a little game the robot "plays," but one of our kids has used the ball as a third wheel in the robot design. I don't think the ball says EGO on it, but it came with the kit.
Also, can you use the netting from last year's challenge set?
I checked the UFAQ but saw nothing that addresses these pieces directly.
Thanks,
Cynthia
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 12:46:36 GMT
The balls are DUPLO and are valid LEGO parts. Back in No Limits, a bunch of the balls were used as mission elements. The net is legal LEGO as well.
-Skye - Message by: Mindstorm Molecules 236 10/14/2007 00:02:04 GMT
Same question re: the "scorpion claws"? Legit for use? Is there any piece that came in the NXT kit that can't be used? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/14/2007 02:08:04 GMT
Parts from an NXT kit that can't be used:
1) The various boxes and packaging.
2) The twisties that held the cables together
3) The plastic trays for holding parts
4) The instruction booklet(s)
5) The software CD and its case. You may use the disk to install (and then use) the NXT-G program but you may not use the disk as a building element.
LEGO building elements from the LEGO, DUPLO, or BIONICLES are all legal if in factory original condition. That would include the scorpion claws.
-Skye - Message by: Mindstorm Molecules 236 10/14/2007 04:23:16 GMT
Same question re: the "scorpion claws"? Legit for use? Is there any piece that came in the NXT kit that can't be used? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/14/2007 14:57:53 GMT
Same answer as before.
-Skye - Message by: patriots1177 11/15/2007 03:15:46 GMT
Can we utilize a pull back motor provided in a LEGO Racer set independent of the robot base to construct a device to send the hydrogen car to the house or the pick-up truck to the farm after getting it back to the parking lot, understanding that it could not be attached to either vehicle itself? - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/15/2007 03:37:00 GMT
Yes you may with certain constraints.
You may wind the motor manualy before and during the match.
Your ROBOT must release the windup.
The ROBOT must release the windup after it has fully left the base.
-Skye
Are we allowed to glue the lego pieces together on our own robot to prevent it from falling apart during the competition? - Rob
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/14/2007 14:59:06 GMT
Perhaps you should carefully read the rules including rule 7.
-Skye - Message by: panteras261 10/14/2007 20:15:00 GMT
you may not glue them but you can lego string them - Message by:0222520A 10/15/2007 07:45:22 GMT
If you need to glue the robot together to prevent it falling apart it is probably too flimsy to perform well. A flimsy robot will not drive straight or turn repeatably. - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/04/2007 05:58:11 GMT
If your robot is falling apart, I would look into a more robust design. You can purchase some wonderful books about building with the NXT system.
-David (the kid)
I am coaching a rookie team of 11 year old boys. They seem to have no idea how to build at all. Are there any resources out there that will help them learn about how to build things with moving parts? (especially gears!)
Thanks!
-Christine
Mindstorm Maniacs
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 12:53:18 GMT
The the online book "Building LEGO robots for FLL" available here: http://www.hightechkids.org/index.php?2-1-1071
-Skye - Message by:0175DA2B 10/23/2007 03:40:00 GMT
Also search for the Lego Constructopedia. It might or might not help.
After 7 weekly after-school sessions, our rookie group of 11-year-olds gave up today. This challenge was overwhelming, even for the adults. We spent our time today just "playing Legos" and programming crazy stuff and it was genuinely fun. I hope to loan out the NXT kits to their families over the coming year to keep their interests up. Maybe we will try again next year, but y'know, for the high cost of registration and the field setup kit, we could probably find ways to have fun building more practical or cool things.
I plan to attend our local competition as a spectator, and there's a nonzero chance that one or two dedicated kids might decide that they really want to work to complete the challenge over the next two Saturdays, but I can only push and encourage them so much.
Anyone other rookie teams bailing out? Was this year's challenge unusually confusing? Do any winning teams meet only 2 hours per week for two months? - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/23/2007 10:35:50 GMT
Tony,
I am really sad to read your message and I hope that you will reverse your decision!
FLL is NOT about winning. There are NO losers!
Competing in the FLL is a journey to get the kids interested in engineering, ict and technique. It is about teambuilding, about doing things together, researching, presenting, creating a robot, programming* That experience is so important.
In our rookie year we had a robot that could do 2 missions, but our team members were as proud as the robot award winning team. We did not have an idea how the project was supposed to be done. Each team can do their own thing, even if there is an elaborate project description this year, it is up to the team to decide what, how and how much time is needed.
If you reverse your decision and enter the competition, You will see that your team will be winners (even if low down in the scores, that really does not matter at all)
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/23/2007 12:39:32 GMT
I fully support Coach-D's comments.
i Do any winning teams meet only 2 hours per week for two months?
How do you want to define winning? If that means being the World Champion; no. Top teams meet on and off all year for several years. During the season they are likely to put in at least 6 hours a week in meetings plus homework. I am aware of one top team whose students put in nearly 40 hours a week.
If you define winning as learning something and getting excited about science and engineering, than you can do that in just 45 minutes a week.
Yes this year's challenge was less than straight forward. For veterans it was a welcome change. For rookies, I can imagine is was confusing. But even with all the complexity, there are at least a few very simple missions that just need a buldozer mission.
Just focus on ONE of those and get your team to a competition. NOTHING speaks to a student like the excitement of an FLL competition.
-Skye - Message by: 10/23/2007 21:39:31 GMT
Deleted - Message by: 10/23/2007 21:45:48 GMT
Deleted - Message by:0222520A 10/23/2007 21:51:44 GMT
I understand wanting to bail. Two years ago I ran two rookie teams through a community education class. My daughter wanted to do FLL, and it was the only way I could think of to form a team. I had 19 kids. We met after school for two hours two times a week. I could not get these kids to focus on anything. Most of my time was spent herding cats and cleaning up. FLL was too free form for this large a group with this little supervision. Eventually I gave up and decided to teach a robot class.
I taught a series of labs that concentrated on building models that demonstrated mechanical and programming principles. The kids built models/robots using building instructions I supplied. Programming was done the same way, copying programs I had written. After each lab we did experiments, modifying the models or programs and observing the effects of the changes.
After five weeks the kids started to calm down and show interest in building a robot for competition. A small group even expressed an interest in doing the research project. With two weeks to go before the tournament we switched back to FLL mode and built two robots for competition. We also created two research groups that would meet on Tuesday and Friday nights (our regular meetings were Monday and Wednesday).
Three days before our tournament we had two robots that could reliably do 1 mission. We also had a rough research presentation for one team. The day before the tournament I had 8 kids over to my house for a 6 hour marathon session. We added 3 more missions, and two of the kids sat down and wrote two research presentations. One for their own team, and one for the other team. Not only did they write a script, but also a bibliography, props and visual aids.
I only remember one thing about that incredibly hectic day. We were sitting around one of the practice tables playing with the robots (which could now each do 6 missions!). A tournament official came around and gave us our score sheets because I had forgotten to grab them after the awards ceremony. I pulled out the sheets and read the comments and scores to the kids. We had finished last and second to last (but one team got 4th place for programming). I was expecting much wailing an gnashing of teeth.
One of the kids said "Heck, I don't care because that was a lot of fun." The others all agreed and started talking about the good things they had seen other teams doing, and how they were going to have to work harder next year and start earlier. I thought they were going to be devastated, but they all wanted to do it again. Many were hoping we could just continue on having the after school classes!
The following year four of those kids formed their own team with two parents coaching. My daughter formed her own team with three of her friends. They advanced to the state tournament where they got the highest score in research quality. Every time I bump into one of those kids they say "Hi!" and ask if I'm going to do "that LEGO thing again because it was really fun."
As a coach our expectations are often much different than the expectations of those we coach. Our criteria for success is unlikely to be the same as theirs. A trophy or award is a fun thing to win, but it pales in comparison to a day of playing with friends and eating junk food.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
Dean Hystad - Message by: PowerStackers 10/23/2007 14:33:00 GMT
Missions are only 25% of the total score. There are both quarters at project and teamwork.
There are lot of things to learn in the Project for the team, as well as the coach (like myself). That's how keep me coaching. I am researching and learning new things with the team every year. This is a big WINNER already.
Christine and Tony, don't give up. At lease participate at the Regional tournament. Experience the fun of it.
Two hours a week is not enough. There are so many things to learn. This is our 3 years. We have 4-hr meeting on Saturday. Now I start to add a 2-hr meeting on the weekday. I still find not enough time. But we are all learning, of course the Time Management.
Coach Chu
PowerStackers - Message by:0175DA2B 10/23/2007 22:27:03 GMT
I ran an after-school activity with most of these kids as fifth graders last year. We bought retail kits, built the various robots from the instructions in the software, made a Tribot dance, and solved a few simple challenges. They had fun and learned a lot. I decided to give the FLL challenge a try with some of them this fall.
A few things going against us: The kickoff was too early in the school year, we met after school when kids really need a break, teachers and other parents were not available to help, I had a few disruptive kids, the rules and instructions were confusing, and the project was going to be more work than fun.
I sent an email to the parents and I'm still hoping the 2 or 3 kids who really want to do something get together with my son at our house for some last-minute marathon sessions before the competition. It just became obvious that meeting after school was no longer holding the whole group's interest. If nothing else, we will watch the local event and maybe that will get them fired up for next year. - Message by: CGMSC745 10/29/2007 18:55:51 GMT
Victor
I understand your plight. Trying to do everything that you would like with a rookie team and only a couple hours a week just won't work.
Robot design is complex. Add in teaching things like strength, speed, gear ratios, sensors etc. and you have about ten times more stuff to do than time to do it.
My suggestion is about the same as what others have said. Pick an choose what you do. For a rookie team it would be entirely understandable to say "not enough time (or expertise) to design a 'bot from scratch so we'll just use the robot design that came with the set". For NXTs there is an OK design in the book, for RCXs there are a couple good designs in the Constructopedia.
Build that design and then ask the kids which of the challenges can we do with just that basic robot. Usually, there are a least one or two challenges that require nothing but a very simple robot. This year, any robot that can move should be able to do the satellite challenge, just drive the robot over there and run into it. You can probably also do the trees since they just need to be pushed straight out from base. What about the power towers or dam?
This approach is very do-able even in two hours per week. You won't win the national championship but you'll learn stuff, get stuff done and have some fun.
If you get the easy challenges done, then ask the kids what simple things can we do to the basic robot that might let us do one of the more complex challenges? If you attach a couple "pointy sticks" to the front of the robot can you coral the corn and bring it back to base? Keep adding simple things until you run out of time or missions.
After your first year you'll have a core of kids (and coaches!) returning that have been through it before. They've seen how the tournament goes, they've seen other teams 'bots. They have an idea about what would make their robot better (make it faster, stronger, smaller, smarter ... we have the technology). Or, if time is still limiting then just use the same robot again.
In terms of how to approach solving missions the first thing to learn is the KISS principle. Each year I give a ~30 minute talk to my kids about how to approach solving missions. I call it the "Tools that are simpler than simple tools" talk, or "How would a caveman solve this mission?" talk.
Beginners, kids and coaches, tend to over-intellectualize their solutions. So, the "tools that are simpler than simple tools" are just;
1. A rock (the basic caveman tool). Your robot is the rock. Can you solve the mission by just running into it? (Bash it with the rock.)
2. A pointy stick (a slightly more advanced caveman tool). Can you attach an axle (a pointy stick) to the front of the robot and use it to spear something (this year's corn?), or reach into a small space to push something (this year's rail car trigger)?
3. A basket or pot (perhaps the first tool discovered by cavemen after "a rock" and "a pointy stick"). Baskets are useful for delivering loose object out onto the mat. Put a low front edge on the basket and make it into a dust-pan and use it to scoop up things to bring back to base (this years corn?).
4. "The flaming wall of doom." A bulldozer blade, doesn't quite fit into the "caveman" model but it is a very simple idea. A flat surface on the front of the robot will let it push stuff around easily.
In my experience these four approaches will solve nearly every FLL challenge. Each year there will only be one, or at most two, challenges that cannot be solved with these four approaches.
The tricky part not covered by the "tools simpler than simple tools" is navigation of the robot. There are some missions that require fairly complex navigation, and some that require nothing more than driving straight for a short distance. With a rookie team, or when time is limited, just do the missions that don't require complex navigation.
When our robot moves in a straight line, it seems like the two wheels are always trying to catch up with each other by making adjustments. It's a very jerky motion. We've tried different diameter wheels, but that doesn't help. It's not that the robot isn't balanced, because it happens even when it's stripped down to just the basic symmetrical frame. Any suggestions?
- Message by: crazycreators252 10/26/2007 18:59:43 GMT
The problem could be due to your motors not running at exactly the same speed. I have 11 motors - none of them run at the same speed.
The Move command uses the feedback from the rotation sensors to help the robot drive strait. This was done to overcome the RCX's problem of mismatched motors causing the robot to drift right or left (they never went exactly strait).
The NXT Move command runs the robot and monitors the rotation sensors from both motors, If one motor is running faster than the other the faster motor is slowed down to compensate. Thats why, when you use the Move command for motors on 2 ports and you disconnect one motor, the other motor stops to wait for the other motor to catch up. This can be a cause of the wiggle.
Also see //FLL International Forum // UNITED STATES // FLL Equipment Discussions // Motor Questions in this forum.
Dave,
Coach
Team 252
We are a "newbie" team....we tested several robot designs, but the kids have decided to stick with the design that is built with the instructions that come with the kit....will that be allowed?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/17/2007 23:18:17 GMT
You would not believe the number of teams that use the "tribot" design the first year. There is sooooo much to learn that picking a 'proven' design makes sense. So the answer is: Yes, it will be allowed.
On the other hand, as a tech judge this is one thing I look for and mark down for. If the robot is stock and shows no team modifications then they will suffer in the creative sections.
-Skye - Message by: Team4287 12/18/2007 03:11:21 GMT
The key here is modifications.
The "tribot" design is a great starter design and begs to be modified (wheels, computer orientation, pivot wheel, 3rd motor placement, attachments, addition structural support, etc).
Last year my team started with this design and by the end of season it had morphed into something that had no resemblance to original "tribot" design.
This year, they made a list of the things they liked and didn't like and created a whole new originally designed compact robot. This activity took them 3 practice sessions to complete (6 hours or 3/4 of a month). Or in other words, it was expensive for them to create a new robot from scratch.
Hope this helps out in putting things into perspective.
Stephen
CO FLL Coach
Folder: Motor Questions 01/25/2008 00:31:24 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:59:53 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
As our robot moves it has a little wiggle--almost like a side-to-side vibration. We checked balance and for loose parts and all is good. Then one of the kids noticed that the axles wiggle. This is hard to describe, but I'll try... When looking at the motors, the orange part that turns the axle wiggles. In other words, it has a sloppy connection to the white part of the motor. Is this our problem? Do we need new motors? Our set it just a year old but we ran it pretty hard last year. All three motors are the same.
- Message by: Team4287 09/28/2007 08:30:23 GMT
It is difficult to assist you in debugging issues especially hardware ones without actually looking at the robot. As a coach you want the students to have the best opportunity at a tournament yet at the same time you want them to learn and do a lot of work on their own.
So with that said here are some guidelines you can follow to assist the team in determining what maybe the problem (ultimately you want to isolate the problem):
1) Replace the wheels with a complete different set of wheels (including the wheel axles). Run the robot again. If it goes away then you found the problem.
2) Place a axle and a large wheel in a motor and have the student spin that motor at various speeds, while of course holding the robot off the table. You are looking for wiggles and vibration. If there is an issue, you could potentially see the wheel spinning with a wobble. If this is the case then the motor could be bad.
3) If you believe you found one of the motors replace it with the third motor that is not associated with moving it on the table. If you have one bad motor, this should address the problem.
4) If the problem still exists after step three then most likely the robot has another error source that is causing an issue. If you have a third wheel, temporarily replace it with a "stub" lego post with a smooth bottom surface. The purpose is to "drag" the post on the map and see if the robot goes in a straight line (i.e., you will be replacing the wheel with the post). If the robot goes in a straight line then the error source is the third wheel.
5) Are both motors parallel to each other.
Now while I did give you a lot of things to look at it is your responsibility as a coach to NOT DO IT FOR THE KIDS.
Talk with them and assist them in solving this problem. If they can't solve the wiggle, then maybe then can find creative ways to compensate for it.
Who knows, they might decide to exaggerate the wiggle and make it a wobble and make the robot look like a duck. Even with this configuration I am sure you will be successful.
Note: Last year I work with the kids for 1.5+ hours to figure out why the robot would miss the mission objective by 3 to 6 inches each time they attempt it. For me it was easy to see (they never started in the same place each time) but I had them all run the mission over and over again looking for what maybe causing the problem.
By the end of the day, the team members were closer and they all learn how it is important to be consistent. In addition, they learned how to be observant and give and accept constructive advice, as well as, solve issues with their other missions.
Ultimately, what I am trying to say is worry less about the robot and more about how the students work together and find creative ways to solve the problem. For at the end of the season, the robot will be taken apart and forgotten, but the lessons learned and you actions will not.
Hope this helps a little and good luck.
-- Stephen
Coach
CO FLL
MeteorStorm - Message by: 09/28/2007 17:20:16 GMT
Deleted - Message by: crazycreators252 09/28/2007 17:25:25 GMT
Hopkins3256,
Stephen provides sound advice and I have another thought.
I assume the robot is driven with an NXT and you are using NXT-G software.
The problem could be due to your motors not running at exactly the same speed. I have 11 motors - none of them run at the same speed. I ran a test where I ran each motor for 10 seconds while monitoring the rotation sensor value. I actually ran the motor for 14 seconds but only counted rotation sensor degrees 2 seconds after it started and 2 seconds before it stopped to remove the acceleration and deceleration variables. My team then selected for the robot's drive motors: not the fastest motors but the motors that ran the closest speeds.
The Move command uses the feedback from the rotation sensors to help the robot drive strait. This was done to overcome the RCX's problem of mismatched motors causing the robot to drift right or left (they never went exactly strait).
The NXT Move command runs the robot and monitors the rotation sensors from both motors, If one motor is running faster than the other the faster motor is slowed down to compensate. Thats why, when you use the Move command for motors on 2 ports and you disconnect one motor, the other motor stops to wait for the other motor to catch up. So instead of a drift you now get a wiggle.
Dave,
Coach
Team 252 - Message by: Hopkins3256 10/02/2007 05:16:48 GMT
Wow, thanks Stephen and Dave. You both gave me some really good starting points for our session tomorrow. Stephen, I totally agree with you that the real value in this program is the lessons the kids learn about themselves and each other. This is our second year and I still have much so learn about programming, etc. but I know that even if the kids never find the source of the wiggle, they'll find a lot of other things they weren't even looking for!
Linda
Coach
Hopkins Elementary - Message by: Team4287 10/02/2007 08:14:22 GMT
Linda,
Your welcome.
Last year, I was asked to be a coach 2 weeks into the season and had to quickly come up to speed on what was FLL (never heard of it) and all of its logistics. Personally, I know how overwhelming it can be for a first year coach. Because of that, I volunteer as much of my time as possible working with the other coaches.
For me personally the hardest part of being the coach is not the missions, but working with the kids. My objective is to teach them skills and how to think about addressing a problem (not solve it for them). This includes:
* Time management - e.g., write down how long you think it will take to solve a mission and how long it actually did
* Priorities - Your family, schooling, and homework comes before FLL practice.
* Teamwork - All members are team up to do various missions
* Communications - Tell the team / partner what you want to do and why (as opposed to just doing it).
* Setting expectations - e.g., A good season is getting 1/2 of the missions done.
And to have the kids walk away at the end of the season knowing that they had fun.
F.Y.I., Plan 1-2 weeks after the season to just relax. Last year, I was exhausted and didn't want to look at another Lego.
Do get back with us on what you ultimately found / did.
Stephen
Coach
CO FLL
MeteorStorm - Message by: Hopkins3256 10/14/2007 04:44:24 GMT
Hey, I just want to report back that the kids came up with several changes. They improved the balance and gave the axles some support and one kid discovered that the rubber on one of the tires wasn't on perfectly. And I think another kid did something to the pivot wheel. Everyone got in on the action. I don't know which change did the trick but it now runs without the wiggle. Whew! Dave, I did check the speed of the motors too and they are not perfect but we were using the two that were the closest.
Thanks much!
Linda - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/14/2007 15:00:12 GMT
Thanks for reporting back. This is good news.
-Skye - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/02/2007 18:36:50 GMT
"F.Y.I., Plan 1-2 weeks after the season to just relax. Last year, I was exhausted and didn't want to look at another Lego."
What!!!!! How could you even consider doing that when you have a whole field-kit to tear apart and play with?!?!? For the past three years it's been a tradition with our team to take apart the field kit the day after the competition and build as many cool looking models, mechanisms, and thing-a-ma-bobbers before we run out of parts.
-David (the kid) - Message by: Team4287 11/02/2007 19:20:12 GMT
I agree with David, plan to relax. It took me a few months.
During the season last year, another coach and I wanted to setup a little competition between us with our own (Coache's) robot design. We thought it might be fun to implement what we thought the robot should be (as opposed to the teams).
Well, the season was over and both of us didn't want to touch the robot until well into the spring. It is truly amazing how draining coaching is. Unfortunately, by that time we had other activities and never got to have our "mini" competition.
Stephen
CO FLL Coach
MeteorStorm
how do we increase the power of the motors so that they can move more weight. will gears help?
thx.
- Message by: SmithRams3589 10/29/2007 21:50:13 GMT
gear ratio. You will lose some speed but you gain torque. - Message by:0222520A 10/29/2007 23:26:39 GMT
Gears won't increase power, but they can increase torque. Put a small gear on the motor and a big gear on the thing you want to turn (maybe an arm?). The motor gear will spin a lot faster than the gear on the arm. What you get in return for that decrease in speed is an increase in torque.
The relationship in size between the gears determines the speed loss/torque increase. If the large gear is 3 times bigger than the small gear (like a 24 tooth gear and an 8 tooth gear) you turn 3 times slower, and 3 times stronger. What happens if you use an 40 tooth gear an an 8 tooth gear? What happens if you use two gears the same size?
I miss that gears are not needed as much with the NXT as they were with the RCX. I think that was LEGO's biggest mistake with the NXT design, but I think I'm in a minority with that opinion.
Good Luck,
Dean Hystad - Message by: Team4287 10/29/2007 23:58:40 GMT
Dean,
You are not in the minority. In fact, there are a lot of advantages that the RCX has over the NXT, gears is just one of them.
-- Stephen - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 19:08:31 GMT
If you want serious power:
use the 5292 'Electric RC Race Buggy Motor'
check www.peeron.com to get an idea!
"there is NO substitute for cubic inches" (old fashioned chinese saying I believe)
By the way it is completely legal to use them in FLL this season.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/17/2007 19:30:12 GMT
Although the rules do not explicitly mention the types of motors you can use, I do know from experience that only the motors that come with NXT/RCX kits are legal. In the past, FIRST has ruled that the 9 volt non-geared and the micro motors were not legal. I can only assume that the same would be true of any other motor including the buggy motors. But I would read rule 34 and follow the instructions there.
As for pushing more weight with a given motor, you will need to investigate gears. With gears you can trade speed for torque/power. You will go slower, but you could push a mountain.
-Skye - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 21:33:45 GMT
Hi Skye,
It is my pleasure to totally disagree with you. (nothing personal).
But I would like to point to Rules 23 & 7. I do not question your authority, but you are right indeed, in earlier years the motors were mentioned with specs and even with a picture!
This season it is only stated *3 motors*
You Were right saying *I do know from experience that only the motors that come with NXT/RCX kits are legal. In the past, FIRST has ruled that the 9 volt non-geared and the micro motors were not legal* but the assumption that this will still be the case is based on air not on facts! (until last season okay, not anymore)
We are living now and not in the past, so we apply Rule 23 after reading Rule 7, we are confident and will not need to use a Rule 34 for confirmation.
I really like this and wonder if the community will join this discussion.
What can I say ? Oh by the way I also happen to like Chinese food.
by the way we want speed AND power no downgearing to get more torque, we want absolute brutal power with a big P we want to give the Dyno a real challenge
"there is absolutely no substitute for cubic inches"
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/17/2007 22:05:42 GMT
I agree that on the surface it would seem that any motor is legal. That was the way it was a few years ago when I asked FIRST about the micro motor. I was told no. The motors in the material rule were those in the kit not any generic motor. There was even discussion about the difference between the 'new' and the 'old' geared motor and that was decided in the favor of any.
Again, I do not know the answer. Experience says no, but the only way to know for sure is to use rule 34.
-Skye - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 22:42:16 GMT
No hard feelings Skye,
I just asked around in the team, consensus was NOT to ask and pursue using Rule 23.
Sometimes one must be confident, we are!
It will be challenging for the referees/judges. As long we will not knock the borders of the tables,(field damage) we're okay I think.
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/17/2007 22:43:36 GMT
Just as way of explanation as to my OPINION read QA8 here:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=15920
The rules only said motors, the QA said only the motors that come with a kit. I see no reason that FIRST would change their minds, but that is what rule 34 is for!
-Skye - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 22:53:15 GMT
Skye,
That was precisely the picture of the motor I was referring to in my earlier post. This is from Ocean Odyssey, so 2 seasons ago. Then it was totaly clear what motor was allowed. But that really is HISTORY.
I can add that not only the missions have changed, but more important the complete set of Rules.
Or are you going to tell me that last years rules are still valid. Then we can move arms when leaving base, that really would make life easier...
No sorry; history = history. We are competing in the Power Puzzle challenge and the Missions, Rules and Q&A's are clear by now.
like to get feedback.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/18/2007 00:29:56 GMT
D,
You have me very confused. The RC Dune Buggy motor is this:
http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/5292
The motor from OO was the normal RCX motor like this:
http://www.mozzarella.jp/mindstorms/shade/motor.jpg
These two motors are very very different.
But you are correct. QA8 was indeed for OO and not for PP. And we will not know the answer till someone asks FIRST. It is my GUESS that the answer will come back you can only use the motors that came in an FLL robot kits. Either the old RCX motor (of either variety) or the new NXT motors. But that is just a guess.
-Skye - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/18/2007 12:10:02 GMT
Skye,
You are probably right in your way of thinking. I agree and I think as well that First meant it that way. But they only forgot to write it down. The result of that omission is that they have to approve the exotic Lego motors. Because they can not rule out these so late in the season.
That would be too harsh on teams that were creative and totally within the rules. ( I see a parallel in the way First handled jigs last season, they wanted to rule them out, but they couldn't do that because they were simply too late)
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/29/2007 09:58:48 GMT
Team decided to use the *regular motors* after receiving so many emails / opinions.
(by the way it gave us only 8 seconds more time) We will enter the competition using the geared 9v only (3x 71427c01). The content in the reactions stopped our creative solution although we applied the rules, and stayed within, using no loopholes whatsoever. As somebody wrote in another topic : *what a bunch of killjoys!* .
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: 11/29/2007 13:51:08 GMT
Deleted - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/30/2007 06:13:58 GMT
I'm glad you made the change. Although my personal ruling would be to allow them, using a strategy in such a grey area is asking for trouble. Wishing you well in just two more days! (Boy does time fly). Good Luck!
-David (the kid) - Message by: PowerStackers 11/19/2007 23:11:21 GMT
Hi, everyone,
Seem like the wordings in the chat in the forum is getting un-professional. Please, we have FLL team members read the forum. We should post a professional example for them.
Regarding the motor use, we should consult with the FIRST for the final decision, rather than taking a survey from the participants (which we can only guess) to assume.
For my opinion and to be fair to all teams around World, motors should only be from the MindStorm kits. And the building blocks can be any legal LEGO pieces. It will be a fair game for every team to brainstorm themselves to build a good robot. Not using a better and more powerful part to win during the competition.
This is my 2 cents. Hopefully no one will target at me!! :)
PowerStackers Coach Chu - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/20/2007 00:33:09 GMT
Hi coach Chu,
thanks for the invitation.
If I used wordings in this forum that are in your opinion *un-professional* then I apologize. But actually I didn*t find them, even after reading all postings again. ( perhaps being a foreigner has something to do with that..)
My team, a veteran team has always been looking for loopholes, alternative strategies for missions. But we make sure that we are within the rules. And yes we use Rule 23 a lot. This is fairly common practise in FLL. It is a misunderstanding that you have to ask for permission. The forum is and can be used for sharing these nice strategies.
Further FLL is not fair at all, you have rookie teams competing veteran teams on all disciplines, but hey everybody, has been a rookie once, so that will balance the unfairness in the end. ( I can tell you very funny stories from our first entry)
There are so to say two schools in FLL. The *normals* that read the challenge and take the more or less obvious route, I think you are among them. And then you have the teams that are thinking outside the box. Not only in robotics but also in the project. My team will not consider another approach than the out of the box way.
We have decided to use everything and every strategy that is not forbidden, the big motors are in.
By the way, no targeting, only giving a clear answer.
These were my 2 eurocents
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 11/20/2007 22:22:44 GMT
Here is another data point for you D:
As Head Referee, I would disqualify your robot for illegal parts. Because I would almost certainly get complaints about unfairness if I did not. And fairness is what the FLL needs to have if it will continue. If you wait for the tournament to find this out, you are making a mistake now for your team.
This is just my opinion, and you probably aren't coming to my tournament. But on tournament day, my opinion is the last one that counts.
--Jack Gregory - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/21/2007 15:06:02 GMT
Hi Jack,
We discussed your posting in our meeting. The team thinks totally different, I*ll try to communicate that. The FLL is a competition that is promotes scientific-, engineering-, academic-, skills as well as attitude building. And it has a big FUN element.
As everything in life this game has a set of Rules and the Q&A as interpretation aid that makes Rulings as well, as soon as they are published. We are sure that the above is the framework that everybody should follow. Teams, judges and (head-) referees. That is the way it should be.
Further, the team will do almost everything to be different from the crowd. We will do acts during the day, do different presentations, and we go TO the edge in engineering. If something can be done in an alternative way, that usually is our first choice.
Jack, I personally think that you made a bad judgement in your last post. It is not what people may expect from a head referee. The *muscle talk* tone, I really think that is not at all appropriate. But I think the worse part is that you neglect the rules and force your own opinion on the forum. If you really take your volunteering function serious, you should have posed this question yourselves for judging at the Q&A department. The outcome would then be published, and depending on the outcome you would have had the means to make your call as head referee.
That would be much better than your *power play!*, only based on your personal view and not on Rules and Rulings.
There is absolutely nothing illegal in using these different motors, it just is in your opinion, nothing more. Stick to the facts please.
This team will do everything for a wow-factor!
For your information, we have once been disqualified in an official tournament by a over enthusiastic head referee ( for 15 minutes), but we won the champions award at the same tournament because the team was able to demonstrate that they were operating within the rules. Facts/rules/Q&A. Thus also showing that we really are teamworking and researching properly as well.
We hope to make it to Atlanta this year, perhaps a possibility to chat further on this subject. No hard feelings and let the games begin.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 11/22/2007 00:47:43 GMT
Doede:
I welcome your criticism. My tone probably comes across a little harsh in writing. Perhaps yours does too.
When I am at a tournament, and am faced with something that is not defined, not in the QA, not seen before, I don't have the opportunity to write to Scott and ask him. I have to make the call. This happens at every tournament.
That is essentially what you are proposing to do: to force the issue on the day of the event. I told you how I would rule today, in the absence of additional information. I thought you might want to be aware that your opinion of what is fair to all teams at the tournament just might not be shared by the Head Ref, not to mention 1000 other people at the event.
And, by rule, the Head Ref is the final call.
Now, you may be all proud and self-righteous to be fighting this fight, but if I were you, I would consider a backup plan should the electrical parts you are considering be declared illegal.
--Jack Gregory - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/22/2007 14:26:34 GMT
Jack,
I really do appreciate your last answer. We think differently about these questions, and it is nice that you are clear defining what would be your call.
Is it right if I think that you are in favour of skipping Rule 23 altogether and prescribing in detail the way missions should be done?
So no alternative actuating of missions, as they are often qualified as *unfair* by other teams and the public? If that is so, that will take out the creativity aspect from the FLL. As you know I think that out of the box thinking is most important.
As you perhaps know, Skye Sweeney has asked a ruling from Scott Evans. Scott came back with this : *His (Scotts-D) reply was that the policy had not changed, but that he was hesitant to add yet another Q&A since this was the first time this year it was asked* (end quote email Skye)
And don*t worry, we always have a backup, but most of all we have a Fun time! Just take a look on our bi-lingual site. We just held our project presentation and the conclusions were welcomed by the city counsel.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/21/2007 22:39:30 GMT
I was under the impression that the RCX didn't supply enough current for the buggy motors. (seeing that the battery box is not allowed) Or are you using converter cables with the NXT? Anyway I'd love to see a video of one of your runs after the season is over.
-David (the kid) - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/21/2007 22:48:07 GMT
Hi David,
At this very moment Scott Evans is being consulted on this very theme. We as you can read are sure this all is within the rules. Others have a different opinion. Personally I think that one must live by the Rules. RCX and do not use the brand with the pink rabbits.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/22/2007 23:55:13 GMT
David,
Re reading these postings I saw that I didn't answer all your questions. For all PP missions to be done you'll have to think that 6 "topbrand" AA alkalines (RCX) will be sufficient for 4-6 sorties (complete game - all missions)Using 2x5292 big motors for propulsion and 1x the "normal 9v geared motor"for the PTO. They actually last longer but just to be sure that they act optimal. the used AA's can be used later for other things as well. - Message by: GMT
Not sure exactly how to explain this. All of our programs that involve the robot turning are all of a sudden off. The robot is rotating too much with no change in programming. we have changed the data wires, swapped out the motors, tried a different NXT with no solution to our problem. Before we start changing the programs, any suggestions as to why this happened?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/31/2007 02:09:27 GMT
Did you change the batteries or recharge the pack recently?
Strong batteries will give your bot some extra speed that will goof up all your turns. Yes even if you are using a rotation sensor.
-Skye - Message by: nls4965 10/31/2007 02:39:43 GMT
We put it on the charger at the end of each practice. We even changed out the battery with the same result. The funny thing is the programs where the robot only goes straight are just fine. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/31/2007 04:13:21 GMT
In that case look for wheel slipage. Your mat may be more or less slippery than before causing you problems.
When turning, do you stop one motor and run the other, or do you reverse one and forward on the other? Have you adjusted power levels? Does the problem happen for both right and left turns? Have you changed the weight or weight distribution of your robot?
-Skye - Message by: homebotics1229 10/31/2007 04:08:50 GMT
We're having a similar issue. After we have used the robot for 2 - 2.5 hours, it starts acting weird and turns start just not working that were working fine 10 minutes earlier . . .
We have tried letting the robot sit and recharge for 15-30 minutes, but it still continued to be in a funk.
My theory is (and this is just my personal theory) that the robot, with lots of weight on it like ours, is affected by the reduced battery strength AND the heat from all the constant, non-stop running (this is in addition to it having computer brain which means it can have a mind of it's own . . . LOL . . . which is akin to teenage brain . . .).
This challenge has become increasingly frustrating for our team b/c they just get rolling on the programming and POOF . . .they have to stop for the rest of the day.
So, I'm looking for more realistic (and less magical) answers to help us resolve robot funk, too. Otherwise, we may be doing much more practicing on our project presentation and more wishing on our table runs :)
Thanks for the help!!
Theresa 8-) - Message by: nls4965 10/31/2007 04:25:57 GMT
Hmm, it almost seems like we have the oppposite problem, but same end result. The programming that we did on Saturday was at the end of a 2 hour session. Everything was working great. So we plug the robot in and when it is fully charged it over-rotates. I hear you about the teenage brain. Ok, teenage robot + teenage&younger kids =
fried adult brain! The real question is how to get these kids interested in this project. - Message by: CGMSC745 11/05/2007 21:37:32 GMT
How are you measuring the turns?
If the turns are being measured by time then changing battery power, changing amounts of dust on the mat and wheels, hair in the bearings, wheels slipping outwards on the axles etc. will all have an affect on the turns.
If you are using the rotation sensors to measure the turns then battery power level, motor heat and several other things should be much smaller factors. If you are doing high power turns, using the roation sensors to measure the turn, and then coasting at the end of the turn then power level will affect how far the robot overshoots the target rotation.
Another thing to look at if you are using the rotation sensor is exactly how you do the turn. If you use a MOVE block and the turn control slider (which just defines the radius of the turn and not the actual size of the turn) then the 'bot tries to keep the motors synched taking into account the turn slider setting. If you are using individual MOTOR blocks, but only measuring the actual axle rotation of one of the motors, then the turn can change a lot from run to run. As the battery wears down two motors tend to rotate at different speeds and to have different powers. If you are only monitoring the rotation of one of the motors then changes in the relative power of the motors will mess up the turn. - Message by: StormCats2927B 12/02/2007 16:28:48 GMT
We're having similar issues which is highly frustrating. In our case, we're using rotations (not seconds) and are trying to keep the charge between 8.0 and 8.3 (ours fails to charge to 8.4). Even on a full charge, we get inconsistent turns. Sometimes it turns more, sometimes less, and sometimes somewhere in the middle. We're generally pushing the slider all the way to the right or left for turns. Is that bad?
We changed the tires and have no wheel wobble. We're using break instead of coast. The robot is reliably constructed. No wheel slippage I can see. Changing out the motors altered the turns so that it randomly falls in a different range now so the motors you have do seem to affect performance. FYI, never use regular batteries rather than rechargables as the voltage levels change so much it makes programming impossible.
You mentioned measuring turns. The NXT automatically engaged the rotation sensor so we shouldn't have to do anything to turn 1 rotation each time and know it went that far? However, it definitely varies in how far it actually rotates. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/02/2007 20:21:15 GMT
You might want to watch two videos at http://www.fll-freak.com/nxt/nxt_index.htm
One is called Drive Straight and the other is Great Circle. Both will demonstrate that dead nuts accuracy is not possible with stock software. But it is an order of magnitude better than an RCX robot.
What this greatly suggests is that dead reconning is not the way to go. Using a combination of dead reconning and landmark navigation is your ultimate best solution. For that you need to learn to use the other sensors.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 12/03/2007 23:18:24 GMT
There is always wheel slippage. That is something you have to learn to accept. It is worse with fresh batteries and higher power settings because the acceleration is higher. The Move command does not ramp up speed, so you pretty much get full motor torque when you first start moving. The Motor command has a ramp up/ramp down, but it doesn't have the motor synchronization.
Odometry error is cumulative. The more moves you make the worse it gets. There are several tricks that you can use to reset your odometry error, but none of them involve using the rotation sensors.
A small turning error becomes a big positioning error if the turn is followed by a long drive. My girls changed a turn by only 1 degree and then drove 3 feet. They were shocked to see how much this changed the robot's ending position.
A Move ends when the motors rotate the requested amount. But the robot is not at zero velocity at this time. It has to ramp back down, and does so very quickly if the brakes are applied. Given time the robot will correct for the overtravel, but it is difficult to predict how long that will take, and it's not like you have a lot of time to waste. Plus the fast deceleration will cause some wheel slippage, and that cannot be corrected for using the rotation sensors.
Have your team do this test:
Put a Move 1 rotation, coast command inside a loop and have the loop execute 10 times. Starting from the same location
and mark the ending location for 5 runs.
Change the coast to brake and repeat for 5 more runs.
Add a wait 5 seconds block to the loop and repeat for 5 more runs.
Plot the results and analyze. This is something that all teams should do at the start of the season. You can't use a tool effectively until you understand how it works. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/03/2007 23:27:13 GMT
This needs to go into the UFAQ!
-Skye - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/04/2007 08:18:14 GMT
That is great information, Dean!
We've found that a lot of our "go straight" problems are caused by the inside of the wheels (the tires) rubbing against the body of the bot. The kids have to learn and re-learn and re-learn to use spacers and longer axles to keep the wheels from rubbing. - Message by:0222520A 12/05/2007 16:27:53 GMT
Spacers are also important to keep the track (distance between the left and right wheels) constant. Differental steer robots are very sensitive to changes in track.
how many motors can you have?
- Message by: icNRG 2340 01/25/2008 00:31:24 GMT
It all depends on your budget, personally I know people that have more than 25 motors.
But perhaps you wanted to know something different, I would recommend to check Rule 7 Materials:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=29610
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Folder: NXT Specific Questions 12/18/2007 18:55:33 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 21:43:05 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
- Message by: Baker Bobcats 10/18/2007 21:24:15 GMT
Are you allowed to use rubber bands to tie up the wires? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 21:43:05 GMT
If they are the LEGO rubber bands.
-Skye
I know that you can't use bluetooth for competitions, but we are interested in using it as a timesaver for our practice/programming time. I'm looking at some of the lower end (price range) dongles that are sold at places like Tiger Direct. None of the ones I have seen show up on the list of devices that Lego publishes. Has anyone successfully used any of these lower priced models? (I'd love to buy one in the $15 range rather than the $30 range for the one Lego sells!)
Thanks!
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 03:03:43 GMT
Look at this website
http://www.vialist.com/users/jgarbers/NXTBluetoothCompatibilityList
-Skye - Message by: Team4287 09/30/2007 07:55:17 GMT
If you are not computer savvy, then I would STRONGLY STRONGLY recommend that you get a Lego tested dongle (as suggested by Skye). The dongle that I used last year was a Kensington 33348. It worked great for me.
History:
When I replaced my laptop this year with a Dell Inspiron (built in bluetooth hardware), the bluetooth drivers that came from Dell DID NOT work with the NXT. After spending 6+ hours getting "alternate" drivers, I was finally able to get it to work.
And yes, the bluetooth connection is GREAT and without a doubt a great time saver.
-- Stephen - Message by: 401TechnoBotts2 10/03/2007 21:54:40 GMT
I thought I was reasonably computer-savvy... So far I've completely failed to get 2 cheap bluetooth dongles (purchased in the UK, where I'm based) to work, so I'm probably going to grit my teeth and shell out for a Lego one. At present my team is using a USB cable with a blue LED in each end, which they all think is marvellous!
My only reservation would be that bluetooth could flatten the batteries faster - is that an issue? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/03/2007 22:25:22 GMT
Running Bluetooth will indeed flatten the batteries faster. How much faster will depend on how often you use it as well as the type of batteries you use.
My understanding is that BT dongles come with one of two software drivers. One works and one does not. Sometimes the XP built in driver will work, and sometimes you need to install the drivers from the disk that comes with your device.
But than a blue LED USB is just the Cat's Meow!
-Skye - Message by: victormindstormmaniacs7141 10/08/2007 14:20:16 GMT
Update:
I went out and bought an Iogear GBU221WM Bluetooth dongle at Walmart for just under $20. I installed it using the provided drivers and it works great! No more having to plug and unplug the USB cable while programming.
-Christine. - Message by: lightningrods2109 10/25/2007 17:44:39 GMT
I finally purchased the dangle that ego sells for the NET. I have a DELL Inspiron E1505 and the computer is having problems when installing the driver. Go figure!!! Any ideas? I tried going to be site and down loaded the driver, got same message. Something about software written for Windows 95 or later but I do have Windows X. on my computer. I am puzzle but want to figure this out so the team does not spend so much time moving the robot back and forth from table to computer,
Silvia
My team is wondering if the LEGO rechargeable batteries are a significant improvement over NiMH AA rechargeables for the NXT, and if they are worth the investment - does anyone have any experience of both please? We've found a lack of reproducibility of turns as the battery voltage drops, particularly with alkaline AA batteries, and also with the NiMH rechargeables (but you can put the latter back into the charger for a quick top-up).
Catherine
Coach for TechnoBotts2 (UK)
- Message by: zap4702 10/04/2007 01:40:53 GMT
Our team has been happy with the LEGO rechargeable batteries. They don't give you as much speed as some other battery types due to slightly lower voltage, but they are quite consistent through the life of the charge.
You could look through the equipment discussions from last year, archived in the Forum, as I'm sure this was discussed last year as well.
Doreen,
Team ZAP!
My team is wondering if the LEGO rechargeable batteries are a significant improvement over NiMH AA rechargeables for the NXT, and if they are worth the investment - does anyone have any experience of both please? We've found a lack of reproducibility of turns as the battery voltage drops, particularly with alkaline AA batteries, and also with the NiMH rechargeables (but you can put the latter back into the charger for a quick top-up).
Catherine
Coach for TechnoBotts2 (UK)
Last night during our team meeting the NXT brick froze and would not turn off. We removed the battery pack and put it back in. Now it won't come on. Tried different batteries and connecting the charger to the pack, no luck. Tried pressing the reset button for 5 seconds, no luck.
Any other ideas? The NXT was working fine before this. Firmware is v 1.05. Who do you contact for technical service help?
Thanks for any suggestions - will be a long season without a functioning NXT!
Karl Krause
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/05/2007 17:28:37 GMT
You can call Pitsco the LEGO educational division. The phone number is in the back of your Coaches' Handbook.
One your pressed the reset button for five seconds, you now should be able to redowload the firmware. Have you tried that?
-Skye - Message by: robodogs2506 12/17/2007 17:21:34 GMT
Night before our tournament. We've run the NXT since 3pm (without ckg battery pack level) its now 11pm and the programs are working great (under weak battery levels) and the NXT makes a weird noise and quits working. So we called it a night, packed everything up and charged it for the big day.
We get to the tournament and, of course, the programs need tweeking...but the NXT won't take a download (does turn on tho and old programs are there). Error mssg NXT not connected keeps coming up. Panic ensues, the team changed out the brick, loaded programs on new brick and tweeked away - hoping to be ready by table time.
After the tournament we pressed both reset buttons but now get no response from the brick at all...it won't even turn on.
What happened?
'Dawgs - Message by: robodogs2506 12/17/2007 17:27:58 GMT
We've put in double A's - no work, plugged in power cord (altho it was fully charged) - no work - but...now it is beeping a soft digital beep - sounds like a soft version of my alarm clock. It is definitely not a "clicking noise" or a "soft ticking noise". We've had that before too.
Any ideas?
'Dawgs - Message by: Mindstorms Mayhem #33 12/17/2007 23:10:22 GMT
'Dawgs,
Since you have done a full reset on the brick, it now needs to have new firmware programmed into it again. The "clicking brick" symptom is an indicator of that. Plug it in via USB to the computer you use for programming it, and firmware should be automatically downloaded to it. - Message by: robodogs2506 12/18/2007 18:45:52 GMT
We're good! Thanks for the suggestion-it worked.
'Dawgs - Message by: Mindstorms Mayhem #33 12/18/2007 18:55:33 GMT
Glad to be of help!
What is the full battery charge on the rechargable NXT brick. We are always using our NXT so we dont have time to constantly charge it.
-Team 3069
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/07/2007 15:19:07 GMT
I believe that the battery contains 7 cells at 1.2 volts each giving you 8.4 rather than the 9.0 of alkalines.
-Skye - Message by: CGMSC745 10/08/2007 22:39:56 GMT
Skye is correct. The maximum voltage with the rechargeable battery pack is the same as what you would get with NiMH rechargable AA batteries, 8.2V or 8.3V,
Hello all,
I am curious, what is the difference between the NXT kit purchased through FIRST and the one you can get at say, Kids R Us?
Thanks,
Jack
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/11/2007 22:32:46 GMT
The big difference is that the FLL kit comes with a recharable battery and a different assortment of parts. There is a difference in the software help files but not in the "compiler" itself.
-Skye "Should be added the UFAQ" Sweeney - Message by: SmithRams3589 10/11/2007 22:43:36 GMT
Do both come with the same number of Lego parts (ie. wheels, tracks, pieces, etc.)? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 01:30:46 GMT
From what I understand the assortment of parts is different between the two kits. I beleive that the FLL kit has more and different parts than the consumer version.
-Skye - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 10/13/2007 00:55:50 GMT
Also, is there a teaching manual that comes with the FLL version? I seem to recall seeing that this is available separately for $43.
I am seeing the consumer version available for as little as $225 (not including shipping). Does anyone know the price of the FLL version?
Yolande - Message by:0175DA2B 10/13/2007 01:52:18 GMT
The educational kit contains fewer overall parts except for having an extra touch sensor, and it includes a plastic holding tray and rechargeable battery. We bought retail versions to use at our school last year. Cheaper, more parts, batteries are cheaper and easier than recharging, and plastic holding trays are cheap to buy. You can buy an extra touch sensor from Lego Education to solve the challenge if you want, but it's not really required. - Message by: SmithRams3589 11/29/2007 20:47:58 GMT
Below is the information I have received. It seems the Education version has quite a bit more.
#8527 LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT SET:
577 total LEGO elements including:
1 - NXT Intelligent Brick
3 - Servo Motors
1 - Sound Sensor
1 - Ultra Sonic Sensor
1 - Light Sensor
1 - Touch Sensor
1 - Single license copy of Retail NXT Software
Packaged in Cardboard disposable container.
*********************
FLL NXT Robot Set ( #9797 & #9648 & #0077):
1102 total LEGO elements including:
1 - NXT Intelligent Brick
3 - Servo Motors
1 - Sound Sensor
1 - Ultra Sonic Sensor
1 - Light Sensor
2 - Touch Sensors
3 - Conversion Cables ( used for interfacing with legacy motors and sensors)
3 - lamp bricks
1 - Rechargeable Lithium Battery Pack
1 - AC Transformer
1 - Copy of LEGO Education NXT Software, including Team License
Packaged in Plastic re-usable storage tubs w/sorting trays.
I've heard rumors that if you update the firmware too much it can "buggify" or give your robot bugs and take up some of the much needed memory space. Is this rumor true?
- Message by: Highlanders2689 11/13/2007 02:09:15 GMT
Is the above rumor true? - Message by:0222520A 11/13/2007 07:12:15 GMT
Maybe if you download the firmware thousands of times. I'm up in the hundred+ range and have had no problems. - Message by: hoffman1702 11/13/2007 07:54:26 GMT
Ok, this begs the question--should I be doing something that I don't know about? Why would you download the firmware?
I've seen nothing other than the program update that we purchased at the beginning of the season. - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/13/2007 14:11:19 GMT
There are at least a few reasons to reload the firmware.
1) For whatever reason the robot goes nuts. Often a reload will fix whatever got corrupted. Think "reboot your computer".
2) An update to the firmware is available. Use the Help... Check for Updates option to find out what firmware is available. "Think upgrade your OS".
3) Sometimes memory gets fragmented to the point you can't load a large program. I find (at least on RCX) the simplest solution is to reload the firmware at start again. I am not sure if this is needed on NXT.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 11/13/2007 20:26:08 GMT
I like to write my own firmware. Sometimes I replace the firmware with custom applicaitons. I was also part of the MDP program and we were tasked to do things like trying to see if you could break the software installation or mess up the firmware
Most people will hardly ever need to download firmware. - Message by: daVincikidz5782 11/23/2007 04:29:04 GMT
After updating to NXT v.1.1 our robot is just not executing our programs right. We updated firm ware and re loaded our programs but the lengthier programs just never finish or randomly skip blocks. Does anyone have any idea where we went wrong? Should we do a complete unistall and go back to the old software? - Message by: hoffman1702 11/23/2007 04:38:46 GMT
You might want to look at my earlier post in this area. We ran into this yesterday...it seems that if you use too many move blocks in a row (or something like that)--you have to insert a very short wait block or sound block (half a second) in between. This resets the move block and allows the program to run correctly.
It is a weird error and something I hope they fix somehow...there are some messages in the programming area that I think address the problem, but the above fix should work.
Cynthia
I'm guessing the answer is no but are we allowed to use the new color sensor on our competition NXT robot?
- Message by: Team4287 11/13/2007 05:30:48 GMT
If you read rule 7 - Materials will will find what is and isn't acceptable for competition.
And yes, you will be pleasantly surprised.
Stephen
CO FLL Coach - Message by:0222520A 11/13/2007 07:14:57 GMT
I'm not sure why you think there is a pleasant surprise, unless. Color sensors are not allowed. - Message by: Team4287 11/13/2007 08:11:18 GMT
Maybe I missed something here. Isn't the color sensor and the light sensor the same thing?
If is isn't then my deepest apologies in suggested that that the surprise was going to be pleasant. Because if they were, then they could have used it.
Fortunately, they do have the correct link to determining what is permitted in the competition.
-- Stephen - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/13/2007 13:52:21 GMT
There are in fact two sensors. The standars light sensor from LEGO. It is somewhat sensitive to different colors but not terribly. Then there is a color sensor by a third party that has special optics and filters. This sensor can tell you what color LEGO brick its looking at.
The LEGO light sensor is legal. The third party color sensor (as is ALL third party sensors) is not legal.
-Skye
Help! One of my team members spent an entire afternoon perfecting one of the missions, but forgot to save the changes to the computer. The only one that works is the one on the NXT robot. We need to combine this mission with someone else's and need to get the programming back on the computer to add to it. I read in the help about "uploading", but it uploads as a RBX file instead of as a RBT file that the software can read. When I try to open the uploaded program, it tells me that there was an error. Any suggestions?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/03/2007 02:39:27 GMT
I am fairly confident that you are in trouble. The NXT-G software 'compiles' the RBT file and downloads it into the NXT as an RBX. I am not aware of any way to go backwards.
-Skye
Folder: RCX Specific Questions 02/05/2008 12:31:12 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:59:02 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
Okay, I have a few questions.
1. Can the NXT motors legally be used with the RCX controller in competition?
2. If a robot was comprised of RCX controller and sensors but using NXT motors, would the fairness bonus be applied?
3. Has anyone already done this? If so, how was your experience?
Thanks,
Patrick
- Message by: icNRG 2340 02/04/2008 12:42:51 GMT
Why would you do this? what is the purpose? There is a broad range of 9 volt motors. Although I had a rather heavy rule-interpretation issue with Jack Gregory about using the so called buggy motors, the best choice in my opinion.
see here:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9c48b
We used two buggy motors for driving and they are the best! We did not use them in the fll competition because of the threat of disqualification, we just wouldn't take that risk. Read the mentioned thread. Although according the rules it is NOT forbidden you can encounter head referees making that kind of decisions on their own discretion.
Anyway, we will not be going to Atlanta but to Tokio ! And scoring 400 points is not that difficult this season even with "normal 9v geared motors"
see this link:
http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=4iYFUJPz0GE
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: Highlanders 5947 02/05/2008 09:23:07 GMT
Well, it's a long story, but to shorten it, Using the NXT motors would be very convenient.
As for using other motors, I posted on the forum a few years ago asking if anything besides the geared 9v was allowed, and I recall the awnser was no...
Patrick
-5947 - Message by: icNRG 2340 02/05/2008 12:31:12 GMT
Hi Patrick,
You make me curious, so tell the long story, please.
There is an opening to use other Lego motors, this years challenge has no prescription which motor has to be used as it was in previous seasons. We know, but there is the problem I mentioned in my previous posting. We decided not to take the chance. Only because of the muscle talk that we encountered. We still have another idea of "gracious" professionalism, hi.
One problem will arise extra and that is how the sensor count is made. In the NXT motor housing there is also a rotation sensor. That means that if you succeed to use the NXT motors on the RCX connected with factory standard (no modifications) Lego cables and connectors, you must observe Rule 7 Materials limiting the electric components.
Simpler defined, this will mean each NXT motor used counts as one rotation sensor as well.
Further did you read the thread in the forum mentioned in my previous posting? ( all of them, it is like a soap series, even although some postings haven been deleted)
Coach I (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
Folder: Table Construction 11/06/2007 05:39:16 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:57:56 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
Is there a standard distance from the table surface to the 40 Watt light fixture bulbs - Rob
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/10/2007 15:41:01 GMT
The best you can do is look at the plans for building a 'standard' table. Be advised that even if you build a 100% regulation table, the tables you compete on at a tournament may not be 100% regulation. Best to develop a strategy that allows you not to have to rely on light levels.
-Skye
I've heard, on a recent conference call, that there is a way to construct the table so that it is very portable. Can someone please share those plans with me?
Thanks!
Sue
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/15/2007 13:39:45 GMT
For some reason this discussion was started in the "Research Questions" area. You will find some info there.
- Gary - Message by: SmithRams3589 10/23/2007 05:01:42 GMT
I have a four piece plan. I can e-mail you the drawings if you like. - Message by: GallopingGirls4205 11/06/2007 04:06:14 GMT
Can I please get the design for the table.
TY - Message by: blueeagles94 10/27/2007 14:52:42 GMT
could you please e-mail to rphanu@gmail.com - Message by: SmithRams3589 11/06/2007 05:39:16 GMT
I am having trouble with my CAD system. I'll try to work on it later this week.
Jack
my group seem to have had the whole school that takes the rob class destroyed your table so we are in a bad posstion.lol
my group seem to have had the whole school that takes the rob class destroyed your table so we are in a bad posstion.lol
- Message by: robocomets4316 10/31/2007 02:03:08 GMT
ummm..................... - Message by: robocomets4316 10/31/2007 02:03:49 GMT
the classes in our school have destroyed the table lol - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/04/2007 06:07:47 GMT
Do you mean the wooden table was mutilated in some way, or were you talking about the destruction of the Lego mission models? Either one wouldn't suprise me these days.
-David (the kid)
Folder: Table Setup 09/10/2007 16:13:42 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:58:18 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
The field setup instructions on the FLL web site still show "base" being in the corner. The 2007 mat is not like that. Are there specific requirements on how to place the mat for the 2007 situation?
Fossil Fuel Fighters 171
- Message by: icNRG 2340 09/09/2007 21:31:21 GMT
Hi Ohio,
I don't know where you are looking, anyway I would check this link:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=29610
look at Rule 10
No Problemo!
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by:0222520A 09/10/2007 16:13:42 GMT
The mats fit much better this year, so you shouldn't have to worry about where to put the base. If there is a large gap around the mat you should check your table. The space between the walls should be 93" x 45".
The best solution is to not rely on the location of the walls. Use bumpers or light sensors to locate landmarks on the mat. Not all tables are the same, but the mats are very uniform.
Dean Hystad
We just received notice that our field mat has shipped. We're team # 108 for others trying to gauge when theirs might be shipping.
Ours has now arrived (8/2) and it's pretty neat. Warning spoilers below this line!
Nice thick plastic mat, not the tyvek stuff. Scene shows basically an overhead shot of a city including both land and water. Field mat pieces are - a house, truck, hydrogen car, dam I/ flood, trees, railroad and rail car, oil platform, power lines, wind turbines, power plant, uranium, corn, solar power satellite - should be fun!
- Message by: mcsl2007 08/18/2007 18:21:46 GMT
We're a Canadian team (#568), our parts arrived 8/15.
Two points:
1) shorted one technic pin joiner round (Peeron 75535)
2) possible build instructions flaw in attaching the front bumper to the truck - probably requires two additional 1x2 plates with 1 stud (Peeron 3794) - Message by:0236923D 08/18/2007 18:49:53 GMT
You may want to double check the build on the truck, we had no issues with attaching the bumper using the directions. Is it possible something is assembled incorrectly causing the issue described? - Message by: Legos In Paradise 22 08/21/2007 04:11:50 GMT
Truck Bumper Problems: The latest release of Lego 1X6 Brick has a longer stabilizer on 2 of the bottom tubes than previous 2X6 bricks. To keep the model the exact same length, use an older 2X6 instead of adding 2 more pieces. Or maybe FLL designed it that way? - Message by: Legos In Paradise 22 08/21/2007 05:02:56 GMT
oops, I meant 1X6, not 2X6. Use an older 1X6 brick instead of adding 2 more pieces. - Message by: flyinggreenmonkeys3724 08/22/2007 00:28:08 GMT
we forgot to order the field set up kit
if anyone knows how we can obtain it, please let us know - Message by: FloridaModirator 08/22/2007 14:13:08 GMT
Have your coach go back into the FLL Registration site and they may order one from there. Not to worry, there are still some available.
Laura
Hello,
We are wondering if the new HiTechnic color sensor is an allowable part for the FLL NXT robots.
Thank you,
FLL Midwest Coach
- Message by: mcsl2007 08/21/2007 03:51:23 GMT
...and what about the Lego/HiTechnic compass sensor? - Message by: bears299 08/21/2007 04:45:00 GMT
I doubt they will be allowed as long as the RCX robot is allowed, and it can't use the color or compass sensors. I think the rules will try to keep the RCX and NXT robots as equal as possible. - Message by:0236923D 08/21/2007 13:16:52 GMT
The product description and pricing information under registration says "FLL Robot Set (NXT) contains 1 Light Sensor, but 2 are allowed." Based on that and past rules for FLL, it seems extremely unlikely that any other electronic components will be permitted besides what is in the kit and that 1 extra light sensor. - Message by: FloridaModirator 08/21/2007 17:47:28 GMT
Check the official Q&A after September 5th for updates to what Lego hardware is allowed. - Message by: gearguards_140 08/23/2007 19:19:39 GMT
I have seen this asked in the past an the answer I saw was since they are not Lego (they are an OEM part) they are not allowed. - Message by: XBots1675 08/31/2007 20:54:14 GMT
I emailed FLL for the answer to this...I wondered if it was just another kind of light sensor. Their respons..."no":
" the "color sensor" is not the same as the light sensor that's allowed for FLL, and is not allowed."
I've built a table which measures exactly 45" across between the borders. I roll the mat out and it seems to be slightly wider than the interior of the table. I'll go measure the mat, but wondered if anyone else found this? It seems like it won't quite lay flat because of this (without curling on one edge).
David
- Message by:01D3B26C 08/21/2007 22:27:48 GMT
I just measured the mat and it is actually just the right width. I'll go back and check my table again. Perhaps there is a little twist in the 2x4s.
BTW, I built a 2 part table that is aligned with metal pins. If anyone wants to see more details, let me know and I can post them somewhere.
David - Message by: PISDFLL1357 08/21/2007 22:37:03 GMT
Yes, please post details about your table. I've been trying to decide how to build the simplest, lightest set of standard walls that are still reasonably sturdy. (We could even operate with just the walls -- we'll probably be working on the floor, anyway.)
Cheers,
James - Message by:01D3B26C 08/22/2007 03:41:54 GMT
I'll create a new topic to discuss the table. - Message by: hornets2488 08/23/2007 02:46:57 GMT
The mat I received is also slightly too wide. I have attempted to tuck the edges under the 2x4 table boarder. It doesn't lay as flat as it should.
Jenelle - Message by: XBots1675 08/26/2007 20:17:34 GMT
whereas last years NanoQuest mat seemed way too small, this year's mat fits just perfectly on our table. I hope you can figure it out and this doesn't cause you any problems!! - Message by: crazybots1334 09/03/2007 15:57:51 GMT
Should the mat edges meet the walls, or where the color on the mat begins meet the walls. There is that 1/4" border. Not sure if that gray border should be under my walls. - Rob - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/04/2007 14:52:00 GMT
No, the mat should fit within the walls. No part should be under a wall.
Laura - Message by: crazybots1334 09/04/2007 19:50:24 GMT
is there a building description for the table with dimensions with a light fixture above it somewhere?
Rob - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/04/2007 20:00:05 GMT
Yes, the instructions are at
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=23700
Laura - Message by: ECA Hawks 09/04/2007 20:39:14 GMT
Our materials showed up today and the new mat fits almost to the edge of the table frame width wise. The ends are close but there*s a little more play than the sides (width). Our mat from last year had a lot of play on the table...
Jon. - Message by:016742CC 09/05/2007 18:13:01 GMT
the mat i got fit almost perfectly - Message by: NLHF2007 09/06/2007 19:23:52 GMT
The coaches book suggests a simple 4 X 8 plywood for a
4 X 8 field mat, but the optional table instructions direct you to build a 45" X 93" table. What are the correct dimensions to build for? Thanks, Colleen - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/06/2007 19:58:57 GMT
The mat fits on the 4x8 table with room left over enough for the 2x4 side pieces. The mat is smaller than 45" x 93"
Laura
I'll start with a description of how I did a two piece table.
I cut the luan in half. I purchased an extra 1x4 so I'd have two more support pieces. So, each half of the table has 3 supports with the center ones being on the edge of the luan for additional support at the joint. Also, the side 2x4s are cut in half to match the luan. I used metal pins (out of 3/8ths inch rod) to align the two halves. I made an alignment jig so I could drill holes accurately in the ends of the 2x4s that join in the middle of the table. I used a 3rd pin which aligns the middle of the 1x4 supports along that middle seam. I bought but haven't installed yet, some metal latches that will keep the 2 halves joined tightly. I intended to mount those on the outside edge of the 2x4 borders. I realize one of those would interfere with putting my table against another one for competition. I might not worry about that.
One other thing I noticed. In one diagram, they specify 1x4s under the table for support. In a parts list on another page, they talk about 1x3s used for that purpose. What is everyone using?
David
- Message by: Legos In Paradise 22 08/29/2007 02:23:01 GMT
Our table is 3 seasons old now, with a plywood surface. I made it a 2 part to get it in the basement. I removed the long 2X4's, sawed the 4X8 (plywood) in half to have 2 4'X4' pieces, and use a new 4' 2X4 under the seam (the 4" side against the bottom of the table) to keep the table together with screws through the top (they don't seem to affect anything if you are careful to not under-tighten or over counter-sink the screw heads) and replaced the long 2X4s. Someone else built this table 3 years ago, and used 4 2X4s under for support so I don't know about 1X4 or 1X3. 2X4 make it very sturdy, but rather heavy.
Dan
One thing that makes the table so heavy and hard to deal with is the 4x8 plywood bottom. I looked in my local big box hardware store, and they carry 4'x8' sheets of polystyrene insulation of various thicknesses that seem sturdy and light. Then, it occurred to me that I could probably also use the material and hot-glue it down to the surface for walls and use 2x2 wood supports underneath.
The one major downside I can guess with this material is that it seems to permanently compress when pushed down on hard. And that is the action needed when using the snaplock tape to attach the lego creations.
I'm looking for comments on others' experience with using this material? Will it work? Is the snaplock pressure less than the crush pressure? Will the table hold up under standard abuse? What other light-weight suggestions does anyone have?
Thanks,
Wayne
- Message by: FloridaModirator 08/27/2007 20:31:16 GMT
That's a really great Idea! for the flatness problem, you could just put a piece of that thin wall board they make white boards out of, paneling or something. You'd have to use some special contact cement to form them up properly so it didn't melt the foam. I'm gonna try this. I'll let you know how it works out.
Laura - Message by: Squizoids2046 09/02/2007 07:14:02 GMT
Well, today, I did it. I used 1 1/2" polystyrene 4x8 sheet, onto which I glued a smooth sheet of 1/8" paneling. I constructed a bottom frame out of 1x2's and a standard 2x4 black wall. I used 4" screws to drill down through the 2x4 wall (after insetting 2" deep wholes), through the paneling, polystyrene, and into the 1x2 framework below.
Very solid construction and probably about half the weight. The thin panel gives the table a firm uncompressable surface. It worked out pretty well. I have to admit though that it is still heavier than I'd hoped, but at least I can carry it by myself.
Now, if only the 2x4 walls weren't so heavy. As I left the hardware store, I started eye'ing a fake plastic pre-fabbed picket fence that used plastic hollow-core "lumber" for the slats and posts. If I could find hollow 2x4 pvc material, that would be GREAT! Next time.... - Message by: 09/03/2007 01:47:41 GMT
Deleted - Message by: geewhiz826 09/03/2007 02:56:17 GMT
I remember seeing a transportable field table in use at Brickfest one year. It was put together by a Virginia FLL group that also did a presentation at the conference. They used the Scotchloc connectors to connect the side-rails together. However, the Scotchloc they had was larger and longer than the little squares we use to hold down the field pieces. I don't know where they got the larger strips. Since the side-rails are a significant portion of the weight in your lighter table model, perhaps a removable set would make it even more portable?
My team has started assembling the playing field parts. We noted the instruction errors that were pointed out in the forum and appreciate the tips, but are also missing parts. Has anyone else missed parts or am I a loner? I would mention the parts, but the list is such an assortment and we haven't assembled everything yet. In the past, when we at first thought we were missing something, it would turn up as more was assembled. This time, some of the missing parts are large plates as well as some small ones, and it is very obvious that they were left out. We have supplemented from a mountain of personal Legos.
Eric
Team 24
- Message by: GranbyRedBlox167 08/28/2007 02:54:46 GMT
Our team did an inventory check before building - we came up short on a few pieces too, including:
med gray 3 stud axle (4211815) missing one
black 1x2 tile (306926) missing two
black Technic Axle Joiner Perpendicular(4173668)missing one
black 1x4 plate (371026) missing one
Nothing big (and easily replaced by our LEGO collection), but I found it a bit disappointing, as my boys have many, many LEGO sets and we have never experienced missing parts.
Merle Yoder
Granby Red Blox - Message by: under pressure 1131 08/28/2007 04:30:31 GMT
We also found we were missing some pieces. Small bits that were also easily replaced from our personal lego collection - nothing that was too custom - but it sure slowed down the building process. Our Canadian distributor sent instructions on getting the missing pieces but warned it would be a two week + wait. We opted to use our personal pieces instead, the kids were too excited to wait to build.
Michelina Beam
Coach Under Pressure - Message by: bears299 08/28/2007 04:55:59 GMT
My kits arrive at my school the first week in August, but the students don't start until the last week in August. I always inventory the parts as soon as they arrive, and order any missing parts right away so that we have them when the students are ready to assemble the models. I was missing one part from the coal car, and it arrived last week. I don't feel that my doing the inventory early violates the spirit of the kids doing all the work. You might consider this idea next year. - Message by: The Flux Capacitors 24 08/28/2007 06:16:17 GMT
Yes, an early inventory would have helped along with sorting the parts into like types or colors. I don't know the scheme of how Lego decides to group parts together, but it isn't to make it easier to build. Color, type or use groupings would be much better. When you are building by directions and the pieces are hard to find and then you can't find some of them, major frustration, especially for the newbies on the team who don't know the fun that lies ahead.
eric
team 24 - Message by: 08/31/2007 20:42:14 GMT
Deleted - Message by: team168 08/31/2007 22:11:52 GMT
I am helping w/two teams and both field set up kits were missing small parts. One kit was missing 2 red 1x2 tiles and a black 1x1 brick, and the other was missing a yellow L-shaped brick.
All the parts are easily replaceable but it strikes me as odd that that such a random selections of parts are missing. The only thing that makes sense is poor quality control on the part of LEGO--something I never thought I'd say. - Message by: JeniousInDisguise2181 09/06/2007 04:25:02 GMT
Why do doctors like to operate on engineers? They understand when there are pieces left over after putting everything back together ;-)
Bob - Message by: ECA Hawks 09/07/2007 19:50:06 GMT
You guys are getting me worried about parts. I have all the new stuff for this year sitting next to my desk. I was going to let the kids open everything on Monday when we start our season...
Jon. - Message by: zap4702 09/07/2007 20:31:06 GMT
It helps *so* much to pre-sort the pieces before you let the kids start building. It is definitely worth your time to open the packages and put all the pieces for each model together. Then give each building pair the stuff for one model - all the pieces and the instructions. This helps them build faster, and you have a better sense if they've built the model correctly because if they have pieces left over, you know they didn't do it right.
Doreen
Team ZAP!
I've looked through the boxes that Lego has sent me and don't seem to have building instructions. I know some of the teams out there are way ahead of us on building the field set up but we were startinf Sat. and I can't find any building instructions anywhere. Is there somewhere that I can download them on pdf or something? If there is please advise I can't seem to find anything.... Thanks
- Message by: RoboraidersRed165 08/31/2007 03:00:38 GMT
You should have also received a CD with the field set-up kit. The building instructions are down-loadable from that CD. Good luck. - Message by: Teamin Red3067 08/31/2007 03:06:19 GMT
Right knew there should be a cd with the instructions but alas no, not in the box. If I can find it online we can get building on Sat if not, I have to call and have the instructions sent in which case we can't build until they get here. Thanks - Message by: Teamin Red3067 09/01/2007 21:00:33 GMT
Thanks for the offers to send the instructions folks. I was able to obtain insructions so we are off to buld!!
I've followed the discussion on setup kits with missing pieces. So, last night, I decided to review the TWO field kits currently in my garage (two separate FLL teams). I started a detailed inventory of Team2's kit when Team1 showed up on my doorstep and dove into assembly of their kit. So, I didn't have a change to inventory the Team1 kit.
When they finished, there were several pieces left over, among them a few little things like bushings and short axels and 1x1 plates, but also 2-3 rather large pieces. I worried about the team1's "quality control" and reviewed the assembled equipment but could find no place where this one big white 1x12 block could reasonably go.
Then I finished inventory of the Team2 kit and found NO missing pieces. Interestingly, there WERE a few extra pieces in the second kit, all small, and really interestingly, they matched up with the extras in the other kit. An extra orange and clear headlight stud, some small caps, etc.
So, I have the feeling that the standard package may come with a few "known" extra pieces. And as with any assemby line quality control process, I suppose it is just as likely that you get an EXTRA piece as you are to be missing a piece.
I'm wondering if others are experiencing the "extra piece" effect as well as missing pieces? I need to know how worried I should be about extra of the bigger standard bricks.
Thanks,
Wayne
- Message by: team168 08/31/2007 22:06:54 GMT
Yep, we have extra pieces as well as missing ones. Not just the expected small bushings etc. but also large structural pieces. Odd. - Message by:0222520A 08/31/2007 22:09:55 GMT
There are always a few extra pieces. Bushes and small transparent pieces commonly have a few extras.
I think we had two 1x plates left over. I eventually found they attached to the satellite solar panels. - Message by: hoffman1702 08/31/2007 23:05:19 GMT
We did not have any large pieces leftover, but were missing some pieces which we replaced from our stock. However, I later rechecked the plans and found so many errors in construction that I had my kids rebuild about 1/2 of the models--and we used up most of the big pieces, with just a few little ones leftover.
I thought that my quality control would be that I had 2 kids assemble each piece--one to check the other's work...Next year, I will have my kids sort the pieces and bag them for each project. Hopefully that will eliminate some of the confusion and allow us to get all the models together in a 2 hour period...Just MHO. - Message by: Team4287 08/31/2007 23:32:34 GMT
For field setup kits, I always build each kit up (and this is the only thing I do for the kids with respect to Lego building and programming).
I do this for several reasons:
1) I can be assured that the kits are built correctly and if they are not, then I am to blame.
2) If they are extra parts left over, I know that they are truly extra parts.
3) The team practices to correct setup kits. Note: Last year, I saw an excellent team flounder during competition because they had assembled their kits incorrectly. It hurts me to see that happen when it could have been easily avoided.
4) I enjoy doing it and it is the only Lego building I get to do all the season.
5) It better prepares me to assist in setting up all of the tournaments tables during competitions. - Message by: Squizoids2046 09/01/2007 00:30:24 GMT
Next time, I'm going to do two things differently.
1) Pre-sort the full set of parts into separate bags per item to build. The team only got half the items built in the time I'd planned, and most of the problem was the initial hunting for little pieces in the monsterous pile.
2) Next time I won't be as cheap in printing the instructions. I thought printing 4 scaled pages per sheet was big enough (you could see the picture easily), but I didn't realize that more important was being able to easily read the parts-list in the top corner of the page. :-( Zooming into the PDF file on the laptop was even better but impractical for a full team building different parts at the same time.
Finally, a LEGO request, but I sure wish the parts list and instruction part boxes listed more than the random part number. It would have saved me a ton of time if the word below each part said "4x12 blah" instead of a part number. I spent a good portion of the time trying to count the tiny studs in the 3-d picture. - Message by: crazycreators252 09/01/2007 04:02:16 GMT
Here is how I do it:
When the field setup kit arrives I open it up, remove the instruction CD, close the box and retape it. I then print and study all the instructions very carefully to provide guidance at construction time. At the next meeting, where all the kids on the team are present, I give the box to them and say "have fun". They do the work. As they dump out all the bags of parts on the field mat and sort the larger pieces by color, I briefly review each set of instructions with them to help with the sorting. They then decide who is going to build each mission model and start to build. When done (2 to 3 hour later), and they all go home; there are usually a handful of extra pieces. I then double check their work, using the instructions, looking for and correcting any mistakes and try to find where the extra pieces might go. - Message by: Squizoids2046 09/02/2007 06:57:32 GMT
Wrapup...my Team1 returned today to finish building and found the right spots for all the big left over places. I still need to review the models, but in the end, just the few expected small pieces left over.
Thanks for all the advice,
Wayne
On page 3, step 5 shows the front bumper support. Step 6 shows the rear bumper support, which includes 2 1x2 flat pieces with a single bump instead of 2. Those allow the bumper to be centered on the rear of the truck.
Page 5, step 9 shows attaching the front and rear bumpers. However, there doesn't seem to be any way to center that front bumper! The pictures seems to show it centered, but it won't connect!
David
- Message by: FloridaModirator 09/05/2007 14:29:16 GMT
There is a posting under the www.firstlegoleague.org with building instruction updates at
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=70
Laura - Message by: Team4287 09/05/2007 19:01:23 GMT
I also encountered this same issue. While the color for the front and back bumper is the same, the internal "webbing" is not. Switching the bumpers solved my issue and now both bumpers are correctly centered. - Message by:01D3B26C 09/06/2007 16:07:32 GMT
I have the same 2 gray pieces. The internal webbing is the same and I can't switch them and make it work. I looked and noticed the dam uses 2 identical gray pieces and they are also identical. Are you saying there is another piece they've given us that looks the same, but the webbing is different? That doesn't sound right. They don't specify two different pieces. I've been following lego instructions since the 70s (yes, really!) and they usually make some distinction when there are differences.
David - Message by: Team4287 09/06/2007 19:08:29 GMT
I sounds like that there "may" be different lots of those gray pieces and some of us got some where the webbing goes to the top (bottom, depending on your point of view) instead of stopping just short.
From my point of view you have three options:
1) Contact Lego to get a replacement piece.
2) Take out a little bit of the webbing manually.
3) Find another gray piece without this issue and swap them.
Personally, since it is not an integral part of any mission, I would take my dremel and remove the excess plastic.
Folder: FLL Gracious Professionalism 01/11/2008 19:21:32 GMT
Discussion: Observing gracious professionalism By: Black Nights 11 10/12/2007 17:14:22 GMT
We wanted to come up with a fun way to bring the discussion of gracious professionalism into each meeting. Our children know what it is, but when asked at competitions cannot come up with good examples from their team's experiences. We decided to play "pass the pig". When any member of the team does something ungracious, they get a small toy pig passed to them. Nobody wants to get the pig and it has really helped our meetings stay on track, and gotten the team laughing alot. We're now going to start "pass the star" when gracious professionalism is displayed.
