2007 FIRST LEGO League Forum Archive
Home
Index

---

   BENELUX
   BRAZIL
   CANADA
   CHILE
   DEUTSCHLAND
   Feedback
       FIRST Feedback
       Forum Feedback
       LEGO Feedback
   FRANCE
   ISRAEL
   JAPAN
   KOREA
   Make International Contacts
   MEXICO
   PERU
   SCANDINAVIA
   SINGAPORE
   SOUTH AFRICA
   SPAIN
   TAIWAN
   TURKEY
   UNITED KINGDOM
   UNITED STATES
       FLL Coaches Handbook - pdf available for downloading (Read Only)
       FLL Equipment Discussions
           Battery Questions
           Equipment Marketplace
           LEGO Building Questions
           Motor Questions
           NXT Specific Questions
           RCX Specific Questions
           Table Construction
           Table Setup
       FLL Gracious Professionalism
       FLL Marketing, Fundraising and PR
       FLL Miscellaneous
       FLL Programming Discussions
           General Programming Questions
           Miscellaneous Programming Questions
           NXT) NXT-G Questions
           NXT) Robolab Questions
           RCX) Robolab Questions
           RCX) Robotic Invention System (RIS) Questions
       FLL Regional Information
           Alabama
           Alaska
           Arizona
           Arkansas
           California
           Colorado
           Connecticut
           Delaware
           Florida
           Georgia
           Hawaii
           Homeschool
           Idaho
           Illinois
           Indiana
           Iowa
           Kansas
           Kentucky
           Louisiana
           Maine
           Maryland
           Massachusetts
           Michigan
           Minnesota
           Mississippi
           Missouri
           Montana
           Nebraska
           Nevada
           New Hampshire
           New Jersey
           New Mexico
           New York
           North Carolina
           North Dakota
           Ohio
           Oklahoma
           Oregon
           Pennsylvania
           Rhode Island
           South Carolina
           South Dakota
           Tennessee
           Texas
           Utah
           Vermont
           Virginia
           Washington
           Washington D.C.
           West Virigina
           Wisconsin
           Wyoming
       FLL Research Discussions
       FLL Resources - For Coaches, by Coaches
       FLL Rules and Mission Discussions
           Coal Mining
           Corn Harvest and Processing
           General Questions
           Grid Connection
           Hydro-Dam
           Oil Barrels
           Oil Drilling
           Parking Lot
           Personal Vehicle Choice
           Power Plant Supply
           Roof Solar Panel
           Rules Questions
           Solar Power Satellite
           Strategy Questions
           Tree Planting
           Uranium Mining
           Wave Turbine
           Wind Turbines
       FLL Team Mentoring
       FLL Tournament Directors' Forum
       JFLL FORUM DISCUSSIONS
           Building and Technical Discussions
           Events
           Feedback
           JFLL 2007 Challenge (Read Only)
           JFLL Coaches' Guide (Read Only)
           JFLL Event Guide and Awards (Read Only)
           Locate other teams
           Miscellaneous
           Research Discussions & Tips
           Team-related Discussions & Tips
       World Festival

---

Folder: BENELUX 12/19/2007 21:22:49 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:12:49 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

Discussion: Team introductie By: icNRG 2340 12/19/2007 17:39:49 GMT
Hier kunnen teams zich voorstellen

1. Message by: 08/18/2007 16:59:21 GMT
   Deleted



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 08/18/2007 17:03:09 GMT
   icNRG teamnummer 2340 is een First Lego league team uit Eindhoven.
   
   Team icNRG heeft een bijzondere geschiedenis. Alle teamleden zijn voormalige RISbotics. Voor het geval dat u dit niet weet, RISbotics was zeer succesvol in de NANOQuest competitie van vorig jaar. The RISbotics is een FLL team van de RIS. RIS = Regionale Internationale School in Eindhoven. Het is een basis school, dat is dan ook precies de reden van het ontstaan van team icNRG.
   
   4 RISbotics leden verlieten de RIS om naar het middelbaar onderwijs te gaan. Dat betekende dat ze niet door konden gaan als een team.
   Ook is Coach R (Rita van der Lee) gestopt als leerkracht op de RIS. De teamleden zitten op 4 verschillende scholen en komen uit 5 verschillende landen.
   