- Message by: Hybrid Heros 10/03/2007 21:51:30 GMT
We started our very first meeting reading from the Coaches Manual what is meant by Gracious Professionalism. This seemed to put students in the right frame of mind right off. Now, hopefully they will remember it all the way through the season and when asked by the judges. - Message by: Bricksters2739 10/12/2007 17:14:22 GMT
Thank you for the great "pass the pig/star" idea. At times gracious professionalism is an issue for our team as well.
How not to be a Gracious Professional:
I am quite surprised at the QA55 entry. The answer should have included a statement about the stratagy being un-gracious and un-professional.
Someone (whover asked the question) just doesn't seem to get it - Why we are here in FFL and why we are doing what we do.
This is not a competition to outscore an apponent on an opposite table. The teams go to the competitions to do the best they can to get thier own high score. Stealing points from another team is in my opinion totally opposite of acting with Gracious Professionalism. There is no possible benifit with this stratagy. It is not win-win.
As a shared mission, a true gracious professional would help the other team by lowering thier solor panel if they failed to do it them selves.
Coach Dave
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/02/2007 18:40:43 GMT
Dave, FLL games seem to alternate between center missions that are cooperative and those that are competitive. This year it is competitive, as it was in the No Limits game. In that game, it was permissible to remove your opponent's ball from the center goal and replace it with your own. That is not allowed this year - quite possibly another lesson learned by the game design committee in No Limits when a few teams mistook the game name to be the rules. Limits certainly were stretched that year!
Ocean Odessey and (way back) Arctic Impact were also race-to-the-center games.
Mission Mars was a cooperative venture similar to last year in NanoQuest.
The one I liked best was City Sights. You had to voluntarily give some of your mission scoring elements (the affectionately named "Fruit Loops") to the other team. Granted, they were worth twice as many points to you if you did so. But no team could get a perfect score without the help of their table-mates. I hesitate to even call them competitors, as they truly were partners in that game.
Whether the center element is competition or cooperation, it doesn't reflect on GP. How you treat your opponent is what is important, not trying to gain the most points.
Some people had the idea to switch the pointer back on Day One, and QA 7 quickly quashed that ploy. (Alliteration!) Someone this week, who is just beginning to think about that mission, had the same idea. They both simply wondered whether the idea was allowable or not - and found out it was not.
I'm not sure whether Rule 28 would allow you to trigger the solar panel for the other side. Is that "meeting the scoring requirements" of the shared mission? If you take that to mean the score that will count for your team, then no it would not be allowed.
- Gary
Edit - I misread the question in QA 55. I thought it was a repeat of QA 7. This question is asking if you can undo a mission that the other team has completed. I agree, that is something that shouldn't be contemplated. - Message by: crazycreators252 10/02/2007 19:16:11 GMT
My point is that the question is basically asking "Can we steal points from the other team"?
The answer, besides NO, should have included how un-gracious and un-professional that stratagy would be.
Dave - Message by: robotmasters53 11/09/2007 09:47:34 GMT
I think the questioner was just asking what the rules and objectives are. If an outfielder reaches over the fence and "steals" a home run, would you say that outfielder is ungracious and unprofessional?
I set up a blog for the kids to share what they are learning. I'll be posting their research and comments on the robot development. I'm typing and moderating, but it is their words.
I was hoping others might post their team websites as well.
http://teamformerlyknownasnanoknights.blogspot.com/
Tammy W.
Coach team 1560--"We're B.A.C.K."
- Message by: oxfordenergy0234 11/09/2007 15:40:08 GMT
Hi,
Our team web site is www.oxfordenergy.us
I set up a share point team site that we share and store stuff internally, but that requires a loin. I will move some of the stuff from the team site to the public site over this weekend, as I should have a few moments, as the warm up meet went well last week! (and head coach Don is in Florida, so we all get a break)
Programming coach, Scott. - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/09/2007 15:52:10 GMT
i but that requires a loin
Wow! Not just an arm and a leg, but a loin??????
-Skye "You gotta love the spell checker" Sweeney - Message by: oxfordenergy0234 11/09/2007 19:16:00 GMT
Yes, it got me, who'd thunk that "login" would not be in a website spell check.. - Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 18:52:09 GMT
Well to give an international link check our site. We've got several years experience in our team.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: cglf631 01/11/2008 19:21:32 GMT
The team I coach built a website, too, and they won a judges' award for it at the qualifying tournament they attended. It links to a funny video they made that's up on YouTube...and from there, you can also link to other FLL YouTube clips.
http://www.freewebs.com/worms4d/mudd2007.html
An important thing on the site is information about their
"Fantasy FLL" tournament, basically a mail-in travel-free competition for bragging rights and wacky awards. The event is open to any team with a well-developed sense of humor. Sign-ups are still open...the posters here all seem to qualify ;)
Vanessa
Coach, Team 631
Mega Ultimate Demon Dudes, aka M.U.D.D.
Folder: FLL Marketing, Fundraising and PR 03/21/2008 09:29:49 GMT
Discussion: Comic Book By: 0175DA2B 09/06/2007 15:29:49 GMT
Will this comic book be updated for 2007-2008? Are any other teams interested in buying copies for recruiting?
Our local newspaper has offered to print 10,000 copies for about $3000 (30 cents each), but we would want to share that cost with 100 other teams. :-) It would be nice if FLL would step up and buy a bunch and then sell them to interested teams.
- Message by:01749AFB 09/06/2007 02:01:09 GMT
What a great price. I tried to print a dozen for handout to potential team members and it cost me much, much more than 30 cents apiece. Put us down for 200 copies and let me know where to mail the check.
Marilou McSherry
WhitneyKillerwatts127
WHSrobotics@aol.com - Message by:0175DA2B 09/06/2007 15:29:49 GMT
I ended up making a tri-fold brochure and using that for recruiting, with a pointer to our web site which links to the comic book. As rookies this year, I actually don't want to recruit too many people!
Tony Laundrie
nsrobots.org
My Apologies in advance if this message is not appropriate for this forum.
Team 53, robot masters have a revenue sharing service for students fund raising activities including FLL robotics team fund raisers. We design and host web sites (after summer long training).
If your team needs fund raising & if you can find small business owners who may benefit from quality web sites, we share 30% of the design & 50% of hosting (sharing continues as long as the hosting service is provided) revenues.
http://robotmasters.askfriends.org/Web_Design_Services.html
or
http://askfriends.org/web_service_page.html
I apologize if this is asked/answered somewhere else, but I've searched a bit and have not found an explicit answer.
Our first time team would like to include the FLL and Power Puzzle logo on our skirts. Can these logos be reprinted in this manner? Thanks!
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/02/2007 15:47:24 GMT
You may indeed use the FLL and PP logos on a shirt. Try to stay as close to the true colors as possible. You are not allowed to use the LEGO logo unless you get express permission from LEGO (good luck on that!).
-Skye - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/02/2007 18:20:48 GMT
FIRST has standards for use of it's logos, which can be found here: http://www.usfirst.org/community/resourcecenter.aspx?id=816
- Gary
How does one go about asking a corporation to sponsor your team or supply funds? Are there any resources available for information, or samples of writing grant request?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/19/2007 02:33:10 GMT
A friend of mine found that blanket letters did little. That the bulk of gifting was done through some human connection. Parent as employee, parent as friend to CEO,...
He also found that having the students beg appeared to be more effective. That having the students plunk down a working robot on the CEOs desk and doing their research presentation was worth a thousand blind letters.
I do not have any samples but I am sure others here do...
-Skye - Message by: bears299 12/19/2007 18:44:10 GMT
I searched for advice in the forums from previous years, and I found this page helpful:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?128@@.ee98105
Linda - Message by: Mindstorms Mayhem #33 12/19/2007 19:59:45 GMT
Hey, I like that prior thread with the helpful information! Can I just count all that previously written text as my response to this question from this year? ;-)
More recent versions of our fundraising brochures are also available at our various web sites:
- MAYHEM, Inc.
- Mindstorms Mayhem, the FLL team
- Mechanical Mayhem, the FRC team
--ken - Message by: 12/19/2007 18:44:25 GMT
Deleted
Hi, I plan to have a meeting with potential sponsors to discuss about funding our teams for the WF or OAC. Can anyone help us give reasons as in what way the sponsors will benefit by sponsoring our team? Our potential sponsor is a large multi national company dealing with property and construction. Apart from printing the name of our sponsors on our shirts, what else can we do? Thanks
-Firdaus
Coach of Drome Impalerz.
- Message by: Techno Warriors 02/20/2008 15:14:32 GMT
In the marketing area there is a trifold brochure that states the impact the program has on kids in terms of them pursuing degrees in science and engineering. Too kids participating in the program are more likely to volunteer in their community. The kids of today are the work force of tomorrow. They are investing in the future when they support FIRST.
Teresa - Message by: lawngnomes426 03/21/2008 09:29:49 GMT
I would love to see the trifold brochure, but I could not find it. Could you post a link to it?
Thanks
Heidi
Gothic Lawn Gnomes
Right now the button we have designed has Power Puzzle World Festival 2008. The WF is being held in April 2008, but the Power Puzzle challenge is the 2007 challenge. Which year is correct to put on the button? I was leaning toward 2008. Does it really matter?
Teresa
- Message by: SmithRams3589 02/20/2008 17:37:29 GMT
I would say 2007. You could always put 2007-08.
Folder: FLL Miscellaneous 05/11/2008 20:17:58 GMT
Discussion: YOUR VOTES PLEASE By: icNRG 2340 10/19/2007 04:52:36 GMT
ONLY 5 days left !
August 28th is the last day that you can vote for the RISbotics.
This Dutch First Lego League team from the RIS, called RISbotics (www.risbotics.nl), has been nominated for the prestigious "Eindhoven's Pride" award.
Eindhoven is one of the major cities in the Netherlands, and a major centre of engineering, industrial design, sports, and technical universities.
"Eindhovens Trots" (Eindhoven's Pride) is an annual award, initiated by the city council, and the winner is chosen by the public.
RISbotics has to compete with 4 very big and well known contestants who will surely generate loads of votes.
Last year's winner was a well known soccer team (PSV).
So, RISbotics, the underdog in this contest, needs your votes!
I think that you have to help these kids out, and make them win the award! So, please go over to the voting page and make a difference :-D !
To vote for them, go to the voting website. http://www.eindhovenstrots.nl/nomineren.htm
Select "RISBotics", enter your name (naam) and email, and click "stem" (which is the Dutch word for vote).
I estimate that they need about 7,000 votes to win, so let's give the RISbotics all the support! (they have campaigned during the summer and are doing quite well)
So please forward this message to every familymember, friends, neighbours
They need lots of votes!
Thanks a million!
Doede
Coach RISbotics
www.risbotics.nl (also in English)
Coach icNRG
www.icnrg.nl (also in English)
PS, I can tell you, from a very reliable source, that email addresses will not be used for anything else than this contest, but votes that do not have an emailadress will not be counted.
In the NanoQuest competition RISbotics won Regional- and National ChampionsAwards, further they won the Project- and RobotDesignAwards in the OEC FLL in Bod* Norway and were nominated for Innovative Design as well.
Your vote will make the difference!
- Message by: icNRG 2340 09/08/2007 07:30:10 GMT
RISbotics were awarded 2nd prize.
on behalve of them we thank every voter.
The citycounsel and newspapers said from the beginning that we were the underdogs. Well yesterday evening 3 other nominees, really big, well known organisations and a museum came in rank 5, 4 and 3.
The winning nominee the all new cities swimcenter, not only to olympic standards and very high tec and a recreational center wave bath in tropical atmosphere came in on the first place.
But the Kids loved it to be on a huge stage on the cities big market square and being adressed and honoured by the mayor!
BUT NOW A NEW CHALLENGE SUCCES TO YOU ALL !
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 09/08/2007 18:14:00 GMT
Congrats!! Glad I add my vote for you ;) Carla
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
FLL MI Team - Message by: lawngnomes426 10/19/2007 04:52:36 GMT
Congratulations! How cool for your team.
Heidi
coach, Gothic Lawn Gnomes
WA
In the spirit of GP, our team would like to dispense with our RCX-based Lego equipment. We would prefer that a new team get a good deal on what they need instead of maximizing our ROI for the pieces via other sales venues. It is unlikely that a truly new team will be savvy enough to cruise through this forum and it may even be too late in the season to help anyway. So the question is: do any of you know of a deserving candidate for such a sale? I'm sorry to be lacking more specific information about the inventory, but I'll be making a more precise survey real soon now. :-)
Oh, if there's a better place for this query, LMK ASAP OK?
- Message by:0236923D 09/01/2007 13:34:18 GMT
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sptbglegoclub/
They are restructuring their informal lego club for the new year. They are talking about possibly moving to JFLL & FLL and trying to figure out how to do so. They don't charge dues. I am a member of that list (for information), but live in Central Florida, so reccomending them is no benefit to me.
You may also check with your local branch of SWE or ASCE, they often do robotics workshops often for underprivillaged kids, and that may be another outlet to go with.
-denny coach of BRICKschoolers #108
http://www.hcecf.net/brickschoolerslegorobotics.htm - Message by: warriors5050 09/06/2007 19:41:15 GMT
Hi,
We are starting our first team and in need of equipment- we purchased 1 set at cost but could not afford to purchase the second set at the same cost. Our team is in GA, please email me at mmixon1202@gmail.com to discuss further. - Message by: Icebots4118 09/08/2007 02:40:14 GMT
I have a team that may need the set, but they may need the inventory. Could we get a pricing range for the kit? that would be great. Thanks! - Message by: lawngnomes426 09/12/2007 04:22:12 GMT
There is a start-up team (they tried last year) in Afghanistan. They are asking for help with registration this year, so I would bet they would love to have the RCX kit. If this is of interest to you, please let us know.
heidi@gothiclawngnomes.org - Message by: Ohms2846 09/19/2007 17:55:29 GMT
We have some RCX equipment that we will never use. If somebody would like it and is willing to pay for shipping from Pennyslvania, please contact Mark at alloway1@comcast.net
2 RCX bricks (One is version 1.0, the other is 2.0)
1 rotation sensor
7 Light sensors
9 motors
6 touch sensors
4 IR download devices (3 USB, 1 with 10-pin cable)
Many wires of various lengths
1 light
1 capacitor - Message by: Ohms2846 09/21/2007 20:45:12 GMT
I've been contacted by a club that wants the equipment. It is no longer available. - Message by: WATCH3000 01/16/2008 07:41:22 GMT
We are in need of RCX equipment. We started 3 clubs after great success with our robotics program this past fall and we need at least 3 - 6 kits. Donations would be great any anything would be appreciated.
Please contact me at iwork4him@yahoo.com
Thank you,
JoAnn Notle
Team 3000 - Message by: FLL-Freak 01/17/2008 14:03:16 GMT
Are you aware that RCX robots are likely to not be allowed past 2009? Please read:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/nobanner.aspx?pid=21400
-Skye
I read on tech brick that there is a secret message embedded on the mat...did anyone else know this? Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team
- Message by:0222520A 09/14/2007 21:07:30 GMT
Are you talking about the message spelt out when you put all the puzzle pieces from the mat together? All I can say is that no team will be successful if they don't know what the secret message means.
Dean Hystad - Message by: maccandcheesers1288 09/18/2007 19:03:20 GMT
What does it say? - Message by: maccandcheesers1288 09/18/2007 19:06:21 GMT
I didnt hear anything
MaccAndCheeserz - Message by:0222520A 09/22/2007 04:41:38 GMT
You're not going to either. Solve the puzzle for yourself. - Message by: icNRG 2340 09/18/2007 21:29:18 GMT
All I know is that it is a must for every team!
not only to solve it, but also to practice it!
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: highlands2 09/22/2007 03:13:29 GMT
Yeah that puzzle made a huge difference in our team's performance. It was awesome. - Message by: roboyetis1148 09/25/2007 19:12:13 GMT
Our team found it out, I can't tell u, but there IS a message, and that is may be important to u...try different solutions to try and get it off the map and onto paper! - Message by: 09/25/2007 19:17:07 GMT
Deleted - Message by: robo-raiders1147 09/27/2007 19:16:01 GMT
Yeah Have you figured it out? We have... - Message by: Energy Enforcers 10/03/2007 21:31:50 GMT
We have figured it out too. What a neat idea! Energy Enforcers - Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/08/2007 00:47:17 GMT
Hey I just can't figure it out!!! Can you help me? - Message by: supernanobotextremes668 10/08/2007 01:18:35 GMT
see message #11 on this thread (dated 04:32pm Oct 5, 2007 ) - Message by:0222520A 10/08/2007 07:15:24 GMT
If you know the shape of the puzzle it might be easier to solve. The puzzle pieces are all roughly the same size, so they are likely to lay ont in a rectangular grid. Using this infomation we can make guesses about the number of rows and columns.
Lets say that I have a puzzle with 6 center pieces and 14 edge pieces. What will my puzzle look like?
First I'll guess that it has 2 center rows of three pieces each. How many edge pieces would I need?
3 columns x (1 top + 1 bottom) = 6
2 rows x (1 left + 1 right) = 4
That gives me 10 edge pieces, so that guess is wrong.
Next I try 1 row of 6 center pieces.
6 columns x (1 top + 1 bottom) = 12
1 row x (1 left + 1 right) = 2
That gives me 14 edge pieces. Got it in two guesses.
Try this with the puzzle pieces from the mat and see if the information helps in assembling the puzzle. This technique works pretty well for puzzles with a small number of uniformly sized pieces. I don't recommend it for those 5000 piece monsters though. - Message by: brian001 10/05/2007 15:41:35 GMT
OK, for the very few of us that are here and *don't* have the mat... can somebody give me a clue as to where to look? Is there an on-line version of the mat and whatever else I need to decode this?
--
Brian Davis
NXT-G geek, but not a geek with a FLL kit... - Message by: supernanobotextremes668 10/05/2007 16:32:22 GMT
Brian:
Mat Images:
(http://www.techbrick.com):
http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/Lego2007/Resources/resourcesworksheets.html
Also: There is another thread that reveals more about what the kids need to solve:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?128@@.ee9b9f3
and a team called the Inventioneers provided an additional step towards the solution:
www.theinventioneers.com/puzzlepieces.html
David Levy - Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/09/2007 21:11:34 GMT
Hey are they talking about the mat we use for the competition or the power puzzle poster - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/09/2007 21:53:17 GMT
Competition mat.
-Skye - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/09/2007 21:55:07 GMT
Be sure to go to the techbrickwebsite. There you can find all what is necessary
http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/Lego2007/Resources/resourcesPuzzle.html
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: uberBulldogs66 10/18/2007 17:58:33 GMT
it says xxxxxxxxxxxxx (it is lame)
-Edited by Skye Sweeney acting as moderator 10/20/07 - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/20/2007 16:56:02 GMT
uberBulldogs66
Can you remove your entry please?
It is supposed to be puzzle for everybody, lets just leave it a puzzle.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: roboyetis1148 10/25/2007 19:16:23 GMT
agreeing with icNRG, everyone should figure it out, it is something that you should have ALL the time during the competition and something you should concentrate on too. good luck to the teams still trying to figure it out!!! - Message by: blackattack1146 10/26/2007 16:43:30 GMT
our team has already solved the puzzle, have had it for lilke two months u gotta figure it out yourself, though!!!!
-Black
Attack- - Message by: DarkMatter563 11/11/2007 22:02:09 GMT
The message really is a key part in legos.
Is anyone else here a team leader? Our team just signed up for the forum and I was very dismayed to find no topics for team leaders! so here one is. Any suggestions, questions or comments on being a team leader? Thanks!
- Message by: homebotics1229 09/18/2007 16:39:33 GMT
What's the difference between a team leader and a coach? - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/18/2007 17:01:16 GMT
Perhaps like a team captain (a student that is the focal point for the team)?
As my team got older, members started taking on more responsibilities for the operation of the team. The coach got to spend more time sitting than running around attending to paper work stuff. One of these members took on more responsibility and orchestrated brainstorming sessions, research homework, etc.
-Skye - Message by: homebotics1229 09/18/2007 17:57:36 GMT
Ahhh . . . yes, we are doing that, but didn't know it was called something special :) We had our three veteran NXT programmers begin explaining the basics of the NXT programming to the others that had only used RoboLab. They also explained the details of the using rotation sensors.
I'd love to hear other suggestions on how the leaders can take on more responsibility. . . - Message by: RoboraidersBlack165 09/19/2007 08:30:23 GMT
Well for us the team leaders actually run the meetings, split up the tasks, and designate other responsibilities. Our coaches focus on helping us with programming and help us look at problems in our programs. Sometimes they do step in if the team leader needs help. - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/19/2007 15:12:18 GMT
One team with strong team leadership roles 2 years ago was SMART from CT. Their contact info, from their profile, is
SMART
Send email to smartteam@stamfordrobotics.org - Message by: explode912486012 10/10/2007 18:57:28 GMT
as a team leader you still have to do work and extra for being team leader - Message by: robotronicdragons2769 10/18/2007 02:33:27 GMT
Why do we need team leaders? Why don't we just not hurt anyones feelings and just be a team? If you were chosen to be the leader would you think this? Please write back!
- the robotronic dragons - Message by: blackattack1146 10/26/2007 16:49:18 GMT
Our team leader trys to keep everyone organized and assigns members to different parts ofthe project ie; programming, strategy, and building!!!Also, he keeps us on task and makes sure we get our work done:)and i think that its good to have a leader(not to hurt feelings), but to keep everyone in check, and have your team pick the leader. that way they will feel comfortable with him/her.
-Blackattack!!! - Message by: The Crew 11/03/2007 00:47:07 GMT
In the case of leadership, the team coach is the one who should pick one, cause if you vote it often turns into a popularity contest.As for hurting peoples feelings, they should respect the team leader and suck it up. austin c. THE CREW - Message by: formerlynanoknights1560 11/19/2007 05:34:14 GMT
We don't have official team leaders, though several applied for the position of Dictator. :-) The kids have shared leadership roles like teaching a workshop on gearing, sessions on containers and subroutines in Robolab, and helping guide programming. Everyone has given at least two oral reports to the group.
You all were so helpful in helping us find some previous years playing mats that I thought I would try again.
Our group is growing by leaps and bounds and we are now looking for some more robots. We can not afford NXT's so we need 2 RCX 1.5 or 2.0 sets. If you upgraded to the NXT and need to get rid of your old sets please let me know.
Thanks
JoAnn Nolte
Team 3000
The Iron Fist
- Message by: B/TREK 10/08/2007 19:27:54 GMT
hi to all at the iron fist. i hope i'm not to late to help out in your pursuit to find 2 rcx"s. we have 2 (1.0 & 2.0) from years gone past, and you are every welcome to have them both. i have put batteries in them both and they power up. just let me know how you want to work this. and please no money.....
therese martin
therese_martin@charter.net
B/TREK
chief executive team administrator
One of our local teams didn't get funding until today and attempted to register. When they clicked the links for "Click here to register your teams" and "Register today", there were instructions on how to register, but no blanks where information could be entered. The registration site says, "As of Sept. 24, 6382 teams registered in the U.S. and Canada" but it doesn't say that registration is closed. I directed them to the e-mail contact, but does anyone have more updated info?
Yolande
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/26/2007 12:48:37 GMT
I was told two weeks ago by a FIRST representative that registration would close soon. That this year the available slots were selling out quickly. I do not know for sure, but I would guess that registration is therefore closed.
-Skye - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/26/2007 15:24:39 GMT
If registration is closed, I would suggest working with your state partner to find out if any teams are dropping out. Sometimes that's not known until they don't sign up for a tournament, but sometimes teams express interest in giving up their slot.
- Gary - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 09/26/2007 15:41:46 GMT
I just found out that as of this morning (9/26), registration is still open. The team coach (and I) missed the "Continue" button following the list of links to information because our screens required scrolling to see it. The team is now safely registered (whew!).
Yolande
I have a request for everyone that likes to post their teams on You Tube. Could you also post them on www.teachertube.com? There are several videos that I want to show my kids, but You Tube is banned by our district, as I'm sure it is for most districts. So the only way I can show them is to mail the links and hope the parents let them watch. If you post on Teacher Tube then schools can access it in the classroom. This would also be a great way to get more exposure for egos if kids can watch these videos in school!
Thanks!!
- Message by: brian001 10/05/2007 15:38:47 GMT
Huh. I wasn't aware of TeacherTube, and may try popping a few videos up there if I have something. Most of mine are personal LEGO creations, like the GBC, Packbot, a boat, etc... not, specificly, lessons, so I'm not sure how on-topic for the site they'd be. But a secure site for students and teachers away from the stuff that pops up on YouTube could be golden - thanks for the tip!
--
Brian Davis
Last season, Heidi of the Gothic Lawn Gnomes posted regarding an FLL team in Afghanistan. The coach is Filipino, and the team consists of Filipino, Afghan, and American members. Because of the lack of proximity of other teams and cost of travel, his team has never actually attended an FLL event. However, because of donations from FLLers here in the U.S., he has been able to register a team and teach his students in Afghanistan. In the midst of a war-torn country, he shares FLL's mission of teamwork and technical accomplishment.
Recently, I received an e-mail that one of the Afghan team members was robbed, including the laptop that the coach lent him to learn the robotics software. The coach did not ask for donations, only prayers for the student's family and safety in general. Your prayers would be appreciated.
If you are interested in knowing more about the team, please drop me an e-mail.
Yolande
kyjjpetersen@hotmail.com
- Message by: Woodstock FLL 10/10/2007 19:14:04 GMT
Sorry that you were robbed dudes. - Message by: lawngnomes426 10/26/2007 18:45:31 GMT
I am reposting my message here from another "discussion" in case others are following this one....
Help Afghan team!
lawngnomes426 - 05:04am Oct 26, 2007
Hi everyone!
I thought we might find some support for our adopted team in Afghanistan, the Kite Runners. Last year, both our team and theirs were novice teams. They managed to get an invitation to World Festival, but our government refused to give their coach and his family a visa, so they were not allowed to attend. If we as US citizens start writing letters to our congressmen about the FLL and the Kite Runner's team, maybe we can get them the visa that they need to be able to attend World Festival this year.
Would anyone like to help us help them? They also need Rosetta Stone English so that the students can learn English, if anyone has it that they can give.
Thank you.
Coach Heidi and the Gothic Lawn Gnomes
Hi my name is James and I was wanting to know if the red oil barrels in the truck counted for the oil barrel that needs to be in the farm for the corn to count or if you have to have the mainly white barrel at the farm.
- Message by: crazycreators252 10/09/2007 03:36:18 GMT
James,
The mission says at least one oil barrel. It doesn't say it has to be red or white or in the truck.
It could be one of the oil barrels in the truck if you want to do it that way.
Dave - Message by:015D2267 10/09/2007 18:48:13 GMT
Are you asking if the barrel can be in the truck and delievered at the same time? I thought I had heard that you cannot do that, that it would be considered "bundling". - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/10/2007 15:12:45 GMT
Nope, that would be "containerizing", which is legal. Bundling is when there is something physical (like string) holding scoring pieces together. If they are loose in a container, they are OK.
- Gary
The team I'm on has come up with the idea to put the truck on a ramp, and lift it to the farm, then leave the bottem part of it there.My question is, is that allowed or not allowed?
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/10/2007 15:16:23 GMT
You are allowed to leave pieces behind on the field when completing a mission. If you want it left there, make sure the ref knows it's not a stray object.
- Gary
Hi. My team just got started. Today we split up the work by having
people get into groups and we are going to rotate the groups with different jobs. If you have any suggestions on this write back.
- Message by: CyberPueoz2946 10/10/2007 20:42:23 GMT
Assuming you are first-timers like us, we divided our ten students into two groups where each got a kit. They went through the kit and divided/stored pieces in proper places. Then had tem start contructing the robots following the guide. We wanted to see how each group worked together. Students ranged from Grade 4-6. We also assigned tasks for the research part too. The group also keeps journals and we also have them grade each other on team criteria. Its been slow but we look at this year as a learning year for both students and advisors.
CyberPueoz2946 - Message by: awesome5188aces 10/30/2007 23:56:29 GMT
Ya, we're new to this too and we just split up and programed diffent missions. We meet after school and use our computer lab so we have as many computers as we need. I think this has worked fine for now but I'm not sure about when we have to put them all in order with each other. XD - Message by: Robotik8 11/01/2007 23:51:20 GMT
Hi Awesome Aces,
You might want to try running several of your missions to see how long they take. Remember that during a tournament round, you only have 2.5 minutes, including change-outs. So run some mini-tournaments now. Pick several missions, the ones that are most reliable, and run them back to back as if you were at a tournament. Your timing will improve as you practice. Work on running a few missions reliably with quick change-outs and then add more as time allows.
Muriel
For planning purposes, I'm looking for the map in digital form.
- Message by: crazybots4670 10/12/2007 02:07:17 GMT
If you go to this site, http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/Lego2007/Resources/,
you will find some maps of the mat. - Message by: Corning 10/12/2007 22:25:20 GMT
Thank you very much.
For the royal sum of $8.95, we grabbed the domain name, powerpuzzle.org. In all fairness, I let it sit all summer before jumping on it.
Right now, it is a pretty rudimentary website but, in the spirit of gracious professionalism, we want this to be a site where other teams can post information. Does your team have a website? Do you have a team picture? If so, let us know and we'll link to you from our website.
If you have any suggestions for this site, let us know. My son, William, is the webmaster. We hope to jazz it up a little in the next few weeks. He has a good command of asp and javascript so, if you have any ideas, pass them along and maybe we can incorporate them.
when we were place our robot to do the first task we saw that our robot claw is out side the base (like 5cm) .
we know that the rule says that the robothas to be inside the base at starting mode but the thing is that the claw is part int he parking lot and part in the base of course not toucing it
is our robot allowed to have actual using parts in the parking lot or not??
thanks
- Message by: lightsavers2634 10/14/2007 05:00:02 GMT
Check out rule 18.
(For ever start, every part of the robot must be in base.)
-David (the kid) - Message by: legolegends1162 10/30/2007 17:35:13 GMT
Specifically, if it is attached to the robot, it must all be in base. I believe you are allowed to go pick up a part with the robot, though?
Coach Michelle
Lego Legends 1162
I am working with a veteran team. The kids have used a variety of strategies in the past to get the robot to go where it is supposed to go ... line-following, touch sensors, wall crawlers, squaring off against a wall. In the past, we have been careful to keep our table clean at home, and we clean off the tires at tournaments. Maybe we have given our 'bot too sheltered an existence. Any thoughts on additional techniques or strategies to make him rough and tough and all-terrain? How can we prepare our 'bot for dealing with dust, warped tables, bubbles in the mat and all the unexpected hardships of life?
Muriel
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/16/2007 23:39:29 GMT
Muriel,
I had a team once that was getting top scores at home and failed at competition. The mat was covered in fine saw dust from the table construction the night before. We had no traction and hence failed at the table.
I have seen a robot that failed when its touch sensor in the bumper just happened to fall into a knot hole in the side wall.
I have seen robots get hung up on protruding nail heads under the mat.
I have seen spliters catch on wall followers.
I have seen one very low slung robot get hung up on a dip in the table. Wheels spinning high and dry with the belly against the mat.
I have seen robots get hung up because the table they practiced on had no lights.
How about competition fields not set up quite to perfection.
Or even tables that are horribly warped or mis sized.
Or the table during a snow storm that accumulated grit from the kids placing their robot holders on the table.
Or perhaps the tournament that was run on a partly cloudy/sunny day with the tables right next to a huge window.
I think there is just too many variable to try to account for all of them.
I do think that teams that have multiple tables to test on are better off than those that practice on just one. Also make sure to practice in bright light, and then go and turn all the lights off!
-Skye - Message by: CGMSC745 10/19/2007 18:17:34 GMT
Well, you could build a second practice table and then beat the heck out of it with a sledge hammer. Mash up the mat so it is full of wrinkles, drops some small rocks on the table then install the mat, pour on some sand and add a couple big piles of hair, put a brick under one of the table legs ...
Actually sounds like fun. I might have to schedule an extra meeting after the last tournament. See how our robot does, and how fast the kids can fix/change the 'bot and/or programs to still ccomplish some of the missions. - Message by: awesome5188aces 10/30/2007 23:40:26 GMT
hi im having a problem because our robot will not stop wiggling. what could i do to stop it from doing this?
thank you very much! XD - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/31/2007 02:12:31 GMT
Without a lot more information its hard to tell. Start by at least telling us if you are using NXT or RCX. Then describe the motor/gear/wheel system you are using. Next tell us about the caster (third wheel) you are using. And tells us what the wiggle looks like. How far side to side, does it get worst the farther it goes?
-Skye - Message by: awesome5188aces 10/31/2007 18:53:26 GMT
Thanks skye but i think we got it. it was becaues we were using only one wheel on the back so it was unstable. thank you for all your help anyways! XD
we would like to know if one of the robot oparators can bring notes to the challenge table to refer to during the robot game
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/24/2007 13:02:27 GMT
Read Q7.19 in the UFAQ at www.fll-freak.com.faq
-Skye - Message by: CGMSC745 10/24/2007 19:35:46 GMT
www.fll-freak.com/faq
Yes, you can bring notes to the table as long as they are not used to align the robot, as part of the robot, etc.
It would be pretty cool to make an arm band note card similar to the one quarterbacks use in the NFL for their play lists.
I recently encountered a team that had 2 challenge models built. The rationale was *Why should we build models for missions we don*t have time to work on?* At least they had one mission that was working. I wish I could say the same for my own (Vex) team. We are on iteration number 3 of the chassis, 4th appendage idea, and neither is connected to the other. Missions accomplished: 0, programming done: none. Potential points/match: 0 (with Vex, there are no oil barrels :-( ). There comes a point in the season where everyone can use a good laugh (or a good cry), and I think this is it. Here is my contribution to the cause * it*s a bit old and has been around the techie circuit, but I always smile when I see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvyupNXK-4A
The caption in Norwegian translates "There are many young engineers out there. We can*t wait to see them grow up."
Yolande
Hi everyone!
I thought we might find some support for our adopted team in Afghanistan, the Kite Runners. Last year, both our team and theirs were novice teams. They managed to get an invitation to World Festival, but our government refused to give their coach and his family a visa, so they were not allowed to attend. If we as US citizens start writing letters to our congressmen about the FLL and the Kite Runner's team, maybe we can get them the visa that they need to be able to attend World Festival this year.
Would anyone like to help us help them? They also need Rosetta Stone English so that the students can learn English, if anyone has it that they can give.
Thank you.
Coach Heidi and the Gothic Lawn Gnomes
- Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/01/2007 00:37:27 GMT
Heidi,
Do you have specific congressmen in mind? I'm thinking that if one or 2 people get multiple requests about the same thing, they're more likely to take action than if all the requests get spread to different people (I could be wrong here). If you have a specific name and address, that would be helpful.
Yolande - Message by: cglf631 01/11/2008 19:40:40 GMT
Heidi, Gothic Lawn Gnomes, and Kite Runners,
I ran across this discussion rather late, so likely any suggestions I'd have wouldn't help.
In the meantime...the team I coach has launched a small "fantasy" FLL tournament that doesn't call for any travel at all...they are emphasizing having fun and not taking everything all too seriously, by asking teams they can tell enjoy a good laugh to share some video, photos, and other FLL results in a mail-in/e-mail competition. Technically, it's a "local" competition in the Northern California region, but for this one "local" means "Planet Earth" or maybe even "local solar system". Both your team and your partner team would be very welcome in this group. If it sounds like fun, check the team's website at http://www.freewebs.com/worms4d/mudd2007.html
Vanessa
Coach, Mega Ultimate Demon Dudes - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 01/13/2008 02:46:06 GMT
Heidi,
I'm taking the liberty of posting an edited version of the e-mail you sent me a while back, which was brought to mind by the latest post. It's such a great story!
--------------
Dear Yolande,
I wanted you to know that we were able to get the Kite Runners their field setup kit, registration, FLL NXT kit, standard NXT Kit AND a laptop computer!
WE just had our State Championship today and the Kite Runners were able to participate by sending video of their project presentation and then talking with the presentation judges live via Skype. It was AWESOME! They were given the *Against All Odds* award.
Thank you for joining with us to support their team. Now, there is a family they helped (by doing their project) that would like to have their children participate. We may be able to help start another FLL team! How cool is that?!
Thanks
(a very tired) Heidi
There is a site where someone built a robot flusher, WITH INSTRUCTIONS!!! I built it, but the NXT motor does not have enough torque to flush mine. HELP PLEASE!!!
The site is: BattleBricks.com
Connor Henson
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/31/2007 02:13:33 GMT
Perhaps their flush mechanism does not need as much torque. You may have to research gears and gear boxes to solve your problem.
-Skye - Message by: crazycreators252 10/31/2007 02:42:03 GMT
Your toilet is most likely a different model and requires more force to push the handle to flush it. Try adjusting the float in the toilet tank to limit the water to say 1/2 tank so the flusher valve has less pressure on it. This will possibly make the flusher handle easier to push. - Message by: CosmicCrusaders 12/17/2007 17:10:11 GMT
Possibly a good chance to try some gear reduction to give you the torque you need.
How do you ask a question?
- Message by: northwest robotics 11/02/2007 02:20:05 GMT
How do you ask a question on the question-answer website? - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/02/2007 03:03:50 GMT
I am assuming that you have a question you want to ask?
If so, then you would be wise to read this first:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9b35b
After that, its as simple as finding the right section to post your question in, and asking it!
-Skye - Message by: bears299 11/02/2007 04:47:26 GMT
If you want an official answer, email your question to flltech@usfirst.org. You will get a personal response, and if enough people ask the same question, it will be posted on the QA page.
Linda
Hi World, I was wondering can you move all the parking lot pieces around to suit our plan?
Justin C. THE CREW
- Message by: lightsavers2634 11/04/2007 06:10:21 GMT
Yes, you can move around the mission models that start off in the parking lot. You could even start them out on the floor or a small table if you like.
-David (the kid)
Could someone who has both a retail and education NXT kit tell me the differences? I am paticulary interested in number of sensors and if the educational version comes with a test mat like the comercial version does.
-Skye
- Message by: zap4702 11/05/2007 20:43:05 GMT
I don't have any retail kits to compare, but our Edu. kits came with 3 motors, 1 sound sensor, 1 light sensor, 2 touch sensors, 1 ultrasonic sensor, the rechargeable battery, 7 wires of varying lengths, plus 3 conversion wires to use the old sensors.
They have a reasonable assortment of parts but very few of the new-style connectors and *no* hassenpins.
There's no test mat.
Doreen - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 20:46:00 GMT
Thanks.
I was hoping for a test mat. I am writting a book on line following for FLL and wanted to use the test mat that comes with my commercial kit. I will have to think of something else to use as a test mat!
-Skye - Message by: zap4702 11/05/2007 20:47:57 GMT
That sounds like a great resource - we'll be looking forward to it! Will you have it ready for coaches to use before next season?
Doreen - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 20:51:58 GMT
I hope! The last year and a half I have been very very vey busy at work. Little time to do anything. Last week, the project finished and I will have some breathing time. So now I will try to finish up a dozen projects that got put on hold including the 'book' on line following.
When I say book, I really mean an online document like the Coaches' Primer.
-Skye - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/07/2007 04:44:24 GMT
I am seeing several test mats in the Lego Education catalog (K991247 has a large oval and is $13 for a pack of 5). There are a few others that don't look quite as good or are more expensive.
Yolande - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/07/2007 04:26:50 GMT
Skye,
I know this doesn't have much to do with your question, but I've been gleaning info on the various versions for some local teams and thought it might be useful to bring it all together. This seems as good a place as any to put it. As always, author assumes no liability or responsibility for the accuracy of content yada yada...
Yolande
-----------------------
NXT Kit summary * Retail vs. Educational vs. FLL kits
Retail ($250)
Software: NXT with Robocenter tutorial -- building instructions for 3 models
Hardware: 3 motors, 1 sensor each of light, sound, touch, ultrasonic (one less touch sensor than educational version), more plastic pieces than educational version
Battery: No rechargeable battery included
Test Mat: Included
Educational Base set ($250 * Part K979797)
Software: None included.
Hardware: 3 motors, 1 sensor each of light, sound, and ultrasonic; 2 touch sensors (one more touch sensor than the retail version). Fewer plastic pieces than the retail version.
Battery: Rechargeable battery included
Test Mat: Not included
Educational Base set add-ons and alternatives:
* Software: NXT 1.1 ($49 - Part 700077) Robot Educator Tutorial -- 39 lessons (considered superior to the Robocenter tutorial)
* Homeschool Bundle Pack ($284 * part 979917) Includes the Educational Base Set and NXT 1.1 for a $15 savings over purchasing these 2 items separately
* Education Resource Set ($59 * part K979648) * 671 Technic pieces in storage bin with sorting trays.
FLL NXT Kit ($350??) - Available only May * Sept. with team registration
(This was reported to me by a Lego Education representative -- someone correct me if I'm wrong)
Kit includes:
* Educational Base set (worth $250)
* NXT 1.1 ($49)
* Education Resource Set ($59)
* May include additional materials, but I don*t know if/what they are
I'm personally recommending that the teams purchase the Homeschool Bundle kit plus the Educational Resource set. Though it's a bit more than the Retail kit, you get the superior tutorial, rechargeable battery, and additional plastic pieces -- best of all worlds, and you don't have to wait for May.
Coaches,
I am in the middle of writing a document/book on line following for FLL robots. Over the years my team has come up with a few different algorithms that they use. All are based on the single light sensor "Shades Of Gray" method. I was hoping to introduce a few other methods including two sensor "Straddle" methods, and the single sensor "Drunkard's Walk".
To prevent violating the FLL ethics guideline, the book is written as a series of experiments to run. They are designed to lead to a working line following robot only if they run the experiments and learn the basics.
What I would like is to hear if teams have come up with other methods that they might be willing to share with ME. I would then consider introducing the concept in the book via experiments.
I am also interested in your experiences with teaching line following. How did you approach the problem? What algorithm did you teach? How did you teach it? What kind of robot did you use? How did you help them debug the algorithm? ...
You can send offline to me at Skye@fll-freak.com if you do not want to share in the open.
-Skye
- Message by: formerlynanoknights1560 11/13/2007 23:24:41 GMT
My husband and daughter wrote a line following program that was really fast. The lighter/darker the input, the greater the corresponding correction. I don't know what formula they used--seems like it had something to do with a parabola...?
My own abilities in this realm are limited. Even the concept of finding the average light value to establish a threshold has been a learning experience for our team. We haven't gotten any fancier than having it automaticaly calculate that threshold and put it in a container.
I would welcome a tool like you describe to help them explore this.
Tammy
formerlynanoknights - Message by: Highlanders 5947 12/07/2007 06:02:38 GMT
Hi, my name is Patrick, and I thought this was an interesting topic. So here I am writing my two cents.
I*ve been in Lego robotics for four years now, and I*m thoroughly sucked into the programming world of Robolab. Now, before I say anything, I thought you might want to check out this video of some pretty cool line following bots.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3180671908341364722
As Tammy said, sampling light values is a priority, as to adjust for various lighting.
I*ve used NXT and RCX, and I would definitely say that the NXT is far, far superior for line following.
A few of the algorithms I had the most luck with are listed below.
1. This code actually came with the Robolab 2.9.3 patch. How it worked was by reading the light value, putting it through a mathematical sequence, then giving each motor a different power level depending on the number that came out of the sequence. So basically, the motors were being controlled by what the light sensor read.
I experimented with it by changing every single variable throughout a wide range.
So in the end, I had a *cheat sheet* of sorts, with outcomes of many combinations of variables, including combos that worked best when carrying a large load, some for going around corners, some for going straight, and many others. Like how fast it could zero in on the line. Oh, did I mention that it went PERFECTLY STRAIGHT?!?!? That*s right, almost no *waddling.*
With all the factors above, this was and is my favorite line-following code.
2. This code uses 2 sensors, and has two variations. One on each side of the line,
Or two right next to each other. It basically worked like the *if on light, go towards dark, if on dark, go towards light* method. What made it better, was the two light sensors were both running the same code (on a split task). Then the two tasks would *communicate*
With each other, so one would not over drive.
This made it much more responsive and accurate. But with the two sensors, it was somewhat *input hogging*
Any ways, that*s a couple of the methods I*ve experimented with.
And there are just a few tips I would like to add about working with light sensors.
1. ALWAYS sample the light on a known color of
surface to make up for differing ambient light.
2. Try to mount the light sensor at an angle to minimize reflections off the table.
3. Try to block the sensor from anything that could change its readings. (Like shadows).
4. Make sure that the sensor is not on the ground, keep it close to the mat, but not too close.
Patrick (team member)
What do teams do with their feild kits after the tournaments? I have bins full of stuff and would like to know what people do with theirs after the season. Thanks.
- Message by: zap4702 11/15/2007 18:05:56 GMT
I've heard that a lot of teams just take them apart and add the lego parts to their inventory.
Other teams keep them and use them for robotics classes or fun practice in the off-season.
I've always thought it would be great if there were some way to make old kits available to people/schools that are planning to start a new team, so they could have something to learn on before their first season.
Kits are generally worth a fair bit on ebay, so some teams sell theirs to raise money.
Doreen - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/18/2007 05:29:01 GMT
I used The Ocean Odyssey mission models in combination with the RCX to make a pinball machine. However we usually use the kits to make next years robot.
-David (the kid) - Message by: MOEbots 11/19/2007 16:03:43 GMT
I keep them to use parts for the next mission - Message by: LabRats887 11/21/2007 02:59:34 GMT
I have 2 sets each from Mission Mars to PowerPuzzle. This year the kids had a good time looking at them at one meeting & "remembering when". Then they tried to come up with a way to use them on the robot for this year's missions. The catapult from Mars was a hot prospect. We ended up not using any, but at our mini tournament a couple of teams pushed the molecular motor from last year out as a wave generator. I guess when the closet gets full I'll have to come up with something, but it sure seems a shame to take them apart. - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 11/28/2007 00:22:06 GMT
We still have most of last year's Nanoquest models intact. I wouldn't let the kids use them at first ... but someone needed "something heavy" and there went the truck-lifter, and someone else needed "something long" and the space elevator was just too tempting ... so I guess now we'll just wreck it all and put it in inventory. We'll keep PP for the spring training sessions.
Hi All, I was wondering if when you put the coal at the energy plant , if you could connect the coal together? Please respond soon.
- Message by:0222520A 11/19/2007 00:13:10 GMT
No. This question has been answered many times and is covered in the rules (you don't even have to read the length Q&A). You cannot attach any of the mission models together, and you can only attach pieces to the trees. And in the case of the trees you cannot attach two trees to the same piece/pieces.
Anyway, you don't want to be snapping the coal pieces together at the table. Your time can more profitably be spent doing other tasks.
does a piece of the robot have to end in the water?
- Message by: The Eagles 11/19/2007 16:05:25 GMT
What would make you think that? - Message by: MOEbots 11/19/2007 16:11:36 GMT
What are Wave Turbines and how do you build one and do you have to end in the water?? - Message by: The Eagles 11/19/2007 16:47:07 GMT
I think someone already answered this for you elsewhere, but they are anything you want to build that satisfy the mission requirements. It has to be moved TO the water. Take a look at Rule 12 if you don't understand what that means. - Message by: MOEbots 11/19/2007 16:13:08 GMT
What are you suppose to do at the end? - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/19/2007 18:48:12 GMT
Turn off the robot and go over the scoring with the referee.
- Gary - Message by: The Eagles 11/19/2007 19:31:48 GMT
Your robot can stop wherever you would like it to. - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/21/2007 03:01:37 GMT
Your robot could even flip off the table onto the floor and do a a little dance. :)
-David (the kid) - Message by: MOEbots 11/21/2007 16:08:40 GMT
thank you for the answers. It really helped.
Is the forum for coaches or kids? There have been several questions lately that seem to be from kids or at least very young adults. I try to read the forum on a regular basis but many of these questions, which are easily answered by reading the FAD's and Rules, are taking a lot of my time. I am a firm believer in "there is no such thing as a stupid question" but the forum is getting a little silly. Gracious professionalism, to me, means using this forum in a professional manner.
If my team has a question, we look through all the available resources first, discuss the question and then I post it if we are unclear. I have them handle a question the same way I would handle one with my boss.
Thank you to the people who maintain this forum and to those who have thought provoking questions and solid answers.
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/29/2007 15:35:29 GMT
The forum is for TEAMS. How your team chooses to use the forum is up to you. Some coaches prefer not to let their kids post. Others, after a discussion like you cite, will tell the team, "OK, that's a valid question. Who will post it on the forum?"
Part of the problem with repeat questions is that various parts of the country have different competition schedules. Most of the regionals in Michigan have been completed, and the State Tournaments are coming up Dec 8 and 15. Other areas compete later in Jan and Feb. As each team gets to a certain spot in the design, build and test processes, the same questions tend to pop up. That's why there are multiple threads about trees, oil barrels, parking lot, etc. If teams would take the time to fully research their questions, many of them would be answered without starting another thread. But there's always a new twist, so there will always be reasons for new questions.
- Gary - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/29/2007 16:31:07 GMT
The policy for the Forum (as specified by FIRST) is displayed each time you log in. I have repeated it here after my sig.
-Skye
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Thank you
We had our first Minnesota qualifying tournament a couple of weeks ago and I was looking over the results. The scores were very high, averaging 195 points! This particular tournament draws some of our most experienced teams, but this year 2/3 of the teams were age 9-11 (we divide teams into two categories based on age). Many of the young teams were rookie teams.
My team is using sensors and some mechanical navigation tricks to get near six sigma reliability, but they've found that even crude methods are adequate to complete any of this year's missions (getting them all done in time is another manner).
So other than being overly complex and the rules being muddy, what is your opinion of this year's challenge? Are the missions too easy or too hard? Are the mission models reliable? Do you like the new mat (mine has ripples)?
- Message by: GallopingGirls4205 11/30/2007 22:31:10 GMT
Personally My team has found it to be quite difficult. We are rookies, with no professionals in our area helping us. We are going to be happy to get 2 missions completed. We have no clue on how to get the sensors to work. This was one that was over our head. LOL.... - Message by: redrobots2969 11/30/2007 22:48:43 GMT
I'm interested to see how our Qualifying tournament goes tomorrow in Monroe, Michigan as I haven't seen many postings on the forum about results this year. I'm assuming there have been some 400 scores but haven't heard about that either. We packed our things up last night after performing one last grouping of presentation and robot runs. This team is made up of 12-13 year olds and most in their 4th season of FLL. They were able to finish all of the missions within the 2:30 minutes (5-15 sec. left) so I don't know if it is all based on the fact that they are more experienced or if the missions are truly easier this year.
Even in our 4th year we still did not manage to incorporate sensors to improve movement accuracy. They did use sensors for program navigation so the robot can run one program and handle 6 robot trips out and back with the use of those sensors.
Overall I'd say that the missions were easier than past years but definitely not a cake walk.
Our mat was fine other than slightly too wide but it held up nicely. The biggest issue I've noticed over the years with some teams is they don't keep the mat rolled up, printed side out and in a cylinder. Many roll it up and keep it in the triangle box which I can't understand why FIRST does that. Others roll it up with the printed side in and then wonder why the ends are curling up. Yes, double sided carpet tape helps this but they can help themselves quite a bit if they roll it up and store it properly.
Phil Martin, Co-Coach
Red Robots #2969 - Message by: The Eagles 12/01/2007 00:10:43 GMT
No mission is particularly difficult. I would agree that the hard part is getting them all done in 2 1/2 minutes.
The unknown is how fast you have to get to the Solar Satellite to be first. That has kept my team constantly thinking of how they could get there faster (which I think is a good thing).
Our regional saw a 400 with an NXT followed by a 397 with an RCX! - Message by: crazybots1334 12/01/2007 03:09:31 GMT
As a rookie team we found that simple worked the best. There are too many missions, and with the research project, a small team cannot afford to do complex stuff. Seems that there is too much emphasis on team work on the scoring that penalizes the teams that want to split up the tasks based on interest. Over all, not enough time to learn, build and practice. I can say my team got it all done and did ok in the competition, but not sure how much fun they really had. This competition is certainly not a recruiting ground for our high school robotics team, and does not teach gracious professionalism. The FRC competition much more effectively promotes and demonstrates gracious professionalism.
Crazybots 1334 - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/01/2007 06:21:26 GMT
I'd say the missions were easier than last year. Lots of easy pushing. There were two precision drops (arm bone and molecular motor) last year that we had a lot of trouble with, but we were rookies last year too. And the table of doom was very tricky too. This year we were able to attempt all the missions with reasonable solutions that had some hope of working. We didn't get over 140 at the tournament, but given infinite time to run AND everything working AND the planets aligned we could have acheived 300. I don't think even with infinite time we could have got over 150 last year. - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/01/2007 08:37:13 GMT
In the last 2 years, a difficult climbing challenge has been absent. Prior to that, there was mounting the ship deck to deploy the sub (2005), climbing the stairs (2004), and entering the crater (2003). Having to build a bot to conquer the mechanical obstacle often introduced constraints that affected other missions.
Yolande - Message by: lightsavers2634 12/02/2007 06:56:06 GMT
This year's missions are rather easy, but again the catch is getting it done within 2.5 minutes. This year's field seems to address reliability a little more then previous years. Last year you could get away with trying a certain program 3 or 4 times and achieve a perfect score on that "lucky run". But this year doesn't really allow for much of that.
Just my two cents
-David (the kid) - Message by: DarkMatter563 12/03/2007 02:05:47 GMT
Our regional is relatively early -- November 10 -- and I was surprised when our team scored 355-355-365. They've never done that well at a regional.
I'm disappointed that there are no missions that are much of a technical challenge for the team. There are too many missions done easily by dead-reckoning drive-out drive-back. I wish there were a few missions that required team members to learn to use navigation with sensors. I know that easy missions are needed for rookies to learn with.
Yes, it's a real headache to get all of those simple tasks done in the time allotted -- and that's another reason I don't like this years challenge as much as most of the others -- it's too much like work :) - but maybe that was part of the idea of this year's challenge.
Our mat still has ripples even after laying out on the table since August - but I'm glad it does - in fact, I wish it had more ripples just like the mats the team will encounter at the tournament next Saturday morning.
-Dave (the coach) :) - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 10:13:47 GMT
We were expecting a more difficult challenge this season after the Nanoquest. Last year it rained perfect scores, so our idea was that more precision navigation would be needed this year. But actually the difficulty in general is less. Only the amount of tasks is more. I think there will be lots of perfect scores this year as well.
I*m sure that we need a different type of challenge with the *easy NXT* machines, so narrow passages, climbing, wall following.
So that there will be a need to use sensors again
We need to see creativity in robots again, not only constructopedia NXT bots with a minor change.
My team builds robots using *normal* Lego Technic - no studless techniques, RCX driven and scoring 400 in this Power Puzzle in tournament conditions. To make it even more challenging we have 6 members Tagging during the match, what a sight!
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY ! - Message by: DarkMatter563 12/04/2007 13:31:52 GMT
We have seven members tagging -- :) -- that does make for a lot of fun and excitement, doesn't it! - Message by: TechHEds410 12/10/2007 01:13:10 GMT
We expected it to be harder this year to provide a challenge for NXT. As a strategic thing (ridiculously large Fairness Bonus), we used RCX to the regional championship (last Friday). This is our third season. In the previous years, we've aimed for about 300 points and not been sure of that until the last week. This time we were achieving up to 365 several weeks ago and we won the Robot game with scores of 295, 305, 315 and 335. So yes, we were really surprised that the missions are mostly easy pushing tasks. In our last round, the operators stood at the end for about 30 secs, having finished all the missions we could do - so we have scope for improving for the UK final.
We freely admit that we are using simple fixed axle and rotation sensor navigation - we tried using the light sensor but there is too much junk on the mat. We did discover that we can get a much more efficient and accurate result in RoboLab (2.9.3) if we write our own loop to check the rotation sensor against a variable, rather than using the in-built Wait Until Angle Sensor block. The team talked about that in the tech pres and it went down well. - Message by: PowerStackers 12/04/2007 16:48:28 GMT
PowerStackers Team have been tagging during match for last 2 seasons. We had 7 & 8 members. This season, we even have 9 members. We called it "Teamwork".
PowerStackers - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 17:33:30 GMT
In my opinion as a coach I truely find tagging a must. Okay teamwork was mentioned but also to increase awareness and the involvement of all teammembers.
Last season we had a 10 memberteam => 10 tagging, this year 6 teammembers and all of them tagging.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by:0222520A 12/04/2007 21:50:15 GMT
Or you could have smaller teams. Four to five is my limit. - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 22:09:48 GMT
Hi Dean,
I think it all depends on your own ideas. Speaking for myself, I find it no problem at all to handle a big team. But okay I have 4 kids and a dog everyday around. Not to mention my beautiful wife. So a FLL team is actually a kind of vacation.. To come back at the core idea, yes whatever the teamsize is, I favour tagging because each kid will be in the spotlights at the table. It is such an experience, I have one kid in the team who started so shy she would duck under the table, and has become selfconfident. A marvel. She has grown a lot due to FLL - Message by: bears299 12/04/2007 23:18:15 GMT
At a practice tournament sponsored by our state tournament, we were told that tagging would not be allowed this year. I think it was because of having 102 teams, and the crowding that would result. When I told my team, they immediately chose 2 members to run the robot, with no hard feelings (as far as I could tell).
Amazingly (I'm still shaking), my team won the Champion's Award at the state tournament, and has been invited to the World Festival. I assume from your comments that tagging is allowed there. If we go, we will probably use that method.
Now, you are probably wondering about my "if" statement. Of course, we are thrilled and honored to be invited. However, my school district has never allowed elementary students to travel out of state for events. Also, it involves time away from work and school, not to mention a lot of money, to attend. Everyone is still dazed by the situation, and the first thoughts were along the line of "isn't Lego supposed to be over now?" but today I have received a few emails from parents saying they could see the cultural experience value, and might be interested in going. So we shall see what happens!
Linda - Message by: DarkMatter563 12/05/2007 05:28:07 GMT
Congratulations! The World Festival is a great experience, not to be missed if you have the chance to go. We were lucky to go last year - each team member travelled with their parents. We didn't consider school rules about going since we made it an all-around family affair. We also had grandparents attending, and family members from other states travelling to meet us in Atlanta - some coming from California. (We are from Michigan) - Message by: TechHEds410 12/10/2007 01:14:17 GMT
We tagged team members in pairs in the last two seasons but this year have four members who participate in running the robot, but only two at a time for the whole 2.5 mins. - Message by: Botsquad888 12/10/2007 20:41:05 GMT
I'm a fifth year coach and have coached from 20 kids (divided into 2 teams) to only having 3 kids this year. From the original 20 kids other parents have taken up the coaching baton and have gone on to experience the "Joyous, Thrilling, Wonderful, Exciting Challenge" of coaching a FLL team. We now have three teams that have come from that first group and it is GREAT!
I must say that this year's missions have been easier than many in the past. I agree that the challenge has been the time factor. I have a less experienced team this year but they were able to figure out a way to combine missions to give a try at each one of them. We can do them all (if everything goes perfectly) and still have a few seconds left over (few, like 3-5), but that doesn't happen every time.
The disappointing thing is that we used no sensors to accomplish this year's missions. With the NXT the kids find all the adjustments they need within the motors and the program. The kids said it wasn't worth the hassle to incorporate other sensors when there was no real "need" for them. I read elsewhere a note from Skye stating his sadness at this fact. I must agree. One of the things I enjoyed was having the kids work out gears, ratios, torque, speed and such with the RCX, not to mention having to build in your own rotation sensor. My team did play with the idea of using a light sensor or touch sensor, but found it more hassle than it was worth because they could just use the built-in rotation sensor, speed adjustments, and curving ability to accomplish all they needed.
A suggestion to help re-establish this type of learning would be to design a specific mission that mandates the use of a light sensor; and a mission mandating the use of a touch sensor. This would require the kids to use those parts of the program and robot that have been easily set aside because of the ease of the NXT program.
I agree also with what has been mentioned about the climbing aspect of the missions. That is usually quite a challenge and it is always great to see what the kids come up with. Robots built to follow lines or push things don't always work when it comes to climbing over things. An all-terrain robot becomes a necessary part of the planning and this has always made my teams stretch their imaginations. There should always be something to climb!
I agree, as has been mentioned elsewhere that the Rubric needs to be changed and adapted to accommodate the new programming, robots, and the developing ideas of teamwork. What has been used in the past as the "rule" for these areas (programming, technical, and teamwork) should be re-evaluated and re-designed.
One other thing that must be mentioned. There are always rookie teams and more experienced teams and this will always be the case. As I look back to our first year I realize it was a disaster!! We were so green! But, somehow, we qualified to go to the State Tournament. We got "slaughtered" there, but we learned soooo much! For those new coaches and teams out there that seem lost or discouraged, TAKE HEART! Don't worry about it! Have Fun! Grab every opportunity to enter any and all competitions for it is there that you will learn much and grow! Remind your team that the "great" teams out there with their
"awesome" robots started right where you are and got better by learning from better teams and just gettin' out there and doing it!!
And remember, coaches, it is not about us. The Gracious Professionalism starts in the leadership and more is "caught than taught"
Just my thoughts so far for this season.
Coach G. Call
Team: Botsquad - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/10/2007 22:45:58 GMT
I agree that a light sensor challenge would be a welcome addition, and not just line-following, which can sometimes be replaced with pure odometry. The "deflect the white sign only, leave the red signs untouched, with random mixing" challenge from No Limits (2004) stretched the students in this way.
There should always be some easy challenges so that starter teams can feel like they "accomplished something" and some harder challenges to push the more experienced teams.
Yolande - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 23:10:24 GMT
i "deflect the white sign only, leave the red signs untouched, with random mixing"
And yet it was the rare team that used a light sensor to solve that mission. Most just ran one of three programs based on the random position that was visible to them prior to the start of the match. I know that FIRST was very disapointed.
-Skye - Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 12/13/2007 20:38:01 GMT
I would be strongly opposed to "mandated" sensors. But I would strongly support harder missions, and I mean much harder. Missions or rules that effectively made using sensors the only good way to solve the problem. Climbing is another good difficulty, as is size: having to be small enough to get to an area, for example.
I would like to see more autonomy, which means penalizing grabs much more highly, and which indirectly would increase sensor use.
On the positive side this year are the inter-dependence between missions. That clearly made them think and weigh tradeoffs.
--Jack Gregory - Message by: zap4702 12/13/2007 21:50:17 GMT
I disagree that a higher grab penalty will increase autonomy. It might hold true for more experienced teams, but for less capable teams, a higher penalty means they will take fewer and fewer risks, hoarding the few points they can get easily. And I think one of the main reasons that teams don't use sensors is that they feel their robots are more reliable using odometry - it feels risky to use the sensors if you don't really understand them, but you know what will happen with odometry.
The grabs were penalized much more this year, but for low and mid-scoring teams that I observed, the real result was that they didn't take chances when they were running the robots. I saw lots of teams this year that made the decision not to grab the robot and try a mission again, because they would have lost that 10 points and it would have made a relatively big difference in their ranking. I thought that was really sad. I haven't seen that in the past two years when the penalty was lower.
I also saw, in my own team and others that I spoke to, choices not to do a risky mission because it was not worth much more than the potential oil barrel loss.
I think the reality for most teams is that a higher penalty means less risk-taking, and therefore less learning all around.
Doreen - Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 12/13/2007 22:20:51 GMT
I think your point is good, Doreen; not every idea will have the hoped-for effect. But I think you make my point. They take the grab cost into account.
I wish that it was a Very Bad Thing to plan to touch your robot, and a Bad Thing to have to touch your robot. If a team knew during planning that a grab would cost them 100 points, they sure as heck would not "plan" to grab the robot.
I think planned grabs are the sign that we are not teaching autonomy. And planned grabs are what you get with weak penalties.
I haven't seen a lot of planned grabs this year, though every team seems to have a plan (either a grab or a no grab) for emergencies. That is better than the things I have seen in the past, where the robot had no prayer of getting back, and one of the team was stationed out to grab it and run back.
--Jack Gregory - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/13/2007 23:48:31 GMT
At the state level I think grabs were less this year. But I think that has more to do with where the base was located. Having it in the center makes almost all spots on the mat a straight shot out and back.
I know that early in the season my team would schedule in grabs to save time. Normaly these would be removed before the state tourney. It may not be elegant but it is a strategy.
-Skye - Message by: Chicnology 12/14/2007 02:47:10 GMT
Absolutely Skye.
When the base is at the "end" of the field...and grabs are only a 5-10 point deduction...and the robot is 8 feet away from the base...It sometimes makes sense to take a 5-10 point deduction in order to give themselves extra time to attempt a 40 point mission. They're strategizing.
As for this year's missions, I personally liked them. After a while you sort of "grow" to like them. I guess I have liked all the different year's missions and find each of them unique. Geez, I can say that about the project and the kid's robot too, especially after they named him "Bob". I'm weak I guess!
I do think a mix of easy and hard missions crucial to the continued success of FLL. I just love watching all the different methods the teams use to "attack" the missions, whether it's the rookies or the experienced. All very clever indeed. - Message by:0222520A 12/13/2007 22:22:18 GMT
Past missions had field models that threw off odometry. One had a field of loose parts (snow), another had a tilted surface (volcano). Next year's challenge should have something more like that. I also like when there are challenges that involve gates or the robot climbing on/over something. - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/14/2007 04:49:41 GMT
Other challenges had mission models that blocked several other missions, making "point and shoot" impossible.
I was wondering if anyone can think of a mission that "strongly leans toward" (as opposed to "requires") a touch sensor using the NXT. We used frequently used touch sensors to navigate (to detect walls & mission models), limit the extension/rotation of an arm, and provide program branching for multiple programs in a slot. However, we used the RCX, and I could see these functions becoming obsolete given the precision of the NXT.
At some point, I would like to gather some of these ideas and post them in the feedback folder where Scott is more likely to see them.
Yolande - Message by: LabRats887 12/16/2007 02:25:20 GMT
This answer was originally posted as part of another discussion, but it I would love to see these ideas incorporated.
On missions requiring a sensor how about these ideas:
1) Create a mission that would have to be done last (like the stair climbing in "No Limits" or the crater in "Mission Mars).
#1 Have a circle on the table outlined in a darker color and have something in it that needs to be removed from the circle (burning trees in a forest fire if it's Climate Change?). To get full points the robot must push/knock whatever is in the circle out while not leaving the circle itself. This isn't a new idea - it's a redo of the pop can challenge.
#2 Have a flat circle of a dark color that can be placed anywhere on the table and have the robot have to make a delivery to the circle. This would definitely be a variable challenge.
#3 Have a "maze" to negotiate through - either drawn on the table (probably would be rough for the refs), or a post maze or wall maze. That would require tougher programming - either a wall follower routine, or a bump and turn program. It should be a high point one. (Yeah someone could still use odometry, but hey)
I wouldn't agree to do away with all of the out and back missions. For young teams it is important to remember that they need some success. We forget sometimes how hard it is that first year for them to accomplish those "simple" missions, and how proud they are when they do. Leave a couple simple ones.
As to risk taking - isn't the point of the table missions to have the kids maximize their score? In that case isn't weighing the risks part of the learning? - Message by: tcc-2493 12/17/2007 07:44:30 GMT
As a rookie coach, I want to remind everyone of the importance of making the process inviting to newcomers. Our rookies (6 girls grades 4 and 5) got 310 points at their (1st round) regional qualifier while tagging the whole way -- all simple out & back missions, but very thorough follow through to make the missions work reliably.
I personally found the solar panel in this challenge to be a very difficult mission, and I don't recall seeing anyone at our qualifier pull it off. (We had only one team get 350 or higher out of 56 competitors). But I agree, it would be good to have some points (the last 50?) awarded for sophisticated algorithms or sensor use, rather than accurate pointing or clever bundling of pieces. It seemed like the difference between the 300 pt teams and the 350 pts teams was in the stacking (to save time), and I'm not sure that this should be what determines the regional winner.
Joel West
Co-Coach, TCC #2493 - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/17/2007 08:28:15 GMT
While helping rookies to feel successful is important, it's also important to have the full range of challenges (easy, medium, hard). When there is too much clustering of scores at the top, it's harder to distinguish between excellent designs and "pretty good" ones. Ranking the winners becomes more dependent on nervous fingers than on creativity and robustness.
As long as there is some general understanding what a "reasonable" score is, rookies don't necessarily have to be too disappointed if they can't accomplish all or most of the tasks. At our first tournament, our first round score was 109, for second place, and we were satisfied, not disappointed. The highest 2 scores of the day were 214 and 156, so any score above 100 was considered "respectable". At the State Championship that year, the high score of the day was 324 (attending were the 64 top teams selected from 300 teams), so any team above 300 was exceptional.
One thing I liked about that year was that several missions had "partial credit." Load a ball into a launcher and bump it for full credit, bump the empty launcher for part. Connect 1 or 2 modules in a straight line for partial credit, or in an L-shape for full credit. That way, less advanced teams could "do" the easier part of the mission and feel they'd "accomplished" it while the more experienced teams could stretch themselves for the harder part.
My concern with this year's abundance of high scores is that teams may feel discouraged in future years if the scores aren't as high, because they would be posting lower scores while at the same time, having better designs and strategies.
Yolande - Message by: hoffman1702 12/17/2007 16:40:02 GMT
This is all very interesting for a first time coach. I thought that the challenges were relatively simple, yet the challenge was in trying to do so many in such a short time--completely and without the penalties.
I thought partial credit would have been appropriate for a number of the challenges--uranium and corn among them...
The Missouri tournament had 38 teams participating (there was supposed to be 40 at the limit), and the two top teams tied at 290 points. I did not see their runs, so I can't say how sophisticated the thinking was. However...my rookie team had a first run of 275, leaving us the third spot. We were VERY surprised, and pleased of course, bu that gives you some idea of the level of sophistication involved.
For us, the ultimate challenge was being able to collect the power plant fuel and deliver it--and not get penalties for the oil barrels--within the time limit.
Cynthia - Message by: CGMSC745 12/18/2007 19:36:45 GMT
I posted this in another thread and will duplicate here since it is hard to keep up with all of them.
One easy way to increase the technical challenge, without hurting rookie teams too much, or increasing the complexity (and cost) of the table parts, might be to limit/penalize the robot for every return to base.
Perhaps something like 1-point penalty for the first return, 2 for the second, 3 for the third etc.
If a team can do all the challenges with just one or two returns to base the penalty would be only 1 or 3 points.
If a team has ten returns to base (which it seams like a fair number of the high scoring teams this year had) then the penalty would be 9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=45 points.
Rookie teams can still get good scores since the worst-case return penalty is roughly what a single mission is worth.
Advanced teams are now forced to actually navigate on the mat, use the sensors, get feedback from the field pieces, walls and lines, in order to get as many of the challenges done without returning to base. Robot complexity will go up, the use of sensors will go up, the complexity of the programming will go up (no "2 move block" programs which were so prevalent this year), even the design of jigs will go up since jigs will have to do more than one challenge.
With a "return penalty" the only way to get a perfect score will be to do a "grand tour"; all missions done with a single exit from base. That'll get the perfect score back to where it should be, i.e., nearly impossible. - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/18/2007 23:03:43 GMT
This is one of the best ideas I came across this year!
I really think you have to forward this concept to Scott Evans & FIRST!
I'm sure that a big crowd will be supporting this idea, because this way you achieve two things. There is no direct need to make the missions too complicated for rookie teams, and veteran teams can work on sophisticated programming and robot design.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 12/19/2007 17:10:17 GMT
I agree. Penalizing returns does a lot of what I think should be done, although I would want an autonomous return and leave to still be "free".
--Jack Gregory - Message by: JRE135 01/05/2008 16:50:28 GMT
Before advancing this idea too far, it wasn't the teams that programmed the return to base, it was required by the missions. "Power Puzzle" with oil, dam, windmills, solar panel, etc. left no alternative but to return to base. Past challenges required less returns. The penalty for touching has the same affect and doesn't discourage the use of removable attachments that are part of the learning, MO.
on - Message by: CGMSC745 01/05/2008 18:37:22 GMT
I agree, this year challenge had more deliverables and retrievables than usuall. None the less, a penalty for touching the robot (out or in base), would still be compatable with multiple deliverables and retrievables. Teams would just have to figure out ways of doing it that don't involve touching the robot. - Message by: GMT
please respond if have same issue:
Some missons are not landing in the same spot as the time/week before (we think it is the robot), it is geting on our nerves.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/02/2007 23:53:33 GMT
Join the club. Hundreds of factors combine to prevent complete reliability.
You might want to mention what hardware you are using (RCX/NXT) and what types of issues you are having for a better answer.
-Skye - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/02/2007 23:53:56 GMT
This is a rather common problem. These threads (and more) have some suggestions. Also, try searching for words like "reliable", "consistent", and "dust".
The Eagles "Rotations are not always accurate" 12/2/07 4:19pm
awesome5188aces "Designing an all-terrain robot" 10/31/07 5:53pm
dhystad "striaght line -- frustration" 10/2/07 2:08am
FlyingGeeks195 "Consistant Runs, Mats at home & at tournament" 12/10/06 7:58pm
Inconsistent robot performance:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?128@@.ee9959d
Yolande - Message by: blackattack1146 12/06/2007 18:20:16 GMT
when we have the two tables side by side will they still be the same width as one table side or two table sides?
thanks
-Black Attack- - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/06/2007 19:02:53 GMT
You will end up with a table that is 8feet by 8feet with the solar satelite in the dead center.
-Skye - Message by: bears299 12/06/2007 20:26:57 GMT
There will be a 2x4 board at the "north" edge of each table, so the span for the satellite is approx. 4".
Linda - Message by:0222520A 12/07/2007 16:46:03 GMT
The table at the tournament should be exactly the same size as the one you practiced with at home. All tables are built on a 4' x 8' (hopefully) flat and smooth sheet (plywood or other sheet product). The sides are made out of 2x4's which are actually 1 1/2" x 3 1/2". The dimensions inside the 2x4 walls is 45" x 93".
At tournaments two tables are put together. They are placed so the wall with the satellite touch, and a single satellite model is shared between the two tables. The south (base), east and west sides are left accessible (there is a compass rose on the mat to indicate these directions). If you have a mission where you need to run around to the north side of your table to retrieve the robot you better change it.
Hope that's clear - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/07/2007 21:48:23 GMT
Or, you can warn the ref before the match and ask if they will retrieve the robot for you. Our team had very short arms last year, and they needed the ref to pick up the bot several times. If you ask FIRST, the long-armed refs are usually able to help you. You will be out of luck if you are taller than the ref!
Just to get an idea of the scoring in this years Power Puzzle.
Please reply in the right sub topic.
- Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:40:36 GMT
The 2000 register. Teams that have scored 5x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic. - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:40:59 GMT
The 1600 register. Teams that have scored 4x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic. - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:41:19 GMT
The 1200 register. Teams that have scored 3x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic. - Message by: Mindstorms Mayhem #33 12/12/2007 04:14:48 GMT
In the New Hampshire State Tournament held on 8 December 2007, Mindstorms Mayhem scored 400 points in three of their six table rounds, winning the 1st Place Performance Award in the process. Their sequence of scores were as follows:
- 398 - Qualifying Round #1
- 400 - Qualifying Round #2
- 400 - Qualifying Round #3
- 394 - Quarterfinals
- 397 - Semifinals
- 400 - Finals
We hope to have video of at least one of the 400-point rounds posted on the team web site by December 21.
The 2nd Place Performance Award Team, the Renewable Energy Hogs, also scored 400 points in one of their table rounds, the Quarterfinals. The Renewable Energy Hogs were the 2nd seed going into the playoff rounds, with all three of their qualifying rounds in the 380s.
The New Hampshire State Tournament featured many high-scoring teams; there were 7 teams with scores over 350 and 12 teams with scores over 300. A separate post by Skye Sweeney provides the full awards list from the NH State Tournament. - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/12/2007 11:51:19 GMT
Wow, that sure is an accomplishment, congrats!
There is a lot of experience in the M&M team and that is showing in these scores. - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:41:38 GMT
The 800 register. Teams that have scored 2x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic. - Message by: robotmasters53 01/15/2008 03:31:25 GMT
Well, our competition allowed only 3 rounds. Team 53 Robot Masters got 2 perfect runs. Their first run, they had trouble pulling the red truck in all the way and resulted in 345. Kids figured it was the new tire/mat in combination with low battery. Anyway, here is the video link of the 3rd run. Fastforward for about a minute.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZFMFzeO_Uxg - Message by: icNRG 2340 01/15/2008 18:05:25 GMT
Hi California,
Very good building and programming I see on the video!
But, when looking carefully I saw a problem. The sattelite robot (the pullback/windup) is released to early. The Robot has not left Base completely, so it is in conflict with rule 20:
20. Transition Mode. A freshly started robot is in transition mode until it*s out of Base. In transition mode, the robot is not allowed to do anything but leave Base, taking along any objects it was already in contact with. It is not allowed to lose or gain contact with anything at all until it is in autonomy mode (out of Base). Touching the robot in transition mode forces it into preparation mode, and you maintain control of any objects involved.
I only write this out of a positive angle, because if you change the programming just a little you have an amazing combination of robot building and programming, my compliments.
My advice to your team would be, fix it because when seen by a referee you loose these points...
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: tanrobotics 01/15/2008 18:24:48 GMT
Hi!
Congratulations and great job.
However, (while we are in the aspects of constructive criticisms), you might want to take a look at Q&A 80. I notice that the Solar Panel is supported by your frame. Q&A 80 states that you might not get the points for it depending upon the referee's decision at the match.
Paul Tan. - Message by: robotmasters53 01/15/2008 20:34:28 GMT
Thanks for great feedback. We also had similar concerns. Our robot doesn't turn right (which is our release move) until it is completely out of base. Our wind-up is shorter than the robot so it is also out of base. We also maintain contact between the two with a flexible axle which probably is not obvious from the video. The flexible axle also pushes the wind up forward so that it is also out of base when our robot is ready to turn. Two solid axels keep the wind-up from shooting out while the robot is in transit mode. We'll re-inspect and make sure the early release doesn't happen.
As for QA80, if we remove our frame, the solar panel will catch the edge of the roof. The frame is also not touching the floor (I'm not sure if it matters). The solar panel can slide out of our frame to comply with the no bundling rule.
Thanks
Kee Sup Kim, Coach
Team 53 Robot Masters - Message by:0222520A 01/16/2008 00:53:06 GMT
I don't see any conflict with Q&A 80. The roof of the house is obviously supporting the weight of the panel, and quite a bit more weight as well. - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:41:59 GMT
The 400 register. Teams that have scored 1x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic. - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:44:42 GMT
Team: icNRG - I see ENERGY !
Teamnr: 2340
City: Eindhoven
State: n/a
Country: the Netherlands - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/06/2007 04:00:54 GMT
Congratulations! Do you have a video?
Diane - Message by: lightsavers2634 01/21/2008 01:38:06 GMT
Finally had our state tournament!
Team: Light savers
Teamnr: 2634
City: Le Mars (ice cream capital of the world)
State: Iowa
Country: United states
It was enough for the Robot Performance award, and we ended up getting the Champion's award as well. (Iowa won't be sending us to Antlanta due to a lack of slots.)
-David (the kid) - Message by: tanrobotics 12/09/2007 15:57:13 GMT
Team: SCS Penguins
Teamnumber: 543
City: Toronto
State/Province: Ontario
Country: Canada
400 Run on the FINAL round, just beating out the opposing team (who did a really great job scoring 395).
Our team NEVER scored a 400, even in practice. They just had to choose the very last round of the State/Provincial Championships to rise up to the occassion! I guess the team really wanted to go back to Atlanta this year!
The SCS Penguins from St. Clement's School are looking forward to meeting everyone in Atlanta again!
Paul Tan. - Message by: legoaces44 01/16/2008 05:32:51 GMT
The Lego Aces are very proud of scoring a perfect 400 at the Ohio State Championship event! But the other teams at the competition were so good that a perfect score was only good enough for 3rd place in robot performance, just out of the trophy placings. There were two other teams at the event with perfect scores and better 2nd scores.
(Cougars 400-400-400 and Energizer Monkeys 400-399-399) Maybe we'll get some interesting challenges next year to separate the pack and provide a range of creative challenges that inspire new designs and programming. It would be great to see some missions that require tricky maneuvering or creative use of sensors instead of the endless list of retreivables/deliverables. that could all be done with simple odometry. Our team scored 400 without the need for sensors.
Enjoy,
Thomas Miller
coach of the Lego Aces - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/05/2007 03:28:19 GMT
Many tournaments only have 3 rounds; they do not have a playoff.
- Gary - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/05/2007 10:45:27 GMT
Gary,
right that means they only can enter the 1200/800/400 registers. BUT for the 1200 register it would be nice if they state that it is actually 3 out of 3 so 100% score!
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: 12/15/2007 13:21:04 GMT
Deleted - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/16/2007 14:17:55 GMT
At least two teams scored perfect rounds at the Flint Michigan State Tournament on 12/15. If I get a complete listing of results I'll add the team numbers so they can be recognized. One team that did it was 334 Power Peeps - with 10-15 seconds to spare at the end of the round!
- Gary - Message by: CGMSC745 12/18/2007 00:41:52 GMT
I believe two teams both had three perfect runs (all the rounds that the tournament runs) at the Indiana state tournament. So they tied for robot performance with total run scores of 1200. - Message by: frostphantoms 12/19/2007 08:12:24 GMT
Guess we are in the Missed-it-club. We were hoping for a 400 at a tournament but were very happy with a 390 at the Novi, Michigan Championship Tournament on December 8th. We ended up in 3rd for robot performance with the other teams scoring 399 and 400. We were runner-up for the Champion's Award and nominated for Robot Design and Programming awards. All are records for our school. A great note to retire on after 5 years as FLL coaches.
Here is the video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLUWU6s4LBo It is a cell phone video so it is a little dark here. Our son is the one running the robot. He is still so excited over the tournament results that he can't stop building compulsively! He already has a new bot built for next year-hee hee. Guess he missed the part that mom and dad are retiring after this 8th grade year and plans to go 1 more year without us while he is still "legal".
Way to go Flint teams with perfect scores! Love Bill's tournaments! Note: He is officiating in our video :o)
-Kathy & Greg, Coaches, Frost Phantoms team # 111 - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/20/2007 16:49:04 GMT
We too are in the Missed-it-club, and like you, Kathy and Greg, we got a 390 at the Flint, MI Championship Tournament on Dec. 15th. With that score we were tied for sixth for Robot Performance(stiff competition!) and ended up 2nd overall. We do our Robot all in one run. To watch our 400 run in practice go to http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4765357511095837007
Congrats for being coaches for 5 years. You sure you don't want to go one more year :)
Congrats to all the teams who made the perfect score.
Diane for Brothers Keepers #2710 - Message by: frostphantoms 12/20/2007 17:22:53 GMT
Hi Diane,
I will have to show my son your video. I recognize the name of your team. I keep looking for the Flint results but have not seen them posted yet.
Right now the one more year is ....NO WAY! LOL! In the mean time son is still building and programming like a mad man. Who knows maybe we will see you next year or will the big bots be in our future??
Kathy - Message by: CGMSC745 12/21/2007 19:39:31 GMT
To follow up on my earlier post about the Indiana State tournament.
The tournament is a three rounder. Two teams scored perfect 400's for all three of their competition runs at the tournament.
Team #654
Central Space Lab One, Burlington IN, Head Coach Jim McCarter
Team #598
ZBots, Fort Wayne, Head Coaches Greg & Kitty Bellis
Amazing job by both teams.
I believe there were a couple other 400's at the tournament as well. - Message by: lightsavers2634 12/23/2007 04:22:03 GMT
Do you know if Centeral Space Lab One ever switched to the NXT, or even changed their famous RCX design? (I was originally a hoosier, but then moved to Iowa.)
-David (the kid) - Message by: CGMSC745 12/23/2007 19:19:04 GMT
Central Space Lab had two teams this year. At the qualifying tournament one team used an RCX and the other an NXT. It looked to me like the RCX 'bot was the similar to past designs.
Both robots were certainly capable of perfect scores but I'm not sure which robot 'one' used. The 'two' team had one perfrect score at the state tournament. - Message by: The New England Robotics Designers #1 12/22/2007 07:11:48 GMT
Name: The New England Robotics Designers
Number: 1
Hometown: Windham, New Hampshire
Country: USA
Scores: 5 - 400s at their local tournament on November 10th. - Message by: lightsavers2634 12/23/2007 04:14:00 GMT
Wow.... I am really amazed. I'm starting to wonder if there will be a 5 way tie on first place for robot performance at Atlanta...
Great Job!
-David (the kid) - Message by: bears299 12/23/2007 06:49:51 GMT
If there is a tie in Atlanta, do they give multiple awards for first, and none for second, third, and fourth?
Linda - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/24/2007 11:14:25 GMT
Wow. great job!
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: 598zbots 12/24/2007 03:13:20 GMT
Central Space Lab One used a RCX to score 3 perfect rounds.
Central Space Lab Two used a NXT and had 1 perfect round
ZBOTs used a NXT for there 3 perfect rounds.
Both Central Space Lab One and ZBOTs had to repeat one task in the last round. I believe Central Space Lab One had to re try the truck grab and ZBOTs left a single oil barrel on the platform and went back to get it.
I wish to congratulate Central Space Lab as the day wore on Jim and I chatted about the event and how each team was doing. He is a great couch and does a wonderful job working with both teams. It was a very friendly event and as the day progressed we wished each other well and joked about what would happen if we both did the 3 perfect rounds.
In the true spirit of FLL both Central Space Lab one and ZBOTs celebrated the tie on the stage together. - Message by: trooprobo1094 01/31/2008 20:27:46 GMT
Wow, all the videos are very very impressive, especially the one from Brothers Keepers #2710 with only ONE run to finish all. These repositioning moves are awesome!
We are a rookie team of 4 girl scouts ages from 9 to 11. We had 380 in the tournament (400 in practice) and were placed 2nd in robot performance and 2nd in champion's award. Our girls once have had a vision of finish all in one run but couldn't do that due to their inexperience. I definitely will show them all your wonderful videos.
Thanks to FLL for inspiring young boys and girls in the areas of engineering and science. Some of my very crafty girls have considered their future directions in science, engineering, or robotics. That's what we want to see beside the perfect score!
Congratulate to all the teams once achieved perfect score, and all the teams score 400 in the tournaments.
Marina - Troop ROBO 1094
in "Sunshine" California - Message by: robotmasters53 05/04/2008 09:47:18 GMT
In case 400 isn't just enough, check out the video by Robot Masters and icNRG, working together half way across the world & finally demonstrating how to get legally 660 points at the Asian Open Championship.
Please excuse a bit of poetic license but he it was all for fun.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hou0G5m2MaM - Message by:0222520A 05/07/2008 15:52:38 GMT
At the HTK Open 400's were more the norm than the exception. Next year's challenge has got to be more difficult.
The alliance mission was fun. Four team alliances had all four robots on the table (two tables) at the same time. The robots had to work cooperatively on the single table and "across-the-wall" with alliance partners on the other table to get maximum points.
Hi all :)
Hope everyone is having/has had a great season.
I am interested in getting other coaches feedback as I start to plan for next season. Could you tell me how you efficiently use the meeting time in the following situations?
MEETING SCHEDULES:
* What is your meeting schedule like for the season (how long each day, which day(s) of the week and for how many weeks)?
* Do your schedules change as the tournament gets closer?
* Are you able to accomplish a majority of your goals in this time frame?
* Do you have a schedule for major milestones at the start of the season?
* During which week/month do you accomplish major milestones (eg finish mission 1, complete skit, etc.)?
* What percentage of each meeting do you work on the robot, research and teamwork?
* How do you keep the meetings fun and not turn them into a sweatshop while still accomplishing goals?
RESEARCH
* I send homework home with the kids now for the research but how do you allocate time for defining the problems/solutions you want to cover in the skit, skit writing, prop creation and skit practice?
* Which things are take home and which ones are in meeting items?
SKIT WRITING
* How do you brainstorm skit ideas?
* How do you lead the discussions for skit writing?
* Is it done in meeting and how long does it take your team?
PRESENTATION PRACTICE
* How much time do you spend with your kids practicing for the presentations?
* Is the presentation practice part of your normal schedule or extra meetings planned last minute?
* What things do you do/ask to prepare them for the presentations?
ADDITIONAL ITEMS
* I see teams with great pit displays, signs and handouts. Do you do these things in meeting or do you assign different things to different kids to do at home?
WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION
* Do you make any specials document you keep hung on the wall or handout to the kids so they have something to refer to?
* Do the kids seem to learn better when things are in a graphical format for them to assocate concepts with?
ALL DAY MEETING BI-WEEKLY
* Does anyone hold a meeting every other weekend for a majority of the day?
* Does it work?
* How many hours per day?
* How would you schedule the day so the kids don't get too overwhelmed and stay on task?
* Comments or thoughts?
whew Thanks in advance for the help and just for reading all these questions! Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team
- Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/05/2007 19:20:55 GMT
I hope you get a lot of good answers Carla, because I could really use the help. Our meetings were a disaster. It was really really hard to get them focussed this year, and some good kids from last year were the worst. Next year I am making good on my good intentions, and NOT having 10 kids on the team. - Message by: tanrobotics 12/05/2007 19:55:43 GMT
Here are some answers for our two teams (St. Clement's School). We came across this formula after several years of trial and error.
MEETING SCHEDULES:
We start our season in Januaray. We meet once a week on fridays for 2 hours until June. In September, we meet on Mondays and Fridays for 2 hours until the week before the first competition. We then schedule additional practices during the week or weekends. This varies from year to year depending upon the kids' exam schedules and tournament dates.
Major Milestones:
During the Jan-June season, we teach Lego building and Programming. In May, we hold a competition amongst the kids for the best driving base robot (including sensors). We pick a winner and use that robot for the fall season.
In the fall, we focus on the challenge and the project concurrently. We usually have all our missions completed one to two weeks before the first competition, and we spend that one to two week in a "design freeze" mode, where we just practice the runs to get the time under 2.5 minutes. Also, we focus on finishing off the research project and presentation at that time.
Each meeting during the fall, we have everyone build a mission of their choice. They are also responsible for the research as "homework". When the kids finish a mission, they can either do another mission, or work on the research project. We have a few kids then spend the rest of the time working on combining and optimizing the missions.
How do we keep it fun? We use food as a reward after they have completed their tasks for the day :). Some days are better than others ;)
RESEARCH
Research is assigned as homework with periodic checks to make sure the kids are on track. We arrange for any field trips as needed.
SKIT WRITING
Skit writing is student led. We have had some fairly talented kids, so we just let them go wild with the skit.
PRESENTATION PRACTICE
We practice the presentation the week before our first tournament, while some key kids do the runs.
ADDITIONAL ITEMS
These are completed on the week before the tournament.
WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION
These are completed the week before the first tournament. I get the kids to write comments on their programs if they haven't already.
ALL DAY MEETING BI-WEEKLY
Weekend meetings work better as the kids are refreshed. However, our kids have such a busy schedule, we find it impossible to hold them. I used to hold them the first year I did FLL (2000 - Volcano Panic). It worked great then. We used to meet once a week all Saturday from 1pm to 5pm. The secret was not to go beyond 90 minutes before taking a break.
COMMENTS:
Well, this seems to have worked, as we have been able to consistently get to the Provincial/State Tournaments for the past 3 years now. In fact we were able to head to Atlanta 2 years ago (Ocean Odessey).
I hope this helps. - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/05/2007 23:08:29 GMT
Thank you very much, it does help. Can I ask you a couple questions?
1.) You said you hold a competition after you spring teaching to see who could build the best body and that was the one you use. What criteria are you using for determining who has the best body?
2.) Also your students led the skit writing. What I ran into was the kids didn't always have all the solutions they brainstormed or they assumed the judges would know about creating hydrogen so they didn't give any background. Another things was the skit didn't transition well from topic to topic or was simply hard to understand. How did you make sure the skit flowed smoothly, it contained understandable information and that each of the kids had a say in it?
Thanks again, Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: tanrobotics 12/06/2007 00:03:32 GMT
1) We hold a competition on a predetermined obstacle course (Just a few large blocks - about 10 inches on each side) that the robot has to navigate through just using touch sensors, light sensors, wall bumping, etc. We see which robot can go through the course fastest -- Actually, I first give them a simple block in the middle that they have to circumnavigate around back to the starting point, and that usually already weeds out a lot of the other robots due to consistency issues (i.e. the ones that didn't use any sensors).
2) We review their scripts as they progress, so we can usually point out that they had forgotten to incorporate a subject that they spent hours researching :). As far as transitioning goes, before they progress into the full script writing they have to tell us the main theme behind the script (i.e. game show, news report, or other...). Usually they are tossed up between two or three different ideas anyways, and we just tell them that they will have an easier time with idea A instead of idea B because ...
I find that if we don't set the kids up to fail, i.e. make sure that the complexity of the task is within their grasp, they are more than capable of completing the task.
This is also one of the reasons I REFUSE to use RoboLab with the kids. I didn't use it when we were using the RCX, and we are not using it with the NXT's. Despite Skye's preference for it, I find that it just adds one more layer of complexity that our kids did not need to have to deal with. (yes, I am a software engineer as well, and a Microsoft Certified Trainer, so it is not because I am scared of code, but rather, because I think there are other ways to do code than just writing text... anyways, enough about my personal rant).
Anyways, back to the specific question about the project: We usually have one team (we are coaching two teams) perform their skit/play/game show/news report to the other team. The other team will usually come back with some questions which we use to guide the kids to improve their skit. As far as making sure each kid has a say in it - in the begining of the year, in January, I give them a talk about how the Director's/Champions' award is based upon 25% teamwork / 25% project / 25% technical / 25% performance. That usually lets them understand that they have to work together, even with the more difficult people in their group.
Paul Tan. - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/06/2007 03:30:05 GMT
Paul
Thank you so much for the feedback, I know we are on the right track now. We used the same approach but I think the key for the skit would be more than one iteration of the revisions. We only did one and ran into problems.
You are not the only one that thinks robolab is an acquired taste. ;) I taught with the mindstorms software for two years, then robolab for a year and now nxt-g for two years. I am an applications engineer and I teach the kids object oriented programming. I find the kids learn the programming much faster with a simplistic interface. Carla ;) - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/06/2007 04:41:08 GMT
Wednesday December 5, 2007 "Official Gang up on Skye Day"
-Skye - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/06/2007 15:24:05 GMT
So does this mean I can mark December 5 on the calendar for next year?Carla ;) - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/07/2007 21:51:14 GMT
That's easy to remember! It's my birthday! - Message by: TechHEds410 12/10/2007 01:35:10 GMT
I don't agree with the gang ;-)
We used RIS our first season - but we gave up on the interface and taught the kids to modify the text files. How do you do that? Very carefully! ;-)
RIS was *so* frustrating that we moved to RoboLab in season 2 and are using it again this year. We are really sad - all of us jumped around with joy when we got v2.9.3 and realised we could have named variables. We'd like to be able to put subroutines into a library that we'd then include in every program but we can manage without (using templates). We also wish they were parameterised procedures, but we can simulate that.
Our best programming thing this year was when we wanted to make the (RCX) robot to move back a certain number of rotations. We Waited Until 30, which was too many. We Waited Until 25 - and the robot did not go back at all. We narrowed it down to when we zero the sensor and then do the Wait Until, the length of time it takes to achieve that, the sensor has already passed the marker (or something... I'd love to see the code inside the RCX - it feels really inefficient - I thought chips were good at arithmetic).
We programmed round it (the day before the tournament) by relacing the Wait Until with our own loop to compare the sensor with a variable. That allowed us to see the robot move when setting the rotations variable to as small as 5. So our code is more efficient than the in-built block???
Now, we need to build that into a subroutine and see what happens if we use it everywhere, in place of the built-in blocks.
Skye, can you award us extra points for the start of every comp if we also do this with NXT? (I remember you said last season that teams using NXT with RoboLab should get extra credit.) We're going to try using NXT for the UK final and the programmers want to stick with RoboLab rather than changing to NXT-G (dealing with new hardware will be bad enough, we might as well stick with the software we know). - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 04:14:22 GMT
I don't remember saying that teams using Robolab with NXT should get extra credit. I think I may have said that teams using a hybrid solution (NXT brain, Robolab, RCX light and touch sensors, NXT motors) were likely to have a significant advantage.
By the way, if you punch down into the 'wait for' Robolab subvi's and look at the implementation, you will find this rather nasty 2/100 second delay. Just write your own Waits without the delay and your good to go.
-Skye - Message by: TechHEds410 12/10/2007 11:51:59 GMT
Sorry, what you actually said was (fll-freak "Observations from a tech judge" 11/21/06 9:10pm):
>What I did not see were NXT teams using Robolab. That would
>have been a thrill to see and I hope to see that at State.
>Properly used and explained by a team, that might be an
>unstopable combination.
Thanks for the pointer to the subvi's - we haven't looked at those yet (it's hard enough getting our own code working!). I think a good task would be to look into all the ones we're using and see what else we can do to improve them. (But I still can't believe how badly they perform - why would you build in a delay? and why does it take so long to perform simple arithmetic?) - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 14:17:24 GMT
I believe the delay was added to allow for a more responsive multi-threaded program. If one program has a slight delay, it does allow the other tasks to sneak in and execute. With no delay, other threads can be starved (if the os is preemptive and not scheduled).
As for speed, don't forget that the code that runs on the RCX is not native assembler but rather an interpreted language. Each instruction is not performed in 1 to 5 assembly instructions but rather by an interpreter that might need 100+ instructions. Runs slower but makes a Robolab style simple 'compiler' much simpler and faster.
-Skye - Message by: crazycreators252 12/06/2007 04:59:36 GMT
I thought FLL was an 8 week thing. You couldn't start anything till the season kickoff. Did I misunderstand this?
Dave - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/06/2007 05:23:14 GMT
Yes and no. The mission descriptions and the research project are provided to all teams at the same day in middle September to insure fairness. But there is nothing that prevents a teams from building robots and programing them year round.
-Skye - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/05/2007 22:55:23 GMT
I understand. Having 4-6 kids is the best number. I had 14 last year (10 varsity and 4 in training) and I almost lost my mind. Now this year I have 4 kids and it was a lot less stressful on me. ;) - Message by: darthpanthers2465 12/06/2007 15:20:39 GMT
This past year our team held "Spring Training." We're from Florida so it coincides just nicely. During Spring Training our kids work on realted topics. For example this past year, our kids guessed that the Power Puzzle challenge was going to involve energy, specifically alternative energy based on clue posted to website. Each kid then selected a particular energy source (oil, solar, wind, etc), conducted research and then presented the info to the rest of the team through creative powerpoints. In fact it became a mini-competition as to could make the fanciest (most bells and whistles) presentation.
Spring is also the time to show off our robot and missions so we can help grow robotics in our area. We were extremely successful last year and welcomed 8 new teams to our school system. We have already received commitment from School District officials that robotics will be in every Middle school next year, so were expecting more rookies next year.
That has been We also use the spring to deepen teamwork through group activities (lazer tag, swimming, etc). Since our kids go to different schools, they don't get to see each other much outside of FLL. Once the challenge is announced, we meet weekely on saturday from 10-2. We have some who don't make every meeting, but our boys have chosen FLL robotics over sports. Our practices always include lunch and breaks. We take side trips and meetings seperately with whoever can make it.(not always with entire team).
Summer - we take off. Its too hot here and most people leave on vacation. If we do meet, it will be for a party. Plus when we get back together in fall, thers'e good stories to tell.
Rich Berglund
Coach, Darth Panthers 2.10
Tournament Director, Power Puzzle Quest - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/07/2007 08:15:48 GMT
You would never guess that our one and only tournament of the season is 2 weeks away. Today, we had a 2.5-hour meeting, 7 kids, first time everyone was there, due to the end of the sports season. Tasks accomplished: 2 lines of programming code, one beam moved back an inch, and shuttling the robot, parts, and field pieces from my car to the classroom and back again.
The only redeeming factor is that 5 days ago, I had 2 kids at my house for 2.5 hours. Tasks accomplished: complete installation of a two-stage (dual reduction) quadruple gear (total of 16 gears) 4-bar lift mechanism driven by 2 motors. Troubleshooting included readjustment and anchoring of motors and axles, friction reduction with spacers and collars.
I should have remembered that when I coached FLL, we had 2 meetings a week: one full-team meeting, and one meeting with only half the team (2 or 3 members, alternating every other week). Most of the work got done with only 2-3 members -- bigger meetings were for strategizing and socializing.
Yolande
P.S. After nearly 3 months of work, the robot can finally score! (How many points is another issue for another day...)
Use this area to post tournament results and press releases.
-Skye
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 18:45:05 GMT
NASHUA * The Inventioneers, Team 1976, a neighborhood team from Londonderry, earned the Champion*s Award at the sixth annual New Hampshire FIRST LEGO* League Tournament held Saturday, Dec. 8, at Nashua High School North.
FIRST LEGO League * For Innovation and Recognition of Science and Technology * seeks to encourage an interest in science, math, and technology among students, ages 9-14, in a compressed, fast-paced program.
The Inventioneers were among 52 New Hampshire elementary, middle school, and home-schooled teams who researched, designed, and demonstrated a robotic solution to this years* challenge, Power Puzzle. Power Puzzle asked students to audit energy use and recommend solutions to today*s energy needs.
The nine-member Londonderry team audited Londonderry*s Central Fire Station for energy efficiencies and met with an architect on the station*s new building to discuss use of thin film integrated solar panels in the design.
The Inventioneers win makes the team eligible to participate in international competition next April in Atlanta.
Runner up for the Champion*s Award was Team 528, the Flying Geeks Gold from Nashua Christian Academy in Nashua.
Technical Performance Awards (highest overall score based on the robot's performance in the timed rounds) went to:
First Place: Team 33, Mindstorm*s Mayhem, a Milford Area Youth Homeschoolers Enriching Minds (MAYHEM) team.
Second Place: Team 20, Renewable Energy Hogs, a neighborhood team.
Third Place: Team 2178, the Computer chips, from St. Thomas Aquinas School in Derry.
Fourth Place: Team 3493, Lego Lightning Lords, a neighborhood team from Brentwood.
Technical Robot Design Awards (best incorporation of team design and programming) went to:
First Place: Team 293, And the Cat, from Madbury.
Second Place: Team 33, Mindstorm*s Mayhem a Milford Area Youth Homeschoolers Enriching Minds (MAYHEM) team.
Third Place: Team 5298, Watt*s Up, Doc?, Amherst Middle School.
Team Project Presentation Awards (best proposal concept, documentation and oral presentation) went to:
First Place: Team 123, G.P.R.T. (Girls Precision Robotics Team), a Manchester neighborhood team.
Second Place: Team 20, Renewable Energy Hogs, a neighborhood team.
-continued - Message by: 12/10/2007 18:46:33 GMT
Deleted - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 18:48:05 GMT
Third Place: Team 1915, Space Cowboys, from Nashua Catholic Regional Junior High School.
Teamwork Awards (team whose members best demonstrate enthusiasm and spirit, partnering among themselves and among the teams, and problem solving skills) went to:
First Place: Team 155, Oh My, from Elm Street Middle School in Nashua.
Second Place: Team 590, New Boston RoboSox, from The Derryfield School, New Boston Central School, Mountain View Middle School.
Third Place: Team 637, Mach 6, from Manchester Church of Christ, Londonderry, Manchester, Milford, and Merrimack.
Special Judges* Awards (recognize particularly innovative strategies and performance) went to:
The Judges* Rookie All Star Team Award went to Team 2912, Team FUUSEion, from the First Unitarian Universalist Society of Exeter.
The Judges* Mentorship Award went to Team 3077, Chicnology, from James Mastricola Upper Elementary, Merrimack Middle School, Nashua Catholic from Merrimack and Nashua.
The Judges* Community Outreach Award went to Team 3554, Lebanon Lightning Legos, from Lebanon.
The Judges* Jedi Hardware Award went to Team 3521, Lebanon LeafHoppers, from Hanover Street School in Lebanon.
The Adult Mentor Award went to Frank Merrick, a coach on Team 2912. The Young Adult Mentor Award was given to Justin Benham on Team 3024. Outstanding Volunteer Award went to Dave and Nancy Kelso with the Manchester Central FIRST Robotics, Team 131.
The Team Spirit Award went to Team 155, Oh My.
-continued - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 18:49:47 GMT
Twelve weeks ago, students began building and testing a robot that would best execute a number of maneuvers on a tabletop field. At the day-long tournament, teams played against each other in 2 1/2-minute rounds on an 8-foot by 4-foot tabletop playing field. The robots were tasked to complete up to twelve missions that emphasize different types of energy use, such as hydro dam, wind, solar, wave turbine, coal, corn, oil, and tree planting. All teams evaluated the energy use of a building in their town and propose solutions to reduce consumption or move toward an alternative energy use. Points were awarded for each completed mission.
The nine-year-old program today has nearly 9,000 teams from throughout the United States and 32 other countries. Like its parent organization, FIRST, the LEGO League gives students a real world challenge, asks them to provide a solution through hands-on experimentation, and then demonstrate the capabilities of their robotic design.
New Hampshire tournament hosts included high school FIRST teams from Hollis Brookline, Bishop Guertin, Nashua, Manchester Central, the University of New Hampshire, Merrimack, Bishop Brady, Alvirne, Daniel Webster College, Team Phoenix, and Nashua High School North. BAE Systems sponsored the event.
For more information on the NH tournament, visit http://www.eis.na.baesystems.com/lego/index.htm.
(Posting edited to remove names of team members) - Message by: Chicnology 12/12/2007 11:22:52 GMT
Congratulations to ALL the teams who participated in the 2007 NH State FLL Tournament.
I especially want to congratulate Chicnology (Team 3077).
Just making it to the NH State Tournament is quite an accomplishment. Finishing 10th place out of 52 "top notch" teams is extraordinary and receiving the "mentorship" award was phenomenal!
We are all very proud of you!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=siruzmV9qU8
320 points...Not your maximum but very respectable indeed!
Well, since our team is finished for the competition season, I started poking around to see if next years theme is available yet... I couldn't find mention of it on the FIRST websites, but did find a Scandinavia FLL site that states it will be called CLIMATE CONNECTION (couldn't get a good translation on the details). Another website, www.chattanoogaengineersclub.org/lego2007/, states that it will be about weather and climate change.
Merle Yoder
Granby Red Blox
Granby, CT
- Message by: crazymonkeys 12/10/2007 23:29:59 GMT
http://www.hjernekraft.org/nyheter/nyhet.tpl?command=search&db=nyheter.txt&s=03122007144253
The time for changes has come, and with it the FIRST LEGO League 2008 Climate Connections Challenge!
Join us when we reseasch why many experts think that the earths climate is changing, and how these changes effect us and our planet.
All the causes and consequences are connected and experts say we need to "think globally and act locally.
We must pull in the same direction if we shall create a global plan. Do the First Lego Teams have what it takes to understand the global climate connections?
As usual we will provide background information when we start. But already you can have a look at the pages for the International Polar Year 2007-2008:
http://www.ipy.no/seksjoner/english
___________________________________________________________
Robert Ingebrigtsen
From the Gateway to the Arctic
http://www.destinasjontromso.no/english/index.html - Message by: GranbyRedBlox167 12/11/2007 01:42:36 GMT
The theme with description has now been posted at the USFirst.org website:
http://www.usfirst.org/community/fll/content.aspx?id=7586
Merle Yoder
Granby Red Blox
Granby, CT - Message by: lightsavers2634 12/11/2007 06:15:44 GMT
Wasn't it just some 25 years ago that Newsweek had an headline concerning a near future ice age? They had "evidence" that the average global tempature was dropping drastically. I wonder why this hasn't happened yet. :)
-David (the kid) - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/11/2007 14:46:41 GMT
LOL I have to say when I passed along the theme for next year and did get met with some skepticism and some great enthusiasm. Not everyone agrees that the evidence points to the same things.
2008 will be a great year for the kids to put that extra effort into the reference they use. I have a feeling as they share the info with the public they will meet of mix of reactions. Those reference are what people are really going to be looking at. Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/11/2007 18:46:39 GMT
I agree Carla, I hope the research presentation will allow for a variety of ideas. Teams who do research to find studies that refute global warming should be rewarded as much as teams that look for solutions to global warming.
Are you coming up to Flint on Saturday? I'm sure they can find something for you to do.
- Gary - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/11/2007 19:04:00 GMT
Aww Gary thanks for the invite. I know you would have work for me. LOL ;)
Wish we had the time. We are currently in the process of house hunting and help my BF's family move to CA. We have never been so busy! Carla ;) - Message by: robodogs2506 12/19/2007 17:51:55 GMT
How can the other side present a researched project on the issue when their premises will surely be that the global climate change issue is based on flawed science? Specious at best.
What if the question is what can we do to reduce "global climate change" and their answer is "nothing - because it is not a real issue and our activities don't have any real impact on global climate change".
This is going to be a tough one for our group to do. I already have received a lot of flak from parents & team members. - Message by: zap4702 12/19/2007 21:22:18 GMT
I think you're right that the overall success of the "climate change" theme as a project topic will depend on the actual question and requirements for the project.
My team gravitates toward environmental topics and even chose an environmental project for NanoQuest (they envisioned a lightning rod using nanomaterials that could harvest lightning and solve the world's energy crisis - far out but they had fun researching). So I know my kids and their families will be okay with it.
On the other hand, I find that the kids on my team who come from families where environmentalism is almost a religion, are the least likely to examine their sources and data in a scientific way - they need a lot of challenging to examine information critically.
Another coach recently mentioned (on another list, I think) that the coach's role needs to be that of "devil's advocate" when the project is politically charged - so that the kids are challenged to think scientifically no matter which stance they take on the issue. I like that approach.
Every year (this was my third) I seem to have lots of questions about all aspects of the challenge, but my team always seems to end up enjoying it - no matter what my personal misgivings are - so I'm always glad I keep my opinions to myself and let the kids run with it in the direction they choose.
Doreen
Team ZAP! - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/20/2007 04:55:12 GMT
> What if the question is what can we do to reduce "global climate change" and their answer is "nothing - because it is not a real issue and our activities don't have any real impact on global climate change".
Then you find sources that refute the premise that human activity is causing global change. Saying, "We don't believe in it." is no differnt than the ones who say, "We've got to do something before it's too late." Both sides need to be able to support their arguments with sources, not wishes.
The judges must have an open mind and give good marks to the merit of the argument, no matter what side they think is right personally.
- Gary - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/12/2007 21:15:12 GMT
Thanks for posting this. I thought climate change would be an obvious one for FLL! - Message by: hoffman1702 12/17/2007 16:42:56 GMT
I am disappointed to hear that they have selected climate for next year's challenge. Climate change is such a political issue, that it feels more like "big brother" trying to indoctrinate a bunch of smart kids for the future agenda. It will be interesting to see what happens to the kids who really dig into the research (vs. the propaganda) that's out there. My fear is that not many will, given the age grouping. It would have been a much more appropriate high school challenge.
Cynthia - Message by:015D2267 12/17/2007 17:22:50 GMT
Cynthia,
This a very contentious issue. Myself and another person expressed a similar opinion on our local forum and I was told this was not a political issue, it is a family values issue. I was also informed, in a rather ungracious way IMHO, that "the lunar landing was a fake, too", that "science doesn't lie".
I guess this is an opportunity for us to help the kids learn ALL the theories about global warming, not just the most popular. My son and two others on our team already plan on checking out the sun spot theory, one I have heard very little about. As a coach (if I choose to accept that mission again next year), I will assume my role is to play Devil's Advocate, challenging their ideas and making them think. If they do not know how I really feel about the issue at the end of the season, I will have done my job well.
It is also a great opportunity for everyone, kids and coaches alike, to find ways to graciously exchange ideas. This is a skill we all need to work on continuously. I know it would certainly help my family gatherings.
Julie - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/17/2007 18:02:29 GMT
I agree that this issue will have a lot controversy with it. I have already got mixed feelings from parents when I passed the news along. I too hope everyone will 'play nice' and show GP but from some of this years posting about the mission and rules I am a bit worried. When people have strong feelings about something, sometimes nice and friendly go out the window.
A larger fear I have is that you will get judges who feel very strong one way or another and it will not matter what the kids present. I hope that the presentation Q&A portion does not get heated if you get a judge that feels strongly against what the kids presentation viewpoint. I can protect my kids from the forum but not from their own presentation judging. Carla
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by:0222520A 12/19/2007 23:42:10 GMT
If it's doesn't cause a few arguments to flare up it isn't much of a topic. My girls started this year thinking that increasing wind and solar was the big solution. But now they think that energy production isn't much of a problem at all. The big challenge is matching production and demand schedules.
I look forward to a climate change theme. It will require a lot of research and independent thinking to navigate through the quagmire of fanatics, Cleopatra's (the queen of denial), and pseudo-scientists. - Message by:0175DA2B 12/26/2007 02:25:46 GMT
Ugh, what a dull topic. This recreational volunteer won't be coaching or encouraging my coworkers to contribute to FLL next year. We'll take our NXT kits and compete amongst ourselves, saving our registration money for pizza. - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/26/2007 23:01:08 GMT
Sometimes what looks like a dull topic (to you or the kids) may surprise you. We went from the "ooh, aah" of Mission to Mars, watching Spirit and Opportunity land almost immediately at the conclusion of FLL season to No Limits, a topic I feared that a team of all-male middle school students would find too "politically correct."
Sure enough, first meeting, I saw looks of deflation as the topic was announced. Still, they were good sports and set their minds to do their best, planning out activities to accomplish their goal. They spent a day in a wheel chair and had interviews with 4 people from the local disabilities agency, inviting them to judge the project at our local event. Along the way, they met some talented, fun people whose company they enjoyed, and learned to look at things from a different point of view. They came away feeling that that the project was even more fun than the year before.
It's easy to get involved with things that are a "natural fit", but tremendous growth can occur when we engage in things that don't necessarily appeal to us.
Yolande - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/27/2007 08:56:41 GMT
Yolande,
you hit the nail on the head.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by:0222520A 12/27/2007 20:06:30 GMT
Having had a lot of interaction with NASA over the years I found the Mission to Mars theme rather boring. Nothing can suck the excitement out of space exploration like excessive bureaucracy.
My only complaint about the 2008 theme is the similarity to this year and other environmental impact themes in the past. I'm all for environmentally aware children, but there are other fields of study/inquiry that are equally worthy.
But I have to say that I'm really looking forward to a clash between the militant tree huggers I coach and some unwary team of climate change denialists. That would be a debate worth paying to see. - Message by: JRE135 01/05/2008 18:01:31 GMT
I share the same concerns expressed by Carla, that for judges who feel very strong one way or another and it will not matter what the kids present. The challenge will be for the competition administrators to find competent judges that can weigh the presentations without personal bias. Hopefully that will be a factor when choosing judges.
Ron
MI FLL Coach - Message by: Legos In Paradise 22 05/11/2008 20:17:58 GMT
Thank you all for your comments. This is very encouraging as we contemplate the variety of opinions we expect to come from our teams this coming season.
Dan & Tami
MI coaches
I saw an amazing team at the Flint Michigan State tournament yesterday. 2710 Brother's Keepers ran the field using one program. It wasn't perfect, but nearly so. I don't know what they got on their first round. They were on my table on the second round, and got a 390 - the power lines were out of position by 1/4 inch so it only connected 2 properties. On their third round I saw that they had dropped one of the oil barrels off the drilling rig - with just one program and no stopping for modifications the basket they were catching in had to be pretty small. I don't know what happened on their 4th round, but I asked the team and they said something was off.
The robot returned to base several times to pick up or deliver models, but the team never touched the robot. Sometimes it would pause for a few seconds allowing them to place a new object in front of it. Other times they would place objects in base and the robot would swing by and grab them. Perhaps most amazing of all, they even released an object in the middle of the field and picked it up again!
Great job! - a pleasure to watch.
- Gary
- Message by: panteras261 12/17/2007 20:46:44 GMT
hey gar dop ya have a video so we can watch them - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/18/2007 15:27:39 GMT
I don't have a video - I was too busy reffing to run a camera. I'm hoping the team will see this and post one. Calling Brother's Keepers ...
- Gary - Message by: DarkMatter563 12/19/2007 05:33:47 GMT
Somebody needs to fix Gary up with a camcorder-hat.
Dave - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/19/2007 05:47:51 GMT
We have a myspace account with a 400 run on it but I don't know how to have people get into it, I'm just one of the coaches, not one of the computer-literate team members! We are trying to get it on youtube for you all. We will keep you posted. Thanks for the recognition.
Diane - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/20/2007 03:42:07 GMT
Here is our MySpace account: www.myspace.com/brotherskeepers1
Emory - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/19/2007 22:41:44 GMT
ok here is a video of our robot getting a 400 on Google Video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4765357511095837007 - Message by: Team4287 12/19/2007 23:10:56 GMT
When I first saw this video my jaw just dropped. It is extremely evident that the team has an understanding of how to build and program the robot.
Note: Each time I watch it I am amazed of all the hidden tricks that are programmed and built into the robot.
Congratulations again for completing such a feat. It is really impressive and entertaining too.
Stephen
CO FLL Coach - Message by: 12/19/2007 23:23:15 GMT
Deleted - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/20/2007 10:36:54 GMT
That is a clever strategy, a well designed robot and sound programming. A real winner. Great job!
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: 12/21/2007 05:23:48 GMT
Deleted - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/21/2007 02:53:06 GMT
WOW! I am speachless. I am at a complete loss for words.
The techniques I see here are truly fantastic. If you have not watched this video, do so right NOW. This video is a college course in robots in a 2.5 minute presentation.
Congratulations!
PS: Anyway you can make this video available to the public in a non Youtube format? Like an MOV or an AVI? I am sure to want to use this to show at various coach training classes for the next 20 years.
-Skye - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/21/2007 05:25:05 GMT
here is the .MOV video file of our run:
http://www.bigupload.com/d=UL3ZJK7H2P - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/21/2007 15:40:35 GMT
I have watched this video a dozen times of so in the last day. I am still amazed. Brother's Keepers and Flying Geeks will have to go down in the history books.
I have a whole bunch of questions such as why do you have two light sensors on the actuator arm that appear to be blocked by bricks? Would your team be willing to answer them in a public forum? If not, can I get answers by email?
-Skye Sweeney - Message by: Team_x 12/21/2007 17:22:28 GMT
Hi Brotherskeepers will you be going to the world festival?
Also, why did you deliver the white oil barrel and not red to the farm and making it touch the mat? - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/21/2007 17:35:14 GMT
From looking at the video carefully, it looks like the barrel is delivered on a jig that keeps it from touching the mat. But there is not likely more than a millimeter of
clearance!
-Skye - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/21/2007 18:18:15 GMT
I totally agree, it looks suspended in one way or the other.
A couple of questions remain, where are the other 7 oilbarrels at the end, (there are 3 barrels in the robot, that is IN base at the end). And where is the corn and the coalcar, aren't they supposed to be in base before the end signal?
Just questions, I'm totally admiring the accomplishment and the way they do it.
As I wrote in my previous message, this is TOP of the bill. They are playing the game in a different league (together with the Flying Geeks indeed) If I was to referee them I would strongly consider to award them 500 points.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: Team_x 12/21/2007 23:05:52 GMT
Hi icnrg. Will you be going to the World Festival or FLL OAC? - Message by: icNRG 2340 12/21/2007 23:43:31 GMT
Deo volente,
That is we have our 3countries nationals coming up. The socalled BeNeLux championship (BElgium/NEtherlands/LUxemburg). This will be January 26th, so we keep our fingers crossed. We actually are defending our last years title, so that won't be easy. The Dutch competition especially is getting more professional (read stronger) every year.
But OK we are preparing on the main issue: HAVING A FUN TIME. And perfecting our project & presentation and smoothen our Robot performance and Tag routine we have a MM objective. What we really want is to try going int'l, so Minneapolis, Atlanta or Tokyo. IGWT.
check our youtube movies for instance this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMOJHSdM_c
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/24/2007 08:36:16 GMT
I am Jonathan, the chief programmer of Brothers Keepers.
It is very dangerous to do everything in one run because if we make a mistake we have to start from the beginning.
We fixed this with the light sensors.
There are black and white lego blocks, which rotate so that you can put the black or white block in front of the light sensors.
The program is divided in to four parts.
When the program starts it checks the light sensors to determine which part of the program to run.
If the robot is rescued the light sensors caps can be set to tell what task to start with.
This way only one program is needed, one very long program.
We used the old RCX sensors so that we could put both a light and a touch sensor on one input port.
As for the drum, the axle holds it just off the mat.
The program is 146 blocks long with many myblocks.
The myblocks are stored in a separate folder from the main program.
We are not sure how to display this easily. - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/24/2007 18:11:15 GMT
This is from the Brothers Keepers head coach.
The competition in Atlanta has a shortage of positions open. To solve this problem the number of teams allowed to attend is limited to one per state and we attended the state competition which was designated to be skipped this year. It is my understanding that there are still a few ( say 10 ) openings and teams are selected based on how well a team exhibits the core FLL values. The Brothers Keepers is a very good team but there are many other very good teams, which make our chances of attending Atlanta small.
The team would really like to attend a competition somewhere. If you want to see us at your competition, talk to your organization. We will most likley attend any competition we are invited to.
Duane Eddy
You can contact me at eeainc@centurytel.net
PS. Skye, can you send me an email?
We have an idea for FLL we would like to discuss with you.
Thanks - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/24/2007 18:39:11 GMT
Duane Eddy,
All coach emails (the one you supplied when you registered) are available by clicking on the team name. That will bring up a page with team info.
But in case,... Skye@fll-freak.com
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 12/24/2007 22:30:12 GMT
If you don't get to go to Atlanta I'm pretty sure you will receive an invitation to the INSciTE invitational in Minneapolis Minnesota. Check here for details.
http://www.hightechkids.org/?2-1-1111 - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/25/2007 01:19:06 GMT
Since you have been so forthcomming in your answers...
My basic understanding:
Two NXT motors for locomotion direct connect to Mars Rover wheels.
RCX Touch sensor mounted on arm for "down" position feedback.
RCX touch sensor on the back? bumber of the robot.
Two RCX light sensors on arm but looking at a close brick. Used for backup program selection.
One ultrasonic sensor pointing in reverse.
Wall following and wall squaring wheels on both sides of bot.
One motor controlled "do everything" arm system geared down and controlled from an RCX? motor.
Questions:
What software language are you using?
Do you have backup programs if something goes wrong? (Sounds like it from the previous posts)
What was your success rate at home?
What was your success rate at competition?
Is the arm motor and RCX motor?
Do you have a light sensor hidden under the robot looking for lines? How about a picture of the underside?
What do you use the US sensor for?
How did you plan the grand tour? Did it evolve or was it planned out early on.
Must the robot push hard against something to activate the bumper switch? It looks like the gray beam might have to defect to expose the switch.
If you do not want to answer these I will fully understand.
Still waiting for your idea via email.
-Skye "Still in awe" Sweeney - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/25/2007 20:55:02 GMT
All motors are NXT motors
The counter is used on the hoist motor, the motor position is lost when a coast or timed movement is used. That is why we need a position verification touch sensor.
The touch sensor is used on the back to verify that we have a very good straight touch on the wall. On the movie you may notice, after the truck the robot resets itself on the wall because it does not have touch verification of good contact.
The standard block programming which came with the NXT is used.
The main programs have three switches based on the light sensor.
The first light sensor toggles between the first and second half of the mat.
In the upper and lower branch of light sensor 1 there is a light sensor 2 toggle.
The light sensor 2 determines if the first or second quarter in the designated half is to be run.
Quarters 2, 3, and 4 have a rescue setup program which takes the robot out of base and runs it to the position it needs to be to continue with the main program.
There is no light sensor under the robot but if we build another robot there will be one.
The ultrasonic sensor is used to stop the robot before it hits the girl and the flowers.
Loose lego parts on the mat is a dangerous thing.
We do our core robot early and determine the strategy when the mat layout is given.
We needed a challenge and when Gary quoted yours it was just what we needed.
So it was planned from the beginning.
Yes, the robot has to be very straight to hit the touch switch, but if it is not, the turn to uranium is not accurate enough.
We could not do it without sensors.
The tires and the gray beam deflect. It is necessary to have a soft hit or the robot will bounce away from the wall slightly defeating the touch switch.
We have had 6 runs in a row on our table at 400. The cause for failure is that the battery goes below the range we use.
We have two robots that run on the same program and it doesn*t matter which robot is used.
In competition we have not had a 400 run. Our highest is 390.
In regional our high score was 340. The improvement was from determining what variations a different board has and compensating for them between the tournaments.
If we had to do it again we would find someplace to tryout others boards.
I do not believe the secret to having a successful team has to do with the program used.
Here is some advice from the perspective of one veteran coach.
A good team is defined by three words. Balance, rules and research.
Balance *
The competition is four parts not one.
If you think that high score on the robot will make you win guess again.
We had a high score of 390 which gave us a 97% with the robot.
This means that if we had a 400 we would only gain 3%.
If you get a 70% on teamwork you are not going beyond state.
Team work
We practiced as a team taking random jobs working as a team.
Every member had to learn to be leader, hard for the followers.
Every member had to learn to be a follower, hard for the leaders.
Teach your team members to pass a question to the shy member when the topic is something they can handle.
Project
It is not how much work you put into the project it is how well you answer the rubrics.
Pretend you are a judge. It is your job to fill out a form. You want to check the boxes but if you can not see the answer it is hard to give the highest grades. Answer the rubrics in the order the judge has to answer it.
It is not possible to setup and present much research in 5 min. You will not be able to present everything so what ever you do has to look fantastic. Visual is the fastest way to convey information. Go somewhere do something, don*t spend all your time in front of a computer. Find some interesting facts that the judge does not know.
- Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/25/2007 23:01:27 GMT
continuation of coaches advice
Robot technical
Build your robot for the technical judge. They represent just as much of your grade as the ref does. Lots of sensors and find some creative ways to use the sensors. Do something that no one else has done. They will not know you can do it unless you show them. We did not need to use the ultrasonic sensor, we choose to. We carry the car to be different. Give the judge something to remember you.
The judges will ask questions about your robot but they do not know a lot about it. You must tell them.
Rules for the coach*s
Some things we have found work well for the coach*s
In our team it is mandatory for the coach*s to build a robot.
Are you shocked? Don't be.
You can not teach a class unless you have done it yourself.
The team is required to test it and disassemble it until no two pieces remain together.
It is against our rules to allow a coach*s robot to survive.
When the coach*s turn is over they must keep there hand off!
It is amazing how many coach*s can not follow this simple rule.
It is the coach*s job to assure the team is following the rubrics which is the last thing a coach wants to do so the team must remind them often.
The team may copy any coach robot they wish but it must be copied from memory not a working model.
Trust me it will not be the same.
Research
The most neglected part of the task is research.
Which tires have the best grip?
Does clean tires make a difference?
When is the voltage discharge curve the flattest or most consistent?
How accurate are the sensors?
Do they very from one to another?
How accurate can the robot movement be?
Where is the center of gravity of the robot and how low must it be to have a stable condition?
Do motors have the same power output or run the same speed?
Can the distortion of the joints cause the robot to move differently?
Most coach*s and team members want to jump into the construction without understanding what the constraints are.
Not only are you damaging your chances to win, you are teaching the team an unscientific approach.
First we determine and learn then we implement.
A good coach plays by the rules of FLL instead of suggesting the rules should be changed to fit their personal bents.
We encourage open competition and will have several team members attempt to build something as soon as all of the research is completed. We stress that the individual is only one of several and their ideas will seldom be used as the odds dictate. We typically have two robot prototypes at the time of the release of the tasks on the mat. The final version is a composite of the two with consideration of what the robot will be required to do.
A good coach bites the bottom lip a lot because professional courtesy for a coach is placing the team development before winning.
Ouch, Ouch, Ouch.
This is what worked for us.
Some of the other coachs may have different views.
Duane Eddy - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/26/2007 00:16:10 GMT
What a wonderful Christmas present! Lots of great technical information and coaching advice. It will take me some time to digest all this information. Thank you!
-Skye - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/31/2007 23:50:48 GMT
I'm glad that you are enjoying our information we're releasing, we are glad to be able to offer as much help as we can. We've been working for 5 years to find this info. and some teams get too old before they have a chance to figure out what makes good presentations and performances. If you have any other question please feel free to ask we would really enjoy answering questions!
Emory (one of the team members) - Message by: FLL-Freak 01/01/2008 00:13:12 GMT
Emory,
At what points during the mission to you use the ultrasonic sensor?
When delivering the solar panel, does your robot push up against the base plate of the house to align itself?
Are your alternate missions for failures simply to skip sections of the start of the huge mission or are they unique missions?
I am currently working on an edited version of the video you provided. I am adding some slow motion at critical points and some technical descriptions. I plan to use this video in future coach training.
-Skye - Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 01/01/2008 22:24:07 GMT
We use our ultrasonic sensor to straighten up against the house to deliver the solar panel, we found that the ultrasonic sensor can stop within 1/4" of a preset destination, but both eyes have to see the destination, the house is big enough for both eyes to see the destination.
Yes our robot does straighten against the base of the house.
Our alternate missions are just a way that we can skip some tasks to save time. Also if we started everything over half way through the program we wouldn't be accurate because we wouldn't have the weight of the car so it would throw us off. We don't really have alternate missions, we just cut into different parts of our program and the robot goes to that part of the program.
Once again if anyone has any further questions please ask! We would LOVE to answer them!
-Emory and Brothers Keepers
Hello everybody,
Team Watt is a dutch team that has been developing a modular robotdesign which allows very short rebuild times in between missions for the last 2 years, called MOT.
Since we get more and more questions from teams how to build this, we have added some instructions (in English) to our website, which is mainly in dutch. http://www.freewebs.com/wattateam/mottechniek.htm
We invite everybody to share and try this design, because it is really fast.
Good luck with all the tournaments still comming up, our next game is Beneluxfinals in Enschede, Netherlands.
Greetz
Watt a team!
- Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 12/18/2007 18:37:36 GMT
This is very interesting. Are you relying on the weight of the RCX/NXT to keep the gears in contact vertically?
Some translation issues:
"castor" should be "caster"
"gead" should be "gear" (I think)
--Jack Gregory - Message by: Watt 12/18/2007 23:37:30 GMT
Hello, thanks for the spelling corrections.
Yes sometimes we DO rely on the weight of the robot.
You can trust me on this because we have done this for 2 years now. Sometimes it happens that the gears slip. than you can choose between two options. place the gears in a way in which the main robot actually pulls itself towards the chassis. or you can put a pin between the two parts, this will prevent the gears from slipping.
For further questions you can send an e-mail to the e-mail adress attached to our team name. or you can e-mail me at bommel201@hotmail.com
Robert
PR management WATT
We are about to change our program a little bit and we will now need to have a set of by-laws that govern the club. I was wondering if anyone had by-laws that they would be willing to share.
Thanks and Happy Holidays
Paul
Placerita Robotics
Newhall, Ca
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/22/2007 23:21:35 GMT
Are you talking about official non-profit organization type by-laws or are you talking about a list of dos and donts for club members?
-Skye - Message by: PlaceritaTech3910 12/23/2007 00:47:22 GMT
I'd actually like to see both kinds. We began as a GATE program and didn't need anything, then we moved into our own organization but now we are being asked to become a club under our ASB. (It's a very complicated story) ASB requires us to have a set of by-laws (mission, guidelines, officers, etc). If this doesn't work, we are going to have to do the non-profit thing. So again, both would be great. Thanks for anything you can help with.
Paul
Placerita Robotics
Newhall, Ca - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/27/2007 04:12:31 GMT
I would encourage you to go to ChiefDelphi.com and look at some of the FRC programs described in the Team Organization sub-forum. Many FRC teams are independently operated.
- Gary
I just got a LEGO gift certificate that will cover one of the non FLL legal NXT sensors. These include the 3 axis accelerometer, one axis gyro, and one axis compass. I would love to hear what NXT people have found fun to play with off season or just for
-Skye
- Message by:0222520A 12/27/2007 23:52:10 GMT
The compass sensor is nice, but the 3 axis accelerometer is much more useful. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/28/2007 00:14:06 GMT
What type of cool projects have you used the 3 axis accelerometer on?
-Skye - Message by: bears299 12/28/2007 04:30:36 GMT
Just curious, IF the compass sensor had been legal last year, would the magnets in the nanotip have affected its funtioning?
Linda - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/28/2007 04:49:21 GMT
Compasses are very sensitive to magnetic fields. An active magnet like the nanotip or even a hunk of metal nearby will distort the weak Earth magnetic field. Even the magnets in the motors will cause problems and they will get even worst when the motor is running. Normal procedure is only to use a mag compass when the motors are off.
Disturbances like metal and permanent magnets in the local area can be compensated away if the geometry to those items does not change. A ship captain will have a card posted near the ship's binacle (compass station) that will have the corrections for the metal in his ship. But this card will not help him as he steams towards a island make of iron ore.
Compasses are a great tool, but certainly have their issues.
-Skye
Hi, this just to let people know about something fun to do with all the video and write-ups you've been accumulating this season, and to find out if enough people like the idea that the team should do it again next year or help other teams start up something similar.
FFLL is a free-form, mail-in local tournament hosted by the kids of Mega Ultimate Demon Dudes (M.U.D.D.), Team 631. Teams compete for fun awards by sending in video and photos of their runs, projects, team personalities, and whatever else suits them.
For info, visit the team's website--the FFLL information is at:
http://www.freewebs.com/worms4d/FFLL.html
International teams are welcome, too, but the host team only has members who know English, some French, and conversational Mandarin.
Vanessa
Coach, Team MUDD
- Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 01/13/2008 02:49:08 GMT
Vanessa & Team MUDD,
I LOVE the concept! Hope you get lots of good entries.
Yolande
Hello! We are a homeschool JFLL team that has grown up. We are looking for an established FLL team in the Indianapolis area to join.
Thanks.
- Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 01/16/2008 18:20:58 GMT
Contact your local FLL state tournament director. He can help you get in contact with teams in the area. Good Luck, Carla :)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL - Message by: puzzletwo2007 01/17/2008 22:40:07 GMT
Thank you so much. I will do that. Best of luck to you next season!
Rebecca
FLL is all about sharing knowledge. Getting the kids into engineering and programming. And not to forget teamwork. We kick off with this footage of team icNRG training the TAG-routine with 7 chassis changes using the SUPER HORNET mighty MRC robot design scoring 400 points in a ballet like choreography. We call this BIG FUN !!!
CHeck out our website as well www.icnrg.nl
Who's next?
take this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iYFUJPz0GE
- Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 01/23/2008 00:24:20 GMT
Great video! Your team takes tag-teaming to a new level, with all the assisting that each member does for his/her partner. Ballet is a good description.
Yolande - Message by: Chicnology 01/23/2008 00:37:01 GMT
Congratulations to ALL the teams who participated in the 2007 NH State FLL Tournament.
I especially want to congratulate Chicnology (Team 3077).
Just making it to the NH State Tournament is quite an accomplishment. Finishing 10th place out of 52 "top notch" teams is extraordinary and receiving the "mentorship" award was phenomenal!
We are all very proud of you!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=siruzmV9qU8
320 points...Not your maximum but very respectable indeed! - Message by: icNRG 2340 01/23/2008 18:40:02 GMT
FLL videos are so nice to view! Especially the expressions on the faces are so funny!
Way to go Chicnology! And nice hairdo (coaches)
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
The January edition of the FIRST Newsletter is out. Go to usfirst.org, the "View Newsletter" link, and then the Spotlight "On Students" link near the bottom. "Brittany Voshol travels through FIRST"
(Some of you may recognize the last name)
The direct link to the article is http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=7890
- Gary
I am wondering if anyone else has heard talk of adding a 4th motor to the rules for next year. The idea being that you would be able to then manipulate objects on the X and Y axis at the same time instead of just one or the other. Has anyone else heard this? Any thoughts? Thanks, Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team
- Message by: FLL-Freak 02/28/2008 04:50:41 GMT
Not sure how this would be possible with only LEGO parts. The RCX and NXT have only three motor ports. Multiplexers to allow you to control more motors are not LEGO parts.
I suspect this is just a wild rumor.
-Skye - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 02/28/2008 15:29:00 GMT
Thanks Skye! That does make a lot more sense. I knew I was missing something and just could not put my finger on it. Carla ;) - Message by: lightsavers2634 02/28/2008 21:49:27 GMT
You could control 4+ motors if you use a few RCX-NXT convertor cables, but you wouldn't be able to control them all independently.
-David (the kid) - Message by:0222520A 02/29/2008 21:27:16 GMT
Power function motors with an IR transmitter on the NXT. Better yet a new power functions controller with serial interface.
I don't expect any hardware changes soon, but based on early NXT press releases I'd bet we'll get new software before next season. I wish I still had the migration path document that showed multiple phases of NXT software development.
Dean Hystad - Message by: robotmasters53 03/01/2008 21:57:45 GMT
If the motors are built into attachments, you can easily make use of larger number of mortors at the table (although only 3 at a time will be attached to the robot).
If getting a couple of working axis for your arm is an objective, teams have done it before with only 1 motor for the arm. You can check out some older video of Mindstorm Mayhem's (watch their No Limits video). Key seems to be to provide right interface from the ARM motor and various attachments.
http://www.mindstormsmayhem.org/team-videos.asp - Message by: icNRG 2340 03/02/2008 10:33:58 GMT
Sorry Robot masters53, what you write is totally INCORRECT.
I put it this way because some readers think that everything written in this forum is true. Well what you state is NOT. Please remove your posting from this topic!
RULE number 7 ( it has been around for years and I think this will continue.
7. Materials This rule is not just about the robot... This rule controls everything you bring from the pit area to the competition area including the robot, all attachments, and all strategic objects when viewed all at once as a package. All these objects must be made entirely of LEGO elements in original factory condition (except LEGO string and tubing may be cut to length), and must conform to the following quantity limits on electrical parts, no matter what you intend to use or connect or attach to the robot at any one time:
etcetera
this means the maximum motors is three (3)
7. Materials This rule is not just about the robot... This rule controls everything you bring from the pit area to the competition area including the robot, all attachments, and all strategic objects when viewed all at once as a package.
Sorry sounding rude but I think it will be wise if you (robotmasters53) remove this posting from th forum.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: bears299 03/02/2008 17:53:39 GMT
I believe the robotmasters were trying to give an example of how a team could utilize 4 motors (if the rules were changed to allow 4 motors) when only 3 motor ports are available on the NXT brick. Actually, you could build 4 motors into your robot design, and then swap which wires were plugged into the ports, so one mission could use a motor which moves an arm up and down, and a different mission could use an arm that moves left and right.
Linda - Message by: icNRG 2340 03/02/2008 19:02:31 GMT
Okay linda, perhaps you are right there.
But I've encountered too often postings that are misinterpretated and read by teams with problematic outcome. And that is what I want to prevent.
Clear rules and strict enforcement will be needed because year after year the problems get bigger.
And by the way we really need to skip leniency altogether (rule 18) I've seen too many really big violations that were tolerated, even in the nationals.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/03/2008 15:38:28 GMT
You will see a big change next year with rule simplification. I don't think you will see these same problems occur again. Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: icNRG 2340 03/03/2008 16:16:32 GMT
That would be something!
I would not mind to help assess the new set of rules and to make life easier for Scott Evans. Hereby I volonteer! I am sure several veteran coaches/diehard FLL enthusiasts are a good knowledge bank, further good ideas already saw life in this forum
example : CGMSC745 "2007 Challenge too easy?" 12/18/07 6:36pm
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/03/2008 16:25:15 GMT
LOL you are not the only one giving Scott feedback. He has already had a ton of help knowing what needs to be changed. Over the course of the last 2 seasons he has gotten a bit of feedback. That is what he is using to redefine the rules with. I am so excited about next year I can't wait!! Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: icNRG 2340 03/03/2008 16:37:55 GMT
Carla that is not what I meant.
To be more precise I think it would be wise to present the new set of rules in draft version (SO before publication) to a panel of people like you and me. In that way problems and possible loopholes can be solved/eliminated so that the QA's can be kept to a strict minimum.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by:0222520A 03/04/2008 22:07:20 GMT
Release the rules early to a select few teams? I'm sure nobody will have a problem with that. - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 03/04/2008 23:09:21 GMT
How about a few retired coaches who are only mildly bribeable :-)?
Yolande - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/04/2008 23:19:07 GMT
LOL Now that was funny! - Message by: icNRG 2340 03/05/2008 00:57:58 GMT
hear hear
Classroom Activities for the Busy Teacher: NXT
Has anyone used or seen this book in detail? I am trying to evaluate if the work sheets and lessons would be valuable during summer workshops.... Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks, Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team
Hi all,
We are in the planning phase for the '08 season and I got a question I wasn't sure how to answer.
The questions was:
Do the research solutions have to be a currently researched solution or could it be a possible solution in 10 years because there is still a lot of research going into it?
Basically what he was trying to find out was if there was VERY new research and there was not a lot of data (or sometimes not any at all) to back up the theory yet is it still ok to present as a solution? Thanks for the help, Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team
Has anyone used the NXT Robotics Engineering 1 Curriculum (Product # W991282, legoeducation.com)? Any commentary?
Also, do you have other NXT curriculum that you've found useful? I tried searching on this forum but didn't find what I'm looking for.
Yolande
Does anyone know if teams are allowed to purchase a 2nd field set-up kit?
We're a home school team and it's caused problems having the set-up in one home only. Other team members would like to be able to work on solving missions at their homes too.
I can't find any option on the form to let one team purchase 2 field set-ups. Does anyone know if it's possible, and how to do it?
- Message by: zap4702 05/01/2008 22:26:38 GMT
I'm pretty sure the only way to purchase an additional field kit is to pay for another team registration as well (and even though that's an expensive solution, I do know of teams who do this). Each registered team is allowed to purchase only one field kit.
I feel your pain - we're a homeschool team too. The kids on my team have sometimes taken just certain field models home to work with between meetings, but I agree it's not ideal.
Doreen - Message by: powerstormers 05/02/2008 07:18:16 GMT
Thanks for the quick response.
I guess it's just something we'll have to live with!
Folder: FLL Programming Discussions 08/23/2007 23:29:28 GMT
Folder: General Programming Questions 10/26/2007 01:51:17 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 10/13/2007 03:44:37 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
- Message by: Robostorm 09/18/2007 17:47:17 GMT
For the RCX, how would you program a third motor to lift and lower.
Robostorm - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/18/2007 18:26:05 GMT
What language are you using?
Do you want to lift and lower based on time, position, or perhaps a light or touch sensor?
-Skye - Message by: Robostorm 09/19/2007 00:43:19 GMT
I think I would lift and lower based on time.
Robostorm - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/19/2007 02:08:00 GMT
Well, you answered 1/2 of the question!
What language are you using? RIS on RCX, Robolab on RCX, NXT-G on NXT, or Robolab on NXT?
-Skye - Message by: Robostorm 09/24/2007 17:03:35 GMT
OH. I think we are using Robolab on RCX. - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/24/2007 17:46:35 GMT
In that case, you would:
1) Turn on the motor using a motor icon to turn on the proper motor(by connecting the proper modifier).
2) Use a WaitForTime icon with the proper time modifier.
3) Turn on the motor with the proper red stop sign icon.
If you can't figure it out from this general outline, then you might want to look on the web for Robolab examples. You can find some at www.fll-freak.com under the team pages.
-Skye - Message by: robotrix6079 10/12/2007 02:01:18 GMT
My NXT software will not download. It says I have to have administrator powers to download this, but I am the only administrator on this PC. A little help, please!!! - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 03:36:34 GMT
Do you mean download or install? Are you trying to install NXT-G or send an NXT program from your PC to the NXT?
What operating system are you using? You may be the only user of the PC, but that does not mean the account you are using by default has admin privaledges.
-Skye - Message by: robotrix6079 10/12/2007 16:26:47 GMT
I mean install NXT-G on my PC, and I know I am admin, I have gone into my control panel. I use IE9 - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 16:49:50 GMT
How have you verified that you have admin privaledges on your PC? Just bringing up Control Panel is not proof. Did you go into the User Accounts Applet?
So I assume you place the CD into your computer and it autostarts. You then go through some number of steps before it yells at you for not being an admin. It might help others help you if you gave us the exact sequence and the exact text of the failure notice.
-Skye - Message by: robotrix6079 10/13/2007 03:44:37 GMT
OK, I just got it to work, I used a non-admin account. But after I saved a block, the computer went defunct. I cannot use a lot of stuff. If I try, an alert comes up saying (title)BJC_4300(end of title)You do not have the rights to use Microsoft Word.(end of alert) You can replace Microsoft Word with whatever I am trying to open.
I've reluctantly made the move to V 1.1 with Firmware 1.05 ( memory benefit ) and now I have some issues with motor control. Previous versions we had the robot ramp up speed with coasts between motor commands. In the latest version, we've re-written same program but the coasts don't coast, more of a stop and go method ( which is a problem for us ). I've gone back and tried firmware 1.04 & V 1.1 but that didn't help. any ideas?
- Message by: Team4287 10/25/2007 17:41:11 GMT
We are using firmware V1.1 and I noticed that too.
Fortunately, the firmware was updated at the beginning of the season so the team has learned to deal with that.
I have also noticed that the delay between blocks is fairly large (~0.1-0.2 seconds). This has caused some issues using the various sensors and "fine tuned movement." To address these issues the team uses lower power. Unfortunately, this comes with a penalty...time.
While I don't have access to the robot at the moment, you might want to try the following experiment for both V1.05 and V1.1 in a continuous loop:
1) Move the robot forward at 100% continuous power.
2) Immediately stop the motors.
3) Go to step 1
If the loops are fast, I would expect to remain still, but my guess is that it will move forward fairly quickly (though jerky). This might help you decide which version of code is better.
I wish if I could help you further, but unfortunately we have what we have.
-- Stephen - Message by: homebotics1229 10/25/2007 18:03:39 GMT
I wanted to add another thought to the issues with the software . . . we know we can't change the software so we must program the hardware around it. In the real engineering workplace, this is reasonable (though not desireable) scenario.
With our team this year, we began the season by talk extensively about what is precision and what is tolerance. There are limitations on what the hardware and software are capable of performing. If the tema members can grasp that, it provides them a fabulous opportunity to be creative within its restraints.
Hope that helps with this discussion
Theresa - Message by: b1001592 10/26/2007 01:51:17 GMT
Thanks for the feedback - I know we can re-design around this problem; I was hoping to avoid that and more importantly I wanted to make sure I wasn't in left field on the impact of the s/w upgrade. I really like the coast benefit that previous version provided. I would still love to hear from other teams too.
- Doug
Folder: Miscellaneous Programming Questions 12/10/2007 21:25:48 GMT
Discussion: RobotC By: 01749AFB 09/09/2007 17:31:19 GMT
Is FLL going to allow programming in CMU's RobotC for the 2008 game?
- Message by:0222520A 08/24/2007 04:32:35 GMT
Won't know until September 5. But my early guess is no. - Message by: legoaces44 08/24/2007 16:43:37 GMT
It would be a great move if FLL lifted the restriction on programming language to allow Robot-C. NTX-G is a good language, but has some inherent limitations based on the high level of simplification and abstraction. NXT-G is super-slow to execute on the brick and does not allow one to truly understand and control the core elements of a robot. Robolab is OK, but does not make much sense for new teams to adopt, as it will be unsupported in the future. Robot-C would be a great way for kids to learn and understand more fundamentals of programming as a part of FLL. Kids are amazing in their ability to learn new technical stuff, I think we should take off the restrictions and let them explore, develop and program with whatever software they are up for. We'll see what direction FLL takes, they do a good job at making the right decisions on these issues.
-MatterWorks
Coach of LegoAces Team#44 - Message by: The Flux Capacitors 24 08/24/2007 17:20:47 GMT
I am familiar with Robolab for RCXs and have the software that came with the NXT we recently purchased, but am not familiar with Robot-C. Where do you get it? Who made it, etc? Also, is Robolab 2.9, which works with the NXT, like working with Robolab on RCXs?
Eric
Team 24 - Message by: FloridaModirator 08/24/2007 20:06:51 GMT
But think of the problems having all the different languages would be for judging. I know of at least these Robolab, NXT-G, I, I++, BB, MSVS-Robot, lava and whatever other languages are out there.
I've taught programming to 9-14 year old for some time, and IMHO, I find that the process of programming is the important part they take with them. Modular, iterative development, constant testing, documenting and such are much more easily absorbed when the language is simple. C and Java are cool tools, but the kids get stuck in the details and often write one giant method for each program. - Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/09/2007 17:31:19 GMT
RoboLab 2.9 works the same for the NXT as it did for the RCX. The only difference is that when you download the program to the robot, a Choose Hardware dialog will come up and you will be given a choice of which platform you are downloading to - RCX, NXT, or Control Lab (which doesn't matter for FLL).
RobotC can be purchased from http://www.legoeducation.com or directly from the Carnegie Mellon University Robotics Academy at http://www-education.rec.ri.cmu.edu/. Since LEGO Education sells RobotC that puts it in a different position than most other languages mentioned in an earlier post - pretty much the same position as RoboLab in my opinion (which is created by Tufts University and sold by LEGO Education).
Larry - Message by:0222520A 09/04/2007 21:54:07 GMT
If NXT-G is too simple why not try full-blown LabView? You'll still have the pokey firmware, but many of the "innards" are exposed. My girls mastered NXT-G last year and are anxious to write some custom program blocks using LabView this year. - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/05/2007 14:40:49 GMT
You should check with FLL first before having the kids write custom blocks in Labview. I'm thinking that will not be one of the "allowed" languages.
The purpose of the language restriction is in three:
1) Levels the playing field by reducing the ability of non team members writing code that makes the robot behave differently.
2) In a real world scenario, you would have to use what you are constrained to to make the project work, even if there is a better something out there.
3) The kids have to make choices, similar to the board, not all teams can get a 400. They have this much time to do their best with what is given. Do you use a move or a motor block? Do you do the 35 point or the 45 point mission first.
Hope this makes sense. It's not about the robot or the game, its about the excitement of the act - engineering.
Laura - Message by: NCFIRST 08/27/2007 22:07:45 GMT
My guess is no based on page 31 in the Coaches' Handbook. It lists RIS, Robolab and NXT-G but no mention of RobotC.
Marie
Hey our team just got the new nxt-G program and we where wondering if we could use the mini-blocks in it?
- Message by: FloridaModirator 08/29/2007 16:26:00 GMT
Yes, you can use any of the features in the NXT-G software.
Laura - Message by: theguysinside644 09/12/2007 02:15:01 GMT
This seems to say that you can't use them. It also seems to say that we must go back to version 1.0 of the firmware. Are we really being restricted this much?
Fred
QA22 More Software
9-07-07
Q: Helpful add-ons to NXT-G such as the smaller mini-move block and other new programming blocks are available. Although they do not come "in Lego sets", are the new blocks and new firmware OK if used with allowable programming software?
A: We're trying to provide a fun technical experience for kids where they learn by doing, and where things are as fair as possible. We chose LEGO robots because LEGO is universally known for its simplicity, quality, and versatility, right out of the box. Kids and coaches are already comfortable with it as a toy, but we leverage it as the unparalleled electromechanical prototyping medium that it is. To keep things as unintimidating and fair as possible, we simply constrain the allowable kit to LEGO pieces in stock form, and LEGO software in stock form (from FLL kits). This way, a perspective coach who's strong on passion but weak on computers (the vast majority of coaches) can look at FLL and know that everything needed comes in the box, and kids can work with it right off the shelf, and those kids can make a good showing. Of course some teams do have engineers and programmers as coaches, and that's great for those teams, but it amounts to an unfairness we have had to accept and live with, and there are others, but we must strive to keep them to a minimum. So we make it clear, in our FLL values and rules, that we expect the kids to do the work, with the kit provided, and nothing but guidance from the adults. Increasingly though, we face questions like the one above, and really, we can't assess and control all that stuff, so we remind you that you're on your honor. Did the kids do everything? Can they explain all of it to the judges? Great. The software rule is the simplest one we have. We can't state it any more clearly, and neither can we control how you program, but if you're downloading programming blocks and firmware, you're using something that didn't come in the kit, written by someone other than the kids on your team. Some may consider that a form of sharing, some may not. But when you need to ask an ethical question, by definition what you're asking about is questionable. The most we can hope is that coaches understand how much more valuable the process is than the points, and that the full power of FLL comes from coaches who focus the kids on accomplishments instead of results. - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/12/2007 03:11:42 GMT
I agree that this sounds like you must use the software out of the box without alteration including miniblocks.
But, the software (NTX-G 1.0 or 1.1) ITSELF provides for an upgrade path using the help menu item. If you could not upgrade the software using LEGO's own updates, then a large chunk of 1.0 people would have NXTs that are useless. On many computers, the supplied software WILL NOT work in any shape or form.
I think what FLL is thinking about is the ability of people to write their own blocks using the SDK and an expensize copy of Labview. In this regard I fully support FLL's position.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 04:03:52 GMT
Expensive?? You mean the student copy of LabView that National Instruments sent me FOR FREE! I didn't even have to pay shipping, let alone the $20 upgrade fee like last years teams are paying to get V1.1 NXT-G software, or the $69 single user charge for ROBOLAB ($49 upgrade).
At least FLL is consistently inconsistent on this issue. I guess I can only do LabView level programming if I decide to use ROBOLAB.
Dean Hystad - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/12/2007 13:07:30 GMT
Dean,
It would appear that I am a bit behind the curve on this one. Last I looked, LabView started at over $1,000. The version I have at work is nearly $10,000 for a single seat licence. At those type of prices I would understand FLL's position on just the money aspect. Rich teams would have a leg up on other teams.
But then again, the whole reason that FLL stuck with RIS, Robolab, and now NXT-G was an attempt to get the coaches away from the computer and let the kids do the work.
Now I am not suggesting that you would be like that. YOUR reputation as a LEGO demigod is inpeachable. You would take the time to teach the kids how to use the C, Java, or Labview tools to write whicked code. But I hope you will admit that the pressure is reduced on "over involved" coaches to write the code themselves if all they can use is RIS, NXTG, and Robolab. (Although in my personal experience, RoboLab kicks backsides).
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 17:09:30 GMT
Sorry about venting here. But I'm just getting tired of seeing teams max out after two or three years in FLL and not having avenues for doing more advanced work. I've seen this happen with a few teams in Minnesota. After a while all that is left is perfect scores, winning trophies, and going to the world festival.
My rookie team of 4th graders last year scored highest in the state on their research presentation (not the best project, but a good one, a fun presentation and a near perfect Q&A). Their robot programs were far better than any NXT-G programs I saw at the regional tournaments where I judged. They are a little weak on robot design, but have a reasonable grasp of mechanical principles, and the physics of how simple machines work. They just need to learn how that translates into LEGO.
What am I going to do next year, or the year after when they figure out the robot building, and they can do the programming in their sleep? I don't want FLL to be all about trophies.
Well, I guess there's always the research project.
Dean Hystad - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/12/2007 18:25:13 GMT
Dean,
I understand your frustration. But other than a few dozen teams in your situation, the rulling makes sense.
You can always attempt a perfect score with just one outing from base! Only been once by the Flying Geeks last year. They pressed the run button, sat back and 1'23" later they had a perfect score.
Or, I have always wanted to get my team to solve all the missions on the board incorrectly such that their score would be zero but would cause major gasps of wonder from the audience. Things like putting the truck on the house roof and the uranium on the oil platform. But they would not bite. Go figure.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 21:57:54 GMT
I've worked with teams that have resorted to similar strategies to keep FLL interesting. Just in case you've ever wondered, omni-directional and Killough platforms are not effective in FLL competition. And pneumatics is a really slow way to climb stairs.
But it takes a twisted, perhaps even slightly damaged, brain (like the Abby Normal one in Young Frankenstein) to find such activities entertaining. Though there is a strong appeal to me, my team's parents probably don't want their girls to become too much like coach.
Not to belittle Flying Geeks accomplishment (truely astounding), but the challenge last year was way too easy. I doubt they'll succeed at repeating the feat this year (But man would that be cool!) My guess is that perfect scores will be few.
Dean Hystad - Message by: Flying Geeks 528 10/09/2007 23:44:14 GMT
Hi Dean,
This is Coach B from the Flying Geeks. In my opinion, there were several things that all aligned last year which allowed us to do what we did:
1. Nothing to crawl over (that would have messed up our ability to use our light sensors to navigate)
2. Nothing to bring back to base.
3. A Cooperative combined mission (allowed us to do things in the order we wanted, not mandated by speed)
4. LINES
5. Literally Hundreds of hours of programming, programming, and reprogramming.
Our kids decided early on they didn't want to put in all the time again (our team has split into two teams this year and our experienced kids have been split accordingly). We were considering doing it all in two missions, but in the end decided to try it in 5 trips. - Message by: lightsavers2634 10/31/2007 20:25:55 GMT
One could always place the Hydrogen car and the trees on the roof, ring the uranium on the smoke stack of the power plant, and ring the red uranium on the satalite pointer. Not only would you impress the crowd, but you would still score well.
-David (the kid) - Message by: brian001 09/12/2007 14:18:51 GMT
Skye, National Instruments has a program in place to provide a student version of LabVIEW 7.1 free of charge to folks who wish to use it on the NXT, either to program directly or author NXTG blocks (on theNXTstep blog, search for the "LabVIEW Toolkit released" post on 5 Dec 06, there's a link in the comments). It's certainly not for everybody, and I think the average FLL team would have atrouble (and the average FLL coach a lot *more* trouble) using this. But it is an option that NI is providing FREE from them (still amazing).
As to the original question, the miniblocks were authored by NI at least in part due to the heavy comments in these forums about program size... but they've built a lot of that ability right into the "stock" blocks in 1.1, so it's no longer the issue it was.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/12/2007 22:41:38 GMT
As a coach, the kids on my teams have not run out of things to learn in programming in 5 years. The NXT-G software can be very powerful, or very simple, teams choose. Last years challenge was for the kids to make a my-block that would accelerate from power setting 0 to the given power "p" in the given time "t" and go exactly the distance "d" decelerating 10% from the end of the distance. The thought was that the start and stop of the robot was jeryk. The myblock was cool and the robot ran much better. Without help it took the better part of 3 months to get it right.
Perhaps your kids teacher is too good :) Can you come help me?
Laura
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
I'm trying to teach our team how data hubs work, but can't get them to work myself. I tried doing a simple example: use a math block to add A (=10) + B (=10) to give an output of 20. I wired the output to the input terminal of the "duration" option on the hub. I'm expecting the motor to turn for 20 seconds. However, it only runs for a second or 2, depending on the selections I make in the "duration" box on the motor's configuration window.
Thanks for any help.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/24/2007 03:14:37 GMT
Are you using version 1.1?
I assume you used a Math operation (+-*/ on the icon) and set the A and B to 10 and 10. Then you selected the addition operation from the pulldown box.
Next I assume you added a Move after the math icon and opened up the data hub. You then connected the Math output (#) to the duration input (left side circle with arrow).
Now you should have selected Rotations and the proper motors. If this is what you did, it should have worked. If it did not, post a test program for us to look at.
-Skye - Message by: SWAT1579 09/25/2007 05:05:59 GMT
Hi Skye,
I think it's working now, but first I'll answer your questions.
We're on version 1.0, which shipped with the NXT set purchased last year, as well as this year.
Your assumptions are correct about the blocks I was using.
Here's what I found out, after reviewing the plug characteristics (the table that shows allowable data types, ranges, etc) shown at the bottom of the page of the motor block help page, and then experimenting some more.
You can choose "seconds" in the duration pull-down menu of the motor configuration block, but the duration is in milliseconds, not seconds. (There's an error in the plug characteristics table at the bottom of the page, because it says "seconds = seconds".) So for the math block I used A=10,000 and B=5,000, and the motor ran for 15 seconds, as expected. (If you choose "rotations" or "degrees" from the drop down box, it will read the output from the math block in degrees.) I don't know why the duration input window isn't greyed out when you select "seconds" from the pull down menu, since it's now controlled by the math block, but that's a minor bug.
Thanks for your help.
-John - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/25/2007 13:06:06 GMT
John,
This is great information and one of the best technical posts this season. Thank you ever so much for taking the time to providing this information. As such you have just won one of my yearly prizes!
Send me an email at skye@fll-freak.com and I will send you a list of items you can choose from. These include a spare rechargable battery, a Bluetooth dongle, and packages of spare LEGO parts.
Congratulations!
And for the rest of you, exceptional posts may yeild you a prize. These include good technical, funny, or otherwise interesting posts.
-Skye
Why does fll allow NXT-G, RIS, and robolab, but not robotc or nxc.
Why allow robolab which is a none lego software and not robotc. I can see why if they only allowed nxt-g and RIS but robolab that just wrong.
Ethan
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/25/2007 19:00:31 GMT
Ethan,
This is often a sore subject with coaches, mentors, and students.
Their are two answeres. Neither is ideal.
1) Since this program is sponsored by LEGO, it was felt that LEGO products (RIS, NXT-G, and Robolab) should be used.
2) It was felt that offering a more complex and difficult language opened up the possibility for adult abuse. That since other languages might be too hard for the kids to learn that the coaches or mentors might step in.
But in the end it does not matter what the reason(s) are. The rules are the rules and we must live with them. If you do not agree with them, I would suggest a well crafted and reasoned email to FIRST.
-Skye - Message by: Fric*ya 09/25/2007 19:23:22 GMT
"Since this program is sponsored by LEGO, it was felt that LEGO products (RIS, NXT-G, and Robolab) should be used."
RobotLab is not by Lego thought.
Ethan - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/25/2007 19:52:55 GMT
Robolab is a product of National Instruments, the same group that makes the NXT-G software. fyi
Laura - Message by:0222520A 09/25/2007 21:04:15 GMT
No, ROBOLAB (note capitalization) is a product of Tuft's university. I know because I was involved in the beta testing for the 2.9 version. It is based on LabView, which is a product of National Instruments. ROBOLAB was the preferred language of the LEGO Education division.
NXT-G is a product of LEGO, produced in conjunction with National Instruments. Like ROBOLAB it is based on LabView.
RCX Code (lets call it RCX-C) is another LEGO product. It's the language that came with the RIS kit. It is a LEGO product, but I'd bet the MIT Media Lab had some input.
Why are ROBOLAB, NXT-G and RCX-C the only programming choices? The only reason that I can come up with is that FLL was not able to limit the programming choices to 1.
Many FLL teams would be school teams. And schools use ROBOLAB, not RCX-C. RCX-C lacked the data logging and analysis capabilities that ROBOLAB has. It was a poor choice for doing the kind of programming that schools needed. You don't want to make your education customer base angry, so ROBOLAB is allowed.
Other FLL teams would be neighborhood or club based. These teams likely have the RCX-C software, not ROBOLAB. You can't ban the software that comes in the box, so RCX-C is allowed.
NXT-G is the new software in the box, so it has to be allowed too. LEGO has I migration path for schools to move from ROBOLAB to NXT-G. NXT-G is to take on more LabView capabilities (probably better data logging and some data analysis tools). FLL probably has a migration path too. Some day RCX will no longer be a choice, ROBOLAB will be gone, and FLL will finally have what it wants. One robot platform and one programming language. - Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/26/2007 19:12:03 GMT
I concur with Dean. I suspect FLL's goal is to get to a single supported language. No future versions of ROBOLAB are planned and NXT-G will be enhanced to provide better datalogging capabilities. NXT-G will also serve as an entry point to the rest of the LabView product line.
In the current environment though, (I believe) ROBOTC is the only language for RCX or NXT that LEGO Education sells that isn't supported as an FLL language. A strong argument can be made that ROBOTC is comparable to ROBOLAB in many ways:
- A "product" of a university (Tufts vs. Carnegie Mellon)
- Sold by LEGO Education
- Supports both RCX and NXT
Given the history that Dean listed though, I think there is an important distinction - I believe ROBOTC has only recently been added as a product that LEGO Education sells. Another important distinction is that ROBOTC is a syntax-based language rather than drag-and-drop.
Personally, I would love to see ROBOTC allowed as a language for FLL. My reason for wanting ROBOTC allowed is because I view it as a great next step for students in their progression toward learning more mainstream programming languages (which I teach). I can still do that with students, just not in the context of FLL.
However, when you are talking about a competition, there is strong benefit to having all teams on as "uniform" a playing field as possible. Each language (and associated firmware) has it's differences. Some of those differences can be directly tied to performance differences for the robots. FLL celebrates the different solutions that teams come up with - it strives to not being about tool selection and hidden competitive advantages. Uniformity of the robot and programming tool is necessary for that focus.
I also believe that "uniformity" is why the starting point for the Research Project is more standardized this year - but that is another topic... ;-)
- Larry Langellier - Message by: NCFIRST 09/27/2007 03:12:54 GMT
Actually, I believe the reason that Robolab was originally allowed when FLL began is because...when the RCX first came out, the language it came with, RIS, was not compatible on a Mac. When Robolab was introduced, it allowed RCX owners using a Mac the chance to also play. So in the beginning, if you were using a Mac, the only choice of language was Robolab.
Marie
who loves her Macs! - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/27/2007 04:23:29 GMT
And Robolab was the only thing that would work on Windows NT.
-Skye - Message by: Fric*ya 09/27/2007 04:29:19 GMT
"Actually, I believe the reason that Robolab was originally allowed when FLL began is because...when the RCX first came out, the language it came with, RIS, was not compatible on a Mac. When Robolab was introduced, it allowed RCX owners using a Mac the chance to also play. So in the beginning, if you were using a Mac, the only choice of language was Robolab."
I think you are the winner thats one of the two good reason that and that schools love robolab
Ethan - Message by: brian001 09/28/2007 01:07:21 GMT
> Their are two answeres. Neither is ideal.
There's at least one more important possibility - that it's arbitrary. Keep in mind that FLL is a simple robot that arbitrarily can only be made of LEGO, running around in a limited domain (4x8) with an arbitrary and highly-formalized set of tasks dealing with small simple structures. If FIRST limits (with little "real world" consideration) the field size, robot construction materials, tasks, and the scoring system, why would it be surprising that there are also somewhat arbitrary constraints on the programming environment?
It might be important to note here that the goal is not to teach kids how to use advanced programming languages, any more than it's important to teach them how to move small pieces of plastic within a 4x8 flat environment marked with a series of solid-colored symbols... it's about teaching things like problem-solving methods, gracious professionalism, cooperation, team building, research (remember that aspect?), etc. The rest is window dressing (although admitedly window dressing that's a lot of fun for kids and adults alike).
--
Brian "if i didn't like arbitrary constraints, why on Earth would I choose only to build with LEGO?" Davis
Having a problem with the robot.
The robot has two motors to turn the wheels and one motor for an arm. The robot is also not balanced. The arm motor hangs off the right side of the robot. The motor speeds had to be changed to compensate for the robot pulling to the side with the most weight -- the right side. B&C have different speeds.
The robot will not go in a straight line. One run it does, the next it does not for the same program. Nothing is different. The alignment is the same, the program is the same. It is very frustrating.
- Message by:0222520A 10/02/2007 03:08:38 GMT
You have three options:
1: Make the robot go straight.
2: Design the missions so they don't depend on the robot going straight.
3: Use additional sensors so the robot doesn't have to depend on going straight.
Most teams choose option 1, which is a mistake. Option 1 is the weakest solution and solves the least number of problems. If you have a robot that can go perfectly straight you still need to make accurate turns and precisely position the robot at the start of the run. And a robot that runs well at home may (will) act differently on a different table at the tournament.
Good teams chose option 2 last season. I saw a lot of high scoring robots that used wall following, wall squaring and self aligning brackets. These teams realize that "close enough" is often "good enough" when a few tweaks are added in.
Option 3 is a viable choice this year. The mat has lots of landmarks that can be used to navigate around. Line following has long been a staple of FLL, but it is not the only form of landmark navigation, and often isn't the best choice. Sometimes just driving to a line, or until you bump into something will get you where you want to go.
But back to the straight line robot question. How well built is your robot? Would you feel comfortable picking it up by one wheel and giving it a little shake? If your robot isn't solid enough to be picked up by a wheel why would you expect the wheels to stay solidly aligned under the robot?
Where is the weight centered on your robot? The best answer is centered between the driving wheels. Weight on the wheels makes them less likely to slip, and wheel slip is bad (unless it is a balance wheel instead of a driving wheel, the slipping is good).
Do your wheels push or pull your robot? Which way do you think will make your robot go straighter? Can you think of an experiment to prove your hypothesis?
Once you get your robot working well you are probably going to want to test it on different surfaces. If it works on the table and on a slippery floor it is less likely to be affected by things like dust on the mat, or changes in humidity or temperature.
How much is your robot effected if the table isn't flat. No table is perfectly flat, and some aren't even close.
I could go on, but this should be enough to get started. Robot design is something that even 6th year been to the World Festival in Atlanta teams still get wrong on occasion. Don't despair when things don't work as expected. Think of it as another great opportunity to learn.
Dean Hystad - Message by: MindstormTroopers1928 10/02/2007 14:24:13 GMT
Dean:
Thanks so much. I will pose some of questions to the team and see where they go from there. They had previously tried the follow the line with light sensors (worked ok) and moved on to the one that is currently the issue -- go straight, turn when wall detected using different sensors.
Cathy - Message by: awesome5188aces 10/31/2007 19:03:43 GMT
well im new so i don't know whats the best way to do this, but we found that for the oil drilling mission it was hard to get over to the side with the thing you have to hit. What i thought that we could do is place the the arm in the middle to even out the weight but then turn it out after it was off of the robot so it goes to the right. that way most of the weight was on the middle of the robot. I dont know how well this will work but i thought it might. we haven't got the arm built yet but i hope that it will work. then the next problem was getting it to pull then stuff back! thats what i think but im no expert.XD - Message by: HighlandHuskies1552 12/10/2007 21:25:48 GMT
That mission turned out to be one of our team's most reliable mission. The challenge is that if you drop one of the barrels into the ocean, it's a 40 point deduction (ouch). So, we have a massive catch net jig that covers every conceivable space underneath the platform, and we have a forked wedge in front to force the jig to position itself perfectly in front of the platform. Then we have a sledge hammer on the left side that comes down with the help of a little "shaking" by the robot. To control the force of the impact, we positioned an adjustable shock absorber on the left front end of the jig, and have an adjustable stand for the sledge hammer to lean on (for sensitivity control). When we go from base to the oil platform, we purposely drift left and slide against the wall in order to reach the oil platform at the correct angle. The fork in front locks the jig in place, and the sledge hammer comes down when the robot shakes it a little. After the hammer hit, we had to make sure we wait long enough to catch the oil barrels. Then the robot simply pulls straight back and go home. And yes, be careful that the sledge hammer might get caught by the oil platform. We shaped the sledge hammer accordingly and wrap a layer of ribbon cable around it so it can slide easily out of the oil platform.
It worked perfectly in most of the runs - except one when the kid forgot to raise the sledge hammer before starting (DONG!!!)
If only our other jigs performed as good, we might just qualify to go to regional! - Message by: HighlandHuskies1552 12/10/2007 21:06:34 GMT
I totally agree with Dean. Our team spent a lot of time making the robot work straight and we finally got it to move pretty straight - only to see it failed mystically and miseribly during competition. An air bubble here, a non-even grading over there, an unexpected skid, a little dust or small debris (not kidding) here and there - can all contribute to throw the robot off-course. Not to mention the unexpected sloth between gears, uneven weight distributions, latent response from the motor (dead-band) - plus a gazillion other factors. Our mistake was to spend so much time working on making the robot go straight that we didn't spent enough time focusing on doing the missions. That, along with unexpected problems throw at us by Robolab, has made this year a poor performaning year for us (BUT WE WILL BE BACK!!!)
I watched in amazement Sunday how the top performing team this year did their trick. They have a rather massive RCX robot that roams around veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy slowly but this robot gets to where it needs to go very accurately. I was told that it maxes out on sensors (light, rotation, and multiple touch sensors). When it gets there, it just do its tricks. They only have to change jig once and eventhough it moved so very slowly, it completed all but one (the oil platform) mission and scored 386 points!!!
So, from our painful experience, I would say don't worry so much that the robot isn't walking straight - just get it to work straight enough and focus on utilizing landmarks to help. sliding along the wall is a wonderful way of walking straight!
BTW: An interesting thing about that team. They divided their team members into two groups. Team 1 is named "Future Engineers of America - RCX", and team 2 is named "Future Engineers of America - NXT" and entered to compete with each other. They took home 1st and 2nd place robot performance award with the NXT team won only by 5 points: 385 vs 380!!! However, the RCX team took home the 1st place overall award.
These two teams were wonderful.
The following is a quote from the the NXT software announcement on the MINDSTORM NXT section of the US FLL site:
"Teams who purchase the NXT Robot Set in 2007 will be sent a free upgrade when it is introduced in September. In the meantime, teams should practice using the current version of the software included in the NXT Robot Set."
Has anyone received this?
Do I need to do anything to obtain the upgrade -- I purchased two kits in June 2007?
Thanks,
Cathy
where can I learn to use a light sensor? do you reccomend a certain web site? Thanks!
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/10/2007 01:07:32 GMT
Both the www.hightechkids.org and the www.ortop.org websited have information/tutorials. So do some of the NXT blog sites.
-Skye
My team uses LEGO MINDSTORMS Education NXT V1.1. The programs have gotten complex enough to use MyBlocks as subroutines. At every team session we make drastic changes to the programs. Sometimes the changes are not good, so we keep a backup copy. We discovered the "Manage Profiles" feature and "User Profile" selection. This seemed perfect. It is really just a subdirectory under the root: "LEGO Creations" - "MINDSTORMS Projects" - "Profiles" - "MyProfileName". We name the profiles by the date and copy the whole previous directory forward ("MyBlocks" is a subdirectory under each profile). So far, so good... Now, since the school has a computer lab, we have kids developing on different PC's and saving their work to a shared drive. Here's the bad news. When the updated MyBlock is copied from the shared drive to the dated profile, SOMETIMES the download tool gets confused and compiles the wrong source. The development environment looks fine, but the NXT runs the wrong MyBlock. We make changes on the PC, re-download, and nothing changes. If we delete the old MyBlock file SOMETIMES diagnostic error dialogs popup on the PC. At this point, we have to re-create all the MyBlocks for the current profile. It is very frustrating to make excuses for the software to kids who want to believe it is reliable. Has anyone else seen this or solved this?
- Message by: HCA3835 11/30/2007 21:21:48 GMT
We've also had the problem with NXT-G v.1.1 looking into the default profile directory for My Blocks instead of the current profile directory. Our problem was that we copied a whole profile from one directory to another. The settings.ini file is copied also and that file points to the old directory for data. So the solution was to copy only the user-generated files into the new profile. You can check by opening the settings.ini file located in each profile directory and see where the data directory field is pointing. You can edit this file to fix broken links, but don't edit it while NXT-G is running or it will not see your changes. - Message by:0222520A 11/30/2007 22:10:15 GMT
I have seen this happen also. What works for me is to close all the open files, change to a different profile and then change back.
Folder: NXT) NXT-G Questions 03/25/2008 20:04:37 GMT
Discussion: new software already? By: 01D3B26C 09/02/2007 00:01:01 GMT
I just got a notification that my NXT software update has shipped! I heard it had been put off till October, so this seems pretty early! Of course, I'm happy about it!
David
- Message by: hoffman1702 08/22/2007 04:03:20 GMT
Mine has been shipped as well...and I was wondering if anyone knows...will this work with Vista and the new Intel Macs? I'm running on Mac, but we are trying to find a cheap PC laptop to dedicate to FLL. Right now I'm running OS X Tiger, but bluetooth is not picking up the brick. Anyone else have this problem?
Anyone know if the new software will fix the bluetooth issue as well?
Cynthia
1st time coach! - Message by: PISDFLL1357 08/22/2007 16:51:28 GMT
NXT Software 1.1 is native on Intel Macs for certain and I'm pretty sure it supports Vista.
I suspect it *might* fix your Bluetooth issue, but then I've had no problems with NXT 1.0 on my Intel iMac running OS X 10.4. - Message by: hoffman1702 08/26/2007 02:57:57 GMT
Just so all the Mac people get this info...I called the Tech Services number on the new software and they walked me through the Bluetooth setup. Operator error! I was getting recognition on both the brick and my Intel MacBook (running OSX 10.4.10), I just allowed a red message at the bottom to interfere with continuing the setup.
The Tech Services guy walked me through it and I am cooking!
Now to use it with the robot.
Thanks,
Cynthia - Message by:01D3B26C 08/22/2007 21:14:50 GMT
I'm not sure about the Mac issue, but I sure hope we can use more than just the crappy windows bluetooth stack with this new release. There are much better stacks out there that should work just fine and will allow me to use more types of devices on my laptop.
David - Message by:01D3B26C 08/29/2007 15:53:31 GMT
I've tested on my laptop that has a Toshiba bluetooth stack installed. The NXT software won't find the brick with this installed. Looks like I'll have to back it out and revert to the Win XP stack (though it sounds like the widcomm stack will work) - Message by: Firedroids 59 08/26/2007 00:16:13 GMT
I have a one year old 17 inch Intel IMAC with OS X Tiger 10.4.something and it does not connect to the NXT either. If you find a cheap portable laptop that connects with Bluetooth, let me know. Beware of new Dell laptops; they are not compatible with the NXT. - Message by: hoffman1702 08/26/2007 03:00:00 GMT
Call the Tech Support number on the new software...they walked me through it and it works fine. I'm was in exactly the same boat. There's no reason why it shouldn't work.
C - Message by: under pressure 1131 08/28/2007 04:38:04 GMT
Define "new Dell laptops" What do you mean by "not compatible with NXT"? We bought our Dell last season and were planning to purchase a second one in a week or so.
Michelina Beam
Coach Under Pressure
North Bay, Ontario - Message by:01BB3A8C 09/02/2007 00:01:01 GMT
Our 2 year old Dell laptop is still running Windows' XP and we are not having any issues. The new NXT software also works just fine on the new Dell Desktop that is about a month old and uses Vista.
I was wondering what other team did with the NXT to be able to run start the next program faster. I know some team made it so when you hit the nxt button on the right it ands a veriable and then you hit the nxt orange button it runs that my block.
My question is how do I. First add a variable if i bump the right nxt button and subtract a variable if i bump the left nxt button. Then I want it to run my block 1 or my block 2 depending on if the number is 1 or 2.
Can and one send me a screenshoot of how to do that or help me figure out how to add a variable and then have the nxt read that.
Thanks,
Ethan Steckmann
- Message by:0222520A 08/24/2007 04:30:53 GMT
Ethan,
Jumping from the NXTStep forum to the FLL forum in an attempt to escape my ever vigilant eye? Won't work buddy. I'm everywhere. Stop asking for screen shots. This is a question you can answer yourself.
Ask yourself "How can I find out if the right button was pressed?" Here's a hint, on the NXT the buttons are treated like they a special touch sensor. One more hint. There are different sensor block actions. You may be most interested in "Bumped".
As to variables, read the help files. They show how to MANAGE variables, and what different TYPES of variables there are. What type of variable to you think you can do MATH with. In case you're wondering the capitalized words are important.
Dean Hystad - Message by: Fric*ya 08/24/2007 04:47:31 GMT
I know that you dont like me/me asking for screen shots but i cant help that but will try and post more about how its comming here is my program for now and it works ok but i would like to be able to add more programs then the first two the top of the program work then i added the second half os the and that doesnt work o well im morking on it.
Ethan - Message by:0222520A 08/24/2007 06:55:16 GMT
Ethan,
Glad to see you putting in some work. I looked at your program and you are on the right track. You have the switch statements that are watching for the button presses, you have loops that are checking many times for button presses, and you are drawing information to the screen to tell the operator what is going on. You are getting close, but you are missing a few key points and that is making things way to hard on you.
First off, how many loops do you really want? If you were the NXT, how would you check for the button pushes, all at the same time or one at a time? There are some problems associated with running multiple threads of execution (branching off) in NXT programs. Multi-threading can be very powerful, but sometimes it is not the best way to solve a problem.
But your major sticking point is what to do when the buttons get pressed. Here a little abstraction is called for.
Abstraction is a very powerful programming tool. Without abstraction even simple problems become so complex that we haven't a hope for solving them. With abstraction we are able to simplify the problem to something that we can handle. You need an abstraction for what mission you want to run.
In the RCX days we didn't have to worry about this. You had 5 program slots and a button that changed the program slot. If you were in slot 1 and pushed the button it changed to program slot 2. You could tell it changed to slot 2 because the number 2 was displayed on the screen. Press the button again it the program slot changed to 3. When you got to the correct program slot you pressed the run button and the program ran.
Is this a workable abstraction? Giving each program or mission a number adding one to the number each time you press a button? Heck, we can do better than that because we have three buttons instead of two. We can have an add one button and a subtract one button. The third button is the run mission button.
So now you have a workable abstraction. How do you come up with an implimentation? Your example program shows that you know how to loop and check if a button was pressed. You also know how to write to the screen. All that is left is adding or subtracting from the program number. How do you do that? You need a place to keep the program number. A place that keeps the program number until you need it. In NXT speak we call these things variables. A variable holds a thing (logic, text or number) until you need to use it.
Take a good look at the variable block and it's help text. Then take another stab at your program. I would first try to just get a number to change using the buttons, and draw the number on the screen. When you get that working you are almost done.
Good Luck,
Dean Hystad - Message by: Fric*ya 08/24/2007 08:17:56 GMT
thanks i will do that and let you now how it goes thanks for your help and not just saying stop asking for screen shots.
i will post my new file when i get is working or if i need help so if you could check back often that would be great or if i could get your email/skype/gmail chat then i could just ask you.
ethan
my email is mindstormmaster1@gmail.com
o and check out my site @ mindstormmaster1.freeweb7.com - Message by: 7 guys and a robot3367 10/05/2007 21:08:52 GMT
Hello FLL forums,
As a fellow student and FLL member, I was wondering about the ruling on adding basic wings to the NXT robot to make it more original. Would this be allowed in competition?
love,
someone
P.S. It would be TROGDOR the robot!
I was wondering what other team did with the NXT to be able to run start the next program faster. I know some team made it so when you hit the nxt button on the right it ands a veriable and then you hit the nxt orange button it runs that my block.
My question is how do I. First add a variable if i bump the right nxt button and subtract a variable if i bump the left nxt button. Then I want it to run my block 1 or my block 2 depending on if the number is 1 or 2.
Can and one send me a screenshoot of how to do that or help me figure out how to add a variable and then have the nxt read that.
Thanks,
Ethan Steckmann
- Message by: brian001 09/12/2007 00:33:14 GMT
Well, have you tried something like writing a program that assigns a value to a variable, and then reads and displays that on the screen? And if you can do that, try making a program that reads a value from a variable, adds one, and then writes that new value to the variable (& again displays it to the screen). You've got a good idea... try to puzzle out a good way to start learning the tools you need.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: 09/13/2007 23:59:23 GMT
Deleted - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/14/2007 17:25:44 GMT
Be very careful using these examples in your programs. If the kids can not explain what the guts of the program are doing, they will be seriously downgraded in their technical scores.
If you want your team to use these concepts, teach them how to do the work themselves, don't let the team copy the code and don't make the blocks for the kids.
It is better to have them switch programs the old fashion way rather than use code they did not write themselves.
Laura - Message by: Fric*ya 09/14/2007 17:43:27 GMT
Florida FLL Partner you are very right. I would never do that to my team.
Ethan - Message by: brian001 09/15/2007 04:26:33 GMT
Good, because the author of those examples might be involved with FLL as well ;-).
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Fric*ya 09/15/2007 04:59:29 GMT
"Good, because the author of those examples might be involved with FLL as well"
Ya because you wrote them and you are a judge.
But not to fear my team is super smart and will figure it out in no time at all
Ethan - Message by: brian001 09/15/2007 15:20:57 GMT
Just make sure that your team can work it out for themselves, from scratch. The idea is that they can work out the problems - not that they can see a solution, and then see how it works, but that they can *derive a solution in the first place*. For instance, the way I did it is not the only one - or even a particularly good solution. If you show this to your team (or use it yourself), you will be sharply limiting the number of solutions you can come up with for the problem.
If instead you treat it as an example of what's possible, and assure your team it's possible and "why don't we figure out how to work it out", well... *then* you are developing your team's skills at problem solving - not just at "solution understanding". As a teacher, trust me, there's a huge difference between those two... and FLL is about the former.
I'm not worried about you being "caught" by a judge, and that shouldn't really be the motivation for working it out - it's the fact that in FLL, it's not just the solutions you come up with but *how you arrive at those solutions* that is the important lesson.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Fric*ya 09/15/2007 16:42:23 GMT
Ok great idea I will do that.
Ethan - Message by: zap4702 09/15/2007 17:09:10 GMT
There was a lot of discussion around this issue last year (how to do it, and how much help to provide to teams). Find it here:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee99d5a
The thread is in the Programming>NXT folder and is called something like Memory Limitations.
If you read through that discussion, you will find many suggestions for how to introduce the pertinent ideas to your team so they can figure it out on their own.
Doreen,
Team ZAP!
Has anyone installed V1.05 to their bricks? Does the upgrade reboot the brick and necessitate a re-download of previously stored routines? Are there performance (runtime) differences in legacy routines under the new firmware?
- Message by: PISDFLL1357 08/28/2007 16:29:34 GMT
Applying the firmware update will erase your existing downloaded programs from the brick. If you really can't lose them, you can use the Communications Page to upload .RXE files to your PC, then manually re-download them that way. If you have the original RBT files, though, it's easier to just open those up and download them again manually.
Firmware 1.05 should be 100% compatible with the earlier official firmware. The main difference is that sound files can now be compressed to save space on the brick. - Message by: brian001 09/12/2007 00:02:32 GMT
> If you have the original RBT files, though, it's easier to
> just open those up and download them again manually.
In fact, I'd recommend it, as 1.1 does a significantly better job at compiling things (the resulting files are smaller, and faster). I'm not sure if this requires new blocks, or if it will optomize "legacy" programs drawn under 1.0. Could anyone out there do a test (I have no "legacy" programs left I fear).
--
Brian Davis - Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 04:10:03 GMT
Legacy programs compile fine, and the space savings are significant. But the real improvement is in usability. Our team wrote a big mission manager program with individual mission MyBlocks. This used to take almost a minute to load. Now it comes up in about 10 seconds.
Dean Hystad - Message by:0175DA2B 09/25/2007 17:43:59 GMT
My group of kids were trained last year using Mindstorm NXT retail kits. The v1.0 software in those boxes had nice building instructions for several models -- Tribot with claws, Scorpion, Humanoid, etc. I bought the new v1.1 Lego Mindstorms Edu NXT software but the building instructions are missing in this "upgrade." This is a major disappointment. Are the building instructions for those models available on the internet someplace? Otherwise I'll try figuring out how to keep both versions installed.
The retail-vs-educational versions of software and the hardware inventories of both kinds of kits is a continuous source of pain. - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/26/2007 12:50:12 GMT
The building instructions are available on the web. Someone posted a link to them in another thread.
-Skye - Message by: brian001 09/26/2007 20:10:20 GMT
The other thing you could probably do is just drag the old "Academy" content out of the old installation, and graft it into the new installation in place of what's there. A number of folks have done this (or even created their own Academy content from scratch).
--
Brian Davis - Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/26/2007 19:16:36 GMT
You can get them at LEGO Ed West:
http://www.legoedwest.com/download.php
- Larry Langellier
We just installed our NXT-G 1.1 upgrade and upgraded our bricks' firmware to 1.05. We couldn't find anything on the CD or in the help about the 100 new features that are mentioned on the LEGO Web site. Does anybody know of a Web page or document that lists the new features?
- Message by: brian001 09/11/2007 23:59:35 GMT
To my knowledge, there isn't a list or source... yet. This might be a great thread for teams to post new feature descriptions to as they find them, generating such a list. Some of the examples I do know about:
0) You can finally wire text into My Blocks without crashing things!
1) The "Block import/export" tool has been upgraded, to remove installed blocks, as well as organize them.
2) If you try to draw a wire to a block far "downstream", hovering the wire tool near the right edge of the screen induces it to auto-scroll. Same with dragging and dropping new blocks.
Other contributions?
--
Brian Davis - Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 04:06:27 GMT
The GUI runs a lot faster than before and crashes much less often.
I think it's going to be really hard to get up to 100 new features. We've been using it for several months and can't come up with 10?
Dean Hystad - Message by: brian001 09/12/2007 14:05:59 GMT
I'm certain we can come up with more than 10, actually, but I'd agree that a lot of the "improvements" are probably nearly invisible things "under the hood", like in the efficiency of the compilier. But here's still more...
5) Plugs in My Blocks now try to take their inital name from the plug they are aired into within the My Block, instead of just a generic default name. Saves on renaming a lot of plugs, actually.
6) Sound files are compressed under 1.1 (yes, that's a function of both the FW to play them, and NXT-G to put them on the brick in that format).
7) Auto-wiring is greatly improved, with far far fewer instances of broken wires, or wires ending up hidden behind structures like Switches or Loops.
8) Bluetooth communication now works on Intel-based Macs (not to mention making the environment *much* faster on these machines).
9) When you "mouse over" the tabs on a multi-tab Switch, these now pop up appropriate labels, making it much easier to select which tab you want to edit.
I'll let somebody else push the list to 10 :-).
The point is there are actually a lot of things added ,corrected, or improved, but you have to *look* for them, rather closely, as well as remember that it *didn't* work that way under 1.0. Honestly, the environment was already so feature-rich, discovering new "features" could be a fun game.
--
Brian Davis - Message by:0222520A 09/14/2007 05:34:43 GMT
My problem is that I don't have anything to compare against. I kept installing and uninstalling the beta version on every computer I could get my hands on (boy was that fun). About the only new features that really jumped out is that it doesn't start up with the robot educator window opened, and the automatic naming of data plugs in a MyBlock.
I wish there was a way to turn off the automatic wiring layout. It's much better, but still annoying if all you want to do is take a peak at the data plugs.
Dean Hystad - Message by: brian001 09/14/2007 14:33:39 GMT
> My problem is that I don't have anything to compare against.
Yep. Now you know why I started a thread for *others* to fill in the blanks that folks like Dean and I no longer can. Like you Dean, I've done so many installs and even custom hacks that I'm no longer sure what is a "stock" change and what is an accident of my installation history.
> I wish there was a way to turn off the automatic wiring layout.
> It's much better, but still annoying if all you want to do is take
> a peak at the data plugs.
I agree completely, although try this: Click on a datahub to pull it down and check all the plugs on it. It messed up all your nice wiring? Instead of clicking on the datahub to put it away again, try using Undo from the menu (or command-Z on my Mac). It "undoes" it's rewiring as well. But I think that might have been a feature under 1.0 as well (can anybody else, who still has a 1.0 install, tell us?)
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Fric*ya 09/12/2007 04:08:34 GMT
How did you get it months ago.
Ethan - Message by: WattsUp2007 09/12/2007 04:24:50 GMT
Hope we can find more new things -- it's pretty odd not to have a list somewhere. If "crashes less" is most of what we're getting, it should have been a free, not $20, upgrade...! - Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 05:09:17 GMT
Brian and I were part of the software test program. We were also in the MDP program, so you can blame a tiny part of problems you've had with NXT in the past on my inadequate testing. But I have to say that the V1.0 software was amazingly robust compared with some of the betas. MDP was one of LEGO's most brilliant ideas.
Dean Hystad - Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 05:17:39 GMT
I never have understood why "crashes less" is not viewed as an extremely valuable upgrade. Features I find most useful in software are:
1. Performs the task it was designed for.
2. Doesn't crash often (all software crashes, some just so infrequently that you haven't experienced it yet).
3. Is easy to use
NXT-G V1.1 made improvements in all three categories. Sounds like a great deal at $20. Remember that the old software works fine, it's just that the new software works better. - Message by: Fric*ya 09/12/2007 05:37:21 GMT
The best fetures i have found are.
1_smart edge scroll
2_if you are on the advanced pallet like I also am) next time you restart nxt_g 1.1 it remembers that you were on advanced.
3_the block are smaller
4_blocks are the same size as mini blocks before but they run faster
6_easyer to import mini blocks
7_dosnt crash every 10seconds on vista like 1.0 did ya
8_the environment runs smother ie the block with the download button moves to the side whan you close the side bar moves a lot smother
9_I cant think of a 9 o well 8 is ok but that still leaves 92+ improvments. for the rest of you to find.
things I want
The edge scroll is nice but I liked how on RIS you never had to switch cursur you use the same pointer everytime and that when you moved your cursor to the edge of the screen it would move the screen and i wish nxt_g 1.1 could do that.
Ethan - Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 05:59:01 GMT
Become the master of MyBlocks and the edge scrolling won't be such a big issue. I seldom write a program that doesn't fit on one page. That includes all the missions and mission manager for last years challenge. But I do sometimes cheat and arrange the blocks in two or three rows. - Message by: geewhiz826 09/20/2007 01:42:51 GMT
More on this in another thread, but the biggest incentive to use single-page as a goal for a program is to allow the printing of the program to occupy a single landscape page comfortably. The wider your program, the more absurd the html and/or rtf file print of it becomes.
I see other threads indicating teams already have the new software version in hand. Where is everyone ordering the new software from? I didn't see it as a line item when we registered and ordered out new field setup kit.
Thanks, Jon.
- Message by: FloridaModirator 09/04/2007 21:12:03 GMT
If you purchased your NXT this year through the FLL site, you have the new software. If not you can order it from www.pitsco.com
Laura - Message by: ECA Hawks 09/04/2007 21:33:00 GMT
We got our NXT last year... I'm ordering the new software right now. Thanks for the link.
Jon.
This is probably a dumb question but is there a difference in the version of the NXT-G software (version 1.0 or 1.1) that comes with our team kits vs. the software that comes with a store bought retail package?
Thanks, Jon.
- Message by: FloridaModirator 09/04/2007 21:13:48 GMT
Yes, the difference is in the help text. The retail package comes with building instruction on the far right for 3 models. The educational set comes with more educational steps to learn the different sensors and such.
Laura - Message by: ECA Hawks 09/04/2007 21:34:00 GMT
Thanks.
Jon. - Message by:0222520A 09/04/2007 21:45:00 GMT
Whether you purchased your kit from Pitsco or a retail outlet you will definitely want to upgraded your software to V1.1. The upgrade cost is only $20 and the new software is faster and less buggy than the old.
If you are upgrading from the retail version of NXT-G you get the added bonus of getting Robot Educator instead of Spike, Tribot, Alpha Rex instructions. Robot educator is much better for leaning how to use the various programming blocks.
Teams that bought FLL NXT kits this year will receive the upgrade for free. - Message by: tank3270 09/13/2007 07:04:18 GMT
Will the educational upgrade to v1.1 also work with the retail version?
We're using our own robots and most families are hesitant to buy the educational version of the software. We can't find the v1.1 for the retail version in the LEGO online store. - Message by:0222520A 09/13/2007 08:01:36 GMT
The upgrade is a total software replacement. It works with any NXT. - Message by: supernanobotextremes668 09/23/2007 05:10:59 GMT
So does this mean that if you have a retail kit and install the upgrade, you'll no longer be able to access the four retail bot BI's from the software? ( You'll have to download them from the web )
thanks
David - Message by:0222520A 09/23/2007 05:22:48 GMT
Depends on how you install the new software. LEGO recommends you do an uninstall first. You could copy the robot instructions to another directory before doing this. Some folks install the retal and education software side by side. - Message by:0175DA2B 09/25/2007 18:14:26 GMT
Where are those building instructions on the web? - Message by: supernanobotextremes668 09/25/2007 19:16:43 GMT
http://www.legoeducation.info/nxt/resources/building-guides/ - Message by: lightsavers2634 10/06/2007 04:44:19 GMT
Being the cheap kid that I am, I'll just wait another year for version 1.2 to come out. The sad thing is, I'll say the same thing next year.
-David (the kid) - Message by: brian001 09/11/2007 23:52:39 GMT
One other difference is that I believe the educational software comes with the legacy blocks (to run the older RCX sensors from the NXT-G environment) already installed, although these can also be added to the retail version of the software. They are availible as a download from LEGO:
http://mindstorms.lego.com/support/updates/
--
Brian Davis
The Mini-blocks that some used last season to reduce the program size are probably still compatible, but are they needed? In other words, should we put the time into loading them into NXT-G 1.1 or is that not worth it anymore?
Does anyone have a size comparison (or better yet, a speed comparison) with them?
Thanks!
- Message by:0222520A 09/06/2007 01:52:40 GMT
Think this question falls into the category of "You decide". Doing a size and/or speed comparison sounds like a good exercise. I did this with the V1.0 software and it only takes a few hours.
Dean Hystad - Message by: Fric*ya 09/12/2007 04:10:52 GMT
No the motor blocks that come with nxt-g 1.1 are as small as the mini blocks and they run faster then the mini block so you dont need them.
!!!THEY ARE FOR NXT-Q 1.1 ONLY!!!
Ethan - Message by: Quantumbots3047 09/13/2007 23:56:16 GMT
Also, under Q&A section it states the miniblocks don't come with the set and are therfore against the rules. So you couldn't use them anyways.(we didn't know this)
The Quantum Bots 3047
N Ridgeville OH - Message by:0222520A 09/14/2007 04:59:07 GMT
Notice how the Q&A never directly addresses the question. Instead it rambles about how we should play fair, but goes about saying this in a rather unsavory way. I guess it is unfair to have kids who are smart and have spent the time to learn how to program.
FLL makes the rules, and I'll play by them. But I can do without the lame justifications.
And by the way, the logic supposedly disallowing miniblocks would also disallow firmware updates or using the V1.1 upgrade. Anything downloaded from LEGO tech support should be allowed.
Dean Hystad - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/14/2007 17:34:43 GMT
Unfortunately, FLL gets many questions that justify the lengthy response in that Q&A. I agree that it rambles, but there is a clear message in the ramble - the kids do the work. The 1.1 upgrade is allowed as it was shipped as part of this years sets.
But any custom blocks down loaded from the 100 sites out there with really cool things on them are not allowed. Nor is copying the content block by block with out the understanding of what they do.
The kids need to do the work.
Laura - Message by: crazycreators252 09/15/2007 01:55:51 GMT
How do you go about removing the mini blocks from your NXT-G software if you already have the mini blocks installed? I hope its not Uninstall the NXT-G Software, delete all the folders that the uninstall doesn't take care of and then reload the NXT-G Version 1.0 Software followed by the 1.1 update software. - Message by: brian001 09/15/2007 04:25:05 GMT
If you have 1.1 installed, check out the Import/export tool under the Tools menu. If memory serves, that now has the option to delete previously added blocks (I guess that's another thing to add to the "new features" list).
--
Brian Davis - Message by: 09/15/2007 17:03:36 GMT
Deleted - Message by: crazycreators252 09/15/2007 17:06:28 GMT
Thanks, There was a button to remove them.
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
I thought that I had heard that the latest upgrade of NXT-G that just came out would be able to be used for BOTH NXT and RCX bricks.
Did I just hear this wrong? Can NXT-G be used to program RCX? It feels like a silly question, because I know they have different capabilities...but I've got several old RCX bricks from past years in addition to a new NXT brick. I'd love to be able to program both with the same software.
- Message by: Fric*ya 09/13/2007 04:25:57 GMT
I dont know but if you could that would be sweet - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/13/2007 13:03:49 GMT
No NXTG can't program the RCX. What you are probably thinking about is the latest version of RoboLab that can target both systems.
-Skye - Message by: geewhiz826 09/20/2007 02:03:50 GMT
Or perhaps you were hearing about support for the RCX's sensors and motors in the educational NXT version. The legacy sensors and motors are controllable by the NXT with the use of adapter cables AND the software's programming blocks. The RCX bricks themselves have no support by the NXT-G language.
Has anyone yet gone through the process of REMOVING the ego standard updates (the ones from manufacturer, i..(http://mindstorms.lego.com/Support/Updates/) We have the old version of NET (whatever it was, 1.0?) I was trying to be a good coach and get everything "clean" for the beginning of the season, and it turns out (QA22) that these updates are not legal for the robot game.... however, I remember that at least some of these updates came with "hard to remove" warnings (who know I'd want to remove a bug fix?) and the Lego company's mini-blocks are added/removed in a strange way. If someone else has succeeded (or run into problems I should know about in advance!!!), please share your experience. Currently, I'm figuring on just backing up the programs, uninstalling and deleting everything and starting from scratch, but I've run into programs like this (e.g. IS!!!) that did unexpected things to the system when you do that.
I've read the discussion on the other strands, which are mainly about the fairness issues, but my team is already pretty maniacal about keeping my involvement to a minimum... I'm just looking for technical help to clean up a mistake I made---without crashing my machine too badly, since I need it for work, too. Thanks for any help!!!
- Message by:0222520A 09/19/2007 04:12:04 GMT
Update to V1.1 is the easiest way. Or you could uninstall and reinstall. Uninstall does not delete the profiles, MyBlocks or programs. Otherwise just tell your team not to use the miniblocks. I've got tons of stuff on my V1.1 install that is not allowed in FLL.
Dean Hystad - Message by: geewhiz826 09/20/2007 01:34:26 GMT
I've already updated firmware to 1.05 on both the team's NXTs as advised for compatibility with the NXT-G 1.1 update. QA22 is provocative alright, but if the new NXT's move blocks are compact enough, there may be no call for the mini versions in question. Until the team runs out of room (HARD), I'm not broaching the subject of memory economy, other than to say that adding sounds is expensive.
Maybe sometime, I'll get the time to do a bare install to see what actually comes in the "kit/set." There are bigger fish to fry in the meantime. - Message by:0222520A 09/21/2007 23:59:38 GMT
Hooray! NXT updates from LEGO or NI are allowed (see the Q&A). I still strongly suggest upgrading to V1.1. It is so much easier to use. - Message by: redrobots2969 11/25/2007 18:33:03 GMT
We are using NXT-G v1.1 but firmware v1.01 and were wondering if we should upgrade the firmware to v1.05? Also note that our Qualifying Tournament is this coming Saturday, 12/1. When I checked out the Lego web site it says the following:
"Description
Updating to LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT Firmware V1.05 will improve the following:
- Multiple datafile control within user programs
- Communication with 3rd party external devices
- Bluetooth communication within user programs
NOTE: Only update your firmware if you have experienced issues related to the above."
Since I don't know if I'm really experiencing the problems described should I really upgrade? and before a tournament?
The only trouble we are currently having really is setting up 6 MyBlocks within one program using 3 sensors (2 touch & 1 light OR 2 touch & 1 sonic OR 2 touch & SELECT button, etc.). We are using 3 WAIT FOR blocks for the 3 sensors branched out onto 3 separate lines and then after each of those there are 2 more WAIT FOR blocks branched out separately. We added a sound block after each WAIT FOR block so we can debug the program and here is where we discovered our problem.
We start the program by pressing the SELECT button of course and the program then waits for the first input. For example, we press touch sensor on port #3 and the robot says "3", then we press the touch sensor on port #2 and the robot says "2" and finally we press the touch sensor on port #2 and the robot says "2.2.2.2" and the program starts and then halts.
The same thing happened using the ultrasonic sensor which points down at the table. After the program is started by the SELECT button we lift the ultrasonic sensor to obtain a distance greater than 30 inches and the robot says "inches", then we press the touch sensor on port #2 and the robot again says "2.2.2.2" and the program starts and then stops right away.
First, why would the sensors be reading multiple touches when we only press it once and second, why does the program in the robot care that it has been touched again when it should be running the program?
I've read some of the forum postings regarding this and I don't know variables well enough myself as a coach let alone teach it to the kids. Of course I don't want the kids to just copy someone's code because neither I or them will learn anything from it.
Phil Martin, Co-Coach
Red Robots #2969 - Message by:0222520A 11/25/2007 20:37:35 GMT
I had a touch sensor read problem on port 2 that I couldn't figure out. I saw that I was using old firware, updated and the problem went away.
Greetings All!
I was wondering if anyone out there had created Program Block Worksheets, so the a program could be built on paper before it is loaded into the computer. (i.e. A MOVE block that give a place to write in your settings, port, direction, speed, etc.)
Before we go through the brain damage of creating them, I thought I would ask.
Since we have limited computers for our two teams, if would be nice if the kids could build the program on paper, do walkthroughs with other people for logic testing, and then load it into the compter.
Thanks
Chris
- Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/19/2007 18:56:09 GMT
LEGO Education sells 1" and 2" ROBOLAB Icon Magnets and a magnetic board, but I'm not aware of anything like that for NXT-G. It sounds like something that would be a great resource!
- Larry Langellier - Message by:0222520A 09/19/2007 20:06:40 GMT
Maybe you should back up and rethink your strategy. Last year my team did most of their programming using a tape measure and a compass. They measured distances and angles at the table, wrote these in a notebook, and did a quick sketch of the program. Writing the program on the computer usually took about 10 minutes. Two or three rounds of testing was usually enough for fine tuning. From start to finish they could do most missions in about an hour. Not once did they ever enter a duration in a MOVE block.
Now how did they do that?
Dean Hystad - Message by: hoffman1702 09/20/2007 00:01:30 GMT
Dean,
Neophyte here. The last programming I did was with punch cards! My son, Dene (!), started down this road this summer. He worked out how far the robot would travel in x number of seconds at x speed and then made a table. Is this on the same track as you are thinking or not? They could do the same thing with other moves, and then just use the data to program simple moves around the board, then add on the more complex moves as appropriate to solve the challenge.
Or is there something else here that I'm missing?
Cynthia - Message by:0222520A 09/20/2007 01:00:52 GMT
Cynthia,
This information could be very useful. Especially in the early planning stages. "The robot has to drive this far. How long should we expect that to take?" But it is not what I was talking about.
Ask Dene if it makes any sense to measure distance in seconds or rotations or degrees. At my coaches training classes I have the coaches measure their height in degrees. Then we change the size of the wheel attached to the motor/sensor and they see they are a new number of degrees tall. Their height didn't change, why should the number? Ahh! Maybe motor rotation or degrees is not such a good way to measure distance.
Let him noodle that one for a while. He sounds like a bright kid. I bet he'll come up with something interesting.
Dean Hystad - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/20/2007 14:18:37 GMT
Cynthia,
What I think you are missing is the ability of the NXT MOVE icon to take in a distance (in wheel rotations or degrees). Since the NXT motors have built in rotation sensors/odometers you can ask to move set distances with "resonable" accuracy and repeatability.
With a MOVE block you can simply ask to move 2.5 wheel rotations. You don't have to say move for 4.87 seconds at 75% power.
Now all you have to figure out is how far a robot travels per wheel rotation or per wheel degree.
-Skye - Message by: hoffman1702 09/21/2007 16:13:15 GMT
Yes, Skye--but I think what Dean is saying in his post, is that his team doesn't use rotations or degrees. Although rotations makes sense to me and we have already used that method to solve challenges this summer. But is there another more sophisticated way, other than using bumpers, etc? - Message by:0222520A 09/21/2007 17:57:06 GMT
There are many ways to navigate around.
Most FLL teams use odometry and pre-programmed trajectories for navigation. In the non-FLL world of autonomous robots this is viewed as being so prone to accumulating large errors that it is almost worthless. The FLL world is flat, uniform and 4' x 8', so it works OK, but many teams last year were surprised when their robot that worked great at home or school scored much lower at the tournament.
Some FLL teams use simple forms of landmark navigation to supplement odometry. If you can find something out on the mat, like a line or a house, then you can correct some of your odometry error. Squaring up to a wall is a good way to zero out angular errors.
Occasionally I see a team that uses point-to-point landmark navigation. Drive straight until you find a landmark. Turn x degrees and drive until you find the next landmark, etc... It's usually slower than odometry, but very robust.
Line following could be a useful strategy for this challenge with all the roads. I've also seen some nice work using the ultrasonic sensor to locate obstacles and map your surroundings.
There are all kinds of other ways to navigate. In Minnesota we run a highschool robotics (HSR) league that uses the same challenge mat as FLL, but with modified rules. A few years ago one of the HSR teams created a map of the playing field inside their robot program. They divided the playing field into a bunch of hexagons. Each hexagon knew what was inside it (was it on the edge of a line, does it contain an obstacle). To program a trajectory they entered the starting and ending hexagon. The robot planned the trajectory, choosing the most direct path that avoided obstacles. When navigating to the next via point the robot alternated between odometry or landmark navigation, based on the contents of the destination hexagon. Pretty cool.
You might think that is too sophisticated for FLL kids, but that group was an FLL team the year before.
If you are really interested in the subject there are lots of books and papers about mobile robot trajectory planning and navigation. This is a good one to start out with:
"Where am I? Sensors and Methods for Mobile Robot Positioning"
http://www.engin.umich.edu/research/mrl/00MoRob_18.html
Fun reading for a true robogeek, and the bibliography goes on for miles.
Dean Hystad - Message by: The Eagles 09/20/2007 17:22:53 GMT
I suggest you have your son put a set of batteries that has been used for awhile in his robot and try out his table. Then put in a brand new set of batteries and compare the results. - Message by: Westford51 09/19/2007 23:38:05 GMT
I'm not sure I would classify it as a strategy. the objective is to get the kids to learn programming, not just solve the challenges. If they can sit there and work through the logic in the context of the NXT-G software, then they will get much more out of it than flicking a few switches. I want them to understand the cause and effect as well as develope an understanding of the more complex functions so they think beyond the one off solutions and get to a point where they are thinking about the all of the challenges and the interaction amongst them.
The other benefit I see is, as they start to lay out solutions, they will more readily see where there are repetitive actions that could be programmed as a subroutine and used repeatedly.
Chris - Message by:0222520A 09/20/2007 00:52:55 GMT
Exactly. The idea is to get the kids to learn programming. And one of the worst ways to do that is writing programs to solve the challenges.
Last year most of the NXT-G programs I saw consisted of long strings of MOVE blocks. They were not much fun to write (according to the kids), dreadfully dreary to judge, extremely difficult to debug, very hard to change, and not very educational. It was so bad that I got excited when I saw a comment in one of the programs (Comments save time, they don't take time!)
So I told my team that they were forbidden to write programs such as those. "When I look at your program I don't want to see a single MOVE block!" After much gnashing of teeth they devised a strategy. Hide the MOVE block inside a MyBlock. So they had to learn how to make MyBlocks. While doing so they learned about parameter passing ("How can we tell it how far to go?") and information hiding ("Do we want a plug for power, or is it OK to use 75 all the time?")
Next I said their MyBlocks weren't interesting enough. They had to do more before I would allow their use. They added a conversion routine so they could specify duration in millimeters instead of motor degrees. Quickly they learned that they didn't need the robot for programming all the time, and sometimes they didn't even need the computer! Later on we found out the fancy MyBlock allowed them to make changes to the robot without having to change all the programs. We tried several different wheels to see which ones worked best and they only had to change two numbers in two MyBlocks to make the programs work.
"That's nice" I said. "How do you go backwards?" Half an hour later they had a new solution that still worked with all their missions. "Make sure you didn't break anything! Software engineers call that regression testing." (This year one of my girls said she wants to be the "recession tester".) Now they are working on "What happens if you stall?"
So what is a better programming experience? Will kids learn much from adding the 25th MOVE block to the power plant mission? Or will they learn more making a useful MyBlock? Unless forced to do otherwise many kids (most people) chose the most literal solution when writing their programs. Want to drive around a square? "Four sides and four corners, that will be eight move blocks. Give me the robot so I can figure out the motor duration." But when you tell them the program can only use three blocks they are forced to think.
If you don't have a lot of computer resources or a lot of time you should start by teaching some programming. Use programming exercises that demonstrate the benefit of using loops. Show how the switch block can be used. Start them writing some simple MyBlocks. There will be a start-up delay when you won't be making much obvious progress, but you will have huge time savings in the end. You will also have better programmers, and a higher programming score.
Plus some of those early programming exercises can be very useful for robot testing. Driving in a square is clockwise and counter clockwise is always good.
Dean Hystad - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/20/2007 18:29:26 GMT
i (Comments save time, they don't take time!
As a whole I would aggree with you, but when it comes to NXT-G I disagree. Because the comments are not anchored to an icon, any insertion or deletion changes the comments relative to the icons they commented. You then waste time moving the dang things back into place.
Now I have not tried V1.1 (just got it in the mail last night) but I have heard it has the same DEFECT. GRRRRR.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/20/2007 20:15:08 GMT
Depends on the comments. If you are writing little descriptions about one or two function blocks, then yes it is a pain and it could slow you down. But I would rather see comments about large sections of code that describe the function or higher-level ideas. By looking at the program blocks I can usually see WHAT your program is doing. But I need comments to tell me WHY
My team writes one large comment block for each program or MyBlock. It describes what the program or MyBlock does:
"This block follows a dark line for a distance measured in millimeters. It uses the bang-bang method, sweeping back and forth over line, using alternating left and right sweeps. The SWEEP variable keeps track of what direction was last used."
Sometimes they will explain smaller (4-5 block) pieces of code if the purpose isn't clear or the implementation isn't obvious. Occasionally they use a landmark comment (something important happens here). They also comment anything they think is really cool, just to make sure the programming judge doesn't miss it.
Dean Hystad - Message by: brian001 09/21/2007 17:21:46 GMT
Dean wrote:
> Later on we found out the fancy MyBlock allowed them to make
> changes to the robot without having to change all the programs.
> We tried several different wheels to see which ones worked best
> and they only had to change two numbers in two MyBlocks to
> make the programs work.
To take this still further, there are at least two directions I've seen from this point.
First, if its only two numbers to change, why have it built into the My Block at all... why not have the My Block get those "calibrations" from somewhere else, like, say, a file? Now you've used the same tactic Dean used, but the kids have learned how to use files (as well as upload and download text files from the NXT). Now that calibration issue is removed from the code, so the code becomes mobile - it could work on another robot with different wheels, but with a slightly different calibration file. Now the kids (and some of the coaches) realize the exact same program has a slightly different behavior based on the file dtaa it reads when it runs.
Second, if they have that idea, they might realize that you could write a series of instructions into a file, and have a single "stock" program execute them. They could write a "script" for a series of motions, and the program (robot-indpendant due to the seperate calibration file) can execute them in order.
By the time they've reached that last step, they are right back to "a simple strong of commands to do a fixed series of actions", the same (in a sense) as with the hideously long strings of Move blocks they might have started with. But the amount of information they've now learned is enormous... in fact, they've just gone and built what's called a "virtual machine" on top of NXT-G, in a way very much analogous to the way the firmware executes a compiled NXT-G program in the first place.
Yes, I do use NXT-G based scripting languages like that. It's useful at times, it's fun... and it's amazingly informative as you learn. You just have to take it in little steps, like Dean layed out, and make sure that every step along the way the *kids* are decideding on a solution. You can corral or drive them towards particular solutions, but if you give it to them they won't learn it. If they *discover* it, they'll never, ever forget it.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Westford51 09/21/2007 17:30:23 GMT
Thanks Brian,
This is what I am trying to achieve, but the only way to get the kids fluent in the NXT language is to use it and since there are limited computers, using it in real time is not realistic. Hence, a collection of block worksheets that can be played with, layed out on the floor, reorganized, tested offline and such.
It looks like we are going to have to create our own, which is fine, but it will probably mean that 2008 is when they really get used.
Time to invent the wheel...
Chris - Message by:0222520A 09/21/2007 18:11:29 GMT
I don't see a reason to create little pictures for the purpose of documentation when you are programming "off-line". A text shorthand is quicker and easier to understand.
Want to MOVE using motors A and C for a duration of 250 degrees at a power of 50?
MOVE AC 250deg, p=50
Want to do that while driving backwards?
MOVE AC 250deg REV, p=50
Want to do a loop?
START LOOP
block 1
block 2
END LOOP when COUNT = 4
The pretty pictures are just syntactic sugar. Granted you will have to come up with a way to document data wires, but that would still be difficult using magnetic or adhesive backed program icons.
Computers are always a limiting resource. I have two laptops and a desktop for a four girl team and there is still a struggle for who gets the computer next.
Dean Hystad - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/21/2007 18:39:03 GMT
If you want pictured of all the icons, you already have them. They are in the directories under the software install area.
Here are where the files are on my pc. The best ones are in each of these directories under here:
C:\Program Files\LEGO Software\LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT\engine\vi.lib\LEGO\Blocks
There are other pictures in other directories, but they are partial. For teh kids I print the icons on a piece of magnent inkjet paper and cut them out. It works really well. Staples sells a nice white board with a metal backing for using magnents on, like 2'x3' for $10
Have fun.
Laura
As a coach, I've had team members write simple line-walker programs with a single light sensor, as a good exercise. As a thought question, I asked if their method would be easier with two sensors, and all (including me) thought that would be a very nice option.
So, in my spare midnight hours, I played with my home robot to see if I could quickly write a simple two-sensor line walker, and hours later I'm left frustrated and shaking my head.
I tried a simpler experiment, just stopping on a line, using each sensor in turn, with the other off. I had to recalibrate for the second test, then recalibrate to get the first working again.
Problem1: Because the sensors are in two different spots, effected by external light differently, I can't seem to get calibrations right.
Problem2: Possibly the source of problem1, but when I run the NXT-G calibrate program, which allows selection of only one input port, I see in the pop up window only ONE calibration range for "LIGHT" sensor. No matter which port I pick, only one range is displayed.
So, my first question for this esteemed group. Am I seeing correctly that there is only ONE calibration value available that applies to both sensors?
Second, is there a way around this so that each light sensor can use its own calibration range?
Third, is this COMMON that the two light sensors would read fairly different ranges when surrounded by the same ambient light conditions?
Fourth, do light sensors, placed on left/right sides of a narrow robot affect each other? Will light from one skew the results of the other?
At this point, it is more of an intellectual curiosity for an old electrical engineer, as I would never recommend the frustration on my team of kids. But I do wonder why I couldn't get this "simple" program working.
Thanks for any thoughts,
Wayne
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/26/2007 12:58:45 GMT
As for your calibration issue, I believe that you are correct in that only one calibration is available per class of sensor using the standard calibration icon. But I think I read someplace a trick to calibrate them differently. I will try to find that info and repost.
All light sensors are different. The parts that are used all vary by +-10 percent. If you got a sensor will all plus parts and one with all minus parts you could have readings that vary.
Ambient light is a significant issue. The best hint I can give you is to figure out this problem. How can you get rid of ambient light effecting your sensor?
I would also question the use of calibration at all. In your shoes, I would simply apply diferent parameters to each of the icons for your different light sensors. It might be a pain, but it would solve the issue.
-Skye - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/26/2007 14:24:14 GMT
I went back and re-read the section (pages 163-) in LEGO Mindstorms NXT-G Programming Guide by James Kelly and found that it is not possible to calibrate each light sensor individualy. I highly recommend this book to anyboby having to use NXT-G.
So I go back to my original comment and say nuke your calibration and simply adjust each icon with its own paramtermers AFTER you figure out how to counter the ambient light problem.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/26/2007 17:39:20 GMT
You can calibrate the sensors yourself. When calibrating a sensor you calculate a scale and an offset correction so that the sensor readings match a calibrated value. Usually the calibrated value is provided by having the sensor measure a known quantity, like a know weight or a bar with a known length. But sometimes you calibrate one sensor against another sensor which is usually of better quality. You can choose either solution here.
Suppose I want to calibrate both sensors to the field map such that the sensor reads 20 when over the dark street and 90 when over the white background of a community. For each sensor I take readings on the street and on the white background.
Sensor 1 2 Ideal
White 69 65 90
Black 45 48 20
Difference 24 17 70
What we need is an equation that takes the sensor reading and maps it to the ideal setting. We need to adjust both the gain of the sensor (how much the reading changes for a change in light level) and the offset (what the sensor reads at a specific light level). Usually I use the equation:
Calibrated value = Sensor Reading x Gain + Offset
First I calculate the gain. The gain makes the sensor more or less sensitive to changes in light. We need our sensor to be much more sensitive to changes in light.
Sensor 1's readings changed by 24 when going from black to white, but we wanted it to change by 70. So the gain for sensor 1 is 70/24, or 2.9166. Sensor 2's readings changed by 17, so it's gain will be even higher, 70/17 or 4.1176.
Now we can compute the offset. Apply the gain to either the black or white readings and compute the difference between the result and the ideal reading.
Sensor 1:
Black reading after gain = 70/24 x 45 = 131.25
Offset = Ideal - reading after gain = 20 - 131.25 = -111.25
Sensor 2:
Black reading after gain = 70/17 x 48 = 197.65
Offset = Ideal - reading after gain = 20 - 197.65 = -177.65
For a check we apply the gain and offset to the white reading and compare the result to the ideal.
Sensor 1:
Calibrated white reading = 70/24 x 69 - 111.25 = 90
Sensor 2:
Calibrated white reading = 70/17 x 65 - 177.65 = 90
This calibration assumes that the only differences between light sensors is the offset and gain, and that the light sensors are fairly linear. More sophisticated routines can be used to compensate for sensors that have a more complicated relationship between the input (here brightness) and the sensor reading.
Now go have fun writing a calibrated light sensor MyBlock.
Dean Hystad - Message by: radicalroborockstars4155 10/08/2007 19:48:25 GMT
An impressive paper on line-following algorithms written by a ninth-grader is available at this URL.
http://www.fll-freak.com/misc/01-jgray_report.pdf
The author hypothesized that robots using 2 light sensors would be faster and more accurate than robots using 1 light sensor, but he concluded that was not necessarily true. Perhaps he encountered some of the calibration issues you described.
The experiments were performed with the older Lego RCX programed with RoboLab, but some of the conclusions may still be valid for the NXT. - Message by: CGMSC745 10/16/2007 20:48:50 GMT
Following up on dyhstad's excellent post.
Manipulating light values is an excellent opportunity to try to tie what the older kids are doing in math class into a real world problem. The older kids (7th and 8th grades) should be doing the equation of a line and working with graphs in their math classes. Dyhstad's treatment of mapping one variable range into another is an excellent example of the equation of a line in two space;
Calibrated value = Sensor Reading x Gain + Offset
Is a straight line with slope equal to Gain and y-intercept equal to Offset.
As a slightly different example lets try to map the light value for a line follower into NXT-G turn settings for the Move block.
We'll work with calibrated/scaled light values, black=0 and white=100. The data port for the turn control of the Move block takes values in the range of -100 (a "^v" turn one direction) to +100 (a "v^" pivot turn the other direction), straight ahead is a turn value of zero.
For a line follower you probably want to avoid full pivot turns (but that would be a good thing to investigate) so we will map the light values into turns in the range of -90 to +90 (note that those are not angle values).
It is a bit easier for the kids to understand if you create a graph of what is going on. See the attached picture for an example.
The final equation is;
Turn Value = 1.8*(Light Value) - 90
Once we have the equation that converts light values into turn values we are almost ready to write the program. Only one small problem left, NXT-G does all of it's math with integers. You can't enter the value "1.8" into a NXT-G math block.
To fix that problem will use a little trick, we'll multiply both sides of the equation by 10 so the decimal point in "1.8" goes away;
10*Turn Value = 18*(Light Value) - 900
Now we can use NXT-G math blocks to calculate the value of the right hand side of the equation.
Of course, what we have now calculated is ten times the Turn Value so we'll have to finish up with a divide by ten to get the actual value we'll feed to the data port of the turn block.
So, we have written a line follower that uses the light readings to control the turn settings of a NXT-G move block.
There are a lot of other linear mapping problems that can crop up in FLL challenges. Another example would be a line follower that calculates power levels for the two motors based on the light value. Perhaps something along the lines of;
If light=50; motorA = motorB = 50% power
If light=40; motorA = 40%, motorB = 60% (turn the robot in one direction)
If light=60; motorA = 60%, motorB = 40% (turn the robot in the other direction)
The farther the light value is from 50 the greater the difference in the power levels for the two motors. - Message by: redrobots2969 10/18/2007 01:38:54 GMT
I'm trying very hard to follow what is being said above and prior to posting this message I've done numerous Google searches with some of my team members trying to figure out how to get our robot to follow a line. We've watched videos on YouTube showing NXT robots following a line which is nice but we're still looking for more tips. I don't want to give the kids the answer but first I need to know the answer myself to help steer them in the right direction. I just feel like we're spinning our wheels trying to nail this down and since this is our team's 4th and final year I'm really pushing them to learn line following since they haven't been able to accomplish this task over the last 3 years very successfully. Any tips and additional web sites that could lead our team in the right direction? Thanks for all and any input.
Phil Martin
Co-Coach Red Robots #2969 - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 13:01:28 GMT
Line following is an art not a science. I could give you my best line following algorithm (LFA) and it might not work at all on your robot. So many variables play a part in success. These include location of the light sensor relative to the center of rotation, mass, speed, wheel base, castor type, moment of inertia about the z axis (Izz), and a million other things.
So how does one get started? I teach the simple Shades of Gray algorithm and let them go from there. SOG is not the best method but it is a simple and teachable skill. You can find information on it in the Coaches' Primer available at www.fll-freak.com
Someday I should write a book on LFAs geared towards FLL.
And perhaps a book on landmark navigation as well.
-Skye - Message by: Squizoids2046 10/18/2007 02:02:38 GMT
An earlier responder to my question pointed to an interesting student paper:
http://www.fll-freak.com/misc/01-jgray_report.pdf
He outlines interesting line following theories using 1 or 2 light sensors, and then tries each one out and reports on his results. He didn't iterate through design improvements that he knew could be made. But if you'd just like to get an idea for alternative algorithms for line following, read the paper.
I've also had limited success writing my own good line follower program. I had this vision of a smoothly-correcting robot that glided along the line lightly "bouncing" off the line edges and smoothly correcting. My attempts thus far are either very jerky (stopping, sharp turn and return to good, turn back, and proceed) or smooth turns don't correct quickly enough before losing line. I thought using two light sensors would be better, and I still believe they WILL, but the two light sensors have different thresholds. The two excellent replies to this thread describe linear equations that will let you scale the light readings from two sensors so they behave the same.
Some day, after the FLL season I'll have time to play with the robots myself again and get it working. My teams have not attempted line FOLLOWING and instead combine line RECOGNITION with fixed rotation movements to get more accuracy.
Good Luck! - Message by: Squizoids2046 10/18/2007 17:30:24 GMT
I spent some time last night trying to write a better line follower, and I think I learned my first lesson. The robot I was using has its light sensor tucked underneath the bot, right at the center of rotation. So, as soon as the bot detects the wrong color, the wheels have already gone too far to steer back smoothly, so the only movement algorithm that works is a backup/twist motion that makes the whole robot movement a jerky dance.
I began to understand why placement of the sensor ahead of the axis of rotation would be useful for smooth following. That way, small/smooth turns would more quickly return the sensor to the mark and keep the bot lined up. It was an interesting learning experience. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 17:52:23 GMT
But place the sensor too far ahead and a small turn is quite likely to swing the sensor back towards the line and cross over it in the other direction before the robot has a chance to stop its turn. Been there done that.
As I have said, line following is an art best learned by numerous failures.
-Skye - Message by: CGMSC745 10/18/2007 18:40:41 GMT
I agree with everyone, line following really is an art.
And, you don't actually follow the line, you usually follow the edge of the line, a subtle, but very important detail. (Squizoids appears to have figured that out already.)
Besides the geometry of the robot and the sensitivity of the sensor...
The characteristics of the line also makes a big difference. It is usually pretty easy to follow a nice straight line. Gentle curves are a bit harder. Sharp turns are harder. Intersections add another level of complexity. Fat lines are a lot easier to follow than are skinny lines. High contrast between the line and the "not line" helps a lot also. (Remember the Mission Mars mat? Lots of nice lines but the contrast between line and "not line" was pretty low.)
Line following is a good example of the trade offs that engineers are often faced with. You can follow a straight line moving pretty fast. That algorithm will fail miserably with a line with sharp turns. You can follow a line with sharp turns with a high degree of precision but the robot will have to be moving slowly. So what is more important, speed or precision? Usually, you can get one or the other but not both.
One suggestion I make to my kids when they start learning to write a line follower is to have the robot move very slowly. This helps in a couple ways, first it makes it a heck of a lot easier to actually see what the robot is doing. Second, at a slow enough speed a robot will follow a very complex line with high degree of accuracy. Once they can get a slow but precise line follower to work then I challenge them to see how fast they can get it to go and still manage to follow the line. Finally, I ask'm to think about the characteristics of the line they actually need to follow and make them decide what is more important, speed or accuracy. - Message by: The Eagles 10/18/2007 19:51:40 GMT
Let me add one more level of complexity -- the programming language. I haven't tried to write line follower in NXT-G 1.1, but with 1.0, there were some serious limitations about how fast the brick could process the inputs, make calculations and adjust the motors. Therefore, even if you had the best algorithm in the world, your robot might not be able process it fast enough to follow the line. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 20:09:06 GMT
I would therefore submit your algorithm was not "the best in the world"!
To say I dislike NXT-G would be a serious understatement. It uses vast quantities of memory and runs as slow as a turtle in wet concrete. An LFA that works on an RIS with Robolab will not transfer to NXT using NXT-G.
The only way I was able to get an NXT/NXT-G robot to follow a line was to slow its speed down to ridiculous levels.
But when I switched to Robolab, I found that I can stay on the line better than with an RCX. Robolab on NXT is the cat's meow.
Just what was LEGO/NI thinking when they ported the LabView Runtime Engine to a microprocessor?
-Skye - Message by: Squizoids2046 10/18/2007 20:00:49 GMT
Another curiosity I noticed. I tried writing a "slow left turn" in a myblock where I split the driving of the B and C motors up into two move blocks running in parallel.
With Cpower=40, Bpower=60, bot turned nicely right, as expected.
With Cpower=60, Bpower=40, bot went virtually straight.
I had assumed linear power would drive the motors equally, but one motor doesn't respond equally well. This also may explain why the slider-bar turns using BC have always been non-intuitive.
I think this may explain why straightline bot travel also seems to "waddle" a little. NXT ensures motor rotation travel is consistent, but they run at slightly different speeds.
Is it common for motors to respond differently to the same power settings? Or is the motor bad? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 20:12:30 GMT
No two motors are ever the same. Some identical motors are less so than others. Your variation may be inside the statistical distribution for 'good' motors or it may be outside. With so many teams using the closed loop direction control inside the Move blocks its hard to spot anything but a horrible motor.
-Skye - Message by: LEGOJuniors 10/18/2007 21:14:47 GMT
As Skye said, the motors definitely vary. That variation was the inspiration for an experiment I co-developed (along with Denis Coffey from the Rhode Island School of the Future and James Isom from LEGO Ed West) at the LEGO Engineering Symposium earlier this year. The attached PowerPoint details the activity.
- Larry
P.S. Food for thought... If you can find motors that turn at the same rate under no load conditions, does it necessarily ensure that the pair of motors will continue to perform similarly under various loads? How would you test that? - Message by: CGMSC745 10/18/2007 23:05:27 GMT
We did some fairly extensive testing of the RCX motors last year. For our set of 6 "71427" motors the performance under load, the ability to coast and the power of the brakes were all within ~5% of the average. Our one "43362" motor was ~20% more powerful and coasted more than twice as far as the "71427"s.
I would be pretty surprised if there was a difference of 10% between a pair of the new motors. Squizoids numbers suggest a difference between his two motors of 30~50% which I would think is way out of spec. Either he has a bad motor or there is some other explanation (like hair getting pulled into the space between the orange flange and the motor body).
P.S. More food for thought, ala LEGOJuniors post; Is the ability of a motor to coast related to its power under load?
Is the strength of a motor's brake related to its power under load?
How well correlated is a motor's power in the forward and reverse directions? (This is an important question for robots that use the RCX style motors since many of those designs use opposite motor directions to move the robot in a given direction. In other words, when you match motors you want the forward direction of one motor to match the reverse direction of the other motor.)
If anyone is interested I can post the method and results for the old style motors. - Message by: radicalroborockstars4155 11/09/2007 04:31:14 GMT
A simple NXT-G line following example is found at the end of this document:
www.hightechkids.org/?1-3-20-fll_programming_101_nxt_g.pdf
The sample code is probably not good enough to use in competition, but studying it may give a team some ideas. I tried it with a simple robot equipped with a light sensor positioned near the front of the robot. It was able to follow a curved line fairly well, but line intersections completely foiled the robot.
Is National Instruments' Control Design Toolkit allowed to be used with Robolab 2.9?
- Message by:0222520A 09/29/2007 03:30:45 GMT
No
How to display variables like these can be displayed in View windows while the robot is running by a program?
In order to effectively determine the proper value for a variable in a block such as the number of the degrees of Motor A, my kids tried to figure out how to display the variable while the robot in running by a program. They looked the display block, but it does not have variable display option.
Could anyone share the info?
- Message by: brian001 09/29/2007 15:23:04 GMT
Well, the Display block can display a string of text on the LCD, right? And that text can be wired into the appropriate port on the data hub of the Display block. So if there was a way to convert a number (from a variable, or other data plug output) into a text string. Can you find a block that does that?
--
Brian Davis - Message by: crazycreators252 09/29/2007 20:05:31 GMT
Do you have an FLL supplied NXT kit or do you have a retail (store baugth)kit? If you have the FLL supplied kit you should have Mindstorms Education software. Check out the
Robot Educator on the right hand side of the screen when you start the mindstorms software. There is a fine example in the Complete Palette section for displaying the distance read by the ultrasonic sensor. (35. Display Text). Instaed of the ultrasonic sensor you would use your variable as an input to the "Number to Text" block.
Good Luck
Dave
Coach
Team 252 - Message by: JEECS Squad II 09/29/2007 20:15:03 GMT
Thanks.
We made a test program as attached. It doesn't work - no value of Moved degree was displayed on the screen while the robot is running.
Could you tell us what's wrong?
Thanks. - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 01:20:23 GMT
I looked at your program and can see why it does not work!
You have some of the concepts down and others need work. As you have it, you do the Move followed by the display sequence. The problem is that the Move icon is a "blocking" icon. That it the motion of the robot occurs befor the next icon starts. So even if the robot drives for an hour, the display icons do not get run till that hour is up.
The second issue you have is the source of the number you want to print to the screen. You are currently reading it from a variable you happened to have called "Move Degree". Unless you place something in that variable, what you will print will likely be a zero. What you would like is to print the value of one of the rotation sensors. To do that you need a different source for your display sequence.
And even with the proper source for the rotation sensor, you will only at best display the distance AFTER the move, not DURING it as I tried to explain above.
I have posted a modification to your program. It is untested, but should give you some ideas on a better approach.
-Skye - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 01:21:08 GMT
I looked at your program and can see why it does not work!
You have some of the concepts down and others need work. As you have it, you do the Move followed by the display sequence. The problem is that the Move icon is a "blocking" icon. That it the motion of the robot occurs befor the next icon starts. So even if the robot drives for an hour, the display icons do not get run till that hour is up.
The second issue you have is the source of the number you want to print to the screen. You are currently reading it from a variable you happened to have called "Move Degree". Unless you place something in that variable, what you will print will likely be a zero. What you would like is to print the value of one of the rotation sensors. To do that you need a different source for your display sequence.
And even with the proper source for the rotation sensor, you will only at best display the distance AFTER the move, not DURING it as I tried to explain above.
I have posted a modification to your program. It is untested, but should give you some ideas on a better approach.
-Skye - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 01:21:58 GMT
I looked at your program and can see why it does not work!
You have some of the concepts down and others need work. As you have it, you do the Move followed by the display sequence. The problem is that the Move icon is a "blocking" icon. That it the motion of the robot occurs befor the next icon starts. So even if the robot drives for an hour, the display icons do not get run till that hour is up.
The second issue you have is the source of the number you want to print to the screen. You are currently reading it from a variable you happened to have called "Move Degree". Unless you place something in that variable, what you will print will likely be a zero. What you would like is to print the value of one of the rotation sensors. To do that you need a different source for your display sequence.
And even with the proper source for the rotation sensor, you will only at best display the distance AFTER the move, not DURING it as I tried to explain above.
I have posted a modification to your program. It is untested, but should give you some ideas on a better approach.
-Skye - Message by: JEECS Squad II 09/29/2007 21:01:54 GMT
Ooh well, we figured out one way to do wat we what -
We used a Rotation Sensor Block after the Move Block, wired its Degree output to the input of Number to Text Block, and wired Text output of NTB to Text Input of Display Block, we also added a Wait Block on Time to let the value to be seen on the screen before gone. - Message by: JEECS Squad II 09/30/2007 01:44:11 GMT
Thank you very much so the help. We missed each other on the postings but came to the similar ideas - certainly we ( as a team) have a lot more to learn.
We reviewed Robot Educator and found the use of the Rotation Sensor (#24).
By the way, we tried to download your rbt files but after downloading (understand we need to change the name of the file), NXT-G cannot open them.
Your help is greatly appreciated. - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 03:02:25 GMT
I am using version 1.1. Perhaps if you have 1.0 my file may not be usable. By the way, I highly recomment the book LEGO Mindstorms NXT-G Prograaming Guide by James Floyd Kelly. Fantastic resource.
-Skye - Message by: JEECS Squad II 09/30/2007 20:51:26 GMT
Thanks, Skye. We will purchse the book you recommened.
We do have NXT-G v 1.1 newly upgraded from v 1.0. We wonder if you could re-upload your rbt? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/01/2007 03:04:01 GMT
Here it is again with a slight improvement.
-Skye - Message by: brian001 10/01/2007 15:13:48 GMT
If you still have trouble downloading and running Skye's program... Skye, by any chance are you on a Mac, while the other guys are on a PC? Both running 1.1?
--
Brian Davis - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/01/2007 15:20:00 GMT
I am running Windows XP on PC.
Brian, Are you able to open the attached file?
-Skye "No Macs in my house" Sweeney - Message by: brian001 10/01/2007 15:35:38 GMT
Curiously, the first one I also can't open - I'm not sure why. I thought it might be the name, as coming off your computer it had an entire directory path instead of a simple name. Even renaming it didn't help. However the second version seems to open just fine (even with the long "name as pathname"). Odd.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: JEECS Squad II 10/01/2007 15:37:53 GMT
Hi, Coach Skye:
Yes! this time I am able to open your file. Your programm is a lot better than the one my son made!!!
In June I pre-ordered the book you mentioned on Amazon, then I forgot about it. Yesterday I was trying to order the book and before checked out I looked the account activity I realized Amazon mailed out my pre-ordered one on Saturday, Spet 29! So likely I'll get the book when I get home tonight :))
I'll ask my son to study the book. My son and his teammates are mostly 8th graders. Learning the programming skill and logic with NXT-G is a great plus for them before they will be required to learning C++ or Java in highschool.
Thanks again - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/01/2007 15:47:53 GMT
Glad you were able to open the file. Not sure what happened to the first one.
The book on NXT-G is great. Although I am not a fan of NXT-G, it was a worthwhile addition to my growing LEGO library.
-Skye - Message by: brian001 10/01/2007 15:50:06 GMT
Another place to browse (and you, as a coach, might want to do this *before* setting your team loose on it) is on-line for examples. I've tosed some documented examples up on my Brickshelf page:
http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=191310
And I've delibrately tried to keep from "solving" FLL problems, while still showing some different ways of doing things.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: JEECS Squad II 10/01/2007 17:08:57 GMT
Hi, Brian:
Thanks for the info. As a matter of fact, I bookmarked your site in early Spring of this year when I was browsing this section 'NXT)NXT-G programming' in 2006 Forum. I am actually the guy who compiled all questions there into a single file and posted it on the Forum, and VAFLL list. However I have never really read it in detail (silly me).
(I was the coach of Team 321 Robot Activators of 2006. I am not coaching this year but stil mentoring.)
Jin Ye
Hi, our NXT brick is having a problem. Every time we attempt to run a program, instead of running the actual program, it will run the wheel on motor B forward for a few degrees, then backwards to the starting spot. It does this on any program we run. We've tried reloading the firmware twice, but it still does the same thing. I've heard of the twitch before, could this be it? If so, (or if it's something else) how do we solve it?
Thanks for any response.
- Message by: JEECS Squad II 09/29/2007 20:32:58 GMT
Have you tried to add a Reset Block at the very begining of the program? - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/29/2007 20:35:10 GMT
Have you tried to reload the firmware from scratch?
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/30/2007 03:21:15 GMT
I've never heard of the "twitch", the "tick" but not the "twitch".
What version of firmware are you running? What version of NXT-G are you running? Are you using a USB cable or bluetooth?
Can you make the NXT do anything using the NXT Program? Can you see sensors using View?
Are you sure the motors are attached to motor ports (A, B, C) not sensor ports (1, 2, 3, 4)?
What does the battery power look like?
Answer a few of these and we can do a better job diagnosing the problem.
Dean Hystad - Message by: Team4287 09/30/2007 07:43:02 GMT
I haven't heard (doesn't mean that problems don't exist) of motor issues because of the firmware.
If after following Dean's check list do the following:
Strongly recommend that you first hook up the battery charger to the NXT brick prior to running these tests. This will assure that the NXT brick has sufficient power (just in case you battery has died).
1) Program "A" motor to move forward X number of rotations at high speed.
2) Hook up a motor to port A and run the program. Does the wheel spin. If so you know the connection is good.
3) If the motor doesn't spin, replace the cable with a different one. If the motor now spins, you have a bad cable. Hook up the bad cable again and if the motor now doesn't spin, cut the bad cable in half and throw it out.
4) If the motor doesn't spin in step 3 replace the motor with another one. If the new motor does spin, then it looks like that the previous motor is bad and should be replaced.
5) If the motor doesn't spin in step 3, then most likely the control brick is defective and it should be replaced.
After completing all of steps for port A, do the same for B and C.
All this assumes that the battery is good, if it is drained or shorted out then all bets are off.
And as always, let us know what you find out.
-- Stephen - Message by: brian001 10/01/2007 15:21:07 GMT
To put this another way, that's exactly the behavior you'd expect to see if for some reason either one of the two motors wasn't able to turn, or wasn't able to report the turn. The motor that is not moving either is hooked up to the wrong port (or the Move block is configured for the wrong ports), or a wire or motor itself is bad. Test 'em, and check to see that if the Move block is configured for, say, B & C, you have the motors actually plugged into B & C (and that they're firmly plugged in - I've had some work the plugs out just a little too much).
--
Brian Davis - Message by: SWAT1579 10/05/2007 04:49:08 GMT
Hi All,
Thanks for the suggestions folks. The problem was much simpler and more embarrassing than any of that. The team discovered that one of the motor cables was not inserted completely into the slot! So first - is everything plugged in!! - Message by:0222520A 10/05/2007 04:55:14 GMT
Been there, done that. - Message by: SWAT1579 10/06/2007 17:24:08 GMT
For anyone still checking out this thread, by "twitch" we meant the phenomenon in which the NXT starts running random programs. Last year we knew of a team whose robot ran the correct program on "odd" tries, but picked random programs on the "even" turns. - Message by: brian001 10/06/2007 23:00:00 GMT
OK, *that's* new to me - do you have any other information on this, or an old thread that describes it? Was it repeatable, or could you fix it with a firmware download?
--
Brian "forwarding this to NI and LEGO" Davis - Message by: ENUY4338 10/26/2007 17:22:43 GMT
Does anyone know how to make two motors run at the same time? We've had trouble with that lately.
mandi - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/27/2007 03:11:59 GMT
Mandi,
You used to be able to get two motors to run at the same time but now you can't? With the same program?
Make sure you have the check boxes for the two motors you want to run checked in the motor move icon.
-Skye - Message by: 10/27/2007 06:11:17 GMT
Deleted - Message by: brian001 10/29/2007 16:11:38 GMT
It sounds like a Move block is trying to synchronize those motors, but when it detects that C hasn't changed location, it slows it down (& even reverse it) to try to keep the two in sync. Possible problems are a broken motor or broken wire(the one that's not moving), but the most common causes are (a) trying to sync motors B & C but having them plugged into, say, B & A, or even more common problem is that the coble is just not quite plugged in. Check all the cable connections, then all the motors.
And I'm guessing, no, looking at the timestamp, this has already been solved? OK, so I'm a little late...
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Robohawks3810 11/12/2007 03:21:45 GMT
I am having a problem with the move block! When I set the properties in the move block to move forward for an unlimited distance my bot will only move about 6 inches forward then stop. When I nest the move block in a loop block the bot will keep going and going and going, unless I set the properties in the loop block to a sensor or time or... Has anyone else had this problem and how did you fix it? - Message by: The Eagles 11/12/2007 03:30:16 GMT
When you set a Move block to unlimited, it goes until you tell it to stop or until the end of the program, whichever happens first. For example, if you make a program out of a single Move block set to unlimited, nothing will happen, because your program ends instantly. My guess is that your program is ending before you want it to.
greating every one
i was wondering if any one know how to build a program in wich you calibrate the sensor (like during the matches) and put the mximin and the minimun , and then the light sensor stop when it detect the maximun light
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 03:13:59 GMT
I am assuming that you want a motor(s) to stop when the light sensor sees a light value greater than some maximum?
If so, first I would write the program with calibration just to get your feet wet. Turn on the motors in "unlimited" mode, than use a Wait For Light Sensor icon to wait till the the light sensor value is greater than the value you want to target. The wait icon will then terminate and you can than use a motor move icon to stop your motors as show in the attached program.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/30/2007 03:36:36 GMT
Let me make sure I am understanding the question. You would like to write a program that would continuously sample the light sensor. While doing this it would record the maximum light sensor reading and the minimum light sensor reading. Then I assume you want to put these values somewhere so you can use them in another program?
Am I right? I'm going to assume that I am, because it is a really fun question.
What does this program need?
I want to look at the light sensor many times. So I will need some sort of LOOP.
Eventually I want to quit looking at the light sensor so I can do other things. Maybe the loop should wait for a button press?
While looping I want to read the light sensor.
Each time I look at the light sensor I want to see if it is brighter than the previous brightest reading I ever saw. So I need something that can hold a value that can be changed.
I also want to compare the newest reading to the darkest reading I ever saw. So I guess I need another thing that can hold a variable value.
I guess I need to set some starting values for the brightest and darkest readings. I suppose I could give the bright reading a really dark value, and the dark reading a really bright value. Or should I just give them the value of the light sensor at the start of the program. I suppose both would work.
When my loop is done I need somewhere to put the dark and bright values where I can look at them later. In ROBOLAB I would just put them in a container, but the container like things in NXT loose their values when the program ends. I bet NXT has some other way of keeping values around between programs.
Sounds like a fun program. Think I'll go write it now.
Dean Hystad - Message by: panteras261 10/03/2007 04:19:58 GMT
sorry to make a confusing question but our english is not very good but what i try to say si that if you can do the same thing as in the rcx (the conteiner stuff and entry of values during the "runs" "matches" and keep it), in the nxt cause you know the darknes varie depending the pace you are thank you all - Message by: CGMSC745 10/08/2007 23:05:29 GMT
I think there are two possible questions here.
The first is how to use measured values in NXT-G the way it was usually done with RCX Robolab. In Robolab you measured the light values of say the white mat (~50) and a black line (~30). You then used those numbers in your program, for example, drive across the white until the light value drops below 40 (halfway between light and dark values).
In NXT-G the light values are handled a bit differently. In NXT-g there is a calibrate program on one of the menus. This program reads a dark and light value then scales all other values to these two readings. Typically, you'll get a dark value of perhaps 300 and a light value of perhaps 600. NXT-G then calibrates all light readings so that they map into 0 to 100. If you read the white that you calibrated on you should get 100. If you read the black you calibrated on you should get 0. So, the program that drives across the white mat until it reaches a black line can use a value of 50 for the light sensor (halfway between the scaled maximum and minimum light values).
The second issue is "is there a way to run the calibrate routine from inside a NXT-G program?" It would be very handy if the robot could sit in base and get a white reading, then, as it exits base and crosses the black road, it could get a black reading and recalculate what the "0" and "100" readings are.
Anybody know if this is possible? I've rummage around in NXT-G V1.0 and can't find anything that looks like it'll do it. - Message by: brian001 10/09/2007 00:03:48 GMT
> is there a way to run the calibrate routine from inside a NXT-G program?
You could always have an NXT-G program that reads a bright value and a dark value, and then accounts for that in the program, the same way people do in Robolab. In fact, I've personally yet to use the autocalibrate feature - while it might be handy, it also essentially conceals what's going on from the programmer.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: CGMSC745 10/10/2007 20:16:00 GMT
Brian
Can you get to the raw light values in NXT-G?
I'm new to NXT-G but it looks to me like you can't get the raw values. The value the sensor returns is critically dependent on what it used for the calibration light levels. "0" and "100" are relative to something other than pure black and looking straight into the Sun (pure bright white).
Nothing wrong with concealing things from the programmer. Heck, I have no clue how Perl calulates a hyperbolic arctangent. (And I really don't want to know!) That doesn't mean I can't effectively use that function. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/10/2007 21:17:52 GMT
I am no Brian, but you might just delete the calibration for the sensor. You will then be getting the default and perhaps the 'raw' values.
-Skye - Message by: The Eagles 10/10/2007 22:26:27 GMT
I don't have NXT-G in front of me, but my recollection is that there is an output terminal for raw values from the light sensor block. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/11/2007 12:55:38 GMT
Just verified this. There is indeed a raw value data port on the Light Sensor read icon.
-Skye - Message by: brian001 10/12/2007 19:09:52 GMT
... glad I could help :-). Seriously, it's very nice that folks are willing help this fast, and dig this deep.
As Skye said, there is a "raw" output plug on the NXT-G light sensor block, and also incidently on the touch and sound sensor blocks. These raw values are not influenced by an on-brick behind-the-scenes calibration, and have a better resolution as well.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: CGMSC745 10/12/2007 20:01:15 GMT
Yes there is an output on the light sensor blocks for both the scaled and/or calibrated light levels (0->100) and the raw light values. The raw light value range is 0-1024 according to the documentation, 0-1023 according to the calibrate routine, almost certainly the true range is the latter, not the former. (So, there is a minor bug in the documentation.)
You can turn off the calibration of the sensors from the Tools menu, "Calibrate sensors" routine.
If you turn off the calibration the sensors appear to use a default raw range to map into the 0->100 range. Perhaps the firmware is simply dividing the raw value by ~10, or it is assuming something along the lines of 300(raw)->0 and 600(raw)->100, where the "300" and "600" are some "reasonable" set of values that the Lego engineers guessed are similar to most real world situations.
If you use logic blocks you can use the raw values. If you use a "light sensor switch block" then you are using scaled values, even if the calibration is turned off. That is, the limits on the Light Sensor Switch block is 0->100, not 0->1023.
You can certainly replace the "light sensor switch block" with a "logic switch block" and then do the necessary boolean operations to properly control the "switch" using the raw (0->1023) values but there are some problems with that approach;
1. You need to add at least one boolean block and the code is not nearly as obvious to the programmer.
2. The various conversion values need to be hardcoded into every program that uses the light sensor(s).
3. The sensor status displayed in the GUI is not the same as the value that you are using/comparing in the program. If you are in communication with a NXT brick and you click on a Light Sensor Block (or a "Light Sensor Switch"), then the GUI displays the calibrated or scaled light value in the status box in the lower left corner of the screen. I can't get a value outside the range 0->100 to display in the status box regardless of what the light sensor is pointed at or what the settings are for the light sensor ("Calibrated" or "Default").
By my reading of the current rules and Q&A, it would be illegal for the robot to read a light value as it sat in base (to get a white value) or to read a black value as it crossed the road while it exited base (since part of the robot is almost certainly still in base when the light sensor crosses the road). That means if you use Raw values then the conversion factors have to be hard coded into every program that uses light values. Not really a huge issue, but it would be much more elegant if the robot could get a white and black value as it was actually running its program on the table.
To "calibrate on the fly" the robot must exit base completely, get a white reading, drive to a black area of the mat to get a black reading, calculate the conversion and/or scaling factors and/or cutoff values, and then continuing with the program run.
As a summary, it looks to me like there are three types of light values.
1. Raw values in the range of 0->1023. These are only accessible via the data ports.
2. Scaled, but uncalibrated, light values of 0->100. Accessible from the data ports and in the light sensor blocks. The exact nature of the scaling is not clear. "Clibration" must be turned off from the Tools menu, "Calibrate sensors" routine.
3. Scaled and calibrated light values of 0->100, accessible as in 2. Calibration is done via the Tools menu, "Calibrate sensors" routine. (Or by having a copy of the calibrate routine on the NXT.)
A program can use values from 1 & 2 or 1 & 3 but not all three types. Type 3 values could be calculated by the program itself from either type 1 or type 2 values. - Message by: brian001 10/13/2007 02:57:40 GMT
I think it might be easier to think in terms of two types of light sensor readings: scaled and unscaled (raw). For scaled values, you can either use a default scaling, or a scaling based on two calibration values... but in either of those two cases, the readings are 0-100.
As to needing to "hard code" the limits if you are using the raw values, I'm not at all sure that's true. Even if the rules specificly forbid you from taking any readings from a sensor while any part of the robot is in the base (I don't have the rules, so I'm assuming a worst case here), you could always have the first mission get calibration values as it goes out, and store these in a text file, instantly accessible to any future mission. This is, essentially, how the built-in calibration works: a program of some type takes some light readings, and stores them for future scaling. If you do this yourself in the code, it could function in a very similar way... except with higher resolution (0-1023, instead of 0-100), and more importantly, with the team members understanding *exactly* how such calibration happens.
--
Brian Davis - Message by:0222520A 10/13/2007 04:05:40 GMT
The robot is restricted during transition, but not during preparation. Hint hint. - Message by: zap4702 10/13/2007 04:36:40 GMT
See QA 38. The robot is indeed permitted to use the light sensor during transition:
"Q: Well if you can't do anything until you're out of Base, you must be using timing or other sensing to know when you're out, and that's "doing something." Is that not allowed?
A: Okay, in transition mode, your robot is allowed to get data from sensors other than the touch sensor." - Message by: CGMSC745 10/13/2007 20:45:36 GMT
Thanks for the info zap4702, so the robot can get light readings as it exits base.
Dhystad, yes, it can get a white in base, but I don't see any suitable black in base for calibrating on. By my readings of the rules, it would be illegal to set the robot down outside of base to get a black reading. The robot could drive outside of base to get the reading but it would have to completely exit base to do so and would be subject to all the normal rules. Overall though, this might be a reasonable approach.
Most tournaments have a short time period before the start of competition when teams can go to the competition table(s) to get light readings. This might be the best approach, just go out and run the canned calibrate routine before the tournament starts. The resulting calibrations are then available to all programs on the NXT. This approach uncouples the logic from the actual light values.
A little more digging in the software and it turns out there is a block that lets you take and store calibration values. On the "Advanced" pallet there is a "Calibrate" block which lets you collect the min and max values and use them to calibrate the light values.
As to needing to "hard code" the limits if you are using the raw values, I'm not at all sure that's true. Even if the rules specificly forbid you from taking any readings from a sensor while any part of the robot is in the base (I don't have the rules, so I'm assuming a worst case here), you could always have the first mission get calibration values as it goes out, and store these in a text file, instantly accessible to any future mission. This is, essentially, how the built-in calibration works: a program of some type takes some light readings, and stores them for future scaling. If you do this yourself in the code, it could function in a very similar way... except with higher resolution (0-1023, instead of 0-100)...
I don't see how that helps much. The problem with the raw values is that the actual light reflected from the mat varies depending on ambient light and how well the sensors are shielded from ambient. In a bright venue, "white" might be 600 raw. In a dim venue it might be 500 raw. Using scaled/uncalibrated values that would be 60 and 50. If you are writing a precision line follower there is a big difference between those two numbers. So, the calibration values need to be hardcoded into the program and they will change depending on the lighting conditions. You perhaps could store the values in a file and have every program fetch the values but the memory overhead for including the file I/O block is pretty big (adds 2.7KB to every program that uses it).
One advantage of using the calibration feature is that the resulting calibrations are automatically available to all programs with very little (no?) memory overhead.
I don't think resolution is really an issue. I would be very surprised if the light sensors, in practice, are accurate enough to justify 1 part in 1024 resolution. Heck, 1 part in 100 is probably pretty optimistic in the real world of an FLL mat.
The standard solution of protecting the light sensors from all ambient light of course still applies. It looks to me like the NXT sensors will be a bit harder to protect from ambient light than are the RCX light sensors. The NXT sensors don't work at contact distance, the RCX sensors did. With the RCX sensors they worked well if you used them as the front "skid" of a robot. The NXT sensors won't work in the same setup, they need to be up off the mat by a mm or two, so it will take a little more effort to screen them from ambient light.
In case anyone is interested, if you want to more or less mimic the behavior of the RCX/RIS setup with NXT-G, then set the light sensors to use uncalibrated values. A sensor pointing at the mat, and very close to it, will read black as 30~40 and white as 50~60, similar to the behavior of RCX/RIS. - Message by: brian001 10/14/2007 15:17:07 GMT
> This might be the best approach, just go out and run the
> canned calibrate routine before the tournament starts.
It probably is - exactly the same way it was done with the RCX. Except now you have a choice, either use the "canned" calibration, or DIY. In fact you could use the "canned" calibration from the menu system, or the Calibration block from the program, or DIY. It's nice to have choices - for one thing, it makes people (team members) think about which is a "better" choice, and why.
> The problem with the raw values is that the actual light reflected
> from the mat varies depending on ambient light and how well the
> sensors are shielded from ambient. In a bright venue, "white" might
> be 600 raw. In a dim venue it might be 500 raw.
Which would be a good reason to use a dynamic threshold that the program sets based on observed conditions - NOT any sort of "hard coded" values, as those will change from venue to venue (and even day to day, or ight sensor to light sensor). All that means is that instead of hard-coding in a limit or "target" value on a sensor block, you wire that limit in from a varialbe that has been established by the program earlier... or as I mentioned, established and stored in a text file.
> the file I/O block is pretty big (adds 2.7KB to every program
> that uses it).
Hmm. I've not actually had a problem with running out of memory, and I'd be surprised if 724 bytes for a File block (that's what I see) was a critical amount... or 150 more bytes for each additional instance.
> One advantage of using the calibration feature is that the
> resulting calibrations are automatically available to all
> programs with very little (no?) memory overhead.
True. I guess I simply don't like it because it's hiding something that I regard as an important teaching tool. Not that it's not useful, but that it's not transparent.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: CGMSC745 10/15/2007 01:28:46 GMT
By my counting, the first file I/O block in a program takes up 2.7KB on the NXT. If you have ten different programs, then the file I/O block (repeated ten times) will take up 27KB (~15%) of the NXTs memory.
Same with, for example, the move block. First occurance in a program costs ~5KB. Ten programs, each with a move block will use 50KB (33%) of the total memory just for those ten blocks. - Message by:0222520A 10/15/2007 07:32:52 GMT
Why would you have 10 different programs loaded on your NXT? If you are really fast you can probably change programs in 3 seconds. That's 27 seconds of table time used up just pushing buttons. - Message by: brian001 10/16/2007 01:52:04 GMT
First, how are you getting 2.7 kb? I'm a little confused, as when I compile a program that has just a single File Access block set to read, it comes in at just 778 bytes. A File Access block set to write comes in larger, at 2,036 bytes.
As Dean hinted, perhaps part of the soution is not to use 10 or 12 different programs. Just because the NXT no longer has the RCX's five-slot limit, doesn't mean that their aren't constraints, which is, again, a really good lesson to learn for the kids. If they run out of memory, then they're forced to do something different. Perhaps it's identify which missions are really "worth" going for, scrapping the others. Perhaps it is to really work hard at saving memory in a lot of new ways, developing skills with My Blocks, or eventually with single large programs as we've seen some teams do. Perhaps it will lead them to solutions like a single program that sets multiple limits in a text file, and reading that file. They might find that's better, or they might find that's worse... but on a platform as simple as the NXT and NXT-G, they can make those judgement calls themselves.
Those aren't hurdles to trip over - they're challenges to rise over. If FLL was all about winning, I'd have to say you've a point. If FLL is about teaching kids problem solving, then I think hitting the memory limit early is likely a *good* thing.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: CGMSC745 10/15/2007 19:57:12 GMT
Dhystad you have to remember that you and your team are substantially beyond where most FLL teams are.
Traditionally, most teams have run 5 programs on their RCX's. Moving to NXT means you can run an unlimited number of programs. Since there are ~13 missions this year (much more than in the past) it is not unreasonable that a team might attempt to do it with ~10 distinct programs.
With ten programs the file I/O overhead would be as I stated in my previous message (~27KB). The overhead for the various other blocks would also be significant. - Message by:0222520A 10/16/2007 17:41:41 GMT
With the memory constraints I see three solutions. One is to use less programs so you don't suffer the big "first use" penalty you get for using a block in a program (subsequent uses of the block within a program have a much lower memory "cost"). The second is you can write tiny programs that don't use many blocks. The third is that you don't do all the missions.
The thrird choice isn't going to be too popular. And I think that it is really hard, and not very rewarding, to write tiny programs that use a small subset of the available function blocks. So larger, more complex programs ends up being the easiest choice. - Message by: CGMSC745 10/16/2007 17:05:27 GMT
brian001 First, how are you getting 2.7 kb? I'm a little confused, as when I compile a program that has just a single File Access block set to read, it comes in at just 778 bytes. A File Access block set to write comes in larger, at 2,036 bytes.
The block size is based on how much space a program takes up on the NXT for a program that contains just a "File Access" block with the default settings (NXT-G version 1.0). An empty program file takes up 0.1KB on the NXT. A file of just the "File Access" block takes up 2.7KB total, so the block itself is 2.6KB. See the attached screen shot. Multiple copies of the "File Access" block in the same program probably each take up ~1/10 the amount of space as the first copy.
The "File Access" block also creates an 0.2KB file (MyFile.txt) in the "Other" category.
If you compare the available memory before and after downloading the "File Access" block program the memory useage went from 114.6KB to 111.3KB (at least with the current state of this paticular NXT brick). This suggests the total memory cost of the block is 3.2KB (114.6 - 111.3 - size of an empty program). - Message by: brian001 10/16/2007 21:38:04 GMT
I'll have to dig a little more. I understand what you did, but I've done it in a slightly different way, first pulling the compiled file off the NXT brick and back into the computer (where I can get a detailed accounting of the file size, better than the NXT window shows from within the NXT-G environment), and then later by using Jason King's "compile to file" tool, that invokes the same compilier that the NXT-G environment uses, but just puts the resulting file immediately onto the computer (instead of automatically downloading to the NXT bricks). The other difference is likely the fact that you seem to be testing using 1.0, while I'm using 1.1... and the memory and speed advantages of 1.1 are significant. You comment that the text file itself is also 0.2 kb, but here is where I like using text files - you can store a lot of information in them without making them very large, and reuse it, again and again.
--
Brian Davis
My team wants to try and use the ultra sonic sensor this year. They know how to program it but it seems fairly inaccurate. They are playing with the speed they are moving now to see if it will help but is there something else they should be looking at?
Thanks for your suggestions!
Michelle
Coach of The Electo Flies
Team 3806
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 03:06:42 GMT
I have not seem an FLL team that has used the US sensor in competition. Just remember that if you are up against another team using it, they will interfere with each other. The echo you hear may in fact be the other teams ping!
Year's ago I tried to use ultrasonics in a home made robot. After months of effort, I gave up on it for many reasons. One was poor accuracy.
-Skye "One Ping Only" Sweeney - Message by:0222520A 09/30/2007 03:52:00 GMT
Last year I saw may a half dozen teams using the ultrasonic sensor. Most used it like a bumper, but one team did some long distance wall following. None of them reported any problems. I don't know if two ultrasonic sensor robots faced each other in competition.
Ultrasonic sensors are very sensitive to the shape and surface characteristics of things. Flat and bumpy is good. Round and smooth is bad. Wide and tall is good. Narrow and short is bad. Hard is good, and soft is bad.
Even in good conditions each individual reading must be treated with suspicion. When I use suspect sensors in my work I take several readings and use the median or the mean. If you have several readings and sort them so they are in increasing or decreasing order, the median is the middle value. The mean, or average, is gotten by adding all the values and dividing by the number of values.
Sometimes I will use the median to throw away outliers, and use the remaining values to calculate an average. Outliers are values that are much different than the expected value.
Even a fairly poor sensor can give pretty good results. You just have to work a lot harder.
Dean Hystad - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 04:18:54 GMT
Dean,
Did you ever see two team with US operate on the same table? My experimentation shows this fails big time.
My problems with US were as you describe. My worst problem was taking a range when in a corner. The range returned was not the two feet to the wall, but rather 6 or more feet as the sound wave bounced of the wall accross the corner to the other wall and then back again.
It also took a while to realize that US was not a pencil beam but rather a fairly wide cone. The first reflection of any object in that cone would be the distance. Often that was the floor in front of me. Tilting up the sensor about 30 degrees was very helpful as my sensor was only 10 inches or so off the floor. Switching to a laser range finder solved many of my problems!
-Skye - Message by: Team4287 09/30/2007 07:29:09 GMT
I too have had similar "professional" problems with US, but this year my team wants to use it. Since I believe strongly in letting the students learn from their experience, I have not mentioned the pro's and cons concerning the sensor. Instead I been having them experiment with it.
Some of the things they did were:
1) Connect the sensor to the robot and via "bluetooth" move the robot by hand and observer the readings.
2) Wrote a simple program that spun the robot in a circle and when a post was placed near it, stop when the sensor detected it.
3) Wrote a program to move the robot at full speed towards the house and stop just before hitting it. Note: All the kids like this one a lot, especially when it hit the house because of a programming error.
Note: All of the above activities were thought of by the kids. All I did was ask the question: "How would you test the sensor?"
Even with my personal concerns, the sensor did well. While watching them I did notice there was a lot of "noise" in the readings and taking multiple readings should be done (as suggested by Dean).
As for interference during a tournament, the jury is out on that. In theory the could be some, but it all depends on the placement of the sensors. If both sensors are placed below 2-3 inches, then I would suspect that there will not be much (if any). But if one is above 3+ inches then the sound waves could go over to the other table and cause issues. Remember too that interface will occur only if both sensors are active at the same time. Knowing all this, I believe probability that the sensors will interfere with each other is low.
With all that said, I will reiterate, if the kids want to us it let them. If it doesn't work out, then at least they gain some experience :).
Note: One thing I have taught the kids is that if you are going to do something, tell that other team members what you are going to do and why. This helps GREATLY in communications amongst the members.
-- Stephen
Coach
CO FLL
MeteorStorm - Message by: legoaces44 10/03/2007 18:33:45 GMT
Our team used the Ultra Sonic Sensor last year in FLL competition with great success. They found US wall-following and distance sensing helful for several missions. The US Sensor is definitely not as consistent as a touch sensor, but this creates a great opportunity for learning about real life measurements and possible errors. Real world analog measurements are never completely accurate. The team found through testing including with another NXT sensor operating in the area that the errors were not as bad as some had warned. We were never up against another team using US, but I think that their robot would have behaved well with the precautions they took. There are definitely best practices they learned in sensor placement, programming and reliability. Several interesting questions might be:
- Where on the robot is the best place to locate the sensor?
- What types of objects are easiest to "see"?
- What programming techniques can be used to deal with inconsistent data or eliminate occasional bad data points?
- How can other sensors or positive location be used in combination with the US sensor for improved reliability?
- What distance ranges work best?
It might have been more work than it was worth, but it was fun to see the kids to explore the issues and find solutions. The relative novelty of using this sensor and the work required to make it run well won some big points with the Tech judges and resulted in a great performing robot. The US sensor is probably not required, but can definitely be used in FLL if the character of this type of measurement is understood and appropriate precautions are taken. Above all, have fun, and take advantage of every opportunity to use FLL to teach lessons that will certainly come up again later in life.
Thomas
Coach - Lego Aces - Message by: fotb223 10/05/2007 19:21:03 GMT
My kids used the US sensor at a competition this summer. Construction was about to begin on a science education facility. Instead of the traditional ground breaking ceremony where guys in suits dig up some dirt with gold shovels, they invited 4 local robotic teams to compete in a dirt moving contest. The dirt was actually washed aquarium gravel and moving it meant pushing it off a table. The team that pushed off the most gravel in 2 minutes one.
Of course it was critical that you pushed the gravel off but not drive the robot off the table! Our kids decided to use the US sensor, mounted out in front of the robot and pointing straight down at the table. It was an inch or two above the table. When the distance jumped up considerably, they had the robot stop and back up to base. It worked great. They moved 26 lbs of gravel in 2 minutes.
There was a US Congressman and other government officials that spoke at the event, but the robot competition was the big hit of the ceremony! - Message by: Team4287 10/05/2007 20:11:51 GMT
Wow, a Lego robot pushed off 26 lbs of gravel off in 2 minutes. That comes out to 2.1 lbs every 10 seconds. Very impressive.
-- Stephen - Message by: fotb223 10/05/2007 20:59:09 GMT
I attached a pic of the robot pushing gravel off the table. You can see the US sensor on the left.
Our new NXT robot has just been built. It has a bad left turn when we program it to go straight. Anyt ideas on how to fix this. I tried changing the motor powers, and it ended up going slightly right. This makes it impossible to even correctly hit the sattelite. Please help us!
- Message by: Team4287 10/05/2007 22:39:37 GMT
If you check the thread:
"UNITED STATES"->"FLL Equipment Discussions"->"Motor Questions"->"Our robot has a wiggle. Is it the motors?"
You will find a lot of debugging techniques to help "debug" your robot.
Quick Summary
You will find that the problem is one of the following:
* The robot motors are not square to each other.
* The wheels are different
* The NXT move forward actually is programmed to turn slightly (highly unlikely since you stated that it is program to go straight).
* The motor is damage and the distance encoder is bad.
* You have bad cables
* Assuming that you have a third wheel, that wheel is stuck and doesn't pivot.
* The NXT is bad (highly unlikely)
Good luck in debugging the robot. If you find the problem and especially if you don't, please add your results to this thread so that others can benefit from your learnings, as well as, assist you.
Stephen
Coach
MeteorStorm
CO FLL - Message by: brian001 10/06/2007 23:07:10 GMT
Other little points...
...are you using one Move block to syncronize the motors, or two Motor block to try to drive both motors the "same way"?
...are the cables firmly mounted?
...are you sure the steering slider on the Move block is centered (if you are using the Move block)?
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Energizers5288 10/17/2007 20:29:16 GMT
It also depends on how you set the robot up like if you have the all or most of the sensors and/or appendages it will turn in that respective direction.
QA22 in the Q&A discusses using add-ons and new programming blocks available for NXT-G. It states:
Patches, add-ons, and new versions of the allowable software from the manufacturers (LEGO and National Instruments) are allowed. Be careful, however, if you find yourself "sharing" programming blocks from other teams...Sharing is acceptable, but "grown-ups doing the work" is not. In any case, you must be able to explain the whats and whys of every bit of your programs to the judges, otherwise they can only assume you did not do your own work.
Am I correct in assuming that while sharing blocks written by other FLL teams is acceptable, it is not acceptable to use available NXT-G blocks written by adults, such as the Line Following Block written by Steve Hassenplug?
Thanks for any clarification.
- Message by: brian001 10/08/2007 20:37:21 GMT
I suspect they were talking about sharing My Blocks, since LabVIEW isn't authorized for FLL (and you need it to author custom blocks).
> ...such as the Line Following Block written by Steve Hassenplug?
Well, is he a team member, or an adult? Do you understand how it works? I would think this is a pretty easy situation to clarify... don't use it.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Team4287 10/08/2007 21:16:24 GMT
While "sharing is acceptable" between kids on different teams, I don't recommend that you do that for several reasons:
1) The kids need to understand how the program works. It is not very good to use a program and not know how it works. If the kids know how it should work, then they should be able to write their own program.
2) You don't know who originally wrote the program. Yes, another team may have shared it with you, but where did they get it (e.g., a coach, off the web, a college mentor, etc. all of which is bad).
3) It stifles team creativity. Instead of trying to solve the problem with the skills and tools they currently have, they have this program which they want to make work for their robot. Which, I may add, was written for a completely different robot.
4) Time will most likely be wasted using this program. Again for trying to understand the program and modify it to the robot to takes time and sometimes isn't possible. For example, if the algorithm was written for the light sensor to be in front of the wheels and yours is in back, then it will not work at all.
All is not lost...
Now what the kids could do is research different line following algorithms on the web (note: we are not talking about NXT or RCX code, just algorithms). They can then determine which one best meets their needs and program the robot to do that functionality.
*** Disclaimer ***
As far as I can tell, this is acceptable so long as the kids do ALL of the work.
F.Y.I. This is the second year for our team and we are just beginning to use the sensors. The only one they are currently using is the ultrasonic sensor. It is used once for one of the missions. All the programming is linear (e.g., move forward, turn, lower arm, move forward, etc.). Even without using the advance features and sensors, the did well last year and so far this year looks O.K.
Remember the fun is in the learning.
Stephen
Coach
MeteorStorm
CO FLL
Hi!
We are using Mindstorms NXT v1.1 and testing the programs, starting with the common palette. Smooth sailing, until #17 ("Follow A Line"). Steps 5 and 6 require entry of variables for the switch, but the box has a 0 in it and is greyed out, so we cannot change it.
So we tried a different program, but it also required a switch, and we ran into the same problem. We didnn't have a chance to try the program, but I don't suppose it would've worked without those variables (or worked very well, anyway).
We're all pretty new to this (the kids have only had 3 sessions together so far, and I'm a parent helping out), but they all get so excited when the robot ("Fred") does what he's told (actually, this really isn't his fault, but the kids were disappointed nonetheless). Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks!
- Message by:0222520A 10/15/2007 07:39:40 GMT
Is the action set to write?
The built in help is very good, and worth a read because it is packed full of useful info. - Message by: ShortCircuits4676 10/15/2007 16:55:13 GMT
Forgive my ignorance, but "set to write"? We're following the same procedure we have for the other programs, which worked (3 or 4 others) - follow the programming directions in the palette and then download to the robot (except this time we didn't finish and download it because of this problem).
We didn't (intentionally, anyway) "set" anything to "write" before, nor did we (again, intentionally, anyway - and I've tried this several times at home, as well), un"set" anything to write for these programs w/the switch... - Message by: brian001 10/16/2007 01:59:12 GMT
A variable can be set to "read" or "write". This is configured by radio buttons in the configuration pane. If the block is set to "read", the data entry field below, where you could enter a value, will be greyed out (& if memory serves, when you drop it from the pallet the Variable block is set to "read"). Click on the "write" radio button, and you should see that data entry area active and editable.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: zap4702 10/15/2007 21:08:01 GMT
I think you're looking at the box (bottom left?) which is supposed to display the reading from the light sensor. You don't enter anything in there, so the tutorial is a bit misleading. Instead, you read the light and dark values which allows you to determine the correct value to enter for the switch statement.
To understand this better you should likely review the other tutorials which use the light sensor, and look through the help files. If you're just getting started with NXT, I would also recommend the books by Jim Kelly. One is Mayan Adventure, and the other is the NXT Programming Guide which is available as a download here: http://www.apress.com/book/view/1590598717
Doreen, Coach
Team ZAP - Message by: ShortCircuits4676 10/20/2007 14:17:49 GMT
Thank you very much to all who answered my question. Your help, along with that of a coach from the DarthPanthers team, enabled us to get it to work last Wednesday! Not exactly as planned, mind you, but it worked (we first had to run the calibration program in the Tools menu). We haven't yet attempted to enter/edit the values in the switch (hopefully the box won't be greyed out now), but first things first...
Thanks again!!!
Larry
Parent/Coach
ShortCircuits, Brandon FL
I know to download mini blocks, you have to download and install the Dynamic Block Update first. I did that, extracted the folder, and clicked on Setup.exe to install. The install starts, but I get the message "can't find Lego NXT software, please install". I have been working with that software for weeks, it is installed. What do I need to do differently? I an running on a PC with XP. I am using Version 1.1 of NXT-G. Do I need to save the zip/extracted files in a certain folder? Do I run setup from somewhere specific?
- Message by:0222520A 10/24/2007 23:19:44 GMT
If you have V1.1 you do not need to install the Dynamic Block Update. That comes with V1.1. You also don't need the mini blocks. They don't provide any advantage over the regular blocks in 1.1.
My team has been creating my blocks and have managed to get a "broken" icon for the my block in the calling program. The icon is split vertically with a zigzag stripe. It doesn't seem to cause any problems, but I'm assuming it indicates something is wrong. I tried searching in the help, but couldn't find anything. Can someone point me in the right direction?
A related question - how do I change the text that is displayed on my my block icon? I can figure out how to change the picture on the icon, but not how to change the text or the description for the my block. Any tips?
Thank you.
Laura Hall
coach of the Castillero Middle School Greenalicious Strawberries
- Message by:0222520A 10/27/2007 03:24:13 GMT
There is an error in the broken MyBlock or it no longer exists. For me common reasons for a MyBlock being broken is a broken data wire (grayed out) or a broken sequence beam. I doubt the MyBlock or program are working correctly.
Save the MyBlock under a different name to change he text that appears in the block. You should then delete the block with the old name. Note that this will break all programs that used the old MyBlock. All MyBlock renaming and deleting should be done using the NXT-G software. - Message by: brian001 10/29/2007 16:03:36 GMT
Before you delete everything... you *can*, actually, get a broken-appearing My Block without any bad consequences at all (although this is the first time I've heard of anytbody else managing this trick). There are at least two ways I know to do it. One is to have wires feeding into and out of a Switch structure in tabbed view, where there are not properly connected "downstream" wires from some states. The editor will flag this as a problem, but the compilier is smart enough to provide default values when compiling the program, so it works just fine. The second way... well, I know there's a second way becasue I have one My Block that has this problem, but I've yet to find the root cause. I'm working on it (with NI).
So first, if the broken-appearing My Block is working (compiles to the brick, and does what you think it should), leave it alone and treat it as a cosmetic problem (and print this discussion off for the judges in case they ask, yes my email, etc. - I'm one of the guys helping debug NXT-G with NI).
And second, I would *love* to have a copy of this My Block (as well as any My blocks it depends on) to troubleshoot this further. Please, if you would, either post them here. Or, if you don't want to have other teams seeing what you've done (and I can understand that), feel free to email them directly to me at brdavis@iusb.edu. I am *NOT* a coach or involved with any teams, and will promise to keep this confidential.
--
Brian Davis
brdavis@iusb.edu - Message by: The Eagles 10/29/2007 16:11:23 GMT
Another way is to have a MyBlock that was created in v 1.0 with blocks that haven't been imported into v 1.1. We had this happen with "mini" blocks.
I want to be able to get the number of rotations from the rotation sensor block data hub. It seems to only output in degrees, and not rotations. Is there a way to do this? (other than adding a math block to do the divide) Thanks.
Laura Hall
coach of the Castillero Middle School Greenalicious Strawberries
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/27/2007 03:12:55 GMT
Take the ouput and run in through a math operator icon and divide by 360!
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 10/27/2007 03:16:29 GMT
The data hub on the rotation sensor block is labeled "Degrees". It only gives degrees.
Dividing by 360 is unlikely to give you what you want due to NXT-G numeric values all being integer or whole numbers. You will get 0 for degrees = 0 to 359, 1 for degrees = 360 to 719 ...
You could divide by 36 and get tenths of a rotation. That's 10 times higher resolution, but still much lower that degrees.
Why fight what the software wants you to use? Give in and program all durations in degrees. Or you could do what my girls do and program duration in millimeters. - Message by: CGMSC745 10/29/2007 18:08:47 GMT
It depends a bit on what you are doing.
The rotation sensor block gives the total rotation in degrees while the motor is running. According to the online help the angle is degrees in the range of zero to about 2.1 billion degrees. If you run a motor with the NXT connected to the PC, and the motor block selected in the GUI, the status block will display the current rotation angle in degrees, the numbers are not limited to the zero to 360 degree range.
You can convert the rotation angle from the sensor block, while the motor is running, to axle rotations by dividing by 360 (like Skye and dhystad said). The number will be correct except for the problems associated with integer math. To get a useable number, with reasonable precision, you might want to multiply the rotation in degrees by 100 then divide by 360, that'll give you rotations to the nearest 1/100 of a rotation. (Or, multiply by 1000 and divide by 360 to +/- 1/1000 of a rotation, or ...) Of course, the multiplication step limits the total rotation angle you can measure. But, even with a "multiply by 1,000" you can still measure angles up to about 1 million degrees, which I would hope is enough.
When a motor is stopped/brake the rotation is either reset or the modulo 360 is calculated and the final number will be between zero and 360 (or -360 and +360?). I haven't been able to figure out what exactly the NXT is doing in this case. I've never seen a number greater than 360 displayed once the motor is stopped. You occasionally get a red number displayed in the GUI which I believe is how the GUI displays negative rotations. - Message by: greenaliciousstrawberries4041 10/29/2007 22:05:20 GMT
Thanks for all the replies. We were just using the rotation sensor block to wire in a value for ending a loop based on how far the robot had driven. (You can't wire in a value into the sensor loop block directly, thus the need for the rotation sensor block, a math block comparison, and a logic loop.) So we've simply switched to thinking in terms of degrees instead of rotations for how far the robot has traveled. Less confusing.
Laura Hall
coach of the Castillero Middle School Greenalicious Strawberries
How can you transfer the mindstorm program written from one computer to another? I can't get it to copy on a zip drive because it is a strange program format
Scott Pinheiro Team 1497
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/27/2007 20:12:52 GMT
I move files all the time as well as have files on a common file server. What type of error messages are you getting?
-Skye - Message by: brian001 10/29/2007 16:06:15 GMT
If it's a problem with the zip drive for some reason not wanting to copy it (perhaps a copy-protection or firewall issue), try making a zip archive of the entire profile, and copying the archive to the zip drive (assuming the zip drive accepts archives), transfer it that way.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: storm1552 11/01/2007 04:09:11 GMT
When you move files, do you have to drill into the folder structure to find the program/mission files as well as the other folder for the mini blocks? Or is there a portion of the folder structure that you can just copy and paste into the second machine? - Message by: brian001 11/01/2007 16:42:11 GMT
If you copy over the entire profile, it should work on the new machine. If you want to copy just a single program from one machine to another (or one profile to another), then you could copy over that single .rbt file, as well as any My Block .rbt files it needs (putting them into the proper folder on the destination volume), as well as any My Blocks that the My Blocks need, etc. Sometimes, this gets a little involved (personally I've got a standing library of interdependant My Blocks, so it is sometimes a problem when somebody "wants to see my program").
--
Brian Davis
I can upload the file generated from a record/play block, but does anyone know the format of this binary file?
- Message by: brian001 10/29/2007 16:07:38 GMT
I don't, and I only know of a few people who might. Why do you want to decode that format? What are you trying to do with it? I'm trying to figure out if there might be an easier way to get what you need.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/30/2007 03:44:43 GMT
I might see where they are going. Use the record facility to snag a complex travel path. Convert the record file to a series of moves/turns. Program that series as NXT-G icons so that you could fine tune your mission.
Does not sound resonable for an FLL team, but sounds like a good AFOL project.
-Skye - Message by: brian001 10/31/2007 17:51:04 GMT
Perhaps. But an easier way that hacking the file format would be to write a program that follows a simple series of commands held in a text file - a script. Then write a second program that can automatically generate such a script for you by watching the wheels, etc. Using this sort of implementation, you could even add script commands to watch sensors, etc... could be interesting. I know of at least one implementation of this already, and it worked rather well for that individual.
--
Brian Davis
I'm trying to get Bluetooth communications set up using the internal Bluetooth on my Inspiron 1420. I'm using NXT 1.1. The Mindstorms Software can find the NXT, and will ask for a passkey -- but the NXT brick never responds by requesting that the passkey be coded into it. It eventually times out and says there has been a passkey verification error.
Interesting, when I try to connect to the NXT from the Control Panel in Windows Vista it finds the brick, the brick brings up the passkey input screen, and after puting in the passkey the brick gets successfully connected (ComPort 8 serial outgoing, ComPort 9 serial incoming)
I've tried to set up the passkey on the NXT using Vista then connecting using the Mindstorms software, but that generates the same error. I suspect the wrong ComPorts are being used.
Anyone have any suggestions?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 18:29:48 GMT
My experience with BT has been very mixed. I have not used an interal device on dongles. Sometimes they works out of the box, with just the XP drivers, sometimes you need to load the device drivers that come on the disk. Sometimes the PC will crash multiple times during the installation, sometimes it loads fine. It is very frustrating considering the great benefit of having it working! Wish I could offer advice.
-Skye
Every time I try to create a My Block... I highlight/select the blocks I want in my MyBlock, open the Edit menu, select Make a New MyBlock, then I get the Insane Object error message. What am I doing wrong? Or what can I do to determine what the error is? I get this message when I try to make a Myblock out of just only 2 blocks connected by 1 wire.
- Message by: brian001 11/01/2007 16:48:49 GMT
If this is happening [i]every[/i] time, hmmm... Try this. Quit the environment completely. Restart it, and open a blank sheet. Now drop a single Math block (set to "29+13" for instance), followed by a single Number-to-Text block, followed by a single Display text block. Now wire the output of the Math block to the input of the Number-to-Math block, and the output of the Number-to-Math block to the text input of the Display text block. Follow these blocks with a Wait (for 2 seconds or so) block so you can see the results, and download and run it to make sure it works. Either click-drag to select the Number-to-Text block and the Display block, or select both of them by shift-clicking each individual block. Once those are selected, click on the "=" tool in the toolbar to rip them into a My Block. Does that work (as in not give you the error)?
By the way, that's a mighty handy little My Block to have around. Now you can just display a number when you need to (say, for debugging) with a single block.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/01/2007 17:35:11 GMT
Last year we had all of our missions in one program. Naturally it was a huge program. We had around 7 My Blocks incorporated into it. Somewhere along the line we got that message every time we would open/save the file. It didn't prohibit us from doing anything, but it got rather annoying. I kept murmuring, "If the object is insane, send it to an asylum."
-David (the kid) - Message by:0222520A 11/01/2007 22:23:44 GMT
I usually get the insane object message when the sequence beam is broken or a block isn't attached to the sequence beam. If the beam is broken inside a MyBlock you get the message for any program that uses the MyBlock. One time it turned out that a block had been placed on top of the sequence beam, but not attached to it. I used to have this problem all the time in ROBOLAB, but it was the first and only time I saw it in NXT-G (though it is easy to simulate). - Message by: redrobots2969 11/28/2007 14:47:00 GMT
We're getting the same "insane object" error when we save our file. It contains 6 MyBlocks similar to your 7 from last year. The error reads "Insane object at BDHP+85D4 in "Power v3.rbt":{graphics} (0x80): Wire (SGNL)". I'm going to have one of the kids build a new program and see if it goes away. Also similar to your David the error doesn't keep any of the programs from running properly. Not sure how that can be.
Phil Martin, Co-coach
Red Robots #2969 - Message by: The Eagles 11/28/2007 18:55:06 GMT
We, too, started experiencing insane errors in the last three weeks. If we close NXT-G and reopen it (with the previous version of the program), things usually work fine.
For us, the problem appears when there are two instances of the same MyBlock inside a switch nested inside at least one loop. The sequence beam twists itself into odd shapes (which often can't be seen unless we extend the length of the switch block). Often NXT-G has moved blocks so they overlap other blocks.
It is often preceeded by an error message about bad data wires which reappears every time the cursor is over the screen. If we can move the cursor up to the top of the screen to close the program, we can often hit ENTR and the message will disappear long enough to close the program.
Our work around has been to save the program every time we change it, so at least we have something that will work after we restart NXT-G. - Message by:0222520A 11/28/2007 20:00:59 GMT
You should combine some of the blocks into a My Block so the NXT-G layout algorithm doesn't get so confused. It might also make it easier for humans to read.
We ran into a problem with a move block that has a mind of it own. The kicker is we remember having a similar problem last year, but don't remember how we got around it. We have a program that has about 8 move blocks. The program runs fine until the last move block. All robot motion is exactly as the program dictates, but then the last move block is just ignored, goes twice as far, or ignores changes we make. It is almost like the computer will only except so many blocks and then gets lost. Anyone have a similar problem?
Thanks,
Steve
- Message by: TT5627 11/05/2007 17:03:47 GMT
We had the same problem last year, but we only had the block not do the motion. The way we got around the problem was putting the same exact block behind it, but it doesn't look like it will help you if sometimes it does the motion, and sometime doesn't.
Teach Tales 5627
P.S. You might want to talk to the Free Radicals the had the same thing happen to them at a Bot'ober fest robot run. - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 17:07:18 GMT
Is the motion that fails a small distance? As in perhaps a handfull of degrees?
Try to put a small wait (1/2 second) between the motor move icons. This will allow the motion to settle before the next icon executes. This often will improve accuracy and may solve your skipped icon problem.
-Skye - Message by: MM 2703 11/05/2007 18:04:53 GMT
Thanks for the tips.
Teach Tales 5627
Do you have the contact info for the free Radical's? Can you point them to this thread to comment?
Skye,
No the motion is not small. We are making a 90 deg robot turn. Exactly the same way we do earlier in the same program. I will try the 1/2 second wait trick. None of the other blocks have a problem so.... hmmmmm. still looking for cause of problem.
Keep the ideas comming.
Thanks
Steve - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 18:15:56 GMT
I do not have an active team. If you want, you can send me their program to Skye@fll-freak.com and I could take a quick look at it.
-Skye - Message by: The Eagles 11/05/2007 18:18:17 GMT
We found that inserting a Sound block immediately before the offending Move block solved the problem. Once the problem is fixed, you should be able to remove the Sound block, and your program should work fine. The problem seems to be related to a number of Move blocks in a row. - Message by: MM 2703 11/05/2007 20:43:14 GMT
I tried putting a sound block right after the bad block. since it was the last block in the program for a while it looked like it never got to that block. the beep worked fine, but the block stil gave me vairable results. If you can put a sound block in there and then remove it, then it seems to be a reset issue. Last year when it happened I thought we needed to reset the rotation sensor, but we never do on any other blocks.
Is there a way to clear the rotaion sensor after let's say every 5 move blocks? I found the "reset move block" command but that does something different.
Maybe just breaking up the series of move blocks with a different type of block is all you need. I will try that tonight.
Since it sounds like more people have had this problems lets keep the dialog going. I don't think we have the problem clearly defined yet.
As an added piece of information. half way through the program we do "square up" on the wall. by running one motor for 1 second. I thought that druing this skid type move that we messed something up. But that doesn't make sense since the next 3 move blocks immediatly after it work fine. it's the 4th move block after that that has an issue.
Keep the ideas comming and I will report back on what we find.
Thanks.
Steve - Message by:0222520A 11/05/2007 20:51:49 GMT
The PID algorithm that controls the motors is a wonderful thing. It synchronizes the motors so you can drive in a straight line, and it fixes move errors so the robot goes where it is commanded. But the PID implementation in NXT-G is far from perfect (as demonstrated by the "wiggle" that many teams have reported).
If you write a program that contained 5 MOVE straight 120 degree move blocks the distance at the completion of each move block could be thus:
1 - 130 degrees, Move = 130 degrees, Error = 10 degrees
2 - 240 degrees, Move = 110 degrees, Error = 0 degrees
3 - 365 degrees, Move = 125 degrees, Error = 5 degrees
4 - 490 degrees, Move = 125 degrees, Error = 10 degrees
5 - 600 degrees, Move = 110 degrees, Error = 0 degrees
Notice that not all the moves end where expected, nor are the durations as programmed, but the end result is the same distance.
Sometimes this works, and sometimes it doesn't. In my experience it usually doesn't work as expected or desired.
So how do you get around it?
If you set the next action of a"Move" block to be "Brake" then the robot will move exactly the distance programmed. But from the example above you can see that the robot may not be exactly at the desired location when the move block is done. The PID algorithm sometimes needs a little extra time to "correct" the error. How much time you may ask? I can't say. Speed, friction, power settings and weight all affect the performance of the PID loop. Some experimentation will be required.
So why, as the Eagles reported, does inserting a sound block help? My assumption is that the sound block was configured to wait until the sound was completed. This gave the PID algorithm a little extra time to work it's magic. I'm sure that a wait for time block would give the same result.
The Move block and Reset block Help files have some additional information about how moves and distances and being done with a move and moving accurately all interact. It's a bit complicated, but is a VERY IMPORTANT THING TO KNOW.
Dean Hystad - Message by: The Eagles 11/06/2007 02:25:44 GMT
When we had the problem last year, I believe every Move block ended with a brake command, and I think the kids even tried putting Wait blocks for .5 seconds after every Move block to give the motors time to come to rest. The sound was just a single note, and I don't remember whether they waited for completion or not.
We are running v 1.1 this year and haven't had the problem, but they also don't have a lot of Move blocks strung together this year, so it may not be related. - Message by: CGMSC745 11/05/2007 21:22:33 GMT
I believe the online documentation says that the motor's rotation sensors are reset everytime the brakes are used, as dhystad mentions.
If the brakes are not used then the overshoot will accumulate differently than it does if the brakes are used. The online help has a small discusion similar to what Dystad describes. - Message by: zap4702 11/05/2007 21:26:43 GMT
My team encountered this last year when they put several shorter programs together into their program manager. Sometimes the programs would run the way they expected, and other times not - it turned out that running certain segments in sequence changed the behaviour.
They solved it by inserting a Stop icon at the end of each program segment. This seemed to reset the rotation sensors and allowed each part of the program to run as expected, no matter which sequence they were run in, whereas the Reset function wasn't effective for this.
Doreen,
Team ZAP! - Message by: MM 2703 11/08/2007 06:53:55 GMT
Ok here are the results of the test. I can turn the problem on and off. Here is a generic description of the program.
1. Move - straight- motors B, C
2. Line following loop for x secs.
3. Move- stop- motors B, C
4. Move - flip arm-Motor A only
5. Move - Motor C only.(square up against the wall)
6. Move - straight- motors B, C
7. Move - turn 90- motors B, C
8. Move - straight- motors B, C
9. Move - turn 90- motors B, C
10. Move - straight- motors B, C
All move blocks end in Brake not coast. If I run the program above, steps 9 and 10 never execute. If I put a 1 second wait command after step 8. Nothing changes, steps 9 and 10 still don't execute.
I deleted step 5 and 9 and 10 suddenly work.
OR
I make step five run motor B AND C,Then 9 and 10 suddenly work.
Or
if I leave step five with motor C only and add a Move (stop) block after step 5, then 9 and 10 suddenly work.
If I go back to the above program, steps 9 and 10 never execute. So clearly something is happening in step five that gets the robot wacky. The weird thing is that it doesn't show up until step 9. Steps 6,7,8 run fine.
As mentioned in an earlier post step 5 is a "square up" against the wall move. The robot front is touching the wall at an angle. Running motor C for 1 sec. forces the robot to be straight against the wall before it backs up. So it is feasible that the PID algorithm gets lost for a second, but WHY does the problem not manifest itself until step 9 instead of causing problems with step 6, 7 or 8?
Also, if the Move(stop)BC block fixed it in position 5.5 why does it not fix it in position 8.5?
Thanks for the Tips,
Steve - Message by: The Eagles 11/08/2007 17:28:22 GMT
My GUESS is that the block is releasing the semaphore for port C before the motor has completed moving for the specified time. However, only the folks at NI know exactly how these blocks were built, and there is no way for anyone else to see what is going on inside the block. You might try the following:
Does the progam run if you just hold the robot in your hand? Have you tried applying 100% power in the square up block? Have you tried moving motor C for a number of degrees instead of a length of time. I assume you are using a Motor block for the square up. Is "Wait for Completion" checked? - Message by: MM 2703 11/08/2007 18:46:07 GMT
<>
We tried that early on and I think the answer was no. I will try again now that we can turn the problem on and off.
<>
The power is currently at 100%
<>
No, because because using degrees on a skid type move opens up the potential for the robot to get stuck if the tire grabs and the motor stalls before the required degrees have been reached. I have seen too many robots hit the target and just sit there while the team waits for it to return but it never does. That being said, I will try it for the sake of experimentation and understanding this problem.
<>
No, all the blocks are MOVE blocks. In my last past the word "move" at each step denotes the type of block. I could try the motor block as a comparison and see if it has an effect.
Thanks everyone for all the feedback. I will report back with addition information after we try the above.
Does anyone else "square up" on the wall and run multiple steps afterwards? Any issues?
Thanks,
Steve - Message by:0222520A 11/08/2007 21:56:33 GMT
My team squares up all the time. They use two motor blocks because they don't want the move block to try to synch the motors.
It's difficult to debug software when you can't see the software. Your description is nice, but it is unlikely that you are going to report an error in your code. If you could see the error to report it you would have fixed it already.
I'd be willing to take a peek at your program if you want. I don't want to post my email here, but it's pretty easy to find
Dean Hystad - Message by: brian001 11/08/2007 22:17:52 GMT
I too would like a copy of this program perhaps (I'm not affiliated with any team - but I do know the folks at NI and would try to submit this bug to them). Before I ask you to send it to me, I was curious about two things. First, is the FW on the NXT the most recent (1.05, I believe) and what version is the NXT-G SW (1.0 or 1.1)? I thought the last time this was a problem that was addressed by a FW update... but this could be a new problem, or my bad memory.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: MM 2703 11/09/2007 06:58:24 GMT
The robot we bought from FLL last year has
NXT v 1.0 and firmware 1.03
The robot we bought from FLL THIS year has
NXT v 1.0 and firmware 1.01
From the online upgrade button the latest Firmware is 1.04, yet I have seen people talk about 1.05. Where is it?
Am I missing something or was I supposed to get NXT v 1.1 with my kit this year? I got it through FLL.
I must have gotten a robot kit that has been sitting in the warehouse for a while to get it a year later and have older Firmware. I don't want to start a whole other thread, but did others get nxt v 1.1 with there FLL kit? and do I want to upgrade the firmware? the upgrade website http://www.lego.com/eng/education/mindstorms/home.asp?pagename=softu&l2id=4_3&l3id=4_3_2&l4id=4_3_2_2&sw=1.0&fw=1.03&edu=true
said only upgrade if you are haveing one of three issues listed. None of which are my issues.
I don't mind sending a copy of the program out to a few of you. Let me try a few things and document what is going on better. Maybe I can get to it this weekend.
Thanks again for the continued feedback.
Steve - Message by: brian001 11/09/2007 17:57:42 GMT
First, by all means upgrade to the 1.05 FW - I think this might fix your problem, (crossing fingers). You can find it at the LEGO MINDSTORMS support page (which is remarkably hard to find from the LEGO pages, actually):
http://mindstorms.lego.com/support/updates/
Second, I think you were supposed to get v1.1 with the kit this year - talk to your local FLL organization or FIRST about this. It's very... puzzling... why the kit you got this year would have older FW than the kit you got last year.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: hoffman1702 11/22/2007 17:13:23 GMT
FWIW, we have the new firmware and this "move" issue is still a problem. Lego Education is aware of it and recommends using a Wait or sound --that does fix the problem.
It would be nice if there was a simple way for coaches to find out about these glitches--maybe an email to everyone registered or something in program documentation. We were practicing yesterday and ran into it...the program skipped one whole block and my mentor and I were scratching our heads wondering what was up.
Teaching kids to troubleshoot a glitch in our programming is one thing, but having to deal with a problem in the Brick's code-well, I found nothing in the help file that deals with it or explains it.
I have to say, I'm not terribly impressed with the overall functionality of the NXT program...but then I'm a Mac-user--and live in a world where everything works pretty much seamlessly. Guess I'm spoiled!
Cynthia - Message by: MM 2703 11/26/2007 19:15:39 GMT
Update: Turns out we were supposed to get V1.1 with our kits and for some reason our software was on back order. We called the company and they shipped out the new software. I loaded V1.1 on the computer and upgraded the firmware to 1.05. Our problem went away.
Cynthia, do you have NXTG V1.1 or 1.0? When you say you have the latest firmware, do you mean 1.04 or 1.05? Seem like a stupid question, but when I had V1.0 software and clicked on the update firmware link it sent me to the lego site with 1.04 being the latest listed. This didn't make sense to me since I heard everyone talking about 1.05. I am guessing that 1.04 firmware is the latest for the NXTG 1.0 and that 1.05 firmware is important only if you have NXTG v1.1.
Steve
Our team was programming and we tried to create a My Block. We highlighted the icons and clicked "create new My Block." We proceeded to give it a name and a fun picture. When we clicked finish it said: "The My Block name is invalid. You cannot name the My Block the same as another open program." We were slightly confused by this message because we did not have an open program named "forward to line." We tried another, slightly more unique name and that didn't work either. Finally we tried trying a string of numbers just in case it was taking names from any files we had on our computer. That didn't work so we tried other things such as highlighting different things, re starting the computer, and re installing the software. None of these have worked. We would be very thankful to hear any suggestions that anyone may have to fix this problem. Thanks.
- Message by: The Eagles 11/08/2007 17:30:47 GMT
Did you name the program that you had open when you created the MyBlock? The name of that program and the name of the MyBlock have to be different. - Message by: Technoteens4707 11/08/2007 23:15:50 GMT
The program was named "1st program" and we tried my block names such as "forward to line.", and "adlfsagj", and even "uberdeathblock." So that shouldn't be the problem. Thanks for trying though. (We also attempted to create the My Block in an untitled program if thats what you meant and that didn't work.) - Message by:0222520A 11/09/2007 01:59:40 GMT
This is really weird. I've tried to make MyBlock creation fail by setting the directory to read only, or trying to mess up where MyBlocks will be stored and I can't get creation to fail.
Try this:
1. Start up the NXT-G program.
2. Select the user profile you normally use.
3. Press on the "Start New Program" "Go>>" button.
4. In the "Edit" menu click on "Manage Custom Palette"
5. In the file browser that comes up double-click on "My Blocks"
6. Click on the down arrow to the right of the "Address" bar.
Where does it say you are storing your MyBlocks? Check if this directory exists and that you can write to it.
Strange indeed.
Dean Hystad - Message by: brian001 11/09/2007 18:02:11 GMT
> ...I can't get creation to fail...
I've actually heard scattered reports of this, but I've been unable to duplicate it either. If memory serves, at least one person had this problem due to installing v1.1 on top of v1.0, and solved it by cleaning out the old installs completely (save your profiles - those should be usable again) and doing a clean install of v1.1. But I, too, would really love it if someone can figure out a way to reproduce this error.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/08/2007 23:39:01 GMT
Very strange. I just tried this a bunch of times with no problems. My steps were to highlight the blocks, use the "convert to my block" from the Edit menu, Type in a file name, clock the next button, pick an icon then click finish. I get no errors.
I am wondering if the permissions on the folder that hold MyBlocks is set properly. Did you do something funky to point to a network drive? Did somebody delete the MyBlock folder?
Have you tried to create a new profile and try it there?
-Skye - Message by: Technoteens4707 11/10/2007 00:04:01 GMT
Upon attempting to click "manage custom palette" we got an error saying file not found. * Check the file name for capitalization or other typing errors.
* Check to see if the file was moved, renamed or deleted. - Message by:0222520A 11/10/2007 03:45:45 GMT
Well at least we know the problem. The directory is gone.
On my install the directory for the "coach" profile is:
MyDocuments\
LEGO Creations\
MINDSTORMS Projects\
Profiles\
coach\ <-- This is where my programs are
Blocks\
My Blocks <-- This is where the MyBlocks are
You should have a similar directory on your computer. - Message by: Technoteens4707 11/17/2007 00:03:05 GMT
We did all that stuff with the directory and it worked fine. We even found some MyBlocks we had used last year. I was interested to see if we could just edit the MyBlocks we already had made before. So i clicked on custom palette and received the following error:
ErrCode: 7, Error Soure, List Directory in
DynamicCustomPalette.vi-
(>)LoadBinaryPaletteFile.vi-
(>)ManagePalette.vi-
(>)StartupEditorPalettes.vi-(>)MerlotEditor.vi*
the parenthesis were used because without them, it formats it differently, when reading, disregard them. - Message by: Technoteens4707 11/21/2007 23:34:19 GMT
Thank you so much. All this info was very helpful. I am not sure exactly what one thing we did to fix it, but now it works. Thanks again.
Is there a good way to do a version control? If you have a set of program that work well to a point, can we save that so that we can go back to that working version if our modification didn't work out?
Thanks
Kee Sup Kim
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/09/2007 03:35:16 GMT
Absolutely! Disaster recovery and version control is the hallmark of a top team.
You can perform backups simply by making a copy of your working area. This is normaly under "My documents/LEFO Creations/Mindstorms Projects/Profiles/'your profile name'". Copy this directory to a thumbdrive or other media. Remane the directory to be something like "Profile-110807".
The only problem is that NXT programs are binary. There is no way to 'diff' two programs to see what you changed.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 11/09/2007 04:44:08 GMT
The easiest way is to save the program under a different name. We have solarPanelV1, solarPanelV2 and now solarPanelV3. - Message by: brian001 11/09/2007 18:04:43 GMT
Although this does fall afoul in some cases of My Block changes. In other words, if you change a My Block somewhere you might "break" an older program that depending on the old version of that My Block. If that gets to be an issue, you can back up the entire profile by copying it and renaming it. That way you have a "frozen copy" of not only all the programs, but all the My Blocks that you developed at that moment in time.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: oxfordenergy0234 11/19/2007 20:10:30 GMT
If you are in a windows pc enviroment, I patched together a batch file I have been using to do this for me. The file copys (or xcopys) the content of the profiles directory to another location (in this example, c:\backup\lego) with a directoy that is the date. After a meeting is over, I run it, (I back up to a network share drive) and then I can sleep at night. The work is in the "Set CC" command to get the date, which I owe to google and some site I do not remember...
Legoback.bat
SET CC=%DATE:~4,2%-%DATE:~7,2%-%DATE:~10,4%
xcopy "C:\Documents and Settings\smcbride\My Documents\LEGO Creations\MINDSTORMS Projects\"*.* c:\backup\lego\%CC%\*.* /s /e /v
pause
Scott McBride
OxfordEnergy0234 (MI) - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/30/2007 17:39:46 GMT
I just love this batch file. Very simple. Very eligant. Very functional.
For those with more stringent backup needs, I highly recommend a cheap ($30) program called HandyBackup. I use it extensively on my network to backup data to my file servers. But it would also do simpler tasks as the above batch file.
-Skye - Message by: oxfordenergy0234 12/07/2007 05:49:04 GMT
OD, if you like that one, this is the one I use....
I did not share it earlier, because I was not sure if some of the environment variables it used were actually set in a non-domain environment.
I tested it on a media center pc that was not in a domain, and all of the variables were set, and it worked correctly.
All of my pc's auto login in so I do not bother with users on my network share, but it you had multiple users, you can add the %username% to the output directory, to capture individual users files on the same pc.
Code:
SET CC=%DATE:~4,2%-%DATE:~7,2%-%DATE:~10,4%
xcopy "%userprofile%\My Documents\LEGO Creations\MINDSTORMS Projects\"*.* S:\Documents\NXT-Backups\OE-PROGRAMS\2007-CURRENT\%CC%\%COMPUTERNAME%\*.* /s /e /v
xcopy "%userprofile%\My Documents\LEGO Creations\MINDSTORMS Projects\"*.* E:\OE-PROGRAMS\2007-CURRENT\%CC%\%COMPUTERNAME%\*.* /s /e /v
pause
the first xcopy sends it to my network share drive S: the second sends it to my thumbdrive.
With this I can back up my 4 programming PC's in about 5 mins and know I have the work in 3 places, and ready to go if there is an issue.
Thanks for the kind words.
-Scott
There have been some reports that NXT-G will not upgrade the brick FW under Mac OS 10.5. I run NXT-G on a Mac and have upgraded to OS 10.5, but not tried to update the FW under this system as yet. I believe NI and LEGO are aware and working on this problem, but...
IF you experience "CBS" (Clicking Brick Syndrome) under NXT-G 1.1 and Mac OS 10.5, please feel free to report it to this discussion. If this happens, try to find a machine that has *not* been upgraded to 10.5 to restore the FW.
--
Brian Davis
Has anybody else noticed that the light values you get from the NXT in the view mode are different than the values the NXT-G software uses?
If you run the NXT-G light calibration routine and then use the NXT-G software to get the light reading from the dark and light areas that you calibrated on, the software says the values are about zero and about 100. Exactly what you would expect.
If you then use the NXT's built in sensor view routine the NXT displays values of ~40 for black and ~60 for white.
The ~40 and ~60 values are not the numbers that are available to the software. I'm not sure exactly where the 40 and 60 numbers come from. I wonder if they are scaled, but uncalibrated, versions of the raw light values. Perhaps calculated with something like;
Display value = (1000)(raw light value)/(1023)/10
or
Display value = (100)(raw light value)/(1023)
(These equations are written to take into account the problems with integer math.)
Or, perhaps the displayed value is just the raw light value divided by 10 and then anything over 100 is replaced by 100?
This is kind of annoying since the NXT has everything it needs to display the scaled and calibrated light values.
Even if you use the uncalibrated raw light sensor values in your programs it is still unclear what the built in sensor display value represents.
- Message by: The Eagles 11/09/2007 23:09:18 GMT
Yes, there are two light sensor values you get in NXT-G. The raw value is what you see in the view mode. You can access that value through a data wire in NXT-G if you want to use it in your program. Typically, people use the calibrated number (0-100). If you want to view that number, you can write a simple program to display the light sensor value on the NXT display. - Message by: CGMSC745 11/10/2007 00:18:29 GMT
Actaully, no, the raw value is not what you see in the view mode. It might be close to raw/10 but it is not the "raw" raw value (which ranges from zero to 1023).
how would you send programs to another nxt or computer?
- Message by: brian001 11/11/2007 05:45:58 GMT
I'm not sure what you mean - perhaps you could be more specific. For instance, are you asking how to send a program from the computer to an NXT that is connected with a USB cable? Or send a program that is already on an NXT directly to a different NXT (using Bluetooth)? Or something else entirely?
--
Brian Davis - Message by: colebots545 11/21/2007 02:15:33 GMT
im talking about sending a program to one NXT to another! do the kits come with the bluetooth? - Message by: 11/21/2007 03:39:26 GMT
Deleted - Message by: lightsavers2634 11/21/2007 22:02:15 GMT
So you want to send a program from one NXT to another? First you need to turn on bluetooth on both of the robots. Then with the NXT that has the file, search for the other NXT. When you find it, connect with it, then go to the file that you want to send. Select "Send". The program should show up on the other robot. Hope this helps!
-David (the kid) - Message by: colebots545 11/28/2007 02:25:04 GMT
thanks
Hi:
We're using NXT-G v1.1 It's been loaded on our computer since early Oct.
Our team is having a problem with the program files. Yesterday they created 2 new programs. They saved them and everything seemed fine. In fact, one of the programs was opened this morning. When they tried to open them this afternoon, it said:
"LEGO MINDSTORM NXT encountered an error opening the program file at "...\filename.rbt". "
Has anyone else encountered this error message? Any ideas what could have caused it?
- Message by: brian001 11/14/2007 16:46:24 GMT
No, I've not had any problems like that (& I've been using v1.1 for some time now). Look to see where, when you save a program, the environment is trying to put it - it may not be aimed at the proper profile, for instance, which might be part of the issue.
Is it just those two programs, or are *all* of your programs failing to open in this way?
--
Brian Davis - Message by: powerstormers 11/14/2007 19:22:21 GMT
We lost 5 out of 7 programs. Two of the five had been used the day before with no problems.
The only thing we've come up with is that the kids were working on a laptop that had a power saving feature to automatically shut the computer down if it wasn't touched for 5 minutes.
We've changed that setting, and now it's a wait and see. Also we are doing more backups, and print outs with comments.
But it would be nice to know for sure if that was the problem. - Message by: Windward6087 11/20/2007 07:31:52 GMT
Do the filenames have unusual characters in them? We had a similar situation when we transferred the programs to a Mac running OS X 10.3.9 -- one of the filenames had a slash in it, and the error message was similar to what you described (sorry, don't remember the exact error message). Re-naming that file seemed to solve the problem. We also re-started the computer. (But we had tried that before, too, and re-starting alone didn't fix it). Now we name files with only letters, numbers, dashes, and underscores.
Can someone explain how the NXT programs are sequenced when they are downloaded? My team seems to spend a lot of time left/right clicking through program names. Programs don't seem to be listed alphabetically and it seems you need to clear all programs and then download in reverse run order to be able to use the right arrow button to sequence through. Also, when a program is done, it seems that the display sometimes jumps to a random (or "first" in its reference) program. The button clicks are maddening and I can't explain it!
- Message by: The Eagles 11/13/2007 15:03:10 GMT
I'm not sure how they are loaded.
If you want them in a particular order, clear all the programs out of memory and reload them in the order you want them. - Message by: Chicnology 11/14/2007 12:03:03 GMT
Sort of...The last program you download will be the first to appear on the NXT screen. In other words, download the programs backwards to the order you want them run.
If you make a change to, let's say, program #3 and re-download it to the NXT it will be the first to appear on the NXT screen.
Could your kids find a way to eliminate the whole "scrolling search, orange button, right arrow" method for running their programs, which could save valuable time during the 2.5 minute round?? - Message by: bears299 11/21/2007 21:50:21 GMT
For over a year, my two wishes for LEGO to create have been:
1. Packages of short (4") wires
2. Change software so that when you back out of a program, the view screen stays in the same spot, so one right arrow click goes to the next program, instead of defaulting back to the first program in the sequence.
Linda - Message by: brian001 11/22/2007 16:05:38 GMT
> Packages of short (4") wires
Well, those exist (NXT Extended Connector Cable Set from Hitechnic, they same folks who make the compass, accelerometer, color, & gyro sensors that LEGO sells). And FIRST should probably look into adding some of them to their kits - but that's an issue you'd have to take up with FIRST, not LEGO. I agree, the 4.75" cables (2) that are included in the Hitechnic package are some of my favorite. As is the one really long (90 cm?) lead that 's included (for datalogging and stationary robots).
> Change software...
I'm not sure how hard that would be to do or not. It would take changing the firmware on the brick, and would be possible. Hopefully they're listening.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: bears299 11/22/2007 21:36:30 GMT
Careful, the Hitechnic cables are not LEGO brand, so cannot be used in FLL. That's why I want LEGO to sell them. I ordered several 3-packs of 8" cables from LEGO to get as short as legally possible.
If you have 9 programs on the NXT, after doing the first 5, use the left arrow to get to the last 4. Saves a few clicks.
Linda - Message by: brian001 11/27/2007 23:12:48 GMT
True. But they certainly exist. As I said, it then becomes a question of if FIRST allows them (after all, the mat isn't sold by LEGO either, while most of the other Hitechnic stuff does). As I said, now the question is one of marketing & distribution, not production.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 11/28/2007 21:13:09 GMT
Yes, I'd like those short wires too! What we did once was to (loosely) fold a longer wire into a Z shape, and use Lego rubber bands to hold the shortened folds in place. This didn't really work in the long term, but it sufficed at the time.
NXT-G v1.1 and Firmware v1.01
When using the NXT-G switch block is the switch instantaneous or does it have a "wait period"? We've had trouble using the switch block for example with a touch sensor. We were placing a 0.5 sec Wait Block before the switch block to give the operator time to press the touch sensor or just let it go down to the lower code. The problem is it isn't always working the way we're thinking it should.
Phil Martin, Co-Coach
Red Robots #2969
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/25/2007 20:22:41 GMT
A switch is sampled and acted on "imediately". When that icon gets executed, the sensor is sampled, evaluated, and then the right branch is taken.
What you might want to consider is a "Wait for" icon using a touch sensor. This icon will pause the program till the appropriate termination clause is satisfied. For a touch sensor this could be a press, release, or a click.
-Skye
Is there a way to specify which user profile is to be used when the program starts? I'm thinking there might be a way to set the desktop icon in windows by giving what is called a command line parameter that tells which user profile to start with. I'm tired of fishing stuff out of the default profile. :-)
- Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 11/28/2007 19:19:17 GMT
I hear you. Hope someone has an answer!
I'm thinking of writing some kind of script that will automatically delete anything called "Untitled1" too! Grr! - Message by: brian001 11/28/2007 23:12:34 GMT
In v1.1, the default profile is hard-coded to come up when the program starts (v1.0 did it alphabetically, so you could trick it a bit by using a profile starting with "a", for instance). So I don't think there's any way around that - the default is just that, the Default :)
One thing you can do to make things go a tad bit quicker is have NXT-G start up with the Academy content closed, and the frontmost pallet something other than the "basic" one. These are advanced features that can be accessed by dropping a LabVIEW VI into the environment, which will show up as a new menu item in the Tools menu. However, THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL MODIFICATION! I'm not sure how FIRST would view this, so I'm somewhat reluctant to go into it in depth (Skye or others, if you have thought, place contribute them)
--
Brian Davis - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/29/2007 00:16:08 GMT
Not sure how FIRST would see this.
Personaly, I see a big difference between an adult modifying the NXT-G environment to customize it and an adult providing a new programming icon. I would have no issue with a student that said
b "Pa did some magic in NXT-G so that we got this menu to select our profile from".
That modification would not give that team a significant advantage.
-Skye
In creating the code for our robot we broke each of the mission down into MYBLOCKS. This was great until we backed up the myblocks to a memory stick. We incrementally integrated each of the MYBLOCKs. 5 of them went flawlessly. However, #6 is given us real fits. After we backed it up there is an error having to do with file locations for the this 6th MYBLOCK. The problem we are seeing is that the NXT does random things when the program gets to this 6th block. We tried to rename the MYBLOCK but still the same problems with block #6. We erased all of the programs inside of the NXT but to no avail. We know that the 6th mission runs fine on its own.
So my long-winded question related to suggestions on how to get the known "good" progeram string made into a new MYBLOCK and re-integarted into the master program.
THANKS!
BWET
Solar Monkeys
- Message by: The Eagles 12/02/2007 04:54:01 GMT
Have you tried copying and pasting the contents of the MyBlock into a new program and saving it with a new name? - Message by: lightsavers2634 12/02/2007 06:41:38 GMT
What happens when you select program number 0? (This happened on our first master program last year too.)
-David (the kid) - Message by: solarmonkey949 12/02/2007 16:20:29 GMT
All:
Early this AM (I could not sleep as this behaviour is not very logical) I switched the program to another NXT module.....guess what there was no issue. I went as far as to re-enter the one mission the kids had programmed from scratch! I also tried to not use a MYBLOCK in the overall program. In BOTH cases with the "BAD" NXT module we noted the same behavior. We even tried new batteries. I do not believe in gremlins! this must be some firmware glitch. Is there a way to reload the firmware or do these symptons smell of something else?
BWET
Solar Monkeys - Message by: The Eagles 12/02/2007 17:14:32 GMT
There are two things you can do to clear the memory on the NXT brick. 1. You can reload the firmware from NXT-G and 2. You can reset the NXT. See http://www.lego.com/eng/service/faqs.asp?section=ConsumerService-FAQ-TechSupport&catid=5658F538-8F0A-441B-B52C-D70A70B6E91A&faqid=20910&tech=true#20910 for more details. (Why does my NXT brick fail to boot or just sit and make a soft clicking or beeping sound?) Hope it works so you can get some sleep tonight! - Message by: brian001 12/06/2007 19:24:48 GMT
as others have noted, you can restore the FW from the NXT-G envrionment. Start up the environment and *open a program* (any program, even a new blank sheet - you have to do this to enable the Tools menu). USB connect the misbehaving NXT to the computer, & go to the Tools menu and select Update firmware. That should do it. While you're at it, I'd suggest checking which FW version is on both these bricks - it may be that one is an older FW than the other, for example. I would upgrade to the newest available (1.05 from the LEGO support pages). I agree, this sounds suspiciously like a FW problem.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: EndlessEnergy1991 01/08/2008 21:15:00 GMT
This sounds like the firmware goofup that haunts all NXT's. Try putting a "Motor Reset" block just ahead of the program block that fails. The problem is a runtime issue that fails in the same place, but sometimes depends on preceding program steps. All complex programs will eventually get lost in space, and somehow the "Motor Reset" at precisely the right place gets it back to earth.
LEGO PEOPLE -- PLEASE FIX THIS!!! - Message by: brian001 01/10/2008 16:18:42 GMT
Well, two points - first, it's not "the LEGO people", as much as LEGO (who had a deep hand in writing the firmware) and NI, or National Instruments (who developed NXT-G). Second, I've actually been unable to reproduce this problem under the current (1.05) firmware. In short, they did fix at least one version of this problem (thanks to FLL teams for uncovering it last year). If we can have a documented, simple case under 1.05, I might be able to forward it to the correct people at NI & LEGO.
--
Brian Davis - Message by:0222520A 01/11/2008 08:14:00 GMT
If you write some kind of "program launcher" it is very important to reset the motors before running a mission myblock. This is to clear out any previous move errors that the NXT is going to try to fix during the next move. It is not a bug. It's just a feature that is nice sometimes, but can be a real pain if you forget about it.
Aside from the automatic block layout, NXT-G and the firmware (V1.05) are pretty robust. Most of the problems I encounter are caused by my own ignorance. Better documentation would go a long ways towards making the software seem less flaky.
In creating the code for our robot we broke each of the mission down into MYBLOCKS. This was great until we backed up the myblocks to a memory stick. We incrementally integrated each of the MYBLOCKs. 5 of them went flawlessly. However, #6 is given us real fits. After we backed it up there is an error having to do with file locations for the this 6th MYBLOCK. The problem we are seeing is that the NXT does random things when the program gets to this 6th block. We tried to rename the MYBLOCK but still the same problems with block #6. We erased all of the programs inside of the NXT but to no avail. We know that the 6th mission runs fine on its own.
So my long-winded question related to suggestions on how to get the known "good" progeram string made into a new MYBLOCK and re-integarted into the master program.
THANKS!
BWET
Solar Monkeys
In creating the code for our robot we broke each of the mission down into MYBLOCKS. This was great until we backed up the myblocks to a memory stick. We incrementally integrated each of the MYBLOCKs. 5 of them went flawlessly. However, #6 is given us real fits. After we backed it up there is an error having to do with file locations for the this 6th MYBLOCK. The problem we are seeing is that the NXT does random things when the program gets to this 6th block. We tried to rename the MYBLOCK but still the same problems with block #6. We erased all of the programs inside of the NXT but to no avail. We know that the 6th mission runs fine on its own.
So my long-winded question related to suggestions on how to get the known "good" progeram string made into a new MYBLOCK and re-integarted into the master program.
THANKS!
BWET
Solar Monkeys
In creating the code for our robot we broke each of the mission down into MYBLOCKS. This was great until we backed up the myblocks to a memory stick. We incrementally integrated each of the MYBLOCKs. 5 of them went flawlessly. However, #6 is given us real fits. After we backed it up there is an error having to do with file locations for the this 6th MYBLOCK. The problem we are seeing is that the NXT does random things when the program gets to this 6th block. We tried to rename the MYBLOCK but still the same problems with block #6. We erased all of the programs inside of the NXT but to no avail. We know that the 6th mission runs fine on its own.
So my long-winded question related to suggestions on how to get the known "good" progeram string made into a new MYBLOCK and re-integarted into the master program.
THANKS!
BWET
Solar Monkeys
Our robot can sometimes complete a mission perfectly but there's always a random element where it fails to execute the rotations we tell it the same way each time which is highly frustrating. Turns sometimes rotate farther than the previous time, or less far, or somewhere down the middle. I thought NXT had a built in rotation sensor to prevent this variability?
The kids have tried using aiming devices, replacing the tires, the brick, the motors, checking the straightness of the wheels and axles, etc. We switched to the rechargable battery which helped, along with other changes they made, but the randomness still continues. Being off by 1 inch is one thing, being off by 3 inches at random is killing us. Even when the robot is not pushing anything it happens. This behavior happens on every mission seemily at random. Again, the mission programming is successful, but only sometimes. We just can't seem to rely that 1 rotation will be the same each time when it runs. We even tried to align the robot to a wall using the touch sensor which helps, but does not fully solve the problem.
I'm a computer engineer and have reviewed their programming and robot design. It all seems to be quite clean but I must be missing something as I fail to see how any of the missions requiring more than 1-2 turns will ever reliably arrive at its destination. I'm open to any suggestions. Is anyone else having this problem?
- Message by: The Eagles 12/02/2007 17:19:23 GMT
You would think when you rely on the rotation counters the NXT would do the same thing every time. As you have found out, it doesn't. Battery voltage has a big impact, which is why things are probably better with rechargeable batteries. There are a lot of other variables, but in my experience they can be minimized by carefully monitoring what the robot is programmed to do next. Try putting a Wait block after you turn and see if that helps. - Message by: bears299 12/02/2007 19:26:53 GMT
Also, try degrees instead of rotations. But in general, when the robot turns, you are at the mercy of the friction gods. As you run over, rub, and scrape the mat, the friction changes. As dust settles on the mat, friction changes. You probably have noticed that straight missions work much more reliably. My team always tries to do a mission without using any turns. The missions that require turns are worked on last, as they are considered the hardest to score consistantly with.
Linda - Message by: Chicnology 12/02/2007 22:26:23 GMT
Congratulations Stormcats...
You have just earned your official FLL frustration badge and we welcome you with open arms to our club! Wear it with honor and it goes nicely right next to the FLL battery frustration badge.
The light sensor will turn out to be your robot's best friend. There's an official frustration badge for that one too! - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/02/2007 23:23:03 GMT
Sounds like a great niche market. Somebody with an embroidery company should jump on this! I get sooo frustrated, I might just direct deposit.
-Skye - Message by: lightsavers2634 12/03/2007 03:05:41 GMT
Since you are having problems turning, I would suggest you try turning with just one motor instead of the two.(If you haven't already done that) This keeps the pivot point from drifting.(This can happen if one wheel spins faster then the other) In using this method, your pivot point should always be in the same spot. (The center of the motionless wheel)
You also might look into changing the distance between your wheels. Having them farther apart increases the torque of your turns. (This helps a LOT when you push objects) and the rotation count will be higher (The count also increases when you spin just the one motor.)
(If you haven't noticed, I love using parentheses abundantly.)
-David (the kid) (there I go again...) - Message by: tanrobotics 12/03/2007 12:49:10 GMT
The NXT is much better than the RCX at accurate distances, but you still have to take into account some variability based upon the board (i.e. bumps, curves, dips). In our regional qualifier this weekend, we had problems with just one tournament board (and it so happens to be the one we had to compete on for the semifinals and final round!). None of the kids or mentors could figure it out. After the tournament was over, when we pulled the mat off the board, we found a really sharp screw protruding upwards that caused the problem. It was near the base area that we had overlooked because we were looking for imperfections futher down the robot path. My guess is that the bump near the base increased the rotation/degree count of one of the wheels, which the NXT later compensated for MUCH LATER down the sequence of blocks, which is why we kept looking for imperfections further down the board.
One of the things you can try is to lower the power of the program. I.e. run the same program with power setting of 40 instead of 75, and see if you get the same variability or not.
Also, put in several 1 second pauses between each turn to see if you can catch whether it is a specific turn that is giving you problems or not. Depending upon the design of the robot, you can get some slippages/skids during a turn. You might also try throwing in a few reset motors along the way as well.
In addition, have you updated your firmware to the NXT 1.05 firmware (included in the NXT 1.1 software shipped this year)? I found the behaviour of the move block to have changed with the NXT 1.05 firmware. The 1.05 firmware seems to do a better job at consistently travelling the same distances.
Paul Tan. - Message by: StormCats2927B 12/03/2007 17:04:34 GMT
Thanks. We'll watch more for board variability but I know that's not the whole issue. Any tips on getting the mat completely flat? We placed velcro at each end and tried to stretch it out but a couple places remain with slight bumps. We fix one wrinkle just to create another.
The battery power level seems to make a difference (at least when we were not using the re-chargables -- big mistake). The Power setting for the motor can change behavior but doesn't seem to improve accuracy much if your tires are not slipping.
For us, it's not a single turn that's the problem. It can be any turn, even the very first one. From what I can tell, the greater the rotations, the greater the room for robot error. My guess is the rotations are only accurate within a +-10% or some undetermined range.
What's a "motor reset" and how do you do it?
Yes, we're using version 1.1/1.05. We didn't notice any big changes after doing that except being able to fit more missions into the memory space. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/03/2007 17:19:18 GMT
DO NOT try to remove the wrinkles! When you go to competition you will be running on less than perfect tables. Some of the best teams practice on multiple tables. Some are 'perfect' and others are horrible (rough walls, knot holes in the plywood, warped plywood and borders, models not in exact locations, ...). Only when their robot completes the mission 10 out of 10 times on each table is the mission considered finished.
-Skye - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/04/2007 08:28:45 GMT
As for getting the mat completely flat -- judicious use of a hair dryer can be helpful. - Message by: StormCats2927B 12/03/2007 16:52:32 GMT
Thanks for the feedback. As a computer engineer, I love the way this teaches problem solving, teamwork, attention to detail, and strategy. However, when you have a 10 year old child who works for weeks on a mission only to find out you must start all over again from scratch because the manual never mentioned battery voltage severely affects performance, or that rotations are never 100% accurate, it's disheartening to them (and even me).
The issue I see is that so much is interdependent upon previous robot turns or design decisions that little mistakes can have huge impacts. It's all too easy to put in weeks of work only to have to start all over again. I suppose that is a life lesson in itself for the kids.
However, I'd like to see a list at the start of the season warning (or at least educating) the coaches and kids about the fundamental bugs/limitations in the lego hardware. For example, the manuals clearly imply that the RCX rotation sensors are accurate (which they are not even when you minimize friction and other factors) and that batteries must be kept as close to full charge as possible, and NEVER use non-rechargables.
Now that we understand some of the bigger glitches in the hardware, the kids can actually begin brainstorming potentially workable ideas to overcome them. It's when these hardware issues are not clearly documented is where you can find months later kids crying, wanting to give up, and developing a hatred (rather than a love) toward programming & engineering. (First impressions go a long way)
We will persevere though. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/03/2007 17:13:55 GMT
One reasone a list of problems is not published is that that information is "proprietary". Not to LEGO, but to the teams that spend countless hours finding the limitations and working around them. Publishing that list undermines that intellectual property.
Now some will jump on this and claim it viloates the GP ordinance. At some level it does. When I edited the UFAQ I was always walking a think line between "giving it all away" and not saying enough.
This whole issue is why (on the whole) rookie teams struggle and veteran teams rule. They have learned from there failures.
b Experience is directly proportional to the amount of equipment ruined.
-Skye - Message by: StormCats2927B 12/03/2007 18:30:39 GMT
I understand why teams may not want to give away all their tips, nor should every tip and strategy be published in the official FAQ to where the kids have no challenges to solve. I'm just saying the FLL powers that be should consider creating an FAQ that at least warns about some of the biggest hardware issues (rotation accuracy and battery power in particular) that can bite you late in the game as lego documentation implies these are not issues. We're just lucky that all our kids are home schooled and we have the ability to triple our hours on the project to hopefully make up for lost time. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/03/2007 18:39:10 GMT
Most of what you want talked about is already in the UFAQ.
Q8.8.5) Is an NXT robot sensitive to voltage?
A) Yes it is, but less apparent if you are using the synchronized "Motor Move" icons.
Q16.5) Our robot does not drive straight. What is the matter?
A1) This is a constant irritation with FLL teams. In fact, it is very rare for the average robot to drive straight. A full answer to this question is beyond the scope of the FAQ.
A2) Nothing is the matter. Remember that no two motors are alike! Try to find the two motors that are most similar.
A3) Work with what you have. "When life gives you lemons, make lemonade".
A4) Brainstorm with your team to determine what all the factors might be that would cause the hook. Then run some experiments to isolate the problem.
A5) Some information is provided in the FLL Team Manual.
A6) Read the document Building LEGO Robots for FIRST LEGO League
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 12/03/2007 17:55:38 GMT
The rotation sensors are very accurate. The problem is that this does not translate to having an accurate robot. The robot's design will have a bigger impact than an accurate rotation sensors. Teams did amazing things with odometry in the old RCX days, and that rotation sensor had much lower resolution (16 counts per revolution instead of 360) and known repeatability problems.
There is a lot of information in books and on the web about the shortcomings of odometry, and the odometry problems peculiar to the NXT. You just have to spend some time looking. Maybe it's time to accumulate and codify. Send me an email with your NXT building and programming issues and I'll try to put together a NXT specific version of Building Robots for FIRST LEGO League before next season.
Yes, I know I said the same thing last year, but this time I really mean it.
Dean Hystad
dean.hystad@mts.com - Message by: The Eagles 12/03/2007 20:39:41 GMT
I always tell people that these are $250 toys, not $250,000 machines. Adults who are probably more used to the world of $250,000 machines, expect precision and repeatability. You just aren't going to get that with robots made by snapping LEGOs together (although a well built NXT can be pretty good).
My advice would be to think about ways to minimize variability and to deal with whatever level of variability you can't eliminate. For example, you can trigger the Solar Satellite by hitting it with the end of an axle. I doubt there are many teams trying to do it that way, because you have only a small margin of error. If, instead, you hit it with the front of your robot, your robot doesn't have to get to exactly the same place every time to accomplish the mission every time. - Message by: tanrobotics 12/04/2007 02:22:04 GMT
I don't even know if that comparison is valid. I used to work on multi-million dollar aircraft (C-130's and Apache helicopters), programming their cockpit and heads up display units. I can tell you for a fact that the NXT robots are pretty darn good already! My brother used to work on the Cruise missile systems and we used to compare notes. Believe me when I tell you that I am personally pretty impressed already with the NXT's accuracy.
You still need to do the various tricks to re-align the dead reckoning, but it is almost the same extent as what I had to do for the military aircraft!!
Paul Tan. - Message by: CGMSC745 12/18/2007 00:16:11 GMT
Like Dhystad said, you have to differentiate between the accuracy (and reproducibility and precision) of the rotation sensor and the accuracy (and reproducibility and precision) of the turn that the robot actually does.
Perfect accuracy of the rotation sensors does not necessarily translate into perfect turns of the robot.
Wheels slip, the controller is fudging the power levels up and down (when using a move block anyway), if something is being pushed it will sometime separate from the robot by a variable amount before a turn which affects the turn. Imperfections in the table and mat interact with the wheels and skids of the robot in subtle ways. The power level of the batteries affects how quickly the power ramps up which in turn affects the chances of a wheel loosing traction, and on and on.
In my teams experience (and as others have posted) one wheel turns are a bit more consistent than two wheel turns. But one wheel turns are more likely to have wheel slippage since you only have half the tire area to apply the needed force.
Motor blocks are a bit more consistent than using the "radius of curvature" slider control in a move block. The "radius of curvature" control has the problem that it tries to control how much the two wheels turn but it doesn't appear to keep track of when they turn. (A turn that is supposed to be a pivot with each wheel turning by half a rotation in opposite directions is different than a turn with one wheel followed by the other wheel turning in the other direction. When the wheels turn affect the turn and the final position of the robot.)
Sometimes you just can't do a turn the way you initially want to. Our robot this year turns OK but it really dislikes doing one wheel turns with the wheel going backwards. It tends to loose traction, particularly when lugging a heavy jig. We just had to brainstorm for a while and figure out another way to do the turn. "Left wheel backwards" is about the same as "right wheel forward" but our robot does the forward turn much more consistently than the back turn.
This year we had a one wheel forward turn pushing a pretty heavy jig. Stopping before the turn, waiting for 1 second, resetting the rotation sensors, powering up the turn slowly still gave a very inconsistent turn. We finally figured out that a "flying" turn (no stop before the turn, we just shut down one of the motors with the brake) was much more consistent since we didn't have to get the weight of the robot and jig moving again. Since we weren't accelerating the robot or the jig nearly as much with the flying turn the wheels kept traction and the turn was much more consistent.
I believe the NXT and it's sensors are truly remarkable devices for what they cost. These things will do exactly the same every time if there are no variables. In the real world there are other variables.
We've even noticed that the traction on a new mat is considerably better than the traction on an old mat. Testing a program that has a tricky turn in it 10 times is enough to significantly, and permanently, change how a small area of the mat interacts with the tires.
So, it is kind of like the old joke along the lines of;
Patient: "Dr. it hurts when I hit myself in the head"
Dr: "Then stop hitting yourself in the head"
If the robot won't consistently do a particular turn in a particular way then figure out a way to not do that turn, or figure out a way that is consistent.
I have been monitoring this forum and it appears that many people are having trouble with NXT-G programming from time to time. Now that our tournament is over (we did OK), I had my kids do a little experiment: I showed them how to do some feed-back based programming and had them solve a couple of problems.
Results: NXT-G crashed in some inexplicable fashion on EVERY attempt (3 to date). What's more, I (experienced programmer) have tried to do these on my own, and ditto ... not one worked for long before NXT-G scrambled something. Unrepairable sequence bars, disappearing blocks, unexplained missing wires, wires that won't connect, etc. Each error essentially axes all previous good work.
At this point my best kids are about to chuck all of robotics. It appears to me the NXT-G works as long as you stick to very simple branching, very few variables, maybe one or two switch blocks, and anything more complex crashes.
Are the rest of you seeing this as well?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/06/2007 02:17:50 GMT
I have similar problem with broken wires. I attribute much of it to a very slow interface and my not waitting for the screen to refresh. But I suspect there are still some bugs under the hood.
My I suggest RoboLab?
tanrobotics "Using meeting time efficiently?" 12/5/07 11:03pm>
-Skye - Message by: tanrobotics 12/06/2007 02:33:01 GMT
Skye: ROFL! We really should get together sometime and just have a chuckle over all this ;)
Re: NXT-G issues
Yes, that is a MAJOR problem if you try to run it on low powered computers. Unfortunately, the way it was written really needs at least a 3.0GHz CPU or higher, and at least 1GB of RAM.
I use my notebook which is a bit lower powered but still with 1GB of RAM, and I can still see the slowdowns and notice when it is starting to queue up the mouse moves and clicks. Especially if you are doing ANY SORT OF Data wires within loops.
The problem I find is that when a broken wire occurs and you attempt to fix it when the NXT-G software still has not caught up to your mouse clicks, there is some funny race condition there that seems to aggravate and compound the errors. I find the best way is to walk away from the laptop for 15 minutes, come back and then delete the block where the broken wires were attached to. That seems to clear it up for me.
However, if you are running it on a system with less than 1GB of RAM, be aware that you might actually run out of memory and NXT-G will crash on you.
I hope this helps.
Paul Tan. - Message by: Team4287 12/06/2007 05:51:59 GMT
Yes, I too have noticed this problem too.
Note: If you really want to have fun, make a 5-7 level nested conditional branch (not a switch statement). I will almost each time cause the program to be bad or make using the interface unbareable.
The problem is not only associated with the GUI user interface but also the compile program. Tonight, my team called me over to show me how the robot was "performing" strangely. They had a simple program that had a series of moves. Every once an awhile the program would "pause" for 3 or 4 seconds after a forward move before executing the next program.
I couldn't find anything wrong with the program. We then created a "new" program and copied the original one to it. We never saw this "issue" again. And no, I didn't see any "hidden" blocks :). In cases like this, it would be great to have a disassembler.
On the good side, have such a memory and process consuming application interface is a great reason to "upgrade" one's machine. That is what I did last year and am very happy with laptop (how else could I justify it to my wife :) ).
Stephen - Message by: tank3270 12/10/2007 22:57:48 GMT
Close ... but not what I'm seeing. We're running on a 3 GHz machine (dual core) with fair amount of memory. I'm pretty sure it is not a click-ahead problem.
What we're seeing is execution bars simply disconnecting and unable to reconnect (e.g. execution bar is on one side of a sensor query and not on the other side), re-layout problems where blocks simply disappear under other blocks and now way to find them again, cases where you cannot connect wires between two blocks where those blocks were previously connected with the same wire (e.g. create two blocks, wire toegether successfully, move one off the execution bar, move it back onto the execution bar... wire doesn't work.)
My team is so frustrated we downloaded NXC and are now using that to learn programming and have fun; NXT-G is so obtuse, slow and confusing that I was on the verge of loosing all of their interest.
Dan. - Message by: tank3270 12/10/2007 23:01:24 GMT
Skye,
I'm a little hazy on this... what is Robolab? Is this the software we were using with the RCX previously? (looks like raw labview?)
Dan. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 23:07:58 GMT
Labview looks very much like raw LabView. You can still get Robolab from Pitsco.
-Skye - Message by: CGMSC745 12/18/2007 00:29:39 GMT
I think "Generally Flakey" is a bit strong but probably basically correct.
The interface clearly does have some problems. It is easy to get ahead of the GUI and have a block dropped somehwere unexpected.
There appears to me to be a problem with copying multiple blocks off the main execution beam. When they are pasted there is a tendency to get an extra program beam under the pasted blocks. You can move the blocks individually off the beam and get to the point where there is just a floating beam. This really confuses myblocks. (You can drag-highlight across the floating beam and delete it with the [del] key.)
It seems to me that a big part of the problem is that the underlying GUI is built up from an overly complex interface. There is really no reason why a 1GHz processor would be insufficient to run the GUI. What the GUI intrinsically does is just not all the complex. The way it does what it does is where the complexity, and problems, come from.
Just a WAG, but is NXT-G parsing everything into and back out of XML? Talk about a painfully slow way to do anything. - Message by: EndlessEnergy1991 01/08/2008 20:54:44 GMT
LEGO is a TOY. But LabView is a commercial tool. If LabView is trying to promote their business to budding engineers with this sloppy, dumbed down, error prone interface - THEY FAILED! I've been extremely frustrated by the clumsy manipulation of parallel beams, haphazard cut and paste, and unbelievable slow reactions. Beyond the developer tool, I can't believe the compiled images have soooo many bugs! Once a program is slightly complex, the robot randomly skips steps. The "Motor Reset" seems to be a work around, but what a goof up. Beyond that, the "MyBlocks" that show up on the editor aren't always the ones that compile! AND the variables passed out of a MyBlock can't be trusted to be the value that was wired! Cheap TOYs can be tolerated, real systems can't. I keep confusing that, but if the LabView people ever read this, I hope your happy with a lousy reputation. - Message by: StormCats2927B 02/11/2008 23:20:36 GMT
I too have seen a lot of UI problems and slowness. Our bigger problem is with the motors not doing what they're told at random, or changes not seeming to take.
You mentioned it not compiling myblocks. We use a number of myblocks. Exactly what have you seen happen and how have you fixed it? Any tricks to making it compile properly? - Message by: brian001 01/10/2008 16:27:23 GMT
One thing that seems remarkable to me is that I haven't had 95% of these problems. Which is not to say they aren't real, or don't matter - they DO, especially if people are complaining about them. But just that they don't seem to be everyones experience, even those of us who have ended up writing somewhat complex programs.
I've written complete menu-driven systems, running off text files on the NXT to define the menus, with user input via a different form of menu, and autonavigation software for a Packbot like robot, all with no problem. I've written a scripting language for watercraft (where if something "broke", I'd get to watch my NXT literally sail away into the sunset... or worse, sink), all in NXT-G, and without all the frustration or worry of many in this thread. Have I had problems? Absolutely - but nothing that has made me want to give up NXT-G, or move to a text-based language.
There are *abilities* that are present in other languages that I wish I had access to (preemptive multithreading and fast execution, for instance). Eventually, I'll probably move that way. But the behavior of NXT-G isn't one of them. Just my two cents, and I have to agree that other peoples experiences will differ.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: Team4287 01/10/2008 19:07:27 GMT
Brian,
One of my biggest learnings I had in software development is that people don't necessarily use your tools the way you designed it to be used. So if the user uses the software as tested to the implementation or learns what not to do, all is good.
For most of the kids, they are learning how to program and they make mistakes using the tool, which in turn causes "artifacts" to occur that "sometimes" show up during execution. In addition, they forgot what they did to get in the tool to be in a bad state. Worst yet, many times they don't recongize the that system is in a bad state.
And I agree with you, if I was programming the robot, I wouldn't have much problems. Mainly because I know how debug tools, isolate problems, and program in an encapsulated and incremental fashion. So when I do encounter a problem, I am rarely blocked for I quickly have a work around.
While the GUI tool does have problems, I am more concerned about the firmware. I have convinced myself that there are problems with the threads and will be debugging it over the next few months. And yes, I will pass my findings onto Lego. Hopefully, they will patch it before the next season starts.
Stephen (Software / Firmware Engineer)
Coach CO FLL - Message by: The Eagles 01/10/2008 20:18:38 GMT
We, too, would like to play with the firmware. However, I have no experience with the IAR Embedded Workbench. I would really appreciate it if someone were willing to walk me through the process of building the firmware. - Message by: Team4287 01/10/2008 20:39:15 GMT
When I get the system setup to debug the firmware, I will be sure to let you know. I don't expect to start this task until late February (I currently have too many items on my plate).
Note: I did do a google search and found several web sites that support compiling and downloading new firmware to the NXT-G boxes. I haven't had the opportunity to evaluated them to see if they are helpful or not...so 'developer' beware.
Note: I did do some pretty extensive "static" review of the firmware source code, along with running some "simple" programs that exhibit the "issues".
-- Stephen
We have our state competition this saturday and for last two days our NXT is acting up. Randomly for some programs it says running but nothing happens. It has happened with two programs so far. These programs were working fine.
In one of the program we added reset block and it started working, however this did not work in other program.
Has anyone seed this kind of behavior.
Thanks.
- Message by: StPeterTeamTwo 12/06/2007 20:13:00 GMT
When you get odd behavior on your robot, try updating or reinstalling the firmware. Our robot was randomly skipping blocks in programs. Updated the firmware and it ran great. It's a good first thing to try! - Message by: HarmonyStallions4352 12/07/2007 17:08:20 GMT
Sorry for silly question but what is firmware - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/07/2007 18:05:20 GMT
Firmware is like the operating system on your NXT. When you first get a brick from LEGO, it has no "firmware" installed. The first thing NXT does is to install it for you. When LEGO finds a bug with the firmware, they can create a new version for you to download.
In the menu system is a way for you to find out what version you are using, download a newer version and load it into your NXT.
-Skye - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/07/2007 21:56:05 GMT
We had one issue where the program says it is running, but nothing is happening. My analysis was that in our case, the robot had run into the house (and stopped) but the MOVE command had not yet completed its assigned 5.6 rotations. It was waiting to complete our rotation count before continuing. Only one kid out of 10 actually came to the same conclusion.
If your wheels are rubbing to point of actually stopping the robot, that might be another avenue to explore. - Message by: trooprobo1094 12/11/2007 01:36:40 GMT
When we turn on the NXT yesterday, it randomly clicks the icons such as bluetooth, NXT file, sound file... EVERY Icon in the brain, BY ITSELF. I've call the technical support and reset it, redownload the firmware which is v1.05 and still the same random clicks. We have a tournament this Saturday. Please help! - Message by:0222520A 12/11/2007 10:21:10 GMT
Sounds like a broken or stuck arrow button. Is it possible that some moisture is trapped beneath a button and is shorting the connection? - Message by: trooprobo1094 12/12/2007 07:17:21 GMT
Thanks. I think it was stuck. After my husband hit it several times with his palm (like the TV remote), it is back normal. Hopefully it won't get stuck again in our competition. Thanks for the info about moisture. I will get the kids to be carefully about that. - Message by:0222520A 12/12/2007 21:39:03 GMT
Whoo hooo! I finally got an answer right this year!
We have our state competition this saturday and for last two days our NXT is acting up. Randomly for some programs it says running but nothing happens. It has happened with two programs so far. These programs were working fine.
In one of the program we added reset block and it started working, however this did not work in other program.
Has anyone seed this kind of behavior.
Thanks.
- Message by: Team4287 12/06/2007 23:43:17 GMT
Just last night I saw a similar behavior occur with my teams NXT robot. The robot would "pause" for 3-4 seconds every once an awhile during one of the missions.
In other words, if a given mission was executed 10 times in a row, 2 of out the 10 times it would pause in the middle of the mission. Note: The code consisted of a series of moves, with not loops, switch statements, waits, pauses, sensor inputs, etc.
Also, once during the qualifier, it simply turned off in the middle of the mission. And yes, it was turned on just before the start and it had a full battery.
So yes, I have seen this occur, but unfortunately don't have a solution. One thing you might wish to do is copy the program into a new program. I don't know if this would work but we have had a good success rate when we do this.
I know how frustrating this might be, so take your time and make lots of back ups.
Stephen
CO FLL Coach
My rotation sensors seem to be inconsistant with its turns. One time it will work perfectly, the next time it will not work at all. I read somewhere to add a split second "stop" before each turn. Will this work with a "wait" also?
- Message by: brian001 12/09/2007 15:12:14 GMT
Having the robot pause briefly after each Move block might help - but the surest way is to try it and see. Another solution people have used is to run the motors at something below full power, or change the way the robot turns (from a two-wheeled to a "pivot around one wheel" style). There are lots of solutions, but you generally have to try them to see which one works. Dean Hystad has written on a lot of this in his "Building Robots" document, and it's just as true about the NXT as it was about the RCX.
I've got to say that I think the blame here might be a little bit misplaced. As Dean & others have said, the rotation sensors themselves are quite accurate & repeatable, truly to +/- 1 degree or thereabouts. But that doesn't translate into having +/-1 degree of control over how far your robot turns, for instance: that will depend on additional factors like hte size of the tires, how far apart the wheels are, if you are turning with one wheel or both, slop in the LEGO geartrain, slop in the NXT motor itself. In short, the real world has effects the software has no way to correct at all. The NXT (and the motor encoders) just provide you with a much more powerful feedback tool to improve performance... and like any tool, you need to work with it a while to figure out the strengths & weaknesses.
--
Brian Davis - Message by: tanrobotics 12/09/2007 15:46:15 GMT
Another thing you can try is to videotape the robot as it is turning, making sure you can watch the wheels. I think you may find that watching the video tape will show you whether one of the wheels are slipping or not. The NXT is indeed doing what you tell it (program it) to do.
Paul Tan.
Our team would like to create myblocks for each program and to sequence between myblocks on a right button press or rerun the current myblock with a left button press. We want to develop a sequence that waits for either a left or right arrow key press and then continues on to a switch block. Is this possible? We tried a parallel sequence that waited for the right and left arrow keys, but couldn't figure out how to rejoin the sequence. Any help would be appreciated.
- Message by:0222520A 01/07/2008 20:22:34 GMT
Don't use wait. Use the sensor block and poll instead. Loop looking at the buttons until one is pressed, then exit the loop. - Message by: EndlessEnergy1991 01/08/2008 19:33:01 GMT
I did this with a "loop" and a "number variable". First create a new variable called (Button) using the tool in the "Edit" menu. The "variable" block looks like a suitcase. Initialize (button) with 0 then loop until the value of (Button) is on zero. Inside the loop put a "switch" block that checks the left button. If it is bumped write a 1 to (button), otherwise check the right button. If it is bumped write a 2 to (button), otherwise do nothing and loop forever. Outside the loop, pass (button) from your my block for your main program to "switch" with. - Message by: energizerbunnies994 01/08/2008 19:37:10 GMT
Thanks for the info. We did as dystad suggested with polling for either right or left arrow button presses and it worked great.
We used to use sensor watchers in RIS and were wondering if there is similar sensor watcher or interrupt handing capabilities in NXT-G?
Is anyone still using this forum? :-)
Thanks
- Message by: lightsavers2634 03/11/2008 04:00:23 GMT
You can put a "wait for" block below your main program string. While holding down the shift key, connect the hole directly below the NXT symbol (at the beginning of your program) to your "wait for" block.
Hope this helps!
-David (the kid)
Hi all,
It's a little late to be asking this, but the problem just came up. We are on NXT V 1.0. The team is reworking some missions, and all of a sudden, we're getting a message saying the NXT is out of memory, so we can't load all our programs. The big change is that we've added some looping functions, using a light sensor. Any suggestions? We never received our copy of 1.1, and I hadn't pursued it earlier in the year bacause we hadn't been having any problems, and because I had read some complaints about moving up to 1.1. Thanks for any help!
- Message by:0222520A 03/23/2008 18:03:42 GMT
Don't know what the complaints could be about 1.1. My experience is it is better than 1.0 in every way. Faster, less buggy and smaller programs.
As for your memory problem I'll assume that you've done the obvious stuff of removing all the sound files and making sure there aren't any unused programs or files on the brick. Just to make sure I would check the memory, delete everything and retry.
Minor memory trick #1:
For some reason MyBlocks are big memory savers. The first time you use a block it requires a large chunk of memory. Subsequent uses of the same block require less memory. But subsequent uses of a MyBlock use the least memory of all and might improve your programming score due to improved modularity (if done well).
Major memory trick #1:
As mentioned above, a block uses a lot of memory the first time it is used in a program, and not much for subsequent uses. Imagine how much space you would save if you included all the missions into one program. My team had 8 missions and a calibration routine on their robot (light sensors, touch sensor, lots of blocks) and still didn't use half the memory. They even had a nice menu based mission selector that allowed them to jump from one mission to the next with a single button press. Saved lots of time at the table. - Message by: PowerStackers 03/24/2008 14:35:59 GMT
Did your team put all 8 missions in one program, then use a menu to select the mission? Did the menu display on the NXT? If so, that will be nice.
PowerStackers - Message by:0222520A 03/25/2008 20:04:37 GMT
Yep. The girls wrote MyBlocks for each of the missions. Then they wrote a mission selector program that listed the missions on the screen and moved a cursor up and down when the arrow buttons were pressed. Pressing the orange button runs the program.
They said writing the mission manager program was 100 times more fun than the boring mission programs. - Message by: lightsavers2634 03/24/2008 20:19:20 GMT
To view an intresting discussion about this subject last year, go to http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee99d5a
Hope this helps!
-David (the kid)
Folder: NXT) Robolab Questions 12/03/2007 20:30:45 GMT
Discussion: Light sensor By: Robocops3626 10/18/2007 20:16:33 GMT
Our team is new to the NxT. We are trying to figure out how to make the NxT follow a black line using the light sensor. We know how to make it find the black line, but then don't know how to make it follow it.
- Message by:01D3B26C 08/21/2007 20:38:35 GMT
Here's a link to a helpful page;
http://home.earthlink.net/~xaos69/NXT/Line_Follower/Line_Follower.html
David - Message by:0222520A 08/24/2007 08:36:11 GMT
That is one of the more complicated line following algorithms I have seen. Looks like it should be less susceptible to overshooting and doing a 180 degree turn around. I'll have to give it a try and see how well it works compared to other solutions.
Speaking of others solutions, there are several. Just do a web search for MINDSTORMS line following. You may also want to take a look at this;
www.fll-freak.com/misc/01-jgray_report.pdf
It talks about several line following algorithms. While your there take a look around Skye's page. Always informative.
Dean Hystad - Message by: robojags6121 10/18/2007 19:53:01 GMT
Our team is kind of new to First Lego League, and we were wondering how the light sensors actually work. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 20:16:33 GMT
Answers:
1) Very well.
2) With electricity.
3) Under software control.
We would love to answer your question, but we need to know what you want. Do you want to understand the electronics inside the light sensor and how it talks to the NXT, or how to make use of them from Robolab (the area where you posted).
If you want to learn to program it, swing over to the ORTOP.org and HighTechKids.org websites for some great tutorial information.
-Skye
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
I have decided to make the switch to NXT from RCX this year and hope to continue using ROBOLAB. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to figure out how to synch the motors using ROBOLAB 2.9 and have gotten the patch to download version 2.9.3. The patch will allow ROBOLAB to do the following: Able to synch motors together * this means that one motor will do whatever the other motor is doing * this is helpful for going in a straight line. Able to define desired motor position or motor speed * both of these use high speed, built in controllers to try and keep the motor speed constant and to put the motor at a desired position (to within 2 degrees). Any help will be great. I am still searching the web but haven't found any documentation for these 2 items. Thanks, Alan
- Message by: NCFIRST 09/09/2007 23:01:09 GMT
Hi Alan,
There is an icon under the NXT block - it looks like a motor with an arrow on top and an arrow on bottom. If you click on this and use the pull-down context help menu, it gives you a coding example of how to use this icon. It does work and well!
Marie
Coach Ionic Pioneers, Hyper-Static Penguins and Terramatix
Does one exist? I notice that the two PDF manuals for RoboLab that come with the 2.9.2 version of the software do not even mention the NXT and the additional blocks for NXT. There is some mention in the Fast Start Guide, but it is hardly complete.
Any good documentation out there? Or is the only way to learn by trial and error?
Thanks.
- Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/20/2007 17:12:04 GMT
There are a couple resources you might find helpful:
- The RoboLab Video Trainer
This is a CD curriculum created by the Robotics Academy at Carnegie Mellon that teaches RoboLab. This is an old version for the RCX though, so you'll have the same issues that you have with the PDF manuals.
- Engineering with LEGO Bricks and RoboLab - Third Edition
This book dubs itself "The unofficial guide to ROBOLAB 2.9". It has been updated in the Third Edition to cover the NXT. It is not really a reference though. The book is a collection of progressively more difficult challenges that lead the reader through all levels of RoboLab - from Pilot to Inventor to Investigator.
- Larry Langellier - Message by: ghostriders2680 10/08/2007 02:50:41 GMT
I'll expand this query and ask for printed documentation to Robolab 2.9.3? This version includes several new very useful commands. The only documentation I've found for the new commands is the on-line help system. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/08/2007 13:03:56 GMT
The online help and the two PDFs are all the documentation from the vendor that I know about. LEGO has placed RoboLab on its end of life list. No more work will be done on RoboLab. No new versions. I suspect there was no money to update the documents as well.
Best source of info is to drill down into each new icon and see what they do, or try some of the after market products as already mentioned.
-Skye - Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 11/28/2007 19:21:55 GMT
And here I was thinking I should move my kids up to RoboLab on the NXT! (We've only ever had NXTs, no RCXs.) What then is the alternative to NXT-G programming? I'm so confused. - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/28/2007 19:31:53 GMT
At this point in time there is only one alternative to NXT-G and that is Robolab. Robolab has been put on "End-of-life" notice by LEGO. That is they do not plan any further development or even bug fixes. It may sound like a dead product that you should avoid, but you should consider it. It has little documentation, its dead, but its a wonderful language for teaching programming, its compact, and fast.
-Skye - Message by: DarkMatter563 11/30/2007 14:13:25 GMT
I'll second that opinion. Robolab is the way to go if you'd like to teach your team more about programming. Also, RobotC can be used side-by-side with Robolab in teaching programming. RobotC and Robolab use the same firmware and there is a one-to-one correspondence between most of the Robolab blocks and RobotC library functions - an excellent way to prepare your team for C-language programming for FRC. - Message by: ghostriders2680 12/03/2007 20:10:55 GMT
While it appears to be true the Robolab is being sunset there still is some activity - they just release 2.9.4 which has some handy features. If we just had bluetooth download support life would be easier ;-).
I did pick up a copy of Eric Wang's book "Engineering with LEGO bricks and Robolab" third edition. - it's a pretty good reference book for Robolab 2.9.3. It has info on the new icons and several advanced functions. Also has some cool bot designs.
Imaging away / flick
Robolab 2.9.3 has floating point calculation support. It also has the controls ( "%f") for floating point printing in the "NXT formatted text" block. How do you pass this block a floating point variable ? It appears to only accept integers or values from containers.
- Message by: SapUniversalRobots1196 10/08/2007 14:28:57 GMT
there is a pink rectangular control, in which you can calculate with named variables. Here you can define floats, the docu says. (I did not try ...)
regards
HoM - Message by: formerlynanoknights1560 11/13/2007 06:03:53 GMT
The pink rectangle is in a weird place--like internet commands, I think...
My boys would like to use whole programs as subroutines. They have a couple of places in their table routine where they want to execute identical code for two different challenges. And they would like to go through a series of program names (as numbers displayed on the NXT diaplay)to ease keeping the sequence straight and easy to remember. Is there a way to do this with RoboLab on the NXT?
There is a block that allows calling a program by name, but it can, according to the docs, only be used when the NXT is directly connected to the computer running RoboLab.
Can a subroutine in one program be called by another program also loaded on the same NET. That is, in programming terms, is the subroutine name space global over all programs loaded on the NXT?
If not, is there another way to do what my boys want to do that is not obvious in the documentation?
Thanks.
Steve
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/16/2007 12:54:41 GMT
Not sure about the NXT, but the subroutine space was private on the RCX. Each program slot needed to have a local copy of subroutines even if common accross all program slots. I SUSPECT the same is true for the NXT.
Perhaps the students might consider a slightly different approach. Perhaps just have ONE program. What is to prevent you from mimicking the RCX interface with your own program? Especialy since the NXT buttons can be used as sensors.
Here is a long discussion of that idea from last year's season implemented in NXT-G.
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee99d5a
-Skye - Message by: formerlynanoknights1560 11/13/2007 06:02:28 GMT
If I was doing this I'd rename a copy of the program.
Skye, I'm confused by your response. We read the UFAQ and saw that subroutines and containers were global on the rcx and have been having a blast exploiting that. What do you mean that subroutine space is "private" on the rcx? You say that each program slot needs a local copy of subroutines, but we've been running program 4 using the subroutines defined only in slot 1. If this isn't what you mean, can you explain?
Thanks,
Tammy
formerlynanoknights1560 - Message by:0222520A 11/13/2007 07:08:33 GMT
You are correct Tammy. Subroutines are a great way to save memory on the RCX. There may have been some changes in V2.9+ that caused this feature to be lost. I didn't test for that.
Anyone have more info on this? - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/13/2007 13:58:43 GMT
The last time I read the LASM (LEGO assembler) document it described the architecture of the firmware. This mentioned that each program slot had four subroutines available to it. It also mentioned that some of the containers were global and some private to the slot.
Now perhaps this has changed with the latest firmware or perhaps the RIS and Robolab firmwares to not share the same architecture. But at one point in time (years ago) I tested this and it seemed to follow in step with the documentation. Perhaps its time for another round of testing.
-Skye - Message by: ghostriders2680 12/03/2007 20:30:45 GMT
I don't recall this working last year on the RCX with Robolab 2.9 - you had to define the subroutines in each slot that used it. We had some difficult memory issues last year with the RCX that we had to work around.
Since the NXT doesn't have slots this isn't an issue, subroutine are local to the program.
Imaging away / flick - Message by: DarkMatter563 11/21/2007 16:39:21 GMT
I'll echo Skye's suggestion to use one executive program to run all of the missions.
My team does this with Robolab by turning each program that would usually be stand-alone into a SubVI. Each 'mission' SubVI does a single robot excursion from base, and is usually a set of several challenge missions. This year they have seven 'mission' SubVIs. The 'mission' SubVIs are called by a master program that uses the grey arrow NXT buttons to select which mission to run, and the orange NXT button to actually run the mission. Mission names rather than numbers are displayed on the screen to clearly identify which mission will run when the orange button is pressed. After a mission is run, the screen automatically increments to the next mission on the team's list to make it easy to advance to the next mission. If something should go wrong with a mission, the operator can always use the grey arrow buttons to select a mission other than the one displayed on the screen. This saves fumbling around trying to find and execute seperate mission programs during a match, which is a problem with NXT. This means that only one program is actually loaded on the robot - but that programs contains SubVI-implementations of all of the missions.
The fact that the missions are all in one program resulted in a little program for my team at a regional earlier this month. This year, all seven team members play tag-team and each one gets to run their own mission. That makes for a lot of fun, but also more opporunity for things to go bad. One particularly excitable team member was trying to run his mission, fumbling around with attachments and the robot and suddenly got a very frustrated look on his face. After the match, he ran over to me at the edge of the competition floor and said, 'Mr. Doerr, somebody deleted the program from the robot!' I replied that I wonder why all of the other missions before his had run OK.
Later he was talking to my wife and said 'Mrs. Doerr, somebody deleted the program from the robot, and I think it might have been me!'
:)
Moral for the next tournament: Load more than one copy of 'the program'.
Dave
Folder: RCX) Robolab Questions 02/06/2008 00:21:18 GMT
Discussion: Rotation Sensors By: eaglebots261 10/20/2007 01:54:49 GMT
We have an RCX and are using Robolab. We are having problems getting the rotation sensor to work. We tried and tried. Any suggestions? maybe we hooked it up wrong?
- Message by:0222520A 09/04/2007 02:16:58 GMT
More information would be helpful. What exactly are you having problems with? Is the sensor not working (the counts never change), or are you having a problem using the rotation sensor data? - Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/09/2007 17:45:20 GMT
Are you resetting the rotation sensor right before you want the "counting" to begin? - Message by: Ener'vent1082 10/20/2007 01:54:49 GMT
Do you reset the sensor before you read it ?
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
- Message by: Robostorm 09/18/2007 17:41:16 GMT
How can you get RoboLab 2.9.3 .
Robostorm - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/18/2007 18:27:29 GMT
You can either buy an upgrade from a previous version or buy a copy outright. In either case you take a visit to the LEGO Educational (Pitsco) website.
-Skye - Message by: Robostorm 09/19/2007 00:46:41 GMT
Thank you. I will tell my teacher that.
Robostorm - Message by: Gastineau5774 10/13/2007 21:22:07 GMT
We are working with Robolab 2.5 and are having some trouble. The first two programs saved on one of the robots seem to be locked and we can't unlock them. Any advice? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/13/2007 21:42:58 GMT
Read the UFAQ at www.fll-freak.com! The answer to your question (and many more) are there.
-Skye
Hi. The teams I'm affiliated with are using NXT sets with NXT-G. I don't do the day-to-day coaching and I'll find out this afternoon how far along the teams have progressed.
Since the team members are mostly rookies, I decided to do a demo of one of the missions using an old RCX and Robolab 2.9 to give the teams a concrete example of one solution using a different technology, and to illustrate that RCX teams will be just as competitive on the field as our teams might be with their newer fancier equipment.
Anyway, I decided to use sensor events since my robot is monitoring 2 concurrent sensors - rotation and bump for this mission. I have it using bumps to do both wall following and stopping at the oil platform after a sufficient number of rotations have occurred. I used a container for wheel revolution count and when my container gets high enough, bump handling changes to instead of doing a course correction for the wall following, it does a full stop.
That's all fine when it works and it works more often than it doesn't work, however, sometimes my events don't fire the way I expect them to. Sometimes it's like the rotation event fires to a point, then stops firing - like my event handling gets hosed up somehow and no longer works. Please see the attached pdf for the code. I'm resetting the rotation sensor each time the event fires. Is there a reset block for the event status perhaps?
I have another RCX question too. Can I write routines into program slots 1 and 2 or am I limited to using slots 3 through 5?
Thanks in advance for any answers.
- Message by: Carboneras2487 09/26/2007 00:26:56 GMT
program for event handling question - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/26/2007 03:14:17 GMT
Your question about using slots 1 and 2 is answered in the UFAQ at www.fll-freak.com
Wow, I looked at your program and was surprised at your use of events. I would not have attacked the problem in that way. I would have programed it in a more linear method.
My experimentation with events was not exhaustive. I ran into problems and found it nearly impossible to teach to youth. The idea of an interrupt (event) that was tied into the main processing thread was very weird.
If I get time, I may try to play with this example. In the mean time, you might want to brute force this with a linear approach.
-Skye
Hi.
How do you get the arm to rotate, lift, and push all at the same time?
Does it have something to do with the programing.
Thank You
Control-At-Delete
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/24/2007 20:31:14 GMT
I assume you want to have your arm move at the same time the robot is driving?
This can be a bit tricky based on what you want.
Lets assume the simple case that you want the robot to move 300 rotation sensor counts forward as you move the arm up for 3/4 second. There are at least three cases you have to worry about.
1) The robot takes much longer than 3/4 second to go 300 ticks.
2) The robot takes less than 3/4 second to go 300 ticks.
3) Its a toss up which will happen first.
POSSIBLE solutions:
Case 1) Reset rotation sensor, turn on drive motors, turn on arm motor, wait 3/4 second, stop arm motor, wait for 300 ticks, stop drive motors.
Case 2) Reset rotation sensor, turn on drive motors, turn on arm motor, wait for 300 ticks, stop drive motors, wait for balance of 3/4 secons, stop arm motors.
Case 3) Start doing research on multiple threads of execution in one program.
-Skye - Message by: awesome5188aces 10/30/2007 19:29:20 GMT
I am having problems find how to make the robot just turn 90 degrees. when I try to make it do that it just goes to far or not far enough. I NEED HELP!!! - Message by: Team4287 10/30/2007 19:48:56 GMT
What my team found out is that if you lower your power level and use degrees. You get better accuracy (assuming of course you are using a NXT brick).
Stephen
CO FLL Coach
MeteorStorm - Message by: awesome5188aces 10/31/2007 00:14:43 GMT
Hey, it's me again! Well we're having problems again... We can't get the robot to get behind the mine cart to hit the lever. Do you have any suggestions to help with this?
XD - Message by: crazycreators252 10/31/2007 02:11:55 GMT
There are countless ways to do this. Your team needs to put on the thinking caps, have a brainstorming session and decide what to do. Its fairly easy if you think about it and toss some ideas around. I'm sure you will come up with something that works.
Dave
We have an A and C motor along with an 1 and 3 rotation sensor. I am trying to program using containers. I would like to have the motors stop when the rotations of the 1 sensor plus 3 sensor equal a certain value. My thought has been to put the value of the 1 sensor in one container and the value(reading) of the 3 sensor in another container and them perform the calculation in yet another container. Then tell the motors to turn off when the value of the calculation is reached.
The reason I am doing this is to try and understand how to use or include containers in a program. Should I be able to do what I am trying to do? If so can somebody please show an example of a program that could accomplish this. If what I am trying to do is just a total misuse of these functions can someone please tell me. I am slowly losing my mind. Thanks
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/28/2007 02:55:51 GMT
Yes you can do what you want. I have no way to right now give you a sample, but you have the basics. Use the special "grap the light sensor icon" and wire it to a colored container. Do the same for the other light sensor. You you can use the container math icons to add them together and finaly a wait on container value.
-Skye
I am creating a program that is telling two motors to stop when the sum of two rotation sensors equals a certain number. How accurately should I expect this type of calculation to be. In other words if I ask it to stop when the rotations equal 100 how close to 100 should the rotations be before it stops. At this point they stop when the value is 85. All containers have been zeroed out. Am I correct to assume that the accuracy should be better than that? Any hints would be helpful. I basically would like to know if I should expect higher accuracy so I do not spend days trying to accomplish something that is not possible.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/30/2007 03:53:53 GMT
Are you truly using Robolab on an RCX?
A 15 unit error over 100 unit distance is not great. That same 15 unit error over a 20,000 unit travel would be fantastic.
I am surprised that you are getting a stop number smaller than your target. If you are zeroing the rotation sensor, turning on the motor, than using a wait till rotation sensor greater than 100, how is it stopping at 85? I would have expected something like 100 to 105.
All the WaitFor icons are implemented as a poll loop with a 2/100 second delay. That means that you will only check the RS every 2/100 of a second. You can get better accuracy if you write your own poll loop and leave out the delay.
Perhaps you are using the motor sync icons? (Is that even possible on an RCX?) Perhaps the control loop is aborting when one of your motors goes over 100 but the other is still less?
Something is very fishy.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 10/30/2007 04:03:36 GMT
You have an error in your program. It has nothing to do with accuracy of a sensor. You are checking if a number is equal to 100. It just happens that the number is arrived at by adding the values of two rotation sensors.
My first concern is that the basic premise probably isn't going to work. There may be a very small time window when the sum of the two rotation sensor counts equals a number. If you don't check during that window you condition will not be met. I would expect your program to occasionally run forever. I normally do greater than or less than comparisons. They don't have this problem.
Another concern is just what does the sum of two rotation sensors mean? On a typical FLL robot with a sensor on the left and right wheels it means very little. I could achieve a sum by spinning spinning the left wheel alone, the right wheel alone, both wheels together at the same speed or both wheels together at different speeds. The sum remains the same, but the robot motions are completely different.
My final concern is one that has to do with accuracy. When you ask a motor to stop id doesn't necessarily stop right then. It may take a while and overshoot the target. Maybe this is why you expect to see 100 but see 85 instead. Is the sum decreasing when you slam on the brakes? You may need to slow down, or begin braking earlier. Another possibility is to do a small error correction move afterwards.
I'm curious what you are trying to achieve, but I don't want you to tell me. Curiosity can be so much fun. - Message by: icNRG 2340 10/31/2007 00:37:21 GMT
Is it perhaps due to the fact that you geared up the sensor to high? Our experience is that above say 500rpm readings are not reliable.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
I'm not a professional computer programmer, but I'm teaching kids to program. I'm teaching them that writing comments is important so that they can go back later and make changes or explain their code. I'm having them write what the robot is doing rather than write out long hand what the symbols mean. For example, instead of "drive forward" I'm teaching them to write "Drive straight between base and satellite", with the behaviour and the source/target. Am I on the right track?
Tammy
formernanoknights1560--We're BACK
- Message by:0222520A 11/13/2007 06:59:16 GMT
Your program should have multiple levels of comments. At the highest level you want to at least describe what the program/My Block/Sub Vi does. Example:
This program delivers the wave generator and installs the solar panel for the FLL 2007 Power Puzzle Challenge.
Line up the robot backed against the wall with somewhere near the 3M logo. Starting position isn't too important because the program uses the street markings to find where to make turns.
You then want to add comments to describe what different sections of the program are doing. These are similar to what you mentioned, but I would bunch several blocks together instead of writing a comment for each block. Example:
Drive over to the satellite at max power. Stop when the front bumper is pressed.
Or
Drive over to the coal cart. Starting with the robot against the wall drive straight out of base and then turn to the right XX degrees. Drive forward XX mm and lower the arm.
I write different types of comments in different fonts or using different colors. I also use different background colors for different types of modules. Missions may be blue, motion blocks green, math blocks yellow, etc... You can make ROBOLAB programs look quite striking if you take your time. That might be worth a point or two.
We are using the RCX, and are using subroutines and containers, etc. I loaded 2.54 because 2.9 was taking *forever* to put firmware on the rcx. Is there any good reason to use 2.93 that I'm not aware of?
Tammy
formerlynanoknights1560
- Message by: HighlandHuskies1552 12/10/2007 22:02:23 GMT
For us, the key factor are the advance motor controls. I believe they don't have that in 2.54. The performance of the firmware is also noticeably better. There are many others. I highly recommend it.
BTW: You shouldn't have to flash the firmware that often. So it shouldn't be a deciding factor.
We are using 2.9 robotlab on a rcx brick (2.0). When the kids push the green go button at the start of the mission there is a noticible 2-3 second pause. And of course every second counts. The programs generally start with a sub.vi. Is the sub.vi causing the problems? This is the first year for us with 2.9. We have changed out RCXs to no effect. Thanks!
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/04/2007 20:06:17 GMT
Something is fishy here. When you hit the green button, the program should start right away. I will guess that you have a time delay in the first part of your program. My team often adds a small delay (1 second) to allow them to get their fingers out of the way before the robot lurches off.
Try putting a small beep right after the green light and before anything else. Does the beep happen right away?
-Skye - Message by: LabRats887 12/04/2007 20:17:23 GMT
Program basically goes:
green light
Subvi w/ # of rotations passed to subvi as a constant
The subvi consists of a zeroing of the rotation senser, A&C forward, Rotation reading
control passed back to the program.
Hadn't thought of having them add the beep. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/04/2007 20:33:54 GMT
Try a new program with just a green light, beep, red light. If you get a delay here you got problems!
If you don't, gradualy change the junk program to look like your problem child. At some point you should get back to the same bad behaviour. At that point you should have a much better understanding of what is going wrong.
-Skye - Message by: LabRats887 12/05/2007 03:16:56 GMT
OK. Went home w/ the stopwatch. There is a 1 second delay on push of green button and start for regular programs. HOWEVER; they have a couple of programs fit into one slot using a light sensor and the color of the brick in front of it to determine which fork to run. When that program is activated by pushing the green button it is a 2.5 second delay. Both programs tested start with a subvi for forward. So I guess it is the reading of the light sensor that is slowing it down, but that seems like a lot. Of course once you start trying to save time off the runs ANYTHING seems like a lot. Thank you for your time & help. Sometimes we get so caught up in the minutia it is hard to see. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/05/2007 03:36:08 GMT
Sampling the light sensor should not take 1.5 second (2.5-1.0). What series of icons are you using to do this task?
-Skye - Message by: 12/05/2007 13:09:46 GMT
Deleted - Message by: LabRats887 12/05/2007 12:35:59 GMT
Green light, waitforbrighter greater than 40 or less than or equal to 39.
If greater than 40 do this move.vi for 23 rotation
If less than or equal to 39 do this move.vi for 32 rotations
(I may have the equal to on the wrong end of the if, but you get the idea)
I am going to borrow another brick from school & run the same tests, but I only have 1.0 RCX bricks at school.
The boys solution, being good engineers, was to change the order of programs so there is only 1 program w/ the light sensor fork in it. In my opinion this also helps their runs because they are not longer swapping out bricks (which they drop). They liked the coolness of the light sensor program switch though.
We did try it with just the sub.vi for the start, and just the motor A&C icons, and there was no difference in the start time. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/05/2007 13:53:58 GMT
b they are not longer swapping out bricks
If this means they were swapping out RCX brinck in the middle of a round, then I am glad they figured out a different solution as that approach is not legal! The sum of all the parts you bring to the table (not just active on the table) must meet the alloawable materials rule.
-Skye - Message by: LabRats887 12/05/2007 15:23:36 GMT
Not RCXs, colored bricks. Put the fork at the front of the program - if a black brick, do this mission, if a white brick do this mission. Ocean's Odyssey they managed the same thing, but had three bricks - white, gray, & black. They mount the light sensor on top of the RCX & then snap a brick right in front of it. It's worked pretty well. Another team explained it to them at a mini tournament 2 years ago. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/05/2007 16:28:54 GMT
Ok, that makes much more sense and now I will be able to sleep tonight!
-Skye
Something is fishy about Robolab 2.9's handling of subroutines.
For one, I thought there can be 4 routines (per program slots?) However, if I add a third routine, that 3rd routine won't respond at all.
For two, when I add a program using subroutines into a program slot (say #2), all of the programs on the other 4 slots starts to behave really strange. For example, I have a no brainer program on slot #1 that simply turn on A & C, run for 5 seconds, and stop. With a subroutine based program on slot 2, the robot "hops" (meaning starts, stop, starts, stop, so forth) rather then run contineously. If I remove the program from slot 2, everything works normal.
There must be a sensible explanation about this.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 20:46:43 GMT
i There must be a sensible explanation about this.
We can only hope!
1) Are you using containers other than the colored ones? Some of the numbered containers have double duty with system code. They are loop counters and other critical stuff.
2) Are you trying to call a subroutine from a subroutine? RCX only allows subroutines one deep.
3) Are you using colored jump/lands inside a subroutine?
4) Just how many chickens did you sacrifice to the LEGO gods?
PS: If you are still stuck, you can zip up your files and email them to me (skye@fll-freak.com) and I will TRY to take a look at them for you.
-Skye - Message by: HighlandHuskies1552 12/10/2007 21:46:19 GMT
Answer:
1) Yes and yes I am aware of the reserved containers. I am only using containers less than 10.
2) No, I am not calling subroutine within a subroutoine
3) NO, I am not using any jump/lands inside a subroutine
4) Only 2.
Yes, I will love to have somebody take a look at my (ugly) code and solve this mystery for me. I'll send you the code.
Thanks,
We are using RoboLab 2.9.4 with RCX. We want more than one mission in one program slot and have been looking at using the RCX buttons to select the appropriate mission.
In 2.9.4, you can set a system parameter for each of the Run and Off buttons (see Project->Detective). This is a number (0-9) that specifies a task to run when the button is pressed.
Has anyone successfully used the buttons to start a task? If so, I'd be eternally grateful if you could send an example. There are a number of issues:
- Tasks cannot be allocated a number; I infer that the main task is 1 and that each fork creates a task with a successively higher number, as follows
Task 1 Task 1
[Green]---------[Fork]------------
|
|
| Task 2 Task 2
|---------------[Fork]------------
|
|
| Task 3
|---------------
- In order to create a task, it has to run and stop. Then you can use a [Start Task] block to re-start it.
So far we have written a program that sets up the buttons and we seem to be able to detect Run but not Off. I won't post the code yet as we will test some simpler code tomorrow.
If anyone can add any useful comments (Skye?), I'd be grateful. Even if you can point to somewhere that shows it working or to a suitable place to ask the question, that would help.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 01/09/2008 14:06:15 GMT
I will not be much help except to tell you that I am pretty sure that the OFF button can't used. If it was, a bug in your program could make it impossible to stop a it.
Task numbers are indeed confusing. How they are created almost seems random. I find the only way to know what they are for sure is to 'download' your program to a text file and wade through the LASM listing where the numbers will be specified.
Sounds like an interesting project. Please keep us updated.
-Skye - Message by: TechHEds410 01/09/2008 15:27:29 GMT
Thanks for this. Yes, I was VERY dubious about using the OFF button. But that is the other one specified in the system parameters listing. I guess that if your program does not sit in a perpetual loop (e.g. it waits for input for 10 seconds and then stops if neither button is pressed) then you would avoid the situation where you have to remove the batteries to stop it!
I also don't understand why you can programmatically access the Run and Off buttons but not the View and Program buttons... Ultimate RoboLab (www.ultimaterobolab.com) claims to enable access to the Program button, but I guess we can't use Ultimate RoboLab in FLL as it is specific firmware.
I'm going to check out the LASM listing - we haven't looked at that yet. - Message by: TechHEds410 01/24/2008 02:19:05 GMT
We've got it working! So we can now have 10 programs in 5 slots (each slot runs one task when you hit the green button and a different task when you hit the red button).
If you redefine the green Run and red Off buttons, you stop a program by hitting the grey Program button.
The worst thing about task numbers is that there are two sets in use. The 'internal' numbers start at 0 and are the ones used in, for example, the system parameters. The 'external' numbers start at 1 and are the ones exposed to us in, for example, the Stop Task block. Debugging to sort this out was VERY frustrating!
I have attached our test program. Here is what it does in pseudo-code:
Task 0 (from green traffic light):
Set up the Run button to point to (internal) task 1
Set up the Off button to point to (internal) task 2
Loop forever
Task 1 (bottom task from first fork
known externally as task 2):
Stop (external) task 3 // task 1 starts at the first
// fork, so both tasks 1 & 2
// run simultaneously unless
// you stop task 2
Run motor A forward
Wait for 1 second
Stop motor A
Task 2 (bottom task from second fork
known externally as task 3):
Run motor A backward
Wait for 1 second
Stop motor A - Message by: TechHEds410 01/24/2008 02:21:02 GMT
What we haven't found out is how to download to a text file. Can you give us a pointer to that, please? - Message by: TechHEds410 01/24/2008 14:29:10 GMT
Ah, we've found that too, now. In case anyone else wants to know, you have to start the program with a LASM green traffic-light icon, rather than the regular one. - Message by:0222520A 02/06/2008 00:21:18 GMT
Just for grins I ported my FLL teams mission manager written in NXT-G to ROBOLAB on the RXC. Instead of using the buttons I scroll through the missions using the left wheel rotation sensor and run the program using the front bumper touch sensor. It works pretty well. All missions from inside one program.
Folder: RCX) Robotic Invention System (RIS) Questions 01/08/2008 10:08:32 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 01/08/2008 10:08:32 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
- Message by: comets4870 01/07/2008 23:34:05 GMT
The RCX is not picking up the downloading signal. Does anyone know how to repair this? - Message by: icNRG 2340 01/08/2008 09:36:26 GMT
Hi just a short check,
is the firmware loaded?
check the attached word file, there you can see how you can check this.
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl - Message by: icNRG 2340 01/08/2008 10:08:32 GMT
As an addition to my previous post the following:
Do you get an error message on your pc/laptop, if so what does it state?
When downloading, do you see a led blinking IN the tower?
What kind of tower do you use? The Serial or the USB tower?
The reason for this question is that the Serial tower needs a battery IN the tower. If you use the Serial tower check if the battery is inserted/full. (There is NO battery in the USB tower).
Coach D (Doede)
Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl
I have been working alone on this year's missions with the RCX. (Fortunately our team will be using the NXT in the competition, but I'm doing it as a personal challenge.)
I ran across a bug in the RIS software. For some reason I couldn't add a wait block to my program after selecting it. Then I discovered after that, I couldn't add any program blocks to my program. However you can take blocks off of the stack, so I don't think it froze. I then closed the program (without saving) and opened it up again. I added ten or fifteen random blocks without disruption, but when I added a wait block, the same thing happened. I experienced the same problem two years ago and had to re-download the software and re-program everything. Any Ideas on what's wrong? I really don't want to re-program those 10 runs again.
Thanks
-David (the kid)
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/26/2007 17:01:51 GMT
RIS had an issue with a limit on the number of icons in a stack. Perhaps you are at this point? But it sounds like with a very small program you can't add just one wait. That does not sound like anything I have ever heard about before.
PS: Is this a time wait? Is the time very small? If so, there is a bug with small times.
-Skye - Message by: lightsavers2634 09/26/2007 21:35:46 GMT
Auctually this was quite a large program. (75 blocks or so) I had saved it earlier before the bug came up, so I just closed the program without saving my progress and opened it again. I used a yes/no switch block so I could put two programs in one slot. I could add a wait block to the stack on the left, but not the stack on the right. This was a little odd, because the stack on the right was almost half the size as it's partner. The stack on the right would not allow either the "wait for", or the "wait until" blocks, and after I tried one of those, it wouldn't let me do anything else. I did use a "wait for .2 seconds" after every motion,(15 or so) but even when I took a few out the bug persisted. I tested a fresh program using 50+ wait blocks of both kinds (and with a bunch of wait for .2 seconds) with no consequense. Then I copied the stack. When I tried to add it, a message popped up saying I exceeded the maximum number of blocks. (Not what happened earlier.) This makes me think I have discovered a new bug. I have since deleted the bad program, and it looks like it didn't spread to the other programs. (like the last time I encountered the bug) so I'll just redo those two missions. Thanks for your help!
-David (the kid)
I have a "Move Forward" My Block consisting of the commands: reset rotation 1, set direction A forward C forward, on AC, wait until rotation 1 equals variable rota 1, off AC (coast). About half the time the robot does not move forward at this command. I've managed to avoid this problem by adding "Wait For" blocks in some places, but I don't understand why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Liam, team Sharpbrick
- Message by: CGMSC745 10/24/2007 19:25:16 GMT
One thing to try (though I'm not sure this is the problem) is to not wait for rotation = variable but instead wait for rotation > (or >=) variable. Or, if you really want to be precise, wait for rotation > (variable - 1).
It is possible that you are just not quering the rotation counter at the instance it is actually equal to the value you are looking for. Using > or < or >= or <= will avoid this problem in the sense that the condition will eventually become true, but you may overshoot by some amount. - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 18:33:26 GMT
Did this issue get resolved?
-Skye - Message by: sharpbrick4811 11/21/2007 05:48:55 GMT
Yes, this worked. Sorry we never came back to say "Thank you for the help." It was much appreciated. - Message by: BananaBots5215 11/28/2007 08:37:14 GMT
We came across a similar (or the same) bug in the RCX. Our loop was a Repeat Until Rotation greater than x. Some of the time it worked correctly and some of the time the program made just a single pass through and exited without checking the condition. Very frustrating to our 6th graders.
We found two solutions:
1. if we changed the loop to a Repeat While rotation less than x, it seems to work 100%.
2. (my son's idea): we follow the problematic loop with a yes/no. If the rotation has not reached the expected value, then simply repeat the loop. It seems to always work the second time through.
Hope this helps.
The BananaBots.
Our team is pretty young and we decided to use the Robotics Inventions 2.0 rather than the RoboLab. The laptop we were using developed a glitch and we tried to reload the software, but the CD was damaged beyond repair. Is there any way to obtain a replacement CD-ROM, or download a version online? I went to the Lego website, but it didn't look as if we could obtain just the CD, only an entire RCX system.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/30/2007 03:55:23 GMT
I am not aware of any place to download RIS. I would try to find somebody local that might lend you a disk. If not, email me at skye@fll-freak.com
-Skye
Folder: FLL Regional Information 08/23/2007 09:09:31 GMT
Folder: Alabama 07/23/2007 11:44:43 GMT
Folder: Alaska 11/01/2007 01:32:03 GMT
Discussion: Motors? By: Energizer Bunnies 10/30/2007 03:56:31 GMT
I'm the coach of an Anchorage team using the RCX and we're searching for more motors, so that all the kids have a chance to test out their programs. If you have an extra motor, please let me know!
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/30/2007 03:56:31 GMT
You can still buy them from either PITSCO, or from any number of vendors at Bricklink.com
-Skye
Hey, Alaskan teams!
We just met with Anchorage School District's facilities manager:
Jon Paxton
paxton_jon@asdk12.org
He has LOTS of great "no cost" ideas on how to save energy. He would LOVE to see Anchorage legos teams all adopt a school in Anchorage to save us all money!
He is pleased to share with any team. Please feel free to contact him.
Roxy Kohler, Coach
Highland Tech High
Folder: Arizona 10/09/2007 00:40:33 GMT
Discussion: Finding Competitions By: Mayer3359 10/09/2007 00:40:33 GMT
Hello from Mayer Unified School District, AZ. We have two teams ready to go this fall and spring for competition. My name is Mr. Harpst. I am a coach from PA who is now teaching here in AZ. Please reply to this message and let us know about possible competitions we could enter this season down here in AZ or possibly SW USA. Thanks.
- Message by: TucsonTechnics2007 09/10/2007 20:39:42 GMT
Hello Mr. Harpst, our team "Tucson Technics" is also interested in any competitions for JFLL. If you know of any please post.
Or, if you'd like to arrange one perhaps, we could come to your area.
I am new to the JFLL Coaching scene. We are still awaiting our kits. So we are kind of flying blind until we dig into things.
We would be interested in your findings/research/et al.
Regards,
Tucson Technics - Message by: Mayer3361 10/09/2007 00:39:31 GMT
Yes, if you haven't found the two I know of yet they can be found at:
http://azlego.googlepages.com
I am still looking for at least one more for my teams to compete in. I am also willing to do an informal one with one or two other teams for fun.
Michael Harps
layer Unified School District - Message by: Mayer3361 10/09/2007 00:40:33 GMT
Yes, if you haven't found the two I know of yet they can be found at:
http://azlego.googlepages.com
I am still looking for at least one more for my teams to compete in. I am also willing to do an informal one with one or two other teams for fun.
Michael Harpst
Mayer Unified School District
Folder: Arkansas 07/23/2007 11:45:18 GMT
Folder: California 07/23/2007 11:45:32 GMT
Folder: Colorado 08/28/2007 01:13:51 GMT
Discussion: Welcome to the Power Puzzle Season By: Tri State Tournament 08/28/2007 01:13:51 GMT
My name is Chrys Griffing and I am the FLL Partner for the TAME/FLL Tri State Robotics Tournament in Amarillo. I want to welcome you to the forum and wish you the best for the coming season. If you have questions that I may be able to assist you with you may post them here or you can email directly. tamerobotics@suddenlink.net
Best of Luck,
Chrys
Folder: Connecticut 07/23/2007 11:46:09 GMT
Folder: Delaware 07/23/2007 11:46:28 GMT
Folder: Florida 02/14/2008 13:52:08 GMT
Discussion: team intros By: 0236923D 02/14/2008 13:52:08 GMT
Team # 108 - HCECF's BRICKschoolers
This will be my second year coaching a FLL team and third year coaching JFLL teams for our Central Florida based homeschool group. We currently have 8 kids on the FLL team ranging from 7-12. Only one of these kids has ever participated on a FLL team before. Half of the team has participated in JFLL.
http://www.hcecf.net/brickschoolerslegorobotics.htm
- Message by: darthpanthers2465 08/21/2007 21:16:20 GMT
Team # 2465 - Dart Panthers 2.10
Lomax Magnet Elementary School
Tamp, FL
We are a 2nd year team with 10 kids on the team. Last year we had great success and qualified for the State Tournament. This year we have worked to recruit new teams in the Tamp area that has resulted in bringing the FL experience to many more kids. This year we will host our own qualifying tournament to further enhance our experience. We are excited about the Power Puzzle.
http://lomax.mysdhc.org/teacher/2521roberts/ - Message by: Firedroids 59 08/25/2007 23:58:56 GMT
Team # 59 R2-D2 Firedroids
Lakeland, FL
Neighborhood Team - 7 members six of them novices
My fifth year coaching. We ran the NANO WARS competition
last year. I am available for advising new coaches and new teams.
r2d2firedroids@yahoo.com - Message by: GallopingGirls4205 08/31/2007 16:53:15 GMT
We are all brand new to this competition. We are a Junior (4-6th Grade) Troop and are looking forward to all tha challenges and experiences this will bring to our happly little family. Cant wait to meet some of you - Message by: The Techno Team 46 09/11/2007 18:47:01 GMT
Team #46
The Techno Team
North Miami Beach, FL
2nd year for me, too. Neighborhood team. Got to State our Rookie year, to my great astonishment. This year: lost 2, gained 2, resulting in 6 veterans & 2 rookies. Amazed that there aren't more teams south of Lake Okeechobee. If you are down here somewhere, maybe we can arrange for a practice meet before a tournament.
lego@pagebuild.com - Message by: MechaniCar1550 09/12/2007 17:00:27 GMT
First year coach with 2 FLL teams (Why not?!!).
Home school teams - 7 members on this team, 8 on the other, all novices (2 members attended a one-week day camp at FIRST last year).
Southern part of Miami-Dade County (South of Lake Okeechobee! I'm also surprised not to find more teams down here. We'd be very happy to meet to practice before a tournament.) - Message by: TBirds 10/05/2007 21:05:38 GMT
Pinellas Park Middle School TBirds - Team 1497
We are new to the FLL this year and are very excited about the competition. We have about 12 students participating on the challenges.
Please advise if you are aware of any additional qualifying events in the Tampa Bay area. Only two events are posted for the State. Please contact Scott Pinheiro at spinheiro@pinellas-park.com or (727) 541-0755
Thank you and goo luck with your challenges - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/06/2007 15:10:30 GMT
I can't help you on the qualifying issue in Florida.
Are you aware that FLL has a maximum of ten students on ONE team? Bring twelve to a competition will not work. Bring ten to a competition when you had more than ten to work on the challenge is also an issue.
-Skye - Message by: TropicalStorms2010 02/12/2008 19:35:27 GMT
I am a new coach too. We are Tropical Storms from Merritt Island. I am told my team is not a Rookie team, because I have one member that participated last year. The rest of my team is made up of newbies like me. I'm sure I've missed lots of things I should be doing, but... I consider this MY Rookie year. We'll learn from our mistakes and enjoy the competition. - Message by: FLL-Freak 02/14/2008 13:52:08 GMT
Normaly the status of a team is the status of the coach not the members. But in all things FLL this varies from location to location. You should double check with your tournament director.
-Skye
If there are any homeschooled teams out there looking for additional team members (either FLL or JFLL), there are several folks on the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LEGO-HomeschoolFL/ list from various parts of the state looking to join a team.
- Message by: TBirds 10/02/2007 21:35:34 GMT
The TBirds are in Pinellas Park Team 1497
Trying to figure out how many teams are in the Central Florida Area - looking into the possibility of hosting a JFLL tournament and need to guage maximum expected turnout based on where teams are based at. If you're interested in a JFLL tournament in the central Florida area, please holler back at hcecf.lego@gmail.com.
Folder: Georgia 07/23/2007 11:46:49 GMT
Folder: Hawaii 07/23/2007 11:47:04 GMT
Folder: Homeschool 07/30/2007 22:05:45 GMT
Discussion: Homeschool team in FLORIDA By: 0236923D 07/30/2007 22:05:45 GMT
This will be my second year coaching a FLL team and third year coaching JFLL teams for our Central Florida based homeschool group. We currently have 8 kids on the FLL team ranging from 7-12 and are anxiously awaiting the opening of JFLL registration.
http://www.hcecf.net/brickschoolerslegorobotics.htm
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LEGO-HomeschoolFL/ - networking group for Florida Home Educators to learn about the various LEGO programs available and how to use them in a homeschooling environment.
Folder: Idaho 07/23/2007 11:47:15 GMT
Folder: Illinois 07/23/2007 11:47:37 GMT
Folder: Indiana 07/23/2007 11:47:49 GMT
Folder: Iowa 01/02/2008 02:38:01 GMT
Discussion: Help! I need to find a tournament! By: lordsofmayhem3324 01/02/2008 02:38:01 GMT
Oh no! The Iowa state tournament is closed! Does anyone know if they are going to add capacity this season?
What are other teams in our situation doing?
Anyone know how big the Nebraska tournament usually is?
- Message by: lightsavers2634 11/04/2007 23:28:59 GMT
Did you get on the wait list for team regrestation in Iowa? Since Iowa allows only 70 teams at the state tournament, I'm hoping next year they will introduce a couple qualifying tournaments to the system.
Good luck in finding a tournament!
-David (the kid) - Message by: Lego_Invaders 01/02/2008 02:38:01 GMT
Next year Iowa is switching to the Qualifying rounds!! at my middle school our 2 teams went to a local round (not a qualifying round at Marshalltown community collage.
- David
nevadafirstteams@gmail.com
Folder: Kansas 08/28/2007 01:13:04 GMT
Discussion: Welcome to the Power Puzzle Season By: Tri State Tournament 08/28/2007 01:13:04 GMT
My name is Chrys Griffing and I am the FLL Partner for the TAME/FLL Tri State Robotics Tournament in Amarillo. I want to welcome you to the forum and wish you the best for the coming season. If you have questions that I may be able to assist you with you may post them here or you can email directly. tamerobotics@suddenlink.net
Best of Luck,
Chrys
Folder: Kentucky 07/23/2007 11:48:23 GMT
Folder: Louisiana 07/23/2007 11:48:41 GMT
Folder: Maine 07/23/2007 11:48:54 GMT
Folder: Maryland 12/18/2007 22:12:49 GMT
Folder: Massachusetts 10/04/2007 14:57:17 GMT
Discussion: N. Quincy High Eastern Championship By: Norwell Power Chasers 3645 10/04/2007 14:57:17 GMT
Hi. We would like know when the North Quincy High School, Eastern Championship Competition will be held. The kids schedules fill up fast and we want to foresee any conflicts.
Thank you - Knowing will help a lot!
The Norwell Power Chasers
- Message by: Robotic Einsteins1 10/04/2007 14:57:17 GMT
Hi there,
I have a similar question about the Blackstone Valley practice tournament. I don't see any information about it on the site?
Thanks,
Michele Pearl of the Robotic Einsteins
Folder: Michigan 10/09/2007 15:58:23 GMT
Discussion: Welcome By: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/02/2007 12:56:53 GMT
Welcome to all teams from Michigan. I'm looking forward to seeing all the wonderfully creative robots that you come up with to meet this year's challenge.
If you haven't seen it yet, go to the Michigan FLL website - www.michiganfll.org - where you will find information about teams and tournaments in Michigan.
- Gary
- Message by: crazycreators252 09/26/2007 05:01:16 GMT
Good luck to all the teams this year. Have fun and try to make more noise than us at the tournaments.
From the Crazy Creators - Team 252 - Belleville Mi.
Ben, Josh, Martin, Adam, Aaron, Chris, Travis and John. - Message by: mini miners 10/02/2007 00:36:42 GMT
Now that our team has come up with a name to go with our team number, how do we go about updating our team profile? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/02/2007 12:56:36 GMT
Click on the "Preferences" button on this page and have fun entering new data.
-Skye
Michigan teams, don't forget to register for your regional! Go to michiganfll.org - registration is now open.
- Gary
Folder: Minnesota 07/23/2007 11:49:47 GMT
Folder: Mississippi 07/23/2007 11:50:07 GMT
Folder: Missouri 07/23/2007 11:50:17 GMT
Folder: Montana 09/17/2007 21:54:07 GMT
Discussion: howdy By: thunderbirds 09/17/2007 21:54:07 GMT
Alex Dimitrov here, coaching the Thunderbirds! (SMS robotics, Bozeman MT). How are you all fine folks doing there?
All the best
Folder: Nebraska 07/23/2007 11:51:35 GMT
Folder: Nevada 09/01/2007 20:36:02 GMT
Discussion: is there any team in the west side of Las Vegas? By: The Crew 09/01/2007 20:36:02 GMT
waz up we're the Crew jr. team 202
- Message by: The Crew 08/29/2007 00:25:58 GMT
sup crew jr. - Message by: The Crew 08/29/2007 00:27:32 GMT
Hello! We are also located in the west side of Las Vegas. Our team # is 200. - Message by: The Crew 08/29/2007 00:29:13 GMT
we are the older Crew cower in our shadow! - Message by: FloridaModirator 08/29/2007 16:28:12 GMT
Hi Crew, the entire FLL community is reading your chats. You might want to use a different program to do your chatting in :)
Have fun!
Laura - Message by: The Crew 09/01/2007 20:36:02 GMT
Hi crew this place isn't a place to chat.
-perry
Folder: New Hampshire 07/23/2007 11:52:03 GMT
Folder: New Jersey 10/01/2007 23:07:01 GMT
Discussion: New to FFL By: MarltonMustangs2142 10/01/2007 19:41:17 GMT
We just started school 9/6 . This is the first year our school is participating in FL. Our team and our teacher(are they referred to as team leaders?)are compeletey new to this. I am pretty positive that most of us are clueless about what we are doing. I think it's too surreal to us that we are going to be building these robots to play this game. Since school recently started in NJ, kids that have been started school in August are already a month ahead of us. We are still being taught basic stuff currently, like the electrical system was taught, and today we learned about the mechanical system today and we learned about how tork is more important than speed. I'm worried about how this is all supposed to happen so fast; our teacher said something about eight weeks...? I am just looking to see if we are the only ones out there completely new to this. Please leave suggestions and tips. I would love to hear about how other teams are doing! thank you for reading. =]
Best Wishes,
-A Marlton Mustang Team Member
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/12/2007 03:26:46 GMT
You are not the only new teams. I just helped teach two classes this week in New Hampshire for a total of 20 new coaches.
You are not behind in this year's specific challenge as it was only released a week ago. Of course your way behind compared to teams that have been doing this for many years.
My tips is to read as much as you can on the web. Hunt down the hightechkids.org, ortop.org, and fll-freak.com websites.
-Skye - Message by: MarltonMustangs2142 09/12/2007 22:46:53 GMT
I too am a marlton mustang team member. I want to know how do find the info. the from is very confusing. if u could help it would b great. - Message by: MarltonMustangs2142 09/13/2007 16:51:18 GMT
just asking, what are your ideas for the 2007 challenge? how are you planning to build the robot? we just started a few days ago, so we're just getting into the challenge, learning about circuits and systems, so we can trade ideas and collaborate. I'm also a different Marlton Mustang Team member - Message by: MarltonMustangs2142 09/13/2007 17:26:20 GMT
Well, after I read a lot of the forums and messages and went throught the Q and A you get a better idea of what it is you are supposed to build. Keeping in mind that there is only two and a half minutes to do the missions. I think that for now, you have to just learn how to work around the rules and figure out how you can accomplish this. Honestly, I've pretty much got no idea so far.
Best Wishes,
-A Marlton Mustang Team Member. - Message by:017FFADF 09/15/2007 01:50:15 GMT
Not in New Jersey, but I just saw this message and thought I'd pipe in. Don't expect that you'll complete all the missions - this is near impossible. In fact, as a rookie team, if you're able to complete one of the missions, then that is a great accomplishment! Don't stress out about it - just learn what you can in the time that you have. - Message by: 10/01/2007 19:41:17 GMT
Deleted
How do we actually register for the qualifying events?
The http://www.nycnjfirst.org site is to be used and registration opened at noon; however, I cannot find a link to register. After I click on the link 'Click here to register', the page indicates that registration opens at 12:00 PM on October 1st. No other links - just a description of when one can register, the fee payment, etc...
There are two e-mail links at the bottom of the page for comments or questions but, not to register.
I have e-mailed both individuals -- not sure when they will get back to me.
Has anyone in NJ registered for the qualifying events yet?
- Message by: allstars2377 10/01/2007 19:57:10 GMT
Thank you I am not the only one. I'm and sure the site will open soon or they will take preliminary emails. Mr. Ernie DiCicco is usually good with responding quickly. I will wait until tonight, make some phone calls and report any finding on this forum.
Thanks
Rich Morgan
FLL 2377 and 4398, FVC 2021, FRC 1882 - Message by: MindstormTroopers1928 10/01/2007 23:07:01 GMT
The registration sites appears to now be working!! Good luck to everyone.
Folder: New Mexico 08/18/2007 06:18:40 GMT
Discussion: Welcome to the 2007 Season By: Tri State Tournament 08/18/2007 06:18:40 GMT
My name is Chrys Griffing and I am the FLL Partner for the TAME/FLL Tri State Robotics Tournament in Amarillo. (Oklahoma - West Texas - New Mexico) I want to welcome you to the forum and wish you the best for the coming season. If you have questions that I may be able to assist you with you may post them here or you can email directly. tamerobotics@suddenlink.net
Best of Luck,
Chrys
Folder: New York 08/23/2007 22:21:03 GMT
Discussion: Research Field Trips in/near Rochester By: SuperXSquad3734 08/23/2007 22:21:03 GMT
Are there any teams beginning to plan field trips for their teams? If so, I would like to collaborate.
Folder: North Carolina 08/27/2007 22:11:12 GMT
Discussion: NC FLL State Tournament By: NCFIRST 08/27/2007 22:11:12 GMT
The NC FLL State Tournament will take place on Saturday, December 1 at the Greensboro Coliseum Special Events Center.
Folder: North Dakota 07/23/2007 11:53:12 GMT
Folder: Ohio 07/23/2007 11:53:28 GMT
Folder: Oklahoma 10/12/2007 16:48:59 GMT
Discussion: Welcome to the 2007 Season By: Tri State Tournament 08/18/2007 06:19:35 GMT
My name is Chrys Griffing and I am the FLL Partner for the TAME/FLL Tri State Robotics Tournament in Amarillo. (Oklahoma - West Texas - Oklahoma) I want to welcome you to the forum and wish you the best for the coming season. If you have questions that I may be able to assist you with you may post them here or you can email directly. tamerobotics@suddenlink.net
Best of Luck,
Chrys
Hello all,
My name is Jack Lyons. I am starting a team at my daughters school in Owasso, OK. This is the teams first year, but I have coached before when I lived in Houston.
I am also the Pilot Partner for FLL in Oklahoma. I hope to have a tourney in Ok next year.
Jack
Folder: Oregon 07/23/2007 11:53:51 GMT
Folder: Pennsylvania 08/28/2007 04:29:02 GMT
Discussion: Any news on local competition in erie area? By: tigerbots272 08/28/2007 04:29:02 GMT
Folder: Rhode Island 07/23/2007 11:55:01 GMT
Folder: South Carolina 08/31/2007 15:33:29 GMT
Discussion: New Rookie Team By: OGEL MAET 08/31/2007 15:33:29 GMT
Hello South Carolina.
We are a Home school team with 10 kids. we love to play with LEGOs and can't wait until we can start. We are a new team looking for advancement. we look forward to showing off our Team T-shirts. We hope to meet everyone possible during the tournaments. Good luck to us all.
Folder: South Dakota 07/23/2007 11:55:24 GMT
Folder: Tennessee 07/23/2007 11:55:43 GMT
Folder: Texas 10/23/2007 02:44:47 GMT
Discussion: Welcome to the 2007 Season By: Tri State Tournament 10/23/2007 02:44:47 GMT
My name is Chrys Griffing and I am the FLL Partner for the TAME/FLL Tri State Robotics Tournament in Amarillo. I want to welcome you to the forum and wish you the best for the coming season. If you have questions that I may be able to assist you with you may post them here or you can email directly. tamerobotics@suddenlink.net
Best of Luck,
Chrys
- Message by: XBots1675 08/26/2007 20:19:38 GMT
Thank you for the welcome Chrys! I am in central TX and wonder if anyone knows how many and where tournaments may be set up this year? If I'm not mistaken, last year there were 4: Amarillo, Dallas, Houston, Austin. - Message by: PISDFLL1357 08/27/2007 19:32:17 GMT
I don't know for sure, but I heard the Dallas tournament was canceled for this year.
What I can say for sure is that info for the Austin tournament is available here:
http://www.centraltexasfll.org/ - Message by: Tri State Tournament 08/28/2007 01:11:20 GMT
At present there is no tournament in Dallas for 2007. There will be 3 Texas Tournaments. Houston and Amarillo (Tri State) will be on Dec 1 and Austin will be in January.
You are welcome to attend any of the 3 or you may attend more. Just remember that according to FLL "If you choose to register for more than one Championship tournament, you must apply for the second by contacting the tournament organizer. Refer to the award eligibility policy as your team will only be eligible for any awards at the first Championship tournament you attend."
Tri State and Austin are about the same size and Houston is the largest in the state.
Best of Luck,
Chrys
Tri State Robotics Tournament - Message by: XBots1675 08/28/2007 17:45:18 GMT
word on the street is that the Austin website is not updated and because they had to change venue, the tournament may be in Nov or Dec. It feels very up in the air! - Message by: Tri State Tournament 08/29/2007 00:38:58 GMT
The last time I spoke with Cheryl she said that it was Jan. but I will double check with her to be sure. - Message by: XBots1675 08/31/2007 20:49:56 GMT
saw this email that hopefully clears it up (though the website still says Jan):
Dear FLL coaches,
We are pleased to announce that we have set a date for the 2007
Central Texas FLL Championship Tournament.
* What: 2007 Central Texas FLL Championship Tournament
* When: Sunday, December 9
* Where: Round Rock High School
(http://www.roundrockisd.org/home/index.asp?page=312)
I hope that we will see many of you at our tournament this year. In
the meantime, don't forget to check our website regularly for great
news and information that you can use during the season:
http://www.centraltexasfll.org/
Best of luck as you gear up for the 2007 season!
Cheryl Farmer
Senior Program Coordinator - Message by: legomasters5308 10/23/2007 01:24:03 GMT
Tom Black, Team 5308
My team has been accepted at The Round Rock tournament. If I had specific information on the location and the times for activities, I have misplaced it. If anyone could provide this information, I would greatly apperciate it.
TB - Message by: Tri State Tournament 10/23/2007 02:44:47 GMT
Here is what is available currently on the Central Texas website. http://ras.ece.utexas.edu/new/fll/tournament.php
Hope this helps.
Chrys
2007 Central Texas FLL Championship Tournament
The Central Texas FLL Championship Tournament will take place at Round Rock High School just north of Austin on Sunday, December 9. Watch this page for more information as the tournament date approaches.
Folder: Utah 07/23/2007 11:56:04 GMT
Folder: Vermont 07/23/2007 11:56:18 GMT
Folder: Virginia 07/23/2007 11:56:32 GMT
Folder: Washington 07/23/2007 11:56:46 GMT
Folder: Washington D.C. 07/23/2007 11:57:17 GMT
Folder: West Virigina 07/23/2007 11:58:35 GMT
Folder: Wisconsin 10/23/2007 04:53:33 GMT
Discussion: Team Challenge Review Session By: pantherpower3069 08/22/2007 03:03:24 GMT
The St. Eugene FL team (Fox Point, WI) will be hosting a FL Challenge review on Set 29th (Sat). It will be for teams and coaches to review the challenges with other FL teams.
Contact for information: Mark Rhyner mrhyner3@wi.rr.com
The Oak Creek Regional Tournament will take place at Oak Creek West Middle School, 8401 S. 13th St. from 8 am - 4:30 am on November 3. Maximum team limit is 24. Contact Sue Wanninger @ s.wanninger@oakcreek.k12.wi.us for more information.
Folder: Wyoming 07/23/2007 11:58:13 GMT
Folder: FLL Research Discussions 01/24/2008 21:30:32 GMT
Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:57:00 GMT
Fellow FLLer,
Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of
condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely
already been answered.
The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.
You can find the UFAQ at:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq
Skye Sweeney
First year team here. Ok, I'm going to start this discussion because the one page project outline looks so simple, but yet totally took me by surprise, being much more narrow and specific than expected.
My big question: the page says "Then choose a building in your community, like a school or municipal building."
That sounds HUGE. Someone I have been emailing told me that we could use an older home of one of our members, and audit that. That sounds much more doable for our group, albeit a little more mundane. However, much of our summer research and field trips would feed into a project like that very well.
So...does it have to be "like a school or municipal building" or will a home work?
Cynthia
Co-leader to an as yet unnamed FLL team!
- Message by: homebotics1229 09/09/2007 19:07:36 GMT
Yes, that was our team's question as well . . .does it have to be a school or municipal building or can it be ANY building ( not just a home)?
Theresa
Homebotics
Newport News, VA - Message by:0222520A 09/10/2007 16:01:58 GMT
If the rules don't say "You MUST choose a school or municipal building", then you don't have to choose a school or municipal building. Schools and municipal buildings are given as examples because they are large, complex and easily accessible. It's usually more difficult to get access to commercial buildings. I don't know if I would choose a home, unless it has some interesting technologies like solar, wind, or geothermal. Judges would probably view auditing your own home as taking the easy way out.
FLL rules are pretty clear and literal. Don't read extra restrictions and assumptions into them.
Dean Hystad - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/10/2007 16:06:08 GMT
We should pick Dean Kaman's house! He has a fully operational windmill, a huge underground water tank for heat storage, and a massive stirling engine he is converting as a heat pump. And lets not forget the lighted baseball diamond, helicopter hanger, electronic lab, full machine shop, indoor pool, and even secret rooms!
-Skye - Message by: zap4702 09/10/2007 16:11:46 GMT
The "Sample Energy Audit How-To Guide" in the project resources (which is an FLL document although not part of the official challenge description) states that you "begin by selecting a public building... a school, library, community center, church or other building frequented by the community".
That expands it a little but it's fairly clear it should be a public building, although again it doesn't specifically rule out other buildings. I'd ask for a ruling just to be safe.
Doreen
Team ZAP! - Message by: hoffman1702 09/11/2007 07:03:03 GMT
I contacted our area director (or whatever they call her). She called FLL and was told that an older house would be fine, as long as it's in our community and we share the results with the community. This seems to be a contradiction, but we're going with it.
I've sent a Q & A, but nothing has been posted as of yet.
Cynthia
of the as yet unnamed team! - Message by: Hybrid Force368 10/31/2007 02:37:07 GMT
We thought a community building might be chosen as not to embarrass a private owner ( nursing home or store chain etc..)of things wrong with their building and how it might be corrected or helped. Especially when the research was presented in the community. - Message by: masterminds610 09/11/2007 17:16:06 GMT
Our town uses a historic home for its historical museum. Do you have a historic home used for public space in your community? - Message by: STEPP218 09/11/2007 21:26:18 GMT
I think answer above but one is a little lacking in gracious professionalism. I thought one of the ideas of the FLL was for the children to learn, so I would hope a very professional and complete project, that dealt comprehensively the 3 parts, on a home is as valid as one on a school or other large, complex municpal, particularly for a rookie team of young children, who live in a rural area and who can relate to their own homes easily and learn so much more looking at something this 'simple'.
The scale and complexity of US research projects stunned up, your poor cousins from across the pond, when we came to the FLL World Festival in 2007. The winning project was condensed, we were told, into two huge black binders of paperwork and had a spin off of two patents - absolutely astonishing for children aged between 9 and 14 ! - Message by: hoffman1702 09/11/2007 23:33:38 GMT
And the official answer is:
While we probably should limit the scope to buildings, certainly anything that qualifies as a building would be fine, including the smaller types of places you're thinking of.
Have a great day,
Scott - Message by: HolyFamily914 09/22/2007 00:04:21 GMT
We were thinking of doing each of the whole teams' houses to get an average home in our area. We all homeschool, so in a way, we all use our homes for the community, albeit our community. We are constantly co-oping our classes.
Bren
of another as yet unnamed team... - Message by: Chargers1012 09/24/2007 18:30:07 GMT
Our kids want to do an ice cream palor in our community...does that count as a public building? The second choice was the firehall. I have sent an email to FLL but have had no reponse. Who should I contact?
Thanks
Another Cynthia
Richmond Chargers, WI - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/24/2007 19:56:36 GMT
I am not an official voice, but I would guess that the ice cream parlor is a public building. It may not be owned by the tax payers, but it is open for the public to utilize as a location to buy a product. It is just as much a public space as a mall.
What you may find is a resistance by the owners to allow access. Several years ago, my team tried to use a movie theater as the subject for a No Limits challenge. When the kids explained what they wanted to do and that they were going to share our results with the community, we were shown the door and asked not to return.
Since part of the project is to share the changes you suggest for the building with the general public, how is the ice cream parlor owner going to feel?
-Skye - Message by: LincolnRobotics2864 10/18/2007 19:12:27 GMT
Question on using a home for the research project:
Since the kids need to share the changes suggested with the general public/to the community, who would be the appropriate audience for them to present recommended changes for a private home?
Thoughts?
Thanks!
Samantha
No-Coach Cobalt Blue - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 19:36:48 GMT
A building contractor?
A condo association?
At a block party?
-Skye - Message by: hoffman1702 10/21/2007 02:11:01 GMT
A private home will include features/improvements that will be helpful to anyone in the community looking at energy savings in homes.
There are LOTS of audiences that could be educated! The solutions for your chosen building could apply to many others as well.
Cynthia - Message by: 10/21/2007 10:50:31 GMT
Deleted - Message by: robokings1265 10/18/2007 23:31:11 GMT
I hope this is not a duplicate question, but we had similar doubts on building selection.
Can we select an office building, say a three story office building but it does not have any public offices in that building.
An official answer from FLL will help stop this chain of questions on this topic. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 23:38:00 GMT
You have come to the wrong place for an official reply. We are only just coaches here. For official answers read rule 34.
-Skye - Message by: robokings1265 10/20/2007 22:49:51 GMT
Thanks. Actually it is rule 36...I sent an email.
But just wondering if anyone considered office building or not (as a coach of course!!). - Message by: radicalroborockstars4155 11/04/2007 02:44:44 GMT
From the Q&A section
QA56 Project Building
Q: For the project, what exactly is the guideline on what building we can audit? We have access to [insert your building here], is that okay?
A: Most popular question this year! Since there's no Q&A for the project, we've been answering teams individually. Answer: Really, any building will be acceptable; yes, even a house. - Message by: TeamFoxtrot6501 10/24/2007 18:05:10 GMT
Can you choose something like Disneyland or Legoland for your reaserch building? (I don't want this to be a repeat question, too.) - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/25/2007 15:22:48 GMT
It might be rather hard to do an energy audit of something that big. Do you have a contact there to present your conclusions to?
- Gary
It seems FLL is a making a change in direction relative to the structure of the research project this year. In the past, FLL has stated something like: research an area of interest, design and develop a creative solution, then share your findings with the community. This year, the project must be a building energy audit and specific steps must be taken. A structured project may be easier for new teams and adds uniformity, but it lacks the open ended creative spirit of previous FLL projects. How do other teams see this change?
Thomas Miller
Coach - LegoAces FLL Team #44
- Message by:0222520A 09/10/2007 15:52:00 GMT
I see the scope only being limited by the team's imagination. The project is not as open ended as previous years, but there are no limitations on the proposed solutions. Who says you can't launch a solar collecting satellite and beam the energy to the shopping mall. Or maybe you would rather install a mini-turbine and run it off waste cooking oil from the food court. Micro hydro off waste water? Heat pump buried under the parking lot? Some other technology I've never heard of and that my not exist (yet). Hmmm. I guess I don't see much of a change.
Dean Hystad - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 09/10/2007 15:59:15 GMT
Exactly! The Sky is the limit you just have to get a little more creative. My kids went into the lab this summer and created a way to use solar power to create hydrogen. While it is only a part of the project, it let them add their own creativity to the project. Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: zap4702 09/10/2007 16:02:05 GMT
This is only my third year coaching, so I only have Ocean Odyssey and NanoQuest to compare, and it does feel more restrictive to me. But I think there was a similar project in the year they did handicapped accessibility as a theme, wasn't there? That was before my time, though.
As a coach, honestly, it feels harder than the last couple of years (not easier, as you suggested), because there seem to be so many requirements to fulfil in the energy audit *before* the team can get to the fun stuff of coming up with creative solutions.
I also feel like there is so much information out there on this topic that it will be hard for many kids to sort through all of the many current politically-correct solutions, evaluate them, and *only then* move forward into more innovative solutions.
Yet, structure is not bad; and structure and creativity are not mutually exclusive. I am thinking about Shakespearean sonnets and haiku, for example, which are both highly structured and incredibly creative.
So... I do think that the creative spirit is still present in this challenge, but I feel that it is going to be harder and more time-consuming to get my team beyond the required structure and into the more creative parts of the challenge. I'm still muddling it through in my mind.
Doreen, Coach
Team ZAP! - Message by: bears299 09/10/2007 16:04:55 GMT
My team is from a public elementary school, and we have more than 20 elementaries in my district. If most do their school as the building, it requires a lot of time from the district energy manager to meet with each team after school. If we do some other community building, the parents will have to transport their students since teachers are not allowed to transport students. So the logistics will be much harder this year. I think this will increase the number of teams that skip the project. It was already about 50% skipping the project last year at the state tournament.
Linda - Message by: Chargers1012 09/25/2007 15:19:49 GMT
How do you skip the project and end up at State? I thought everyone had to do the project?
Cynthia - Message by: bears299 09/25/2007 18:01:39 GMT
Texas is so big that there are 3 tournaments. We always attend the one in Houston. About 80 teams attend. As long as you register, your team can compete. Although everyone attempts the field challenge, many choose to not do the research project. Every team has a scheduled time to appear before the project judges, but about half don't show. Of course, they will not get the Champion's trophy, but they could win the Robot Performance trophy.
Linda - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/25/2007 19:02:47 GMT
In New Hampshire, advancement to the state tournament is not done only on the Champion's Award basis. The first place performance, first place project, first place technical teams are also advanced.
-Skye - Message by: bears299 09/25/2007 20:13:24 GMT
The Houston tournament (now known as the Lone Star tournament) IS a state tournament. The only advancement from there is Atlanta for the World Festival. I think that the Champions Trophy winner from each of the three Texas tournaments goes to Atlanta. Teams do not need to compete in a lower level tournament to go to the Houston tournament. In fact, I don't know of any "regional" or such tournaments, just the three state tournaments. - Message by:0175DA2B 09/25/2007 19:42:39 GMT
I'm glad to hear that many other people think the project is BORING. It's a great idea for teams that are part of a classroom, but we're an after-school group meeting only 2 hours a week for a month. Our three goals are to have fun, score above zero, and have fun. The kids are bound to learn something along the way, but they get enough homework at school. We will still try to throw something together for the project, but it will likely be a comedy sketch vs. a serious study. ;-) - Message by: Masterminds 45 09/10/2007 16:59:24 GMT
I agree with the sentiment expressed by Thomas of the LegoAces team in the first post of this thread.
As with Doreen of Team ZAP!, this is our third year, and the projects of last two years were quite open ended. Based on this prior experience, and because the Power Puzzle topic was posted last winter, our team had already picked a topic and began preliminary work on it this summer. When the project was posted on 9/5, we had to grind gears and change our course.
Certainly, this experience may be influencing our team's view of the approach taken this year. We were disappointed that the work we had done needed to be recast. But beyond that, I would say that our team was more enthused by the opportunity to pick our topic in past years, and delve into that topic in our own way.
I agree that a prescribed topic still allows for its own brand of creativity. Also, having a specific problem handed to you is more "real world", in my experience. But, I have to say our kids felt more empowered and energized by selecting their own topic. I'd vote for the open-ended approach in the future.... :-)
John Wilkinson
Coach, Team 45 - Masterminds - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/10/2007 21:00:56 GMT
I think the FIRST is right in changing the project around each year. It minimizes teams from getting a head start over the summer. That puts all the teams (new and old) on a more even field. I almost wish that they did not announce the topic at the end of the season, but I understand why they do.
-Skye - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 09/10/2007 21:49:54 GMT
I know why they announce it at the end of the season. Its for all the poor old coaches who can't learn as fast as our kids and need the extra time to learn it LOL ;) Carla
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by:0222520A 09/11/2007 05:40:40 GMT
Our team spent the entire off-season gathering background information for the research project. My girls learned about wind energy, nuclear power, and alternative fuels. We visited a solar car race team and built electric generators out of LEGO. We talked about the contributions of Watt, Faraday, Maxwell, Edison, Tesla and Einstein. I didn't get around to all the energy related activities I envisioned (solar derby, micro-hydro generator...), but we touched on many. It was a great time, and partially made possible because we knew what the theme was going to be for the next season. It gave just enough excuse to free up some time in our busy schedules and get the team together. Maybe do a little robot-sumo competition, or build widgets that have no particular purpose. I'm finding I like FLL better when we're not getting ready for a tournament.
Dean Hystad - Message by: hoffman1702 09/11/2007 06:57:52 GMT
This is our first year and our regional contact suggested we start our research in the summer. It was a great chance to get the kids together. We used last year's challenges to work on building and programming skills (although a number of the kids had done a camp in the last 2 years to get the basics).
We toured a state of the art reconstructed building by Alberici (in St. Louis)--one of the "greenest" buildings in the country apparently, and had a company called Solar Night do a solar and wind presentation that was really great. We visited an engineering lab at Washington University where they are splitting hydrogen with sunlight and working on cleaning up coal emissions--it was cool. The adults enjoyed it as much as the kids.
Overall, the kids had to learn about different sources of energy and at our first meeting, they each did a 2 minute, videotaped presentation to tell what they learned. One kid talked about plasma, another about tidal power and one talked about our future energy requirements in the context of the average 60 watt bulb.
It was all background, but will feed in nicely to the project. I'm glad that we spent the time. - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 09/11/2007 15:24:55 GMT
We visited an engineering lab at Washington University where they are splitting hydrogen with sunlight
My kids went into the lab this summer and created an experiment with a professor that does the same thing :) The kids are actually going to publish the work with the professor we worked with. Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: Hybrid Force368 10/31/2007 02:46:28 GMT
I agree Skye. - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/10/2007 17:47:49 GMT
This years project is modeled off the No Limits project. FLL had a huge impact on the community that year and many teams were rewarded, not by FLL, but by their schools, community centers and local governments. The No Limits project was
1) Determine if a public place you choose is completely accessible
2 Create a solution to make that place more accessible
3 Finally, as your awareness grows, we want you to share your new knowledge with others.
Same type of restrictions as this years project. But the kids had a great time making the "place" better. Back then we were all afraid that the kids would all yes their schools as the project. Some did. The schools grumbled a bit - ADA is a far more touchy subject than Green.
The project quality was great.
Just for fun you might want to read this thread it starts just after kickoff 2004. See-More 1298 "What is the difference between what we were supposed to do in the research project last year and the research project this year?" 10/5/04 12:39am
the parent folder is also full of tons of ideas that would work for this years challenge, old folks homes, fire stations, library, shelters...
Like my boss says, It's all good! Make it fun.
Laura - Message by: thegreenhands5411 09/11/2007 19:20:55 GMT
Regarding the research project ... does it have to be an actual building? Can it be another type of structure that uses conventional energy and possibly could and should use other sources to operate? Such as a bridge?
Coach Mary :--)
The Green Hands - Message by: RoboWarriors789 10/20/2007 22:41:46 GMT
The increased structure this year definitely seems to have decreased the kids interest in doing the project compared to past years. In past years, it was initially hard to get them interested in putting the LEGOs down and doing research, but once they got into it the interest increased as they were allowed to be creative in a number of different directions.
This year I have two teams, 12 total kids, mixed grades, varied talents and personalities, and both boys and girls, but not a single one of them has shown any desire to work on the project, even as I have led them through the beginning of it to get their feet wet.
I realize that the project is still open-ended to a large degree, but the difference in perception is huge. I think the designers were thinking like adults here, not kids. Anything that takes a full of page of small print just to describe is going to lose the interest of the kids after the 3rd sentance. The way it is presented is like a kid's worst homework nightmare times ten. This is their reward for sacrificing their free time and other activitites to join the robotics team?
Frankly, I am very disappointed, because energy is probably my favorite personal science topic, and I am unable to even sell the concept to the kids this year.
Dave Parker
RoboWarriors and RoboBadgers - Message by: edgewoodorange5471 11/08/2007 00:47:34 GMT
This is my first year participating in the FLL competition, and the requirements do seem very tough. My group has met with our buildings owner/cook. We thought the Project would allow us to be more creative in what ways we could design our building.
Stephanie
Edgewood Orange
Team Memeber - Message by: teamgreen2400 01/15/2008 23:24:35 GMT
Our team has decided to make a video of our research project.Is this a good idea? What do you think?
Nicole
Team Green
Team Member - Message by: legoaces44 01/16/2008 05:10:13 GMT
Great idea to video your project and share it with others. That's a good way to do outreach and communicate about the Power Puzzle. I think it's unfortunate that there are not more public opportunities to present and share research projects at FLL events. We hosted an end-of-season local "FLL Festival" where teams had an opportunity to share their research with other teams, parents and the community. It was a fun way for teams to end the season with a chance to show off in all the aspects of FLL without formal judging to add any stress. It was also a nice forum to recruit new team members and introduce families to FLL. More sharing with video or whatever method you can find helps spread the message of FLL.
Enjoy,
Thomas Miller
coach - Lego Aces - Message by: teamgreen2400 01/17/2008 23:17:24 GMT
Thanks legoaces44 for the positive feedback. It is a great way to share with the community,but we probobly can't do an Fll Festival as we are the only local team.
Nicole,Grady
Team Members
Team Green - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 01/24/2008 21:30:32 GMT
You might be surprised at the distances teams are willing to travel for an FLL event. When we held our first "just for fun" local tournament, the closest teams traveled 1.5 hours, and the farthest team traveled over 5 hours! Admittedly, there's usually more energy (ha) for this sort of thing pre-Championship than post, but it might be a great way for your team to share FLL with your community.
Yolande
I was just wondering what everyones thoughts are on using a already green building and showing how great it is? Or is this more about showing how we would fix things? Any thoughts? Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team
- Message by: FloridaModirator 09/10/2007 19:27:50 GMT
What would the team do for step 2?
2. Talk to experts and propose solutions to reduce consumption or move toward alternative energy use.
Laura - Message by: Team4287 09/10/2007 19:58:04 GMT
The purpose of the Project is to:
1) Recognize where energy is being use
2) Research ways to further reduce energy consumption or to use alternative energies.
3) Present the findings to the community and maybe even the building manager.
While the improvements to a green buildings may not be as dramatic to non-green buildings, never the less they could still be improved (Note: It also maybe harder to find ways of improving its energy consumption, but it can be done).
I would recommend changing the focus of the project to not look at something needing to be fix. I would instead recommend looking at the project as a way to evaluate a building with the intent of making it more efficient in its use traditional and alternative energies.
Coach - Message by: brainyaks4148 11/15/2007 22:52:51 GMT
You probably can't because you wouldn't have to do the second part of the project. - Message by: delta1132 12/06/2007 01:30:56 GMT
Our building is relatively green already. We just found ways to make it better. As long as the team can think of something to improve on the building, I say it's OK!
This is my team's last year. We are mentoring a younger team at our school (they got all the RCX stuff, we now have NXT). The coach is, understandably a bit overwhelmed. The younger team is a mix of 5th & 4th graders, with more 4th graders. One of the boys on my team arranged for us to evaluate a really neat building. I was considering asking the coach of the other team to combine with us when we go on the field trip for the energy evaluation. We'd all have our own worksheets, though I imagine ours are going to be more extensive than what the younger team would be doing. That way if the younger guys need help there would be someone there to help the measure, figure out how to draw a floor plan, etc. We'd both then go back to our own team meetings and come up with our own recomendations, and make our own presentations. We wouldn't know what they were going to present before hand. I do not intend for the older kids to do the work, just provide more one on one. Do you think there would be a problem with this at judging? I'm seeing it more as a teaching moment for the older kids, not as a collaboration. I'm also going to put in a call to our tournament director and see what she says. Are there any thoughts on this?
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/11/2007 19:29:03 GMT
It sounds like it is very much in line with the way FIRST operates. Those who know help those who do not. As long as the projects are separate, you will both benefit. Some of the findings in Part 1 would be the same, but most likely the solutions/suggestions in Part 2 would be very different. Part 3 could be a forum where both teams present their findings. - Message by: pyro2491 10/12/2007 01:15:47 GMT
i am a member of one of the two teams, we are new this year to first lego league. We have two teams and have the same building we are researching because of us all working toghther on the same information we were wondering if we could prepair one giant presantation for both teams. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 01:34:36 GMT
One presentation for both teams will not work at competition. Each team (3 to 10) must/will be judged individualy. Having the two teams work on the project together will/could be seen as a major advantage. Twice as many people to get twice the work done.
Nothing says they can't use the same building and even share information behind the scenes, but the project and presentation itself should be different.
-Skye - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/12/2007 14:03:13 GMT
I concur with Skye - it wouldn't work at competition. What would happen if Team 1 was scheduled to present at the same time Team 2 was scheduled to do a run on the table?
Work together, share information, but each team will have to come up with their own conclusions and presentation.
- Gary
The Project Resources page has a link to an "Energy Concept Guide", but the link:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/sitemod/upload/Root/images/2007Challenge/eLAB_worksheets_intro_to_Energy.pdf
actually goes to an eLAB worksheet. This worksheet references the "Energy Concept Guide", and I'd love to see it. Does anybody know where this guide actually is?
Thanks!
Kevin Lund
- Message by: hoffman1702 09/13/2007 04:57:56 GMT
See this link on LEGO education. The guide is available for $28, I think.http://www.legoeducation.com/store/detail.aspx?CategoryID=156&by=9&ID=986&c=1&t=0&l=0
Cynthia - Message by: raiderlads3915 09/29/2007 03:07:50 GMT
We have to pay a lot now for registration, field mat and tournament registration. I know that we don't have to pay for anymore "required" necessities, but it would be rather beneficial if we could have gotten this guide with our field mat supplies!
Bobbie
Coach 3915 - Message by: sysop 10/09/2007 15:54:25 GMT
The correct Energy Concept Guide is now available on the web site.
From Project Description:
Consider all areas of the building and community this change might impact and how realistic your solution is.
The kids worked all summer and they know a lot of the ways to conserve and reduce energy use that people are currently using around the world. Plus they created a way to efficiently produce energy.
So my question is when they present their research should more of the focus be on reduction/conservation of energy by current solutions or on their work in the lab to produce energy efficiently for the building? Any thoughts would be great. Thanks, Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team
Regarding the research project ... does it have to be an actual building? Can it be another type of structure that uses conventional energy and possibly could and should use other sources to operate? Such as a bridge?
Coach Mary :--)
The Green Hands
- Message by: hoffman1702 09/13/2007 21:47:30 GMT
Mary,
This was discussed under Building selection and the answer I got from Scott was:
While we probably should limit the scope to buildings, certainly anything that qualifies as a building would be fine, including the smaller types of places you're thinking of.
Have a great day,
Scott - Message by: ENUY4338 10/26/2007 17:10:38 GMT
What are some good sites to learn about alternate fuel sources?
Quincy
MANDI;-) - Message by: Coleclippers235 10/26/2007 22:22:45 GMT
Our team found some great games for different age levels to learn more about some different types of fuel at www.gm.com/explore/education - just scroll down to the bottom of the page. The game format keeps their interest longer than simply researching a topic.
The Cole Clippers - Message by: robotronicdragons2769 11/08/2007 00:00:09 GMT
I want to know more web sites on wind turbines. - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/08/2007 00:05:00 GMT
Thats the spirit! Let us know if you find any good ones!
-Skye
Regarding the research project ... does it have to be an actual building? Can it be another type of structure that uses conventional energy and possibly could and should use other sources to operate? Such as a bridge?
Coach Mary :--)
The Green Hands
I was on a coaches' conference call Monday night and believe we were told that we should receive information on how to access a recording of that call. Has anyone received that information?
On the same call, it was mentioned that a certain team had constructed a table that they traveled with. If I recall correctly, we were told that those plans would also be emailed to us, but I don't have that either. Did anyone else get this information? We would like to build our table but need it to be portable for various reasons. We know that we won't be taking it to any shows, but we may be traveling locally with it to put on demonstrations.
Can anyone help me out with this?
- Message by: Carboneras2487 09/14/2007 06:03:32 GMT
I build a folding table this summer for our teams since their labs needed to be portable this year.
Everything is available at Home Depot.
The first principle is that all joints must be securely clamped before they're screwed together. The table needs to present a flush joint down the middle when it's fully deployed.
Start with a 4' piano hinge. Mount it on two 4' 2x2's. I used pine for the 2x2's because that's what I had. Oak would have been better. Fasten the hinge in the open position so that the 2x2's can be clamped evenly and squarely.
Use at least a 1/2" thick sheet of oak veneer plywood. Have Home Depot cut it in half for you. They've got a big machine for this and will do a nice job for no added cost.
Clamp your hinged 2x2's to both halves in a fully deployed position. Make the joint flush before fastening. Pre-drill and countersink for flat head screws through the plywood sheets into the 2x2's.
Use 2x4's for the sidewalls as you wood for a 1 piece table, here again, making the seems as flush as possible at the midpoint. I used self-drilling screws for the 2x4 sides, and plenty of them.
For legs I used the folding leg assemblies from 2 2x4 plastic portable tables - the kind that can be set for multiple heights. I had to disassemble the leg structures from the plastic table tops, invert the side rails and drill them out for multiple shallow screws. Then fasten these leg structures directly to the underside of the plywood halves so that each half is fully supported by a set of legs.
After varnishing the tabletop and painting the side rails black, I set it on a plain furniture dolly where it stays between uses. I also made a little bracket out of a spare piece of 2x4 with some long bolts through it that plugs into the side rails when the table is standing on end so that it remains closed and rigid when on the dolly. I also added some furniture glides to one side so the kids can deploy it by just sliding it open once they lift it off the dolly.
I explained to the kids to be careful to not hyperextend the table when opening it. I don't trust those pine blocks and that piano hinge to take much stress. But so far so good. The seam has remained flush and the table is performing well. - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 09/14/2007 15:22:06 GMT
Thats exactly how we built ours to. We did find saw horses for a few dollars at a hardware store that work well enough for holding the table up ;) Carla
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by:0222520A 09/14/2007 17:37:13 GMT
I chose dowel pins instead of hinges, and instead of a 2x2 I built a shallow box using 1x2 fir glued and tacked to the bottom of the table sections. My table breaks down into four 2'x4' sections. The dowel pins insert into the 1x2 stiffeners that frame each table section and align the table surface. The stiffeners also give me a rigid table using only 1/4" plywood. Its is half the weight of a 3/4" sheet of plywood (maybe less).
My walls are box beams made of 1/2" plywood. They are uniform, perfectly straight and lighter than a 2x4. Table and walls fasten together using machine screws into threaded inserts. With a power screwdriver I can assemble the table in two minutes, but I seldom have a chance. My team loves putting it together and taking it apart. The whole thing bundles together with a carrying strap for easy 1 hand transport. - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 09/14/2007 17:49:40 GMT
Thats a great design. Would you mind posting pictures for those of us who are a little more visual ;) Thanks, Carla
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: KHL87 09/14/2007 22:53:39 GMT
We built a portable table this year and so far are quite happy with it. For me the important part was designing something that would fit in the back of my vehicle so I would still have room for all the kids. You can find a couple of pictures of it on our web site and a basic description of how it is constructed. http://www.kingstonhomelearners.org/Waffles%20News.htm
Christine
W.A.F.F.L.E.S. #87 - Message by: 09/25/2007 19:28:29 GMT
Deleted
A possible field trip for FLL and JFLL teams in the New England states, plus Delaware, New York, Pennsylvania, and New Jersey is occurring on October 6, 2007. The Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) is sponsoring a Green Building Open House event. Over 400 buildings using alternative energy systems will be open to the public from 10AM - 4PM.
Visit their web page and follow the links to find specific buildings (with descriptions of the energy systems used)in your area that are available for touring.
http://nesea.org/buildings/openhouse/
Merle Yoder
Granby Red Blox 167
Granby, CT
Does the truck have to be all the way on the farm or just touching?
- Message by: KickBot 3881 09/28/2007 22:26:04 GMT
I have a few other questions regarding the missions.
Does the truck have to be all the way on the farm or just touching?
Does the solar panel start at the base or in front of the house?
Does the wave turbine pieces have to move while moving it to the location?
What do you do with all the barrels? - Message by: KickBot 3881 09/28/2007 22:41:06 GMT
Does the truck have to be all the way on the farm or just touching? - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/28/2007 22:55:07 GMT
KickBot,
It would be helpful if you posted under the proper area. In this case under "United States" "FLL Rule and Mission Discussions" and then in the proper area. Since you posted in the Research area, only those who are interested in keeping abreast of Research issues may see your message.
An indirect answer to your question is to carefully read the mission description and pay strict attention to the use of words like IN and ON. These words have very specific definitions in the rules.
-Skye
Hi:
Our team isn't sure what part of the building is meant by the term 'entryway'.
Some buildings have small area with a door to the outside and a door into the main area of the building. We're assuming that is one type of entryway. Of course, the buildings we're looking aren't designed with one of these spaces.
What about a building that only has a single door that leads right into the usable area of the building? Would the entryway be the space inside the single door that has another purpose? Or would it be the space immediately outside the main wall of the building?
Or should we just skip those questions and make a note that there is no entryway?
- Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/08/2007 00:43:11 GMT
I have know clue - Message by:0222520A 10/08/2007 07:04:32 GMT
I can't find where entryway is used. I found "What are the walkways for entries made from?" Here "entries" would most commonly be doors. The walkways could be made of cement, stone, dirt, etc...
Am I looking in the wrong place? - Message by: powerstormers 10/18/2007 10:37:41 GMT
That's the question. As you look across from the table it also asks if they are heated and do they need heat?
We're trying to figure out if this space is outside the door, or inside the door when there is a single door as the entry point.
My team wants to make a movie for their presentation. What are the rules (if any) on using clips, photos, or other media that is not their original work. If they spliced in a shot of a solar satellite from a NASA website, for example- is that okay as long as it we reference where the image came from?
- Message by: LEGOJuniors 10/18/2007 17:46:16 GMT
Specifically, from a copyright perspective, NASA stuff would be completely fine to use. For other media that is not from a government agency it would be best to seek permission from the source. In all cases the team should cite their sources. - Message by: FloridaModirator 10/18/2007 22:48:43 GMT
And, make sure the kids give credits to where they lifted the media from. - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/19/2007 15:17:56 GMT
Most stuff would fall under the "fair use" provisions of the copyright code, because it is for an educational purpose. I agree, give credit where credit is due.
- Gary - Message by: Missing Pieces 169 10/24/2007 01:42:38 GMT
We plan on doing the same. A great resource if your school has access is United Streaming. This can easily be incorporated into a i-movie.
Where can you find good information on energy? For example, what is energy?
- Message by: crazycreators252 10/21/2007 01:09:50 GMT
Wikipedia is a goog starting place. - Message by:015D2267 10/21/2007 03:15:26 GMT
Howthingswork.com is great, too.
How are you going to make your robot do the mission?
- Message by:0222520A 10/22/2007 21:23:19 GMT
This is not the kind of question for this forum. Each team has to come up with their own solutions for the missions, build their own robot and write their own programs.
My team chose our school for the project, mostly due to the difficulty of traveling somewhere else. The team has selected some items to change to improve the energy efficiency. However, we are having a hard time getting the information for the audit. Repeated requests for kilowatt usage and cost per kilowatt hour have been made to the district, with no response. We don't even know what company supplies the electricity to the building. This affects our proposal because we don't know how much savings will occur, or how long it will take to pay for the changes. It's too late to change buildings now. Any suggestions?
Linda
- Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 10/26/2007 17:57:04 GMT
Try making the request to the building superintendent. He/She might have access or knows who has access to the current electric bills. We audited our local library and the facilities manager was the one who got them for us. Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 10/28/2007 02:50:47 GMT
Actual data is best if available, but if you're not able to get the information specific to the school in time, estimates based on relevant information you do have are better than nothing. Is your home in the same area as the school? Can you determine the cost/kilowatt hour from your own utility bill? Have the kids count or estimate how many lights are in each classroom, how many classrooms and corridors there are, and special facilities like computer labs and kitchens. It might be fun for them to go through the school counting lights, electric pencil sharpeners, and other electronic paraphernalia. It would also be helpful for them to think of how many hours each item gets used daily.
Yolande - Message by: bears299 10/28/2007 21:06:11 GMT
I guess I'm wondering how much deduction we will get for an incomplete audit form. We can fill out some from visual observation, estimate some, but some parts would just be blank if we don't hear back from the experts.
Linda - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 10/29/2007 01:14:49 GMT
A lot depends on the individual judges evaluating your presentation. My (totally unofficial) opinion is that if kids approach a building administrator for information (showing that they understand that this was the assignment) but s/he is uncooperative or slow, they should not be deducted for something beyond their control, especially if there there are limited alternative buildings nearby. BRIEFLY explaining the things they tried or considered that failed (or proved impractical) would demonstrate an important part of the learning process. If they show cleverness, originality in problem-solving, and a good understanding of how energy is used and how to reduce its use, I would give them far more credit than if they only reported, "The supervisor told us XXX kilowatt hours were used, and we want to reduce it to YYY kilowatt hours."
It helps to understand who the judges are: commonly, they are parents, teachers, and former FLL coaches who want to see kids do the work and try their best. There may be a few real energy experts on the panel, but even they wouldn't expect the precision from 9-14-year-old kids that they would from professionals.
Yolande
P.S. I have heard from several coaches that the kids lack enthusiasm for this year's project in a way that has never happened before. If you can get the kids to attack/approach the project in a way that excites them and they convey this enthusiasm and energy (ha) to the judges, I believe that this would go a long way. - Message by: The Eagles 10/29/2007 15:51:17 GMT
I certainly hope the judge's aren't going to get hung up about filling out the form. It is supposed to be a resource. It isn't a component of the project. - Message by:0222520A 10/29/2007 23:30:52 GMT
It is likely that the judges will mark you down for not completing the energy audit. But the audit is only part of the research project. The loss of points can be overcome by doing an outstanding job in other areas.
Last year my team was marked down for not sharing their findings with the community. They completed the project too late to do much. But their solution was unique and well researched, and their background knowledge in nanotechnoloty was outstanding. They ended up getting top scores at the state tournament. - Message by: edgewoodorange5471 11/07/2007 23:06:15 GMT
Does anyone know if we have to present the judges with the audit at the competition or do we just use it as a resource, for our own use?? - Message by: The Eagles 11/07/2007 23:54:13 GMT
It is up to your team what you present to the judges. Part of the project is the energy audit, so I would certainly encourage them to spend some time presenting what they did.
However, if you are asking whether you need to give the judges the filled in Energy Audit How-To Guide, the project resources section of the website says, "The "Energy Audit How-To Guide" is designed to help get your team started with performing an energy audit. It includes suggestions about how to choose the building for your project and get connected with the people in charge, as well as sample questions you may want to ask to better analyze its energy usage." I think you can certainly give it to them if you want, but I don't think you have to. - Message by: zap4702 11/08/2007 01:44:24 GMT
Our team tries to put together a "judges' package" for their project each year, which they either leave with the judges or just show them during their project interview.
It generally includes things like: a copy of their script, photos of any field trips, emails from experts who have answered questions for them, a bibliography, etc. This year I expect their audit will be part of this package.
Doreen, Coach
Team ZAP! - Message by: delta1132 12/06/2007 01:33:18 GMT
Our team called the superintendent directly. You might want to attempt to contact the district office or the superintendent directly. It will be faster and the superintendent will most likely have more info to give on energy usage of the building. - Message by: delta1132 12/06/2007 01:33:53 GMT
By the way, the audit does not have to be left behind with the judges. - Message by: bears299 12/06/2007 02:45:31 GMT
Thanks for all your comments about the audit. After a few weeks, we did get the audit info from the district. We shared it with another school that has the same floor plan. At our state tournament, the team made it to the final four for the project, and presented their skit to the audience. The team did not get a trophy for research project, however, because they had already won the first place trophy for robot performance, and then received the first place Champion's Trophy (limit of 2 trophies per team). Our "sister" school that we shared our audit info with got a research project trophy, so we were very happy for them.
Linda
Do you need to cite your sources from research somewhere in your presentation?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/09/2007 16:06:22 GMT
One should always cite your research! Not doing so can land you in a lot of trouble when you get past middle school.
A bibliography with your citations would be a good idea. In fact you can hand the judges that sheet to look over while they watch your presentation.
-Skye - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/09/2007 18:31:27 GMT
As part of your presentation, you might want to direct the judges to some particular item. You could say, "As you can see on pages 42-47 of our handout, we used a lot of resources. One of the most unique was when we got to interview President Bush after we did an energy audit of the White House. He explained that much of the energy usage was due to the high security measures needed."
- Gary
(What, no one thought of using the White House as their public building?)
I like the format of the Energy Audit How-To Guide on the FLL web site under Project Resources. However, it is a PDF file and cannot be edited. Is there an editable version available so that we can document our Energy Audit?
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/28/2007 13:57:17 GMT
It would take a bit of work on your end, but you can highlight all the text in the PDF (using the select icon) then copy it and paste it into Word. The tables and other formating will not copy, but the bulk of the words will. You 'just' then need to spend a hour of quality time adding the formating back in.
-Skye - Message by: legos 11/30/2007 17:34:36 GMT
I rec'd these editable energy sites from a friend. You may use, too.
Thanks for your call on energy use information for schools. The information we discussed is attached. The Energy Data Summary spreadsheet needs input for the Month, Year, Heating Degree Days, Cooling Degree Days, Electrical Energy, Electrical Demand (normally used for large buildings), Electrical Costs, Natural Gas Energy and Cost. The other values are then calculated automatically, converted to BTUs and plotted on the graphs. The instructions are on the *How To Update EDS Info* tab worksheet. Your students may have a good learning experience by making the energy conversions represented on this spreadsheet.
The various Energy Utilization Indices noted in the middle of the spreadsheet benchmark how energy efficient a building is compared to other buildings * the value can be considered like the miles per gallon for a vehicle, with the exception that the LOWER the EUI values, the better. Also attached is a presentation excerpt from a presentation on High Performance Schools that I have given to numerous schools in Iowa. It includes comparison EUI data for typical Iowa schools, typical Midwest schools, and several energy efficient schools in Iowa. Please note the difference between source energy and site energy in the values and the comparison * as we had discussed, it is important to make the distinction.
Another excellent way to evaluate the energy performance of your school building is to use the Energy Star Target Finder tool. This tool uses the monthly utility bill information and square footage as input to the EDS spreadsheet, and uses a few other simple inputs such as number of students, hours of operation, number of computers, etc. It returns a numeric score for your school which is a rank compared to other schools in your climate zone. Visit http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=new_bldg_design.bus_target_finder and click on the Target Finder link to input the data.
In schools, the typical major energy efficiency items are lighting, daylighting and lighting controls, heat/energy recovery, proper control of ventilation air, high efficiency heating and cooling equipment. Attached are excerpts from another presentation to give you some ideas in these areas. Another item often overlooked is the energy consumption of the computers, pop machines, office equipment, and similar items. Making sure your computers have their sleep and hibernate modes enabled makes a large difference in the amount of energy used. A savings calculator tool is available from Energy Star to identify the savings available from using the sleep mode on the computer and from using LED screens in lieu of CRT displays on computers. Your students may want to consider the use of a Vendmizer sensor that shuts off pop and drink machines when the area is unoccupied * for more information check out: http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=vending_machines.pr_vending_machines.
In the area of renewable energy, the Iowa Energy Center has a wind turbine calculator tool on there website that will evaluate the wind energy potential for any location in the state and allows you to input the wind turbine size and type along with the tower height. To use the tool, go to Iowa Energy Center*s website at: http://www.energy.iastate.edu and follow the links through renewable energy, wind, and to the wind assessment study and turbine calculator. Then click on the *I agree* disclaimer to enter the calculator tool. Ideally, you would select a turbine that would match the buildings monthly electrical load.
I just wanted to share a presentation vehicle that our team discovered through Google. Our team created animated cartoons (without audio, only word bubbles) instead of a skit to use for their presentation. We discovered a website called www.fluxtime.com which is run by multimedia designers out of the U.K. The website is created for classrooms and does cost money for a yearly subscription. There are tutorials there on how to draw and animate, creating cliparts and backgrounds. It works similarly to Paint or Draw in Windows or PowerPoint. The kids were each assigned different drawing/animation tasks as homeworks and they saved their work to the Share folder. After the audit, the kids came up with a theme for their presentation, two near-term solutions, and one long-term solution. Then they wrote three skits with characters they could draw that would be played after they presented their ideas verbally. They broke off into smaller groups to do each cartoon, each child being able to contribute a cartoon character or a background or animating the scene. The cartoons can be sent to friends in an email and you can embed them into a website.
The kids wanted to be able to present their cartoons at the Qualifiers and we didn't know if we would have internet access. So, we recorded the cartoons on a laptop using Microsoft Media Encoder, which is a free recording software that works with Media Player. The original cartoons were too long, so the kids had to edit them as videos. They used Microsoft Movie Maker to reduce their time length. A 1 minute cartoon took my kids about 2.5 hours of dedicated animating (this includes the time it took to draw all of the characters and backgrounds). My kids are on the younger end of the spectrum (9 & 10), so for the older kids this should be a piece of cake.
This seemed to be a novel idea to the judges because the children earned a trophy for Best Project Presentation at our Qualifier. I wanted to share it with you all here because it was something the children could work on at home and that everyone, no matter their artistic level, could contribute. Fluxtime.com is run by volunteers out of England and if you have any ideas on how they can improve on their site, they seem to be open to anything. I think we spent $75 US dollars for the annual subscription. It was worth every penny. You get 25 seats, so in reality a few teams could share the subscription. It really blows PowerPoint out of the water in terms of ease of use. I think the judges enjoyed the cartoons if not only for the lively content, the kids were quiet as Church mice so the judges could read the word bubbles...it was awesome!
We hope you find this idea and link helpful!
Jennifer
Brightonbots
Rochester, NY
- Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/05/2007 15:43:50 GMT
Thank you so so much! I will show my kids for next season. Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team
On the grading rubric, there is a box that says, "Alternate Views Ignored". Should "alternate views" be interpreted to mean other possible energy sources, or other views (pro/con) of the energy source the team suggests using?
I was just wondering if your presentation judges ever stop a presentation after the alloted 5 minutes? My team has tried very hard both this year and last to stay under the 5 minutes. This year, it was hard for them but they did it. At our regional, they had a couple groups present to everyone and it seems like they were longer than the 5 minutes.
I'm just curious.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 12/16/2007 03:52:19 GMT
It all depends on the tournament! In New Hampshire, a room proctor calls time after five minutes. At this point the team should be winding down and the judges allow them to finish. At some point if the team continues, the judges must cut them off so as to allow for questions.
At other tournaments they may be cut of quickly or allowed to finish. It depends on if the tournament is under a time constraint, if its a scheduled tournament or 'runner controlled', and other factors.
A team should very much work to the five minutes as a firm time even if it is a bit squishy. The idea is to get the most time with the judges for Q&A and to keep the tournament on schedule.
In Destination Imagination (DI) presentations are strictly timed with the team having to say "time" at the end. Use this as your goal!
-Skye - Message by: bears299 12/16/2007 17:54:54 GMT
At our tournament, the teams who were chosen to present to the audience were given extra time (6 minutes) because they had to pass around a microphone for the gym's public address system.
Linda
I was just wondering if your presentation judges ever stop a presentation after the alloted 5 minutes? My team has tried very hard both this year and last to stay under the 5 minutes. This year, it was hard for them but they did it. At our regional, they had a couple groups present to everyone and it seems like they were longer than the 5 minutes.
I'm just curious.
For the research project, just what type of solutions are the judges looking for? Something realistic and practical which can be done now like putting plants in the building or something imaginary which probably can be implemented in the far future?
- Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/21/2007 16:02:23 GMT
They are looking for realism. One of the questions you are going to get ask is if the ideas were actually implemented. Like our kids said thinks like CF light bulbs, trees for shade/wind block and automated heating/lighting controls.
There is also the side where you add any amazing new research. So for example new solar technology could be used here as a future phase. Does that help? Carla :)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/21/2007 16:11:48 GMT
It depends! Some teams take a very practical approach and may even implement their solution. For Ocean Odyssey one team realized they could save tons of water at their school by simply changing the bathroom faucet aerators with a different model. They found a company to give them samples and had them installed. Very practical; very possible; very good presentation.
Other teams have proposed technology that is still in the future but not 'impossible'. One such team proposed power generation from a new type of wave generator. Its not impossible, but its at least 5 years away from reality. This was also a good presentation.
Some teams propose anti gravity or perpetual motion machines. These do not tend to do as well.
In the work that I do, we often will design devices with parts that are not available today, but might/could/will be available in 5-7 years. That tends to be the time to take a pie-in-the-sky idea from drawing board to store. If that part does not make it in time, we are sunk or have to use the contengency plans. I would suggest a similar time line.
-Skye
Folder: FLL Resources - For Coaches, by Coaches 05/15/2008 20:45:08 GMT
Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 09/27/2007 19:34:15 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08
Use these to plan your missions.
* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.
* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.
* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)
* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.
Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com
Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...
Please pass this on to other countries as well.
Enjoy...
Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...
- Message by: PISDFLL1357 08/17/2007 21:08:06 GMT
Those look pretty handy -- we'll see how our team uses them this weekend. :)
Thanks for posting! - Message by: icNRG 2340 08/19/2007 13:26:55 GMT
Thanks, really great can you tell me how you did manage to copy the mat?
We will use them for sure. - Message by: hornets2488 09/06/2007 06:34:47 GMT
Thank you. These will be very useful! - Message by: Brightonbots1536 09/17/2007 22:35:15 GMT
With the small amount of time we have to get our rookie team together, these are invaluable. Thanks for sharing them with us! - Message by: WomenInBlack3513 09/27/2007 19:34:15 GMT
From Jim Kelly (http://www.thenxtstep.com and http://www.cafepress.com/thenxtstep):
-----
I was hesitant to release these before October 14th but I think there is a definite need for as much help as can be provided to new coaches. I'm giving a talk at Bot'oberfest in Atlanta on October 14th (FLL gathering of coaches and teachers) and this worksheet will be part of my discussion. Unfortunately, at this point in time, I can only make the worksheet available along with the "Using the FLL worksheet" but I'll be happy to answer questions about it. After Bot'oberfest I'll see about condensing my notes into a document to be shared here.
Jim Kelly
Worksheet and Instructions for using it: http://thenxtstep.com/repository/FLLWorksheet.zip
Bot'oberfest Info: http://thenxtstep.blogspot.com/2007/09/botoberfest-in-atlanta-october-14-2007.html
I*m not a coach (anymore), so I hope it*s not too presumptuous for me to post here. For those of you new to FLL, there are many resources available. I*m listing a few of my favorites that are comprehensive and address many aspects of the team experience (not just a single answer to a single question).
Minnesota High-Tech Kids : http://www.hightechkids.org/?2-1-1000
There are lots of resources here, including curriculum/coaching materials, videos of past competitions, and technical manuals. Under the *Information* link, then *Library*, you can find a list of all documents available.
The Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) http://www.fll-freak.com/faq/index.htm
This is a compilation of questions and answers from over 6000 posts on the FLL forum from previous years. If you have a question, it has very likely been asked by someone else and may be here.
The FLL forum search function (one of 4 orange tabs appearing at the end of each post).
While the FLL forum might look empty at the beginning of the season, there are actually 6 years* worth of archives with many good questions and answers. For example, if you search for *memory problem*, you will find questions and answers from last year related to NXT*s memory limitations. Caution: Occasionally if a search item has too many posts, it returns *no results found.* For example, searching for *turns* yields no results, but *sharp turns* returns more than a dozen results. While you*ll want to post challenge-specific questions in this year*s forum, there are many technical questions that have already been answered in great depth from many different perspectives.
Wishing a great season to everyone! Anyone else have favorite rookie resources?
Yolande
- Message by: The Crew 09/18/2007 01:10:35 GMT
There is a really good one with all the stuff to put in your notebook - http://www.techbrick.com - Message by: shebots 10/23/2007 17:00:28 GMT
INSciTe, the organization that coordinates First ego League in Minnesota, has put a number of new videos on their web sight at:
http://www.hightechkids.org/?2-1-1054
The videos show sample judging sessions from research and technical judging from the 2006, Nano Quest, season. These videos and the associated judging score sheets could be quite useful for new coaches, providing a view into how judging is done in Minnesota tournaments.
Rand - Message by: Windward6087 11/08/2007 03:37:32 GMT
I'm a rookie coach. While looking for suggestions on how to work with one particularly distractable kid, found a wealth of coaching and team-management suggestions in an archive. It starts off with an angst-ridden coach wondering if the team should even attempt going to the tournament; ends with post-tournament report. Other coaches, too, offer advice and encouragement and tell stories of their experiences. At the end, spell-check humor offers comic relief.
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?128@@.ee990b2 - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/11/2007 18:14:54 GMT
This is my favorite post/thread of all time. Thanks for rediscovering this gem.
Yolande
Hello we are a new club but not new to FLL Lego Robotics. We are looking for used filed kits form the previous year to purchase to use for our team to used in the off season.
The goal is to reach out to the community by providing mini camps/clubs used the older field kits and have mock tournaments between the club members in hopes that they will want to join or start a new club in the fall.
This will give the older students an opportunity to mentor the younger students.
Not sure where to begin but thought I would start here.
JoAnn
- Message by: westmiddleschool97 09/09/2007 22:24:51 GMT
Check E-Bay. A few kits show up every once in a while. Good luck. - Message by: GlowyRobots4416 09/18/2007 03:35:06 GMT
I asked the tournament director when we attended last year for one or more kits and mats with same idea as yours. Stayed around for cleanup and got last years and year before. - Message by: STARbots 10/10/2007 04:41:14 GMT
He we have mats from the last two years that we would like to donate to your group. Email us privately. Good Luck!
Coach Stacy nonoaustin@bellsouth.net
STARbots
Students, Technology, And Robots - Message by: Hydro7323 10/19/2007 18:28:49 GMT
I am also looking for previous years mats and field kits. I not only coach a rookie team this year, but teach a Robotics Club at my elementary school in Reston after school and we are without tournament mats to try out our robots programming.
Thanks!
Paul - Message by: robodogs2506 02/19/2008 20:22:44 GMT
Anyone selling the PowerPuzzle kit? - Message by: robodogs2506 05/15/2008 20:45:08 GMT
still looking for a puzzle kit...mostly interested in the playing pieces. Our email is suwannee4hrobodogs@yahoo.com - Message by: darthpanthers2465 02/21/2008 16:02:40 GMT
I have a parent who purchased several Lego items from a retiring coach. The items were from Mission to Mars season. Although she has the lego pieces, unfortunately she did not get mission assembly instructions for the Mission to Mars pieces. Does anyone have access to the assembly instructions for the Mission to Mars season that you could email?
her contact info
Billiana
billianna@gmail.com
thanks
Rich Berglund
Darth Panthers 2.10 - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 02/21/2008 22:55:05 GMT
I have the CD with building instructions -- will contact the parent to figure out the best way to get a copy of the files to her.
Yolande - Message by: darthpanthers2465 02/21/2008 23:00:14 GMT
Yolande,
that is great news. I will let her know
thanks
rich - Message by: robodogs2506 02/26/2008 18:34:38 GMT
Can't you find the building instructions in an archive file on the USFirst site somewhere? - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 02/26/2008 23:05:29 GMT
That would be doubtful. I'm sure its still there somewhere, but it would be nearly impossible to find a link. FIRST revamped its site a year or so ago, and rearranged the location of contents. Earlier you could have just pulled up the current 2007 version of a document and replaced "2007" with "2003" in the url. Now however, the location of documents doesn't follow that scheme. It's been tried for FRC rules.
- Gary - Message by: 02/26/2008 18:36:22 GMT
Deleted
Here are some links to FLL Power Puzzle shirts you can purchase and/or customize for your team.
Shirts from Playing at Learning
Shirts from Robotics Learning
The second link is for a shirt design I have created for some teams and tournaments I'm working with, but anyone can order them, in a variety of color options. You can even add a custom team name or logo to the other side of the shirt.
Please add any other sources of FLL shirts to this discussion.
Steve Putz
www.RoboticsLearning.com
- Message by: 09/07/2007 01:42:13 GMT
Deleted - Message by: RoboticsLearning 09/09/2007 20:59:41 GMT
Here's what the Robotics Learning shirt looks like.
order form - Message by: SolarBots2736 10/01/2007 08:23:38 GMT
UPDATE: Shirts ordered by October 5th will be printed and ready by mid October. The next printing after that will be in November.
Steve Putz
www.RoboticsLearning.com - Message by: SolarBots2736 10/26/2007 09:53:58 GMT
UPDATE: Next deadline is October 29, for shirts to be shipped by Nov. 7.
Contact Steve Putz with questions, 408-910-1176
see http://www.roboticslearning.com/FLL/shirt
and also some great custom team name artwork at
http://www.roboticslearning.com/FLL/shirt/samples
I am happy to report that we have more than doubled the number of kids who want to participate in FLL this year... however, that now means we have too many kids for one team.
We spent a fair amount of time in our last meeting discussing how we should split into two teams, but there was no consensus.
Some of the "veterans" want their own team. Some of the new kids want to be with the "veterans". Some of the kids want to self choose, which could lead to lopsided teams. Some of the parents have expressed concern about the "veterans" being separate.
Has anyone else run into this situation? How did you handle it?
Thanks!!
- Message by: FloridaModirator 09/08/2007 22:26:48 GMT
Yes, we had a similar problem. We decided to allow the kids that had been on a team to stay on the team they started the previous year. If they wanted to change teams that was ok. The other kids (new kids) were lotteried into the spots that were left.
Hope this helps.
Laura - Message by: powerstormers 09/10/2007 05:08:23 GMT
We were faced with this situation in the spring.
I let the kids decide. The team wanted to stay together and only added younger siblings to replace some team members who left. The new kids would have to form their own team.
We invited the new kids to our meetings in the spring. They formed their own team and participated in our summer camp based on the NXT Mayan Adventure book ( http://www.sciencekidsathome.com/science_experiments/lego_nxt_mayan_robot.html )
Our plan is to share field trips. Their coach is away for a couple of weeks and I'll be checking with the parents to see if they need any help.
If a team doesn't want to be split up, I wouldn't force them to do it. The new team is a rookie team, just like all the other rookie teams that are entering that year.
--
Christine - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 09/14/2007 06:42:52 GMT
To the parents (and kids) concerned about the new kids being separate from the veterans, I would emphasize that a rookie will get more hands-on time on a rookie team than one where the veterans already know what to do and want to take over.
Yolande
How many hours do you spend as a coach per day or week working on the FLL program for each of your teams?
Thanks, Jon.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/10/2007 15:51:29 GMT
First year 8-10 hours a week.
Second year 6-8 hours a week.
Third year 4-6 hours a week.
Fourth year 4-6 hours a week.
During these years we had a very successful team. Your team's success is directly proportional to the time invested.
-Skye - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/10/2007 17:49:23 GMT
As usual, Skye is right on. The hours are about the same we spent.
Laura - Message by: zap4702 09/10/2007 19:54:35 GMT
Do you mean meeting time with the team, or additional time doing preparation and organizing? We spend about 5 hours per week in meetings, and I spend about an hour a day on planning meetings, organizing, communicating with parents, reading the forum, etc.
I'm also a parent of one of the team members, so I spend a bit of time making sure he has fulfilled his research obligations to the team (not his favourite aspect of FLL). I don't consider that as "coaching" time though.
In our first year I spent a lot more of my own time, just figuring it all out.
Doreen,
Team ZAP! - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/10/2007 19:59:30 GMT
For our team, the 8 to 10 hours were broken up like this
2 meetings a week 2.5 hours each = 5 hours
3 hours in preparing, gathering information , reading the forum.
Yes as time goes on (years) less time is needed on the routine.
Laura - Message by: ECA Hawks 09/10/2007 20:14:32 GMT
Thanks for the input everybody. I think last year I spent about 10 hours a week working on everything after the regular meetings with the kids. I'm guessing this year will be about the same.
Jon. - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/10/2007 21:42:16 GMT
After re-reading the question I realize I miss read the question. The amount of time I (the coach) spent on FLL excluding meeting time was more like an hour a day.
This further excludes the time I spend making movies, writing documents, mentoring other coaches, attending judge training, teaching classes, ....
-Skye - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/10/2007 22:13:46 GMT
answering forum questions ...
thanks Skye - your the greatest - Message by: tanrobotics 09/11/2007 04:22:17 GMT
We are about the same.
2 meetings / week @ 2.5hrs per meeting
plus about 1/hr per day reading forums, planning, etc.
We also usually add in a 3rd meeting per week on the last
3 weeks before the competitions.
We also spend a Saturday sometime to meet a University Professor for the research project.
Paul Tan.
SCS Pengiuns
St. Clement's School - Message by: NCFIRST 09/14/2007 01:10:23 GMT
Dang - I'm jealous!! I would love to have 4 to 5 hours a week with my teams. But to help any rookie coaches out there not panic, FLL can be done on as few as 3 hours per week.
Marie
Coach Ionic Pioneers, Hyper-Static Penguins and Terramatix - Message by: Legonauts603 09/15/2007 21:11:53 GMT
We have a rookie team and we spend 3-4 hours per week meeting and about 1-2 a week in prep. That will probably pick up as we go further into the season. - Message by: hotwired250 09/17/2007 08:39:04 GMT
Actually, it can be done in 2 hours a week with some extra practices toward competition. However, you have to plan, plan, plan, have a team that cooperates (which isn't always easy), and serve pizza.
I was a rookie coach with a rookie team last year. We placed in the top third in the state, but my team busted A to get it done. I, on the other hand, gained about 10 pounds from eating freakin' pizza every Friday night for supper for 8 1/2 weeks.
Really, you'd be surprised what kids will do for pizza. :)
-Hot Wired - Message by: zap4702 09/17/2007 15:27:42 GMT
In our case, the bribes have taken the form of samosas, chips & salsa, and lots and lots of chocolate :-)
Doreen
Team ZAP! - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/17/2007 16:03:39 GMT
Sorry, Lime Jell-O all the way.
-Skye - Message by: robotcobras950 09/19/2007 02:58:51 GMT
Can you please elaborate on the planning part of this? I am a newbie coach with a team so green that they are barely pushing through the dirt (none have ANY electronics/technical/computer experience). We only have 1.5 hours a week. With snacks and greetings aside, plus the general 'boy humor', we are lucky to get anything done without me cracking the whip all the time. I hate doing that! I want it to be fun for them and have not tasked them too heavily with "homework", but I don't see us getting too far if we don't take some time outside of the meetings to work on things. Any ideas to help us make our competition deadline?
Thanks!
Stefanie - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/19/2007 23:05:25 GMT
As a rookie coach of rookie students, you will have a hard time getting them motivated till they see a competition for themselves. When they do, the lights turn on and the motor starts to run.
Thinking back on my first year, I hid the challeenge mat and introduced programing via a series of mini challenges. I had the luxery of having 3 robot kits for 10 students. We split up into small groups and competed against each other. Having that competition does keep them on task.
Only after they had gotten a fair understanding of programming and building did I allow them to work on the missions. By that time they could appreciate the difficulty level of the missions and hence could pick the ones they do manage.
For you I would suggest some simple mini challenges like the ones I have in the Coaches' Primer at www.fll-freak.com. The first few are glorified buldozer missions that will get you into the mid 200's. Get them do accomplish these, and then have them apply them to PP.
I did assign research project homework. This freed up lots of meeting time. I also held some optional weekend research and programing sessions for those that could make it.
In my opinion we often don't realize what our students are capable of till we give them a good challenge. Often the school system catters to the lowest common denominator and the higher end students step down to that level. Expect them to rise to your expectations and they often can.
-Skye
Greetings fellow coaches,
I wrote a program for my team that quickly calculates scores. Due to the complicated scoring this season, I figured it may be of interest to other teams as well. Both Mac and PC versions can be found here:
http://homepage.mac.com/aklego/fllscore/FileSharing44.html
I wrote these in LabVIEW 8.2 so, in order for them to be of use, you will need to install the included LabVIEW runtime. These programs are provided as is, no warranty, etc.etc. Hopefully they will be of use and feedback is welcome.
Regards,
Tom
- Message by: team168 09/11/2007 07:44:35 GMT
Ok, The PC version should now work as I have now included the proper files. Sorry about any confusion.
Tom - Message by: RoboRobbins1427 10/07/2007 05:17:20 GMT
Thanks Tom,
I have downloaded your program and will try it out with my Team. Thanks.
From, a Low Tech Girl, in a High Tech World
The scoring this year is complex (I like it, it's a puzzle for the kids!), so I created an Excel spreadsheet that can be used to quickly calculate scores, to encourage understanding and experimentation with the challenge. This sheet would also be useful in printed form for refs at scrimmages and tournaments. Also included is a way for the team to keep a running log of their scores.
The spreadsheet is available at
http://www.tappoint.com/robotics/scoring
Let me know if you find any problems.
Dave Parker
RoboWarriors789
- Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/12/2007 21:50:34 GMT
Pretty slick. I just noticed a couple of things:
Trees - max of (planted) plus (at power plant) = 4
Oil barrels - I could enter more than 11 total (at farm, at power plant and in base)
Grid Connection - I believe that the dam end and windmills only count if they are in a white section that is connected by the power lines. They are a bonus of being connected, not a connection in and of themselves. (But I may be wrong - I've still got to come to a full understanding of this mission!)
I don't know if you want to have your spreadsheet flag these errors so they can be correctly input. Else, you could score well over 400 points! - Message by: RoboWarriors789 09/13/2007 02:52:02 GMT
The sheet doesn't enforce the total number of trees and oil barrels entered across missions. This makes it possible to get the sheet to read more than 400 points, but the values entered would not represent a physically possible outcome. I actually did this intentionally so that the kids will have to puzzle over this a little...
However, the scoring forumla on the trees at the power plant actually does enfore that other trees must be planted. This was not obvious, so I changed the text to describe this somewhat better. This will still be a puzzle for some I realize.
Grid Connection, Dam, and Wind Turbines: I think what I have in there is correct. The Dam and Turbines score by themselves in separate missions, then communities that are connected by gridlines and also have a dam/turbine score a 5 point bonus each. It does all add up to 400 this way if you manage your trees and oil properly...
-- Dave Parker - Message by: RoboWarriors789 09/13/2007 08:09:58 GMT
OK, thanks to Tim Keith for an idea for a subtle way to check for too many total trees or oil barrels. The sheet is updated and now checks for these and shouldn't show a score over 400 now.
-- Dave Parker - Message by: darthpanthers2465 09/13/2007 12:33:06 GMT
This is a great tool. As a Torunament Director, I'd like to be able to capture Team Name, Team Number, and robot run # on the score log based on similiar entries on score sheet. This way a history of tournament can be recorded. Is there a easy way to accomplish this using this spreadsheet. Alas, I'm not a VBE guy. Thanks
Rich Berglund
Tournament Director
Power Puzzle Quest
darthpanthers@gmail.com - Message by: PlaceritaTech3910 09/14/2007 01:18:10 GMT
Greetings All.
Last year someone posted a scoring program that had a timer and results spreadsheet. It was a great resource for our tournament and practices. I can't remember who created it but it was great. I was wondering if they were going to create one for this years challenge
Paul Kass
Placerita Robotics - Message by: RoboWarriors789 09/14/2007 04:36:34 GMT
A tournament version of the sheet is now posted at the same link above, which includes a multi-team results page that records each team number, team name, and the team's run scores. We used a similar sheet I made last year at two of our tournaments and it worked out well.
There is no timer, but that can be handled with another utility, stopwatches, etc.
-- Dave Parker
I'm not sure this is the correct place to be posting this but it's the only forum that mentions coaches.
We had our 3rd meeting today and it was a disaster. We spent the first two building models and talking about the missions. Today we talked through mission strategy which was great. We then moved onto building a prototype robot base. This is were things went bad.
The kids focused on everything except the task at hand, they were building cranes, grappling hooks, claws, but not a robot base. I fairly quickly determined that the issue was they were overwhelmed by the task and didn't know how to proceed. So I tried to give them leading questions like, "how many wheels should the robot have?" and they would answer but still were unable to proceed. I tried giving them hints but to no avail. I didn't tell how to proceed because I know I'm supposed to let them figure it out for themselves but they were unable to do so. I tried showing them other robot designs from both past missions and from several NXT books I have but they were still paralyzed.
So anybody have any suggestions? Since this is a prototype should I walk them through it, since I know they will eventually tear it apart and build their own and this will give them ideas?
Thanks
-- Craig
- Message by: homebotics1229 09/13/2007 06:47:49 GMT
During our prep, this is one of the take home assignments for our team members. We ask each team member to come back to the next meeting with their best idea for a base. We get some really creative ideas. Think of it as brainstorming homework . . .LOL.
My other suggestion would be to ask the team members with the most experience to build a base together. Our three oldest ones volunteered this year. Then at the next team meeting, the builders explained what they did and why. Then the rest of the team was asked to give their input on any changes (and there were a few) to the current base design.
As a team we talked about the basics of a good base design. We discussed it's strengths and weaknesses. We asked about what the parameters or limitations the team member could see on the field that would impact the base design. When we were finished we had a working model to proceed. Mind you, that doesn't mean it won't change later when the team finds another limiting factor on the field that they hadn't discovered before . . .
Theresa Wagar
Homebotics, Newport News, Virginia - Message by:0222520A 09/13/2007 08:21:16 GMT
Put away the table and hide all the field pieces. Restrict access to LEGO pieces.
Make a list of what the robot has to be able to do. These have to be simple things like "Move forward" or "Push something". Tasks like "Pick something up" should be broken down into what is required to pick the thing up. "Put the solar panel on the house" is too complicated to be useful.
Associate a LEGO piece (or small number of LEGO pieces) with each item in the list.
Using the LEGO pieces play "your are the robot" and have the team demonstrate how they might accomplish the missions.
By now you should have answered questions like "how many motors will we need?" and "will we use the light sensor?" You may even have rudimentary models for the attachments you will use.
Don't expect things to gel quickly. Hoping to have the robot base ready by your third meeting is a bit optimistic. - Message by: ECA Hawks 09/13/2007 14:25:15 GMT
We had our second meeting last night. Our first meeting was crazy and all we did was watch the Compilation DVD. Last night we started building the missions. It started pretty crazy but after 1.5 hours it calmed down a lot. We have one student who is kind of loud and has the "answer" for everything. But he's discovering the benefits of slowing down and thinking things through. I'd say our third meeting will be similar but you never know... Eventually things will start to click. The trick is to stay calm and help them stay on track.
Jon. - Message by: RaleighBots106 09/13/2007 18:29:40 GMT
We started first with getting the kids some basic building knowledge by giving them simple assignements like connecting beams, progressing slowly to more complex task like right angles and crossing beams. The results were then photographed as part of a ongoing instructopedia collection (see attachment). Then we started making frames for stability and figuring out how to connect to motors together. We talked about different drive systems (2 wheel, 4 wheel, tracks) and used real world examples. We build swivel wheels by researching them from lego books and again building models and took pictures for later reference. I notioced that the kids often forget the things they learned the day before and the refernce was a nice way of pointing them in the right direction (like a dictionary) on how to make certain connections. We then progressed to adding the NXT brick to the motor frame using right angle connections we learned earlier. In between I also had the less experineced kids build a model from a book (Mayan Adventures). So far this has produced some real results. Just remember the robot is just the start, if they rather copy one from a book to start that is fine. Take small steps to not overwhelm. It took us 6 meeting to get there. We also covered the technic lego design tutorial on the lego webpage.
Thanks for taking this on in the first place . - Message by: Team4287 09/13/2007 19:41:18 GMT
Welcome to being a coach :)
My last year experience:
Last year we were a rookie team and there was a lot of information to cover and learn. I set the expectation with the kids and parents that we would be successful if we got 3-4 missions done. Half way through the season (4 weeks) we had only got one mission done, and 1 week prior to the tournament, all the missions were completed.
During this time, the robot was initial the education robot, then dismantled and rebuilt several times. One thing I did do was establish priorities:
#1) Family and family activies
#2) School (if you don't have your homework done don't come)
#3) FLL
This worked out great because there was one time a student didn't have their homework done. Not only did they not come to a practice, but the team also felt his absents.
Because we don't have a permanent room, we must setup and tear down each practice. This also taught the kids time management, because the time it takes for them to tear down is used to determine when we start to tear down at the next practice. For example, if they are goofing off and they take 15 minutes to tear down, we will start tear down at the next meeting 15 minutes earlier. They learn quickly and there was one and only one time where we just sat in the room for 12 minutes.
What I am trying to say is as a coach you are responsible to help guide and motivate the students to learn and have fun. I believe learning from your experience is the best teacher so if you can show them the consequence of THEIR decisions early you will do well. Also be careful not to place your expectations on the kids.
And yes we have all had our bad practices. Mine was 2 weeks before the tournament the kids wanted to do a all day practice session on Saturday. Well, by the afternoon they were all burned out and I called it off early. Note: We had been have 1 2-hour practice session a week prior to this.
Hope this helps out and I am sure there are plenty of coaches in your area to help share best practices. If not, please contact me and I would be willing to assist you.
Coach Rozum - Message by: NCFIRST 09/14/2007 01:17:46 GMT
And there's my rookie year with a rookie team that insisted on dismantling the robot and all of its attachments behind each other's backs AND erasing each other's programs up until the week before the tournament. Somehow, though, all that 'wasted time' of rebuilding paid off - the final robot was quite robust and scored well over 200 consistently.
So I tend to not stress over what looks like play knowing that it is often through trial and error and experimentation that some of the best learning takes place.
Marie
Coach Ionic Pioneers, Hyper-Static Penguins and Terramatix - Message by: The Techno Team 46 09/14/2007 03:03:58 GMT
Last year (our rookie year), my kids could not start building their robot chassis. They just couldn't put the first 2 pieces together to get started. I agonized on how to get them going without "showing" them how to do it, because I was trying to be true to "the kids do the work" principle. I finally came up with a solution that I am actually very proud of.
I copied a picture out of a lego construction manual. Just a picture. Not a step by step building guide by any means. It was a simple 2-wheel RCX differential drive chassis with a castor wheel. And I told them to build it. However, since we were using the NXT, they could not just copy the picture piece for piece. They had to understand what was going on in the picture and adjust it to work with the NXT pieces.
They finally tweaked it into a rather robust design (except for the castor wheel, which was the bane of our existence, falling off in mid-round in tournament). This year, they are using the memory of the first year's robot to get their design started, and what they have come up with is fabulous.
It never ceases to astonish me. I have my own ideas of how to do the missions, and I have to really rein myself in when the ideas are flying, not to steer them in any one direction. But, you will be amazed at what these kids can come up with without the constraints of what "our experience" tells us cannot work.
Good luck to everyone. - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/14/2007 17:44:29 GMT
I'd suggest you break the team into small groups. Put only 2-3 kids on the base project. You really can't have more kids than that touching the robot anyway. If they don't know what to make for a base, start them off with a book design, the tri-bot or something.
That group will be the base group, their job is to make the base work for the rest of the team. I'm all for devision of labor, its more real world anyway.
Laura - Message by: Robot Rangers 10/03/2007 02:36:21 GMT
In over my head but treading water - okay - i read this stuff and think wow... i am sooo far behind - is this a possible undertaking... i had no knowledge of this program 3 weeks ago, however, now, i have gotten my parts and pieces and realize - oh gawd.. now what? I have my first meeting in 3 days... :-) Any sage advice as to what a good first agenda would be for a novice coach, mentor and team? i know the boys will rock at assembly - they are all avid lego users... that isn't what concerns me... guiding them through the process to make this the best for them... i would love to get started with some simple 1,2,3's of how the first few meetings should go.... thanks!
Rudy Oakes - Message by: The Eagles 10/03/2007 04:47:21 GMT
"I know the boys will rock at assembly" -- I wouldn't take that for granted. I was very surprised to find out how little my kids knew about sound construction techniques.
I'd start by explaining the research and robot components of FLL. Get them thinking about the research project early, or you won't have time to pull it together.
Have them build one of the models, like Oil Drilling. When it's done, attach it to the mat and discuss possible ways to solve it.
Start working on a robot chassis. The Tri-Bot is a good place to start. It takes a lot longer to build a robust robot chassis than you think, and it's hard to start solving the missions until you have a robot.
Have fun! Figure out how long the kids can focus before they need a break. When they start getting restless, send them out to play for 15 minutes.
Good luck! - Message by: Robot Rangers 10/03/2007 06:18:27 GMT
Thanks - i am going to be scrambling this week - to be ready for our first meeting - one of many to come...i appreciate the reality check... - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/03/2007 12:59:12 GMT
I would read the Coaches' Primer at www.fll-freak.com. It will give you a clue what you are up against.
My recomendations is to have a party and build the field models. This is a great time to bond as a team, talk about what the models do, and talk about quality control. The construction instructions are not suggestions. They are to be followed to the letter.
Then spend an hour or less time talking about strategy. What needs to move where and when to get a resonable score. Rank the missions as to difficulty. Rank the missions as to the complexity of a manipulator if needed.
Then but the field kit away and build a simple robot from online instructions. Something like the Tribot is a good starting place for the next phase. Use this robot to learn the basics of programming via a series of mini challenges as listed in the back of the Coaches' Primer.
Only then, can you drag the field kit back out and talk about strategy again. This time they will have a deeper apreciation of how complex programming can get. Pick a few missions you think are a slam dunk and discuss what the robot needs to look like to solve them.
Build the base robot. This will continously change over time and may even be completely changed. Now you can start writing software to solve missions.
Of course during this whole time you need to work on building teamwork and work on the research project!
-Skye - Message by: Robot Rangers 10/03/2007 18:34:27 GMT
Perfect, thanks for that insight - i think you hit on something i can do in the short time i have - and i will look to the primer for more info - Message by: zap4702 10/03/2007 19:26:04 GMT
Something else you should consider for your first meetings is how to set the tone for all the meetings to follow.
Spend a little time on Gracious Professionalism in each meeting, in some way (this year we brainstormed what that meant in the first meeting, and are spending a few minutes in each subsequent meeting discussing the finer points with examples from our meetings and past years).
Set the expectations for rules of behaviour during meetings (the kids have sometimes come up with our own code of conduct), and establish routines like arrival on time, set aside time for cleanup, determine how the homework will be communicated, etc.
There are lots of ways to do all these things, but I think it's key to start off early so the kids know what to expect and the meetings are productive from the outset.
Good luck,
Doreen, Coach
Team ZAP! - Message by: hotwired250 10/21/2007 02:27:24 GMT
Don't be surprised OR DISCOURAGED if you have one (or more) of those meetings where you feel like you don't exist. It will happen at least once, but if you let them get it out of their systems and pull something positive out of the meeting, usually by the next meeting they will come back to Earth and join you.
"I know the boys will rock at assembly"
Some rookies AND THEIR PARENTS stop at the word "LEGO". They DO NOT hear you say, "presentation, research, use your creativity and imagination to build....." When we first started to talk about building the robot for the missions this year, one of my new members asked, "where are the instructions?" However, when he's not doing the chicken dance or talking about super heros, he's really coming along quite well.
One BIG key word is PATIENCE. You HAVE to have it! These kids are having more fun than you will ever know just being a part of something and it makes them feel really important. When they complete their first mission successfully it will click with them why they are a part of the team and why they come to the meetings.
Also, if the "all play and no work" continues remind them of how many meetings you have left before competition and ask them if they had to do it "right now" would they be ready to go. That gets them thinking.
Good luck,
-Hot Wired - Message by: Robot Rangers 10/22/2007 16:51:52 GMT
We started late in the process - at the beginning of October, so we have had just 3 meetings. We discussed in general what the Lego Challenge was, and we walked throught the various parts, the research, the planning, the building, programming, the competition and the presentation, however, it did seem that when we discussed much of that , the team's eyes seemed to Glaze over - and all they heard was the build and program parts. Ah well.
We built the missions pieces, we built a rudimentry robot, we did some simplistic programming, ensure that all the kids had hands on leadership roles in all aspects of the process. So all that seems good.
Now, the big hole i can see is the research and presentation. It is difficult for me to judge at this point how much time / focus should be applied to that aspect of it , as we are seemingly so far behind.
I am hoping to get the kids in a position on the build / programming portion , to complete the programming and building of a robot that will complete about 1/2 of the missions... ( at least that is what our level of success will be measured by.)
I am hoping to also get them to work as a team to do a site survey at their school to analyze a new "green gymansium" to see how that was done, what they did , and perhaps what they can do better. I think that they could do their project report on that...
So that is the way we are running so far... do you think this is a path for success? Am i off base :-) ( tell me straight - i can take it :-)
thanks for the response... - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/22/2007 17:23:14 GMT
i do you think this is a path for success?
If one child learns one thing then you are on the path to success.
Are you on the path to winning the Champion's Award? Probably not. Top teams need lots of time (usualy a few years) to get the full idea of what is needed to be the top team in the area, state, or world.
Are you on the path to a good learning experience? Yes.
How much time should you spend on the research topic? Mathematicaly, you should spend 1/4 of your time on it. The Champion's Award is 25% robot score, 25% teamwork, %25 technical interview, and 25% research. I once coached a team that won the Champion's Award with a horrible table score of 120 out of 400. (Low score was due to dust on the mat). But we still came out on top because they rocked on their research, interviews, and teamwork.
At your stage, you need to decide where to invest your time. Most teams in your situation will invest the minimum amount of effort to get a simple presentation that they will not be embarassed about and spend the rest of the time on the robot, teamwork, and intervies.
My opinion. Your mileage may vary.
-Skye - Message by: The Eagles 10/22/2007 20:15:12 GMT
I'd like to add a little bit to the math. While each of the 4 elements counts 25%, some have sub categories which changes the math a bit in my mind.
Robot performance and teamwork are 25%. There are no sub categories. Therefore, if your team works together like a well-oiled machine and your robot scores 400 on the table, 50% of your overall grade is an A+. Conversely, if your kids act like the last two people in a game of musical chairs and your robot scores 0 on the table, 50% of your grade is an E.
The research and technical presentations are a bit different. To do well in research, you need good research, an innovative solution and a creative presentation. Theoretically, at least, you could win the creative presentation award without having done any research. To do well in technical, you need both good robot design and programming.
Where do you focus your resources? For a first year team, I would make sure the kids have spent some time with all aspects of FLL. I think they will get a lot more out of it than if they spend all their time on the robot.
What I do is to look at where they are every week and help them focus on bringing up their "worst" area. It may not win them any trophies, but hopefully it will make them a solid team. - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 10/26/2007 02:55:03 GMT
I also think it's helpful to identify your team's natural areas of strength and use the momentum of those strengths to carry your team through the harder areas. For example, I had a team that had trouble focusing, but had a great sense of humor. They used it to their advantage by having their research presentation include off-the wall humorous commentary. The project started out as their least favorite part of the challenge and became their most favorite part by the end of the season.
Yolande - Message by: Robot Rangers 10/22/2007 17:31:55 GMT
Good advice...
We have NO vision of being a top team this year, the boys are looking at this quite realistically - " we will figure this out this year and kick butt next year".. that came from one of my 9 year old...
Thanks for your response, it is nice to know that I am not alone doing all this , and me be lost and confused is "okay"... it happens.
thanks again....
I'm not sure this is the correct place to be posting this but it's the only forum that mentions coaches.
We had our 3rd meeting today and it was a disaster. We spent the first two building models and talking about the missions. Today we talked through mission strategy which was great. We then moved onto building a prototype robot base. This is were things went bad.
The kids focused on everything except the task at hand, they were building cranes, grappling hooks, claws, but not a robot base. I fairly quickly determined that the issue was they were overwhelmed by the task and didn't know how to proceed. So I tried to give them leading questions like, "how many wheels should the robot have?" and they would answer but still were unable to proceed. I tried giving them hints but to no avail. I didn't tell how to proceed because I know I'm supposed to let them figure it out for themselves but they were unable to do so. I tried showing them other robot designs from both past missions and from several NXT books I have but they were still paralyzed.
So anybody have any suggestions? Since this is a prototype should I walk them through it, since I know they will eventually tear it apart and build their own and this will give them ideas?
Thanks
-- Craig
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/13/2007 15:27:51 GMT
WizKids,
Its like herding cats!
I can only assume you are a rookie team. In that case, I might suggest that you do not have them build a robot base from scratch. Have them build a few models found in the NXTG help files, in books, or on the web. I think your right in that they have no clue what to make.
Telling them what to do the first few meetings is not an ethical problem. Just like a teacher can't expect the class to suddenly learn long division, you can't expect the kids to learn building and programming out of the blue. You must teach them. My solution is to pack away the mat and field pieces and teach skills. This prevents me from giving specific answers to the year's challenge. I make up mini challenges that are similar but nor identical to the challenge missions. Things like drive forward past a line, stop, then back up.
Once they build their first model, have them try a few simple experiments. Drive straight, turn right, turn left, drive backwards. Perhaps even attempt one of the simpler bulldozer missions (push something out and drive back to base). Take some notes or even video tape it in action. Now take it apart and build a different model and rerun the same tests.
How do all the robots compare? Are some too fast or slow? Are some to large or small? Are some difficult to turn? Do some not drive very straight? Are some harder to add manipulators to?
Now you have a list of the good bad and the ugly. Use the list to morph the best of the samples into something that is workable for your team.
My first year team did not have a working base till just a few weeks before their tournament. We spent all our time learning to build and to program a generic robot. Once those skills are in place, solving the simple to medium missions is 'trivial'.
-Skye - Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/13/2007 15:29:48 GMT
You might want to consider having your team build a standard robot (like Tribot) from instructions as a starting point. That way the team can start programming it quickly and start to recognize the weaknesses of that design. Once they better understand how to put that first robot together and see it in action it may help them come up with ideas on how to enhance the design - or even scrap it for one of their own.
Larry Langellier - Message by: tanrobotics 09/14/2007 21:10:41 GMT
I would also have them look at videos of other teams robots from the past competition. Have them actually try to clone one of the simpler robots they can find in the competition videos. This way they know that the robot worked correctly in a competition before (gives them confidence), and they can start to add/modify the design at that point.
Paul Tan. - Message by: hotwired250 09/17/2007 08:05:21 GMT
I came to the forum with a question but after reading some of the posts I think you have already answered most of my questions. So, THANKS TO ALL!
However, I do have this one dilema. My team is wide spread in age range and more so in maturity. Most of them are really into everything and understand what's going on. I have a rookie 10 year old on the team that doesn't have a clue about anything that's going on. When I went over the mission points I asked him (trying to keep his attention and include him in discussion because he's always wondering around doing his own things), "If you get 10 points for barrels in base, but only 5 points for barrels at the power plant, where do you think we need to take the barrels?" He said, "power plant," basically because he was looking me straight in the eye but not listening to a word I said. That's frustrating not only to a coach, but also the rest of the team.
After reading some of the posts I think I can probably pair him up with someone and find him things to do to keep him somewhat productive, or at least ween him into the program, but it scares me that the rest of the team is working so hard and he may blow their chance because he doesn't listen to my instructions. You know how there are supposed to be two people at the table during competition and the rest of the team behind the line? He would most likely be the one to cross over and start playing with the table models while the robot is in play because he "forgot" he was told not to do that.
I can rely on the rest of the team (even the 9yr old that is a veteran from last year) to do what they are asked and feel comfortable knowing that they will stay together during a field trip or competition where there might be a crowd. This one, I feel like I may lose him if I lose sight or let go of his hand.
I don't want to exclude anyone, but I feel like a babysitter on Thursday afternoons while the other nine of my children romp around. I thought about asking his mother if she could stay for the meetings, but she likes to talk a lot and has a 7 yr old that I also have to "watch" while she's picking up the team member.
His mother says that he looks forward to the meetings, but I'm not so sure that he really understands what he's here for because everytime I ask him any question at all, about anything, his answer is, "I don't know." As far as I know he has no restraints keeping him from proper behavior, and he doesn't seem like a problem child. He is, however, extremely immature for his age.
Any suggestions?
-Hot Wired - Message by: NCFIRST 09/18/2007 00:58:25 GMT
I would hang in there with the kid, if at all possible. Find out if he likes to sort and organize. Is he good at finding parts? Can he build 100 variations of the wave turbine for the team to choose from? I have had high-functioning autistic and aspergers kids in the past and they are challenging in a team situation! But...what they and their peers learn and bring back in future years is invaluable. My most challenging team from last year split into two and now has returning students mentoring rookies. It's kinda scary to hear my words coming from their mouths! But it reminds me of the power of our example and our enthusiasm to our teams.
Marie
Coach Ionic Pioneers, Hyper-Static Penguins and Terramatix - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/17/2007 12:56:03 GMT
I have had students like this in the past. It is very difficult to deal with. On one level, you just want to wash your hands of the situation and send the kid packing. But on another level you realize that sometime during the season something might click or at the least they will learn something.
My best suggestion is to watch the kid and see what sparks their interest. Perhaps asking the mother for input in this regard. When you do find something, make it this kids responsibility.
-Skye - Message by: crazybots1334 09/17/2007 13:14:57 GMT
Sounds like a standard group of middle schoolers - especially if they are boys. To maintain some sembleance of order, I structure my meetings with small goals to be achieved for each meeting that do not exceed 2 hours. The kids are broken into small teams to achieve different tasks. As a pack they reach fusion quickly. It takes some planning but allows you to move the project parts in parallel and as a whole. We have a programming team, building team and a research presentation team. It also allows you to balance the team in terms of interests, skills, and manage kids who are friends that might be disruptive. - Message by: FloridaModirator 09/17/2007 23:34:35 GMT
In the past we have had a couple of kids with similar behavior problems to what you describe. One in particular would not work with anyone an would not participate in anything. He'd go off and build a something while the rest of the kids were trying to work.
Our teams have always had the rule that "no one works alone" and we have the 3 strikes rule. Between the 2 rules he was up for getting kicked off the team. I ended up taking the parents aside and telling them they had a week to come up with a plan for the kid to become part of the team or he would have to go. They made some changes at home and the kids told them he really wanted to be on the team. The parents had to explain to him the need to work with the other team members. He was never an "A" player, but he was a good solid "B" player. He made it for a year with the team and his parents were very happy with the changes in their son.
Its not 100% up to you to make every kid an "A" player, the parents have to help in some cases.
Laura
Does it make much difference which NXT set you buy, the educational version or the at Target? Any recommendations of one versus the other?
- Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/16/2007 04:00:31 GMT
You can see a decent comparison at http://www.bnxt.com/blog/2006/03/guide-to-choosing-retail-nxt-or.html.
Keep in mind that the FLL set is a combination of the Education Base set + Education Resource set + the software. The rechargeable battery and charger that you get with the Educational Base set is a major plus.
Larry Langellier - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/16/2007 04:02:52 GMT
They are different. Each kits has a different assortment of parts. They also have a slightly different version of the software. A commercial version would be adequate for FLL. It would also be adequate as a second or third kit to allow a larger team to have several robots to work and practice with.
The FLL robot kit also comes with a recharable battery and charger. The retail does not. What I do not remember is if they have a different number of sensors. I think they might, but can't remember off hand.
-Skye
I hope this is the correct location for this message. I am both the rookie coach and rookie mentor for a Rookie team and will only be able to meet once a week. our team can only meet once a week for a couple of hours. i realize that this is way too little time to do this justice, but that is what we have. I am planning on just focusing on a few of the missions and the project part and basically trying to keep the focus on the kids having a fun learning environment. I would love to hear any suggestions others may have for someone in my position. Thanks in advance
Matt
- Message by: FLL-Freak 09/17/2007 13:01:56 GMT
FLL can be done in as little as 45 minutes a week to as much as 40. What the kids get out of it is what you put in with your enthusiasm. Just do not expect to do well at the competition tables against high time invested teams.
Have the kids pick a research project they can work on at home without a whole lot of coordination. Perhaps have them use something like FaceBook to coordinate this task. Spend your team meetings on a few missions they want to work on and a few paractices of the final research project.
Just make sure you get to a tournament. Regardless of your teams ability, they will love it.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/17/2007 18:05:32 GMT
And make sure you do the research project. Some teams short on time decide to concentrate only on the robot game and drop the research project. My feeling is that those teams are missing out on half the fun and most of the learning experience. For my team the project was the highlight of last season and a big reason they are so excited about FLL this season. - Message by: Brightonbots1536 09/17/2007 22:11:04 GMT
We are a rookie team (9 & 10 yrs-old) as well and we will be meeting with two other rookie teams at the same location. The kids decided on the "divide and conquer" technique for the robot missions and we will be doing a lot of the research and project work as homework. That is all we can do because we don't have the time or the facility available to us for that many hours a week. We do plan on doubling up on mission time (on a Saturday) as we get closer to the qualifying tournament.
This will be a learning year for all of us.
You won't believe what our kids do for pretzels and Lego gummies! - Message by: under pressure 1131 09/18/2007 00:24:50 GMT
We were a rookie team last year and I have to agree with Skye that a huge part of the fun and excitment and the place where we learned the most was at our regional tournament. The kids learned more on competition day than they did during all the extra practices we scrambled to arrange just before the tournament.
Michelina
Coach Under Pressure
North Bay, ON - Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 10/03/2007 16:33:25 GMT
I am veteran coach and that is how much time we meet each week too. The biggest way to ease the time constraint is to give the kids homework assignments for the research. It only takes me about 10 minutes to write up a homework assignment in word. I just ask things like what is energy star, list 3 ways to reduce heating costs, etc..... Make sure they site the places they got the information from in their homework.
Collect the homework and place it into a binder they can take into competition with them. Make sure to let the parents know they have this homework and you can be sure it will get done then ;)
I have been doing this since the Fall season began. We just visited our local library this past Monday to do an energy audit and in 1 hour the kids all ready had solutions to many of the problems. Now really all they have to do is put the information into a presentation for the judges.
The biggest thing is to not try and do to much. Make sure to set the expectation with your kids that its not about getting all the missions done its about how well you do the missions you have. Just keep it fun and light hearted.
Sorry for writing a whole book ;) Let me know if I can help in anyway. Carla ;)
Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team - Message by: AwesomePlastic 10/10/2007 01:34:57 GMT
We are brand new an are into the Mission aspect at this moment, would you go onto the project or programming next for those seasoned coaches, need guidance? - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/10/2007 12:54:40 GMT
Is this a question or a statement? Hard to tell!
Assuming its a question, I would suggest that a team work on all aspects of the challenge pretty much in parallel. For a first year team, the first month is likely spent learning building and programming skills and doing research for the project. The rest of the time would be devoted to accomplishing missions.
But all teams are different. Your mileage will vary.
-Skye - Message by: 11/20/2007 21:59:38 GMT
Deleted
I am a new rookie coach and have 35 children interested in participating on one of three rookie teams. We cannot afford to register a 4th team, so we decided to divide up all of the children so that all of the kids could participate. Our first meeting is Thursday 9/20 (yes, that is late but that is the best we could do).
Anyway, I would like suggestions on how the team should determine who will participate in the qualifying tournament. We have 9 and 10 year-olds on each team. Should we do it by age? Do you typically see attrition throughout the season? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Jennifer
Brightonbots
- Message by: SurryTigers4159 09/18/2007 20:54:47 GMT
I feel your pain. I'm a GT teacher at a small school, and we do FLL as part of our program, but also open it to kids who may have the interest but aren't necessarily "GT". When I had kids sign up who were interested, we had 29 students, and only funds for one team. It was SO hard. I think the only thing that really helped for us was that there were more kids who didn't get on the team than who did! - Message by: darthpanthers2465 09/19/2007 05:15:38 GMT
I've also had this problem the past 2 years with 2 different teams (both inter-city schools). The 1st year we had 1 team with 20 kids. We told the kids up front that only 10 would compete in the tournament, but all were a part of the team. During the practice sessions it was obvious who the 10 were. They were the ones who camew to practice to work vice play. At the end of the season, we created certificates and ribbons and recognized all 20 members at a school assembly.
The 2nd year (differne school) we had 50 kids apply for 1 team, so we decided to hold tryouts. Tryouts were based on problem-solving activities. Based on results of tryouts, and the intereset level of the parents, we were able to identify our 10. Getting parents involved was key as we did not want to be a babysitting service.
Good luck in your adventure
Rich Berglund
Coach
RoboWildcats 2005
Darth Panthers 2.10 2006-present - Message by: immanchargers1607 05/05/2008 18:42:28 GMT
What types of activites did you use for the tryouts. We are going to tryouts this year, as least year there was 1 coach, 20 kids -- and some were definately there for babysitting. - Message by: darthpanthers2465 05/06/2008 14:09:45 GMT
The types of activities we used for tryouts well basic problem solving tasks. Got them off internet (i.e. build something out of spaghetti and marshmallows). We split the kids into small groups (3-4 random selection). We made sure each group had a boy, girl, dirrerent race, different outspokeness. Our Judges/Referees then watched the groups and noted how the different kids work as team members. The groups rotated between tasks. Completing the task was not as important as how kids interacted. When then took all that info and selected the 10 who make up the team and started challenge from there. Its very hard to try and hold practices with more than 10 and then select the top 10 at tournament time.
Hope this helps.
Rich Berglund
Darth Panthers 2.10 - Message by: legoguards482 09/20/2007 17:58:05 GMT
One of the local Junior High Schools has solved this in a different way. They have a competitive team and a robotics club. The two are related, but not the same. (Dave Parker - RoboWarriors789 - is the coach for both and he's on this board - see the spreadsheet he created in this same forum area). You might want to contact him directly for the logistics. Last year I understand that he had about 90 kids in the club (split into three groups by grade level) and 10 kids in two teams.
It's a good thing to have this problem!
Alan LeVezu
Coach
Lego Guards - Message by: lightsavers2634 09/25/2007 00:48:12 GMT
I would suggest first asking each kid individually if they really want to participate. I have had experience with fellow teammates who did not even want to be there. (Naturally their parents wanted them to come.) If any of the kids don't come voluntarily, you should talk to their parents and explain that their child won't benefit the team as much as a kid who is enthusiastic enough to even pay from their own allowance to be allowed to participate.
-David
The following is a short [edited] essay written by Jim Kelly (http://www.thenxtstep.com and http://www.cafepress.com/thenxtstep) and posted on The NXT Step blog titled "Some thoughts on FLL bot Design."
You can read the original post here along with the comments which are also very interesting to read:
http://thenxtstep.blogspot.com/2007/01/some-thoughts-on-fll-bot-design.html
The blog also has an ongoing review of each of the FLL missions with commentary and opinions on difficulty level. They've posted 4 mission reviews so far.
-----
Yesterday, I was able to closely observe 24 teams present their FLL robots to my team of 4 technical judges. During each team's presentation, we were asking questions about their building and programming solutions as well as questioning them on their logical/tactical reasoning and teamwork as it applies to coming up with a robot to compete. During all of my observations and questioning, I kept a list of those things that I thought would be of interest to readers and/or other FLL competitors. These are in no particular order:
1. A noticeable lack of using sensors - I would estimate that 75% of the robots I saw did NOT use sensors, other than the built-in rotation sensor on NXT bots and encoding/rotation sensors on RCX bots. The Light sensor was the most frequently used with the Touch sensor coming in 2nd... what I found interesting was that most of the bots programs were pretty much 90% or more MOVE blocks and all movement was based on table positioning and lining up the robots (either using jigs or aiming visually).
2. Aiming - as mentioned earlier, most robots (probably 80% or more) were aimed using a visual point-and-aim method. Interestingly, when asked about the lack of consistency in test runs and competition runs, most teams admitted that their aim was off and very few indicated that using a jig was an option (or other fixed/sturdy object useful for placing the bot in the exact same spot every time).
3. Confusion over turning rates - many of the teams indicated that they switched to "rotation" movements instead of degrees because they couldn't figure out why their robots would be programmed to turn 90 degrees but would typically only turn 40-50 degrees. This told me that there's still not a good understanding (either by students or teachers/coaches) of how a wheel-circumference turn and a motor rotation are not 1:1. Most teams that answered this question about their design seemed to think that programming one wheel to turn 90 degrees in a forward direction and another wheel to turn 90 degrees in a reverse direction would result in the robot spinning in place 90 degrees and were surprised when this wasn't the case- TEACHERS/COACHES PLEASE LISTEN: it is VERY important for students to learn to program using degrees. Using time isn't a good option because it is so easily affected by battery power and rotational movement programming is okay, but it's probably debatable if the accuracy is the same as with using degrees.
4. Teamwork - one of my questions that I liked to ask was this: "If I were to pick one of the team members at random and ask him/her to run the robot on every challenge, would that person be able to do so?" - I was basically trying to find out how many of the team members were cross-trained - many of the teams consisted of individuals who ONLY knew about the physical robot, some ONLY knew about the research portion, and others ONLY focused on the programming. While this is probably typical considering time constraints and interest amongst students, I cannot imagine that any team will benefit from not knowing a little of every aspect of the competition. It's just my opinion, but I think that any student participating in the FLL challenge should have an opportunity to contribute to robot design, robot programming, and the research portion. We all tend to focus on our strengths, but coaches and teachers need to encourage those students who might tend
- Message by: NCFIRST 09/27/2007 03:05:06 GMT
--TEACHERS/COACHES PLEASE LISTEN: it is VERY important for students to learn to program using degrees. Using time isn't a good option because it is so easily affected by battery power and rotational movement programming is okay, but it's probably debatable if the accuracy is the same as with using degrees.--
I'm listening! And I would be very grateful if someone could explain this to me, a non-tech coach, in layman's terms. Thanks in advance.
Marie
coach Ionic Pioneers, Hyper-Static Penguins and Terramatix - Message by: FLL-Freak 09/27/2007 04:22:32 GMT
Lets say you buy an electric car. When it was new, the battery was nice and zippy. You notice that on your way to work, if you floor the car, its takes you exactly ten seconds to get there. So after a while, you stop looking out the window and simply stomp on the 'gas' and wait 10 seconds then slam on the brakes. Since you don't have to drive, you can spend that extra time drinking your coffee.
But one day, you notice that you are not in the same spot you normaly arrived at. You are in fact a few feet farther from your destination. What's up with that you wonder? Well at lunch your geek friend (ok, not really a friend but just the guy you sometimes have lunch with) reminds you that your car's battery is no longer taking on as good a charge. Your car does not have as much voltage "umph" and hence you are not going as far in those ten seconds.
So its back to having to look out the window on the way to work. What a bummer.
For the most part the point is that you do not want to use time but distance to navigate. Their are notable exceptions and you will stumble into those as your team matures.
-Skye - Message by:0222520A 09/27/2007 09:20:05 GMT
Marie,
The best reason to not use time (Duration in Seconds) when trying to make your robot travel a specific distance is that it doesn't make any sense. Seconds are a unit of time, not distance. You use a clock to measure time and a ruler to measure distance. You wouldn't use a ruler to measure time would you? It is just as silly to use a clock to measure distance.
To demonstrate that seconds are a lousy unit for measuring distance, have your team run a foot race. For this race kid #1 is to run as fast as he/she can. Kid #2 is to walk. Kid #3 is to hop on one foot. Kid #4 is to run backwards. Let the kids race for 10 seconds and have them stop. Point out that even though they all raced for the same amount of time, the distance they traveled varied greatly. Variations in the robot from run to run, like changes in battery power, friction or weight, cause differences in the distance traveled. Just like running or hopping or walking cause differences in the distance traveled during the race.
So why aren't there duration choices of inches or millimeters? Surprisingly, the answer is once again that specifying a Move duration in inches doesn't make any sense. The sensor inside the motor measures angular displacement, how much the motor turns. Until you attach the motor to the wheels of the robot there is no relationship between the amount the motor spins, and the distance the motor travels.
Things change once the motor becomes part of a robot. Now motor rotation causes the wheels to rotate (hopefully), and that makes the robot move (again, hopefully). The really nice thing is that the distance traveled is repeatable and predictable. Repeatable means that if I do 100 tests where I make the motor rotate 1 revolution, the robot will move the same distance (give or take a tiny amount) each time. Predictable means that you can predict the amount of motor rotations required to move the robot some distance.
A lot of teams are satisfied with having something that is repeatable. They make heavy use of the NXT's View capability to measure the duration for Move blocks. These numbers are then fine tuned through experimentation.
More advanced teams make use of the fact that the Move duration is predictable. They measure how far the robot travels for a specified number of rotations or degrees and use this information to predict how many rotations or degrees are required to travel a different distance. Tell the robot to Move 1000 degrees and measure the distance traveled (called Distance 1 below). Use this equation to calculate degrees duration for a different distance (Distance 2):
Degrees duration = 1000 x Distance 2 / Distance 1
FLL is a great chance to show kids that mathematics has practical uses. Last year I taught my team about fractions, decimal numbers, and negative numbers. They learned about Pi and the relationship between diameter and circumference. We used the Pythagorean theorem for right triangles to figure out spacing for gears and bracing. We even touched a bit on algebra. Taking advantage of this opportunity is perhaps the best thing you could do as a coach. Find a mentor if you aren't comfortable with math, and listen in on the meeting. You might be suprised to learn that math isn't so scary.
Dean Hystad - Message by: NCFIRST 09/28/2007 03:49:40 GMT
Thanks, Skye and Dean. I get a bowl-ful of lime jello in the face for not asking my question more clearly. Although, I think both of your answers will help me in convincing some of my team members that using rotations really and truly is better and easier than time (but Marie, it's just so much faster to make a guess and do it with the clock icon - why on earth would I want to measure anything, huh? sigh)
My question is actually buried in the earlier part of the paragraph - the bit about using degrees to turn vs rotations in order to get more accurate turns from the bot. And, if it makes any difference, we use Robolab, so knowing how to do and explain this idea within Robolab would be most helpful.
Marie
eating lime jello while driving her car and not looking out the window..... - Message by:0222520A 09/28/2007 16:00:11 GMT
The Confusion over turning rates is not about degrees vs rotations. It is about why there is a difference between motor degrees and the resulting change in robot heading. If I set the Move duration of 90 degrees and the steering all the way to the right, why doesn't the robot make a 90 degree right turn? This is a source of confusion and frustration. Why doesn't degrees equal degrees???
So some teams change to using rotations instead of degrees. They are aren't as confused about using a duration of 0.75 rotations to make a 90 degree turn because rotations aren't degrees. But these teams are missing out on some very important robot kinematics understanding.
When you turn a differential drive robot (most common type of robot in FLL) the wheels move in circular arcs. The distance that each wheel travels, and the distance the wheels are apart (the track) determine how much the robot will turn. When computing duration for a turn you need to calculate how far each wheel will travel, then convert that to motor degrees.
Let's take the simplest case; a pivot turn. In a pivot turn the left and right wheels turn at the same speed, but in opposite direction. This results in the robot pivoting about a point midway between the two wheels. The wheels follow a circular path centered around the pivot point. The diameter of the circle is equal to the robot's track. For a full 360 degree turn the each wheel travels a distance equal to the circumference of this circle.
How do I compute duration for a 360 degree turn?
First you need to measure the wheel diameter and the robot track. For most LEGO tires the diameter is printed on the sidewall.
Robot wheel diameter = 50mm (approx 2")
Robot track = 150mm (approx 6")
Distance traveled by wheels during 360 degree turn
= Circumference of circle with a 150mm diameter
= 150 x Pi
Motor duration in rotations
= Travel distance / Wheel circumference
= (150 x Pi) / (50 x Pi)
= 3
Motor duration in degrees
= 360 degrees/rotation x Number of rotations
= 1080 degrees
For this robot the motor needs to turn 3 degrees for each degree of robot heading change. The motor duration for a 90 degree turn is 270 degrees. A 10 degree turn has a move duration of 30 degrees.
Did you notice that the ratio of motor duration degrees to robot heading degrees is the same as the ratio of the robot track to the wheel diameter (3:1)? This makes it very easy to calculate a turning conversion factor for any differential drive robot. Here are the numbers for the robot my team used last year:
Robot Track = 114mm
Wheel Diameter = 81.6mm
Heading degrees to Motor degrees conversion factor
= Robot Track / Wheel Diameter
= 114mm / 81.6mm
= 1.397
A clever team will write a MyBlock or SubVI that does the conversion automatically. That way they can specify turns using robot heading degrees.
Dean Hystad - Message by:0222520A 09/28/2007 18:11:32 GMT
One thing I forgot to mention is that things change a little bit if you have gears between the motor and the wheels. You have to take the gear ration into account. Also, if you are using the RCX, you need to take into account the lower resolution (less counts per rotation) of the rotation sensor.
Two years ago I coached two teams using the RCX. One of the teams built a robot with a 186mm track and 49.6mm wheels. They had an 8 tooth gear attached to the motor, and a 24 tooth gear on the wheel shaft. At that time we were allowed only 1 rotation sensor, so the robot turned by spinning one wheel while the other wheel was stationary. The robot pivoted about the stationary wheel. The rotation sensor was mounted so it measured the rotation of the motor shaft. The rotation sensor had a resolution of 16 counts/rev instead of the 360 counts/rev for the NXT motors.
Gear Ratio
= Motor turns / Wheel turns
= Wheel gear size / Motor gear size
= 24/8
= 3, or more commonly 3:1
Turning Circle Circumference
= 2 x Wheel track x Pi
= 2 x 186 x Pi
= 372 Pi
Motor rotations for 360 degree robot heading change
= Turning Circle Circumference / Wheel Circumference x Gear Ratio
= 372 Pi / 49.6 Pi x 3
= 22.5 rotations
Rotation Sensor Counts for 360 degree robot heading change
= Rotations for 360 heading change x 16
= 22.5 x 16
= 360 counts
Conversion factor to convert robot heading degrees to rotation sensor counts
= 360 counts / 360 degrees
= 1 count/degree
Obviously this worked out pretty well for them. But it was no happy accident. The team knew how to convert turning degrees to rotation sensor counts and designed the robot with this knowledge. Needless to say, the design and programming judges were impressed.
Dean Hystad - Message by: NCFIRST 09/28/2007 20:22:54 GMT
Thanks sooooo much Dean! This is tremendously helpful and will now allow me to better answer some of the teams' questions. I have a couple of kids who are loving the math part of robot programming and this will make their day. Thanks for the clear explanations and examples.
Marie
coach of Ionic Pioneers, Hyper-Static Penguins and Terramatix - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/30/2007 14:22:22 GMT
Just don't forget, you may have to tweak it a little to account for slippage. If you start up a wheel at top speed, it will slip more before the robot moves than if you start at a slower speed.
And all the best calculations in the world can't overcome the fact that this is a toy, not a piece of precision machinery.
However, having the team know how to do the calculations as if it were precise is a very valuable learning exercise. And will save untold amounts of time while you are "guessing" the number of rotations it will take to do your turn.
- Gary - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/27/2007 14:39:48 GMT
> Teamwork - one of my questions that I liked to ask was this: "If I were to pick one of the team members at random and ask him/her to run the robot on every challenge, would that person be able to do so?"
I'm not sure this is a valid expectation. Specialization of roles doesn't imply that there is no teamwork. Everyone should know a little of something - you do need a backup if a driver comes down with the flu on competition day - but not everyone has to know everything.
One of the strengths of FLL, and all FIRST programs, is that kids with varying interests and abilities can all participate in some way. Just because one child has no interest in learning programming doesn't mean he can't provide valuable input to the research presentation. It's still all part of the team, as long as no individual is going off and working alone.
One thing that team members should be able to do is answer the question, "If I pointed to a doo-hicky on your robot, could you tell me what it does?" Even if you didn't build the attachment, didn't program it, and don't run that mission at the table, you should know what it is and why you did it that way.
- Gary - Message by: WomenInBlack3513 09/27/2007 19:18:56 GMT
Jim Kelly responds:
-----
Hi, Gary,
You are absolutely correct - in a real-world business or research organization, no one would be expected to be able to cross-perform. It's just too difficult.
My question was meant to focus on the operation of the robot and its performance in the challenge. I still believe that team members should work together to ensure that every member of the team can run the challenge. This serves 2 purposes: (1) backup in case one or more team members are absent, sick, etc - how bad would it be for half the team to miss a flight or be delayed in traffic and all the work on the robot (building, programming and project) suffer because the person who knows which programs to select and run for each mission isn't there? and (2) skill sharing - programmers should gain a little understanding from the building team and vice-versa. At the minimum, team members should be able to explain in very simple terms how their robot works, structurally and programmatically.
I think we're agreeing on the same thing and my wording in my initial statement was probably TOO aggressive. The key is that the kids have fun, learn something that they might not already know, and be able to communicate with others with different skills.
Jim Kelly
----- - Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/27/2007 22:03:35 GMT
Yes, I think we're on the same wavelength. I didn't want teams, especially new teams, to get the idea that everyone had to be able to drive every mission.
One good example of teamwork is where the kids "tag-team" to run the different missions at the table. Every mission has a primary operator, and should have backups in case of sickness, absence, etc.
Another way of dividing up the task are to have pairs of drivers run the robot for all missions; each team drives for one of the practice and/or competition rounds.
Some teams have tryouts and choose their best drive team who will operate the robot in all the rounds.
It all depends on what the team wants to do. Any team organization is fine, as long as all the team members have input and all take part in learning.
- Gary - Message by:0222520A 09/28/2007 18:51:33 GMT
On my teams everyone plays every role. Good programming requires an intimate knowledge of the robot, and a good robot should take into account any programming limitations. The same goes for mission planning. You cannot plan a mission without understanding the capabilities of the robot. And you shouldn't build a robot without taking into account the requirements of the missions.
During the development process the robot, programs and mission are continuously being re-evaluated. A clever solution for a problem in one of the missions may be adapted to work for others. Slowly the number of attachments drops as the base robot platform gains functionality, and the attachments become more flexible. Last year my team started out with 8 changeovers in the base and ended with three. The team was able to shave off about 40 seconds from their time.
Some teams break into research and robot groups. I use "break" intentionally, because I believe these teams are broken, damaged. My best builder is also really good when it comes to writing an informative and entertaining presentation. My best researcher is also one of my best mission planners. My best programmer writes really good dialog, and is a pretty good artist. I have a few weak readers on the team, but they made important contributions to the research project, and their reading has improved. Some of these talents may not have been discovered had I divided them up to only work on pieces of the challenge. The kids in FLL are 8-15 years old. They know only a tiny portion of what they like and what they are good at. We should be helping them find new skills and new passions.
So I think Jim's teamwork question is a good one. You can have good teamwork with a bunch of specialists. But you will have better teamwork when each member has a gut level understanding of what their other teammates bring to the table. How can you appreciate someone's contribution if you don't understand it?
Dean Hystad
Has anyone had problems viewing the Project DVD? I am able to view it on one of three computers we are using. On one nothing happens when DVD is inserted, on the other I am getting a strange message to reduce resolution. I've changed resolution to every setting there is, but to no avail.
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/10/2007 12:49:57 GMT
Can you watch other DVDs on those computers?
Can you watch the DVD on a console player?
-Skye - Message by: Robophantoms2471 10/11/2007 02:22:22 GMT
I can watch other DVDs on the two computers in question, but I am not able to watch the DVD on a regular DVD console player. I was able to watch the FLL Project DVD on my desktop at home with Windows Media player, but I am getting the resolution message when trying to use my laptop with the same version of Media player. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/11/2007 12:52:34 GMT
Sounds like you may have a bad disk. I would call Pitsco and ask for a replacement.
-Skye
I am a rookie coach and have two rookie FLL teams this year.
One team seems to be progressing with the programming of the robot and have started set some goals for the research project. The kids (10 of them) are trying to work as a team -- sometimes there are lapses but, they are trying. There are several members who do not want to be part of the programming of the robot - they want to build. They do watch the robot trial runs and have all discussed the strategy; however, there is one nice little boy who has really not done anything (except build parts of the field kit)for the last five weeks. I have tried to get him interested/involved in other areas but, he seems content and insistent that he perform the role of a 'communicator' -- carrying messages back and forth between team members. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get him more involved?
The other team is in worse shape. They have nine kids on this team and only one seems to be doing the programming. Most of the others insist that they are builders, one kid behaves like a 'school monitor' and one kid is completely unntrollable. This last child has not done a single thing for five weeks. He builds items out of LEGOs that have nothing to do with the robot/field kit, rolls around on chairs and runs around the school library. I have spoken with him many times and his father in detail on one occassion. He is a distraction to the team and the other team since the meetings are held in the same location at the same time -- just on different sides of the library. Any thoughts on what to do here?
There is no school advisor -- no teacher would step up. A parent occassionally stays for a meeting but, does not help with the team behavior. And, the high school Robotics Team mentors that were supposed to assist at each meeting showed up one time and sat around talking with each other -- one high school student has shown up alone several times but, ....
Help........
I cannot ask any child to leave the team
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 15:10:26 GMT
My heart goes out to you.
In previous years there has always been a discussion thread like this one. A coach starts tearing out hair and wonders what they go into. If you have time, you might want to go back to the archives and dig up some of that great advice.
First, take a deep breath. Realize that what you are providing is better than nothing. If even just one of the kids learns something, you have succeeded.
Second, look at the problem kids and figure out what they CAN do. I had a team once with a student that simply loved to put wheels on axles and spin them like a top. Had I let him, he would have done this all season. So I found things for him to do. I had a ton of LEGO, so I challenged him to build the tallest LEGO creation he could (about 8 feet). That keep him busy for quite some time. Did that advance the team's goal? No, but it did get him to learn something and it keep him out of the hair of others.
Your "communicator" might be well suited to take pictures of the team and keep a journal of events. Just solved a mission? Take a group photo! Realized that the attachement will not work? Take a picture of it before you tear it apart. A picture archive of your failures can be just as important to a tech judge as your successes.
In the case of the student that rolls around, perhaps he has difficulty concentrating on fine tasks. Perhaps the team needs a physical stunt to show team work. Let him select and orchestrate something. Or perhaps get him going on a team banner or other pit decorations.
I am sorry to hear about your high school mentors. They often can be a life savor helping kids with technical stuff while you can address the behaviour problems. Perhaps they just needed some direction as to what to do?
When you say you can't ask a person to leave the team, do you mean you can't or you can't bring yourself to casting out a member? Sometimes even if it just breaks your heart you have to drop a student.
-Skye - Message by: MechanicalMonsters1929 10/12/2007 16:46:44 GMT
Thanks for the reply. I will look through the archive material.
With regards to the last question -- I really can't bring myself to cast out a member -- I would feel terrible. - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 16:54:52 GMT
Tough love is exactly that!
Its probably too late now, but next time have the kids sign a contract with you like the one you can find in the Coaches' Primer at www.fll-freak.com. This sets the stage for your expectations as to student and parent behaviors. You then can then provide a few warnings before you give them the heave and nobody will be surprised.
-Skye - Message by: PowerStackers 10/12/2007 17:26:41 GMT
This's exactly what I do. At the first meeting, I have each student read out and initial each item in the contract/promise and then sign and date. And also I have the parents read and sign the contract at the bottom.
I have one copy and the student has one copy putting at the begining of his/her binder. Keep reminding them of our promise.
We also have our sponsoring organization's behaviour form to sign.
PowerStackers Coach
Power - Message by: MechanicalMonsters1929 10/12/2007 17:03:10 GMT
They did sign a student contract -- one child (the one proving to be the distraction) informed me that not all items in the contract would be adhered to -- I was dumbfounded.
His dad is out of town so, I will need to wait until he gets back (end of next week).
Thanks again -- I appreciate it.
Cathy - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 17:24:31 GMT
Cathy,
I am assuming you are a volunteer and not a payed employee. If that is the case, I would not put up with a kid saying he would not adhere to all bullets on this contract. Sounds like he has been reading too much about the lives of politicians and entertainment personalities.
A contract is a contract. Sure they are only kids and they need wiggle room, but if his behaviour is negatively effecting the rest of the team and you have not found a way to integrate him into the team, then its time to put the contract into effect. One solution is simply to inform the parent(s) that the child is on probation and that as such a parent or other adult will need to accompany him to all future meetings. This may not work if the parent is uncarring, but its a good first step before you show him the door.
-Skye - Message by: MechanicalMonsters1929 10/12/2007 17:45:53 GMT
Skye:
Yes, I am a volunteer. I do plan on letting his dad know that he will need to stay for the meetings if the child intends to continue with the team.
Thanks for all the advice - I really needed to hear it!
Cathy - Message by: hoffman1702 10/12/2007 18:00:17 GMT
Cathy,
I have a similar situation with a team of nine kids (can't imagine 2 teams!). Two of the kids are ADD, one also aspergers. I had conversations with both parents and explained the situation. I was advised to keep the team smaller, but didn't want to drop any kids (and these were the 2 I didn't know as well and probably would have dropped). I didn't want to drop anyone either, as they all participated in the summer work that we did. Also, these kids were the older more experienced (and very bright) kids. They had a lot to offer the team, IF they disciplined themselves.
The upshot is that the parents are attending the meetings, but if they weren't involved, I would put the kids in time out (older or not) by my side until they were able to play nice.
The bottom line for us is that the kids are learning. Doing the tournament will hopefully motivate them for next year, but either way, we got a lot out of this year.
Cynthia - Message by: Robotik8 10/16/2007 22:48:34 GMT
Cathy,
Let me get this straight ... you have 19 kids by yourself in the school library? Bless your heart ...
I would have a mandatory parent meeting and explain that folks are going to have to step up and give you some support. For safety reasons alone, I don't think it's a good idea for you to be the only adult with all these kids. Often, schools won't allow this type of activity in the building after hours unless a staff person is present. I'm surprised that no one from the school is involved. Have a volunteer roster and ask that at least two parents work with you during each meeting. You can't just provide a free drop-off service for all these kids.
As for the kid who won't follow all the parts of the contract ... that is unacceptable. The dad needs to make sure the kid is on task and the kid needs to buy in to all aspects of the contract. Otherwise, I would explain that he is not getting anything out of the activity, his behavior is problematic and he can't be on the team. I know you don't want to hurt any feelings. However, is it fair to all the kids who are there to work when someone is causing this much disruption?
If there is one high school kid who shows up regularly, he might just need some direction. Maybe you could ask him to work with a small group on building a prototype for an attachment. Or ask him to guide the research process and help kids look up info on alternative energy. Let him know exactly what you need him to do.
Hang in there and keep us posted.
Muriel - Message by: MindstormTroopers1928 10/19/2007 20:14:13 GMT
Thanks to all who have responded to this post.
I have tried several of the suggestions and thought things were improving; however, the kids went back to their original behavior by the next meeting (yesterday). I have now requested that an adult associated with each student needs to be present at the meetings to observe, help out and control (if necessary) their child.
I will see what happens on Tuesday.
Still hoping for the best!
Cathy - Message by: hotwired250 10/21/2007 03:03:55 GMT
Good luck Cathy! That's a tough situation, especially when you want all team members to participate in all activities at one point in time. If you do have some older students that are able to lead a small group, perhaps you could divide them to have different tasks, and even though you might feel like you are neglecting your team if you could spend a little time one-on-one to get him interested in a particular area maybe that will work. If he's in charge of something besides his "outgoing" attitude maybe he'll concentrate on his new job.
I had a similar situation at the beginning of the season. First I tried to have small tasks ready for those that needed to stay occupied. Then I finally told them that even though we are a team we might not ALL be going to the competition, that it depends on their behavior and how well they have participated in each area. I told them that it isn't fair for those who work hard and want to do well so if they want to compete they had better be on top of what's going on in the meetings.
In a positive note, you know what to do next year. :) - Message by: RachelCarson 10/31/2007 02:24:52 GMT
I really identify with your dilemma. Although this is my fourth year coaching, each year I have had a real challenge child with very little parental assistance. You need to remember that it is the experience of the adventure that the kids will remember. Often the kids that are the worse behaved are the ones that need this the most.
One thing I would do different is to discuss with the parent early in the season of the difficulty keeping their child on task during the meeting. I have in the past asked the specific parents to assist at several of the meetings. I have gone so far as to make it a requirement for the child to continue on the team. Although it may appear the child resists this, in fact, the parent and child often turn in to adding greatly to the group.
Good luck! - Message by: bears299 10/31/2007 02:42:10 GMT
My school district has a policy that students must have satisfactory behavior and passing grades on their report card to participate in extracurricular activities. This is my fifth year in FLL, and for the first time I have had to drop a student from the team for unsatisfactory behavior grades on the first nine weeks report card. This student was also having problems with behavior during team meetings to the point that we were losing the "team" part of our team. I know that you don't want to remove a child from the team, but you might want to check on your school's policies to see if the child is even eligible to be on the team.
Linda - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 10/31/2007 03:49:44 GMT
Cathy, it sounds like you're doing a great job -- bless your heart! Are there any nearby events (scrimmages or tournaments) that your team could attend as spectators? Sometimes seeing the impressive work of others will motivate the kids to buckle down. I would recommend that you also bring as many parents along as possible -- some parents have little appreciation for how hard coaching is until they see it up close.
Every time I have brought kids to an event, either as spectators or participants, they have come back with more ideas and motivation than they started with. Even doing poorly at a tournament isn't all bad -- they realize what they could have done and improve next time around.
Yolande - Message by: MindstormTroopers1928 11/14/2007 05:12:21 GMT
Folks,
Once again, thanks for all the support.
The two teams have one meeting left this week before their competition on Saturday, the 17th.
One team is doing great! I am quite pleased and happy for them. They have completed, the research project, the skit and many missions. Tonight they had timed trials and learned alot. The big item was that mistakes' happen and they aren't all bad. Some work to your advantage and others can be recovered. They learned how to deal with mishaps, when a robot rescue is necessary, when/why a trade off of a robot rescue would be good to give another developer's program a chance to run, etc.... They were working nicely as a team. They are looking forward to more trial runs on Thursday.
The other team still has issues. They have not completed their report -- several team members were still trying to change the topic during the last meeting. Tonight they finally all agreed to do the last selected' topic. A skit was written, still no report, and practiced. Lots of yelling and running around (literally) during it. One (maybe two) missions go back to base. The other missions do not and he have yet to complete all parts of a single mission (they bring the truck to the farm but, not the car to the house). They may try the trial runs next meeting - not sure.
Just a long-winded updated.
Catty - Message by: ECA Hawks 11/15/2007 15:46:48 GMT
Our team missed the competition last Saturday (11-10-07). The kids this year have been a nightmare. Out of the ten kids only 1.5 have/had any serious desire to do anything. We had 15 1.5 hour meetings before the competition to get prepared. They had no project presentation and zero missions completed.
I pretty much handed them everything in writing needed to complete everything. In fact, I handed out the packets 3 times. They also watched the DVD's twice and looked at several of the online videos.
At this point getting another team next will be next to impossible. I don't think the school will let this happen again considering it's school funded/sponsored.
Jon. - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/16/2007 18:32:11 GMT
Jon,
I'm so sorry things didn't work out. If the kids aren't motivated, there's only so much you can do.
I have to say that this year's challenge was not conducive to captivating marginally motivated teams. I had a second year coach telling me, "They loved last year, but this year, the same kids didn't want to do anything." Basically, they felt that both the robot challenge and especially the project were too far out of their reach.
Would it be helpful/possible to work off-season with the 1.5 motivated kids and present them with the "just for the fun of it challenge" of doing as many tasks as possible, with no pressure for competition, and no project? Also, since you're not going to compete formally, it might inspire them if you actually built/programmed a mission or 2 for them so they can see how it's done. Sometimes, "follow this example" helps to get them off and rolling. If you can get some interest going in the off-season, you might be able to salvage next year. Off season is often a good time to discover who is there for the pure love of LEGO, since there is usually no formal contract to be there.
I am seeking permission to post an announcement I got yesterday from a team that is organizing a "fantasy fun FLL tournament" with online submissions. It sounds like a fun, low-pressure way to be involved in an informal event. Will get back when I hear something.
Yolande - Message by: MindstormTroopers1928 11/18/2007 06:21:50 GMT
Me again.
Well, the tournament is over.
The 'behind the eight ball' team was able to score some points - with a maximum of 120. They did not fair too well in the teamwork, research or technical judging. The comment cards from the judges were right on the target. In 12 minutes or less, the judges saw their lack of respect for one another. The kids still thought they had a chance of winning something - right up until the last award was given out. I felt bad. They should feel good about making it to the competition and completing all the portions of the challenge but, they are kids and the disappointment will linger for a time.
My other team was a surprise and not a surprise. They did better in the robot performance competition. 205 as their max score -- lower than their trial runs and were 6th place overall. Their comment cards from the judges were also on target. The points they identified were the same ones that I pointed out to them. They definitely came together as a team and the judges recognized this -- they won the Teamwork Award! Big surprise of the day.
It's not yet over for them (or me) -- state championship coming up.
Cathy - Message by:0222520A 11/19/2007 00:07:34 GMT
Hopefully the 'eight ball' team learned a valuable lesson. We do our children no favor when we shield them from failure. My first year as a coach had my teams finishing last and second to last. Exactly where they deserved to be. That disappointment lasted all of 10 minutes. While packing up for the day some of the kids asked when the "fun robot class" was going to happen again. Six of those kids (out of 19) are still in FLL, and more would be if we could find the coaches. One of the kids went to state last year and almost won a tropy for research quality.
Over the past few years I have been giving out prizes to forum members that have posted exceptional messages. Some have been humourous "MAV Launcher Performance" and others technical.
This year I am looking for technical excelence. Posts that share information with other coaches that examplifies Gracious Professionalism. Prizes include a Bluetooth adapter, recharable battery, light sensors, and other cool Over the past few years I have been giving out prizes to forum members that have posted exceptional messages. Some have been humorous (The Great Wall of Mars) and others technical.
This year I am looking for technical excellence. Posts that share information with other coaches that exemplifies Gracious Professionalism. Prizes include a Bluetooth adapter, rechargeable battery, light sensors, and other cool things.
I will be monitoring all the posts (except for JFLL) in the USA area for possible winners. If you think I have missed a qualifying entry, please contact me off forum at skye@fll-freak.com.
-Skye
- Message by: FLL-Freak 10/16/2007 16:26:21 GMT
The first prize goes to John Greer for this series of posts:
"NXT Data Hubs"
John elected to take the "Axle Heaven" package. This included several hundred axles and axle connectors for making robot attachements.
-Skye - Message by: FLL-Freak 10/16/2007 16:29:15 GMT
The next prize goes to Dean Hystad for any number of posts including:
"straight line -- frustration"
"Programming with multiple LIGHT sensors"
Congratulations!
Dean, Please contact me offline (Skye@fll-freak.com) to pick your prize.
-Skye - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 16:56:22 GMT
The third prize goes to Brian Davis for a series of excelent technical posts. These include:
"Transfer NXT Program from one computer to another"
"Insane object error when creating a my block"
"NXT Problem with programs"
"sensor calibrating"
...
In fact all of his posts contain a treasure trove of technical information.
-Skye - Message by: FLL-Freak 11/21/2007 04:37:58 GMT
The fourth prize goes to Stephen of Team4287 for the following posts and others:
"Ultra Sonic Sensor- Help?"
"Our robot has a wiggle. Is it the motors?"
-Skye - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/06/2007 04:48:03 GMT
The fifth prize goes to Scott McBride of team Oxford Energy for the great post on version control.
oxfordenergy0234 "Program version control?" 11/19/07 7:10pm
-Skye
This forum has been invaluable to me as a rookie coach of 10, 9 & 10-year-olds. Our first Qualifier is Saturday and my biggest worry is keeping the kids together and reasonably entertained between Presentations and rounds. It is a long day and there is quite a bit of down time in between coaches meetings, etc.
I have 4 girls and 6 boys on our team and I wondered if I should pack small car games, my son's gameboy or DS, a deck of cards? I already feel like a pack mule with all of the robotic stuff. My kids are good kids, but they are young and will get tired quickly. I do plan on having a bag full of healthy high-protein snacks in my arsenal. They do have to bring their own lunch.
I will have a total of 4 adults there (including myself)to watch over the children. I am so stressed about this event that I know my blood sugar will be all over the map all day. The tournament starts at 8:00am and ends at 4:00pm.
Do any of you have some survival strategies for Tournament Day?
Jennifer
Brightonbots
Rochester, NY
- Message by: FLL-Freak 11/15/2007 03:44:53 GMT
Jennifer,
Be mellow, life is good.
On the surface a tournament looks like it could get fairly booring. You only get three rounds, a team work interview, a tech interview, and your project. What else is going to occupy your time? Pratice rounds, talking to other teams, getting ready for each interview, watching performance rounds, finding lunch, looking for lost parts, and a gazzilion other things.
By all means bring a few things to do, but do not be surprised if you never use them. On the other hand, parents should be warned if they bring siblings that they will want lots of things to do.
-Skye - Message by: zap4702 11/15/2007 03:55:04 GMT
Here are a few thoughts off the top of my head:
Tell all the adults to take Tylenol at the beginning of the day (and no, I'm not kidding - tournaments are loud and crazy).
Take bottled water for everyone, and write names on the bottles with permanent marker to stash at your pit table.
Assign one adult to keeping track of the schedule for the day and getting you and the kids everywhere on time - when and where are your interviews, practice times on the table, run times, etc.
Assign another adult to be responsible for your pit table so you can leave your extra lego, robot stuff, and laptop there and not worry about it.
If you've still got another adult helper, then get them to travel with you and the team to photograph and videotape the interviews, robot runs, and the kids having fun.
When you get your schedule in the morning, try to find the useful blocks of time so you can plan to go over the project presentation one last time, grab a snack and do a washroom run, watch as many of the other robot runs as possible, and take a tour through the pit area to meet other teams and see what they have put up for their displays. Pencil these into your master schedule, but remember to be flexible.
Prep your kids to stick together - they should travel as a team, and they should always have a buddy if they are going on bathroom breaks without an adult.
Try to meet another team to befriend, and cheer for each other during the robot games, ask how their interviews went, etc.
I'd steer away from electronic games because they will suck the kids' attention away from the tournament. Maybe the other activities would work for your kids - mine have always wanted to be watching other stuff as it happens throughout the day.
I'm sure there's lots more, but that's what I can think of off the top of my head.
Above all, have fun!
Doreen, Coach
Team ZAP! - Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/15/2007 07:37:47 GMT
One way to encourage your team's interaction with other teams is to have a fun give-away souvenir from your team. One cheap, quick souvenir is a small sheet (1/2 or 1/4) with your team's favorite joke(s) or sayings and well-wishes with your team name and number. I recommend giving away 1 or 2 per team, not one per kid, to avoid excess waste paper on the floor for the tournament staff to clean up. There are plenty of other fun things to share, but acquiring them in 2 days may not be a priority.
If you don't have a team banner yet (or even if you do), a posterboard or tri-fold cardboard for them to doodle on will keep them close to home (if they're the doodling kind). If you have a digital camera with photo printer, you could have them take pictures and make a collage with commentary as they experience various things through the day.
But really, I doubt that they'll have time to do all that. The day disappears into a blur when all is said and done.
Yolande - Message by:01475A1F 11/15/2007 14:08:07 GMT
I have been to 3 tournaments with teams now. I have never found down time to do anything other than what has been mentioned in previous posts. As a matter of fact, I have found that I am running on adrenaline all day long and there didn't seem to be enough time to even breathe between matches and practice rounds, yet alone go to the bathroom. I have always hoped there would be time to go talk with other teams but it never seems to really happen. It may be due to the fact that our tournament usually gets up to 6 rounds at the table and our presentations run through lunch. I agree that siblings need something to do but team members easily can be distracted by games and things and then it is too hard to get them to focus on what they are really there for.
Good luck, remember to enjoy it even though it can be chaotic, and have your significant other ready with a glass of wine for you at the end of the day! - Message by: The Eagles 11/15/2007 18:21:25 GMT
I'd add two things to these posts:
1. Ear plugs for the adults (easier on your body than tylenol)
2. Watch your kids for signs of fatigue. It can be a pretty stressful day for the kids (whether or not things go well). Last year, we had one child who really needed half an hour of quiet time by lunch. - Message by: Brightonbots1536 11/15/2007 19:39:21 GMT
What great suggestions!
I have already added earplugs and Tylenol to my "things to bring" list. They are up there with batteries. (So is the big glass of Shiraz that my husband has to have ready for me at home after the tournament is over.)
We will be at an elementary school and if the weather isn't too bad (this is Rochester, NY so it could be snowing) I might take the kids outside to run off some of the anxiety.
I really don't know what to expect from the kids because I have never seen them under pressure before for such a prolonged period of time. We practiced our Project Presentation yesterday in front of the building facilities managers (the employees for the audited building) and the kids were like "deer in the headlights". My team are extremely outgoing kids that have been reciting their data back and forth to one another for weeks, and it took me totally by surprise. I hope that was just Opening Night Jitters, and that they will relax for the real thing. - Message by: HutchTigerBots2007 12/05/2007 00:01:51 GMT
Can anyone give me a definite rundown of what we should bring with us besides the robot? Do we need our buildings and missions? Our Practice board? Do we need a laptop computer?
Any help is greatly appreciated. - Message by: FLL-Freak 12/05/2007 00:32:33 GMT
The UFAQ has a good section on what to bring. Find it here:
http://www.fll-freak.com/faq/index.htm
-Skye - Message by: bears299 12/05/2007 01:25:37 GMT
Also, scissors, glue, and tape (for repairs to the research project props), and band-aids and kleenax tissues (for repairs to the team).
Linda - Message by: Brightonbots1536 12/05/2007 01:17:22 GMT
Another addition to the list (Q 7.18 in Skye's link) is make sure you have a checklist of all parts that are necessary for your robot to be equipped with for every mission. Parts like robot arms that will be added in base just for one mission, or containers that will be used to put oil barrels in, or the platforms for the trees, etc.
We learned the hard way at our Qualifier that we needed this list. You need to check it often because the kids want to take the robot to a practice table to refine their missions, and if you are not careful, they leave parts of the robot all over the place. We got up for our third round and the robot arm was missing, this we didn't notice until the second to last mission. The kids were resourceful and used one of their existing programs to complete a mission that we didn't have time to do prior. This whole process of ad libbing completely amazed me, but having the robot arm would have been nice too.
I copied all of the missions onto a USB thumbdrive and it was good that I did because the laptop we ended up bringing only had one of the missions on it! It is incredible how even though you have worked these missions hundreds of times with your team that come tournament time, something completely flookie happens and your kids need to refine the program. Also, the kids might talk out an issue with another team during the pit time and figure out