   Deze dingen gecombineerd hebben er toe geleid dat we besloten hebben om een VRIENDEN team op te richten zodat we allemaal door konden met de FLL!
   
   icNRG is geboren!
   
   kijk op onze website www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by: KW-7-2381 09/20/2007 12:52:13 GMT
   KW-7 teamnummer 2381 is een First Lego League team uit Den Haag.
   
   Ons team bestaat uit kinderen uit de groepen 7 en 8 van OBS De Kleine Wereld in Den Haag. Dit is het eerste jaar dat onze school deel neemt aan de League. Voor de coach (Garmt Meulendijks) en de kinderen is het dus extra spannend, aangezien de Challenge van dit jaar er erg pittig uit ziet.
   
   Op dit moment zijn we al druk met de voorbereidingen bezig en heeft iedereen er veel zin in. We hopen met nog meer teams in contact te komen om ervaringen uit te wisselen, tot nu toe is het bij "spieken" gebleven.



1. Message by: 11/17/2007 01:32:39 GMT
   Deleted



2. Message by: legocrusaders3730 11/17/2007 01:47:47 GMT
   Hello, team number 2381! We are the Lego Crusaders from Eugene, Oregon, team number 3730! We are also in our first year of participation in the First Lego League. Our members are in grades 6, 7, and 8 at Kennedy Middle School. We have enjoyed designing our robots, sharing information with other teams, and working on the programming of the robots.
   
   Our coach is a former resident of Den Haag, Nancy Vrijmoet. She sends greetings to these young citizens of Holland, and wishes to hear from you as you progress toward completion of the Challenge!
   
   Our qualifying tournament will take place December 16 in the university town of Corvallis, Oregon. We are excited to represent our school and take part for the first time in the competition.
   
   Write back with your news when possible! In Dutch or English, it makes no matter, but possibly both languages so our students can best appreciate our parallel experiences!
   
   Dank u wel!



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 18:33:26 GMT
   Hi Legocrusaders,
   
   Greetings from Holland. We have our competition december 1st. You can read our news and other stuff on our bi-lingual website.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



3. Message by: 11/05/2007 20:33:28 GMT
   Deleted



4. Message by: Waddinxveen02 11/05/2007 20:35:40 GMT
   Ik ben van het FLL team Theo Thijssen uit Waddinxveen.
   
   We hebben steeds dat de robot niet recht rijd en dat komt volgens mij omdat de 2 motoren niet gelijk lopen.
   Weet jullie daar een oplossing voor?
   Misschien de motoren synchroniseren, maar kan daar niets over vinden.
   
   We maken gebruik van Robolab 2.9, maar wel de eenvoudigste manier (pilot) van programmeren.
   
   Ik hoop dat jullie ons verder kunnen helpen



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/05/2007 23:48:39 GMT
   Hallo Harry,
   
   Leuk om eens een NL team op het forum te zien!
   Allright, 1e vraag rijden jullie met RCX of met NXT?
   laat even weten dan kan ik je misschien in de richting helpen.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



5. Message by: Waddinxveen02 11/07/2007 19:25:22 GMT
   Beste Coach D
   We rijden met een NXT, hoop dat je me kan helpen.
   
   Heb ik meteen nog een vraag.
   Volgens mij moet je ook meer missies achetr elkaar in de NXT kunnen zetten, die je een voor een start.
   We doen het nu door de missies acher elkaar te programeren met een stop tussen de missies. Gaat naar de volgende missie als we op een gemonteerde drukknop drukken.
   Heeft het nadeel dat je niet kan kiezen welke je start en kan ook geen missies herhalen.
   
   Je merkt misschien wel dat we niet zo ver zijn nog, maar hoop dat je me kan helpen.
   
   Straks weer op school, voor het vervolg.
   (We doen 30 november mee in Gouda)
   
   Groet Harry



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/09/2007 11:02:54 GMT
   Hi Harry,
   
   We zijn op een enkel avontuur na niet erg bekend met de NXT, wel met Robolab 2.9. Wij doen al even mee en blijven werken met de RCX, omdat we die bezitten en omdat we die goed genoeg vinden.
   
   Om je op weg te helpen kijk maar eens in de link verzameling van een van de meest deskundige FLL / mindstorms autoriteit Skye Sweeney:
   
   http://www.fll-freak.com/nxt/nxt_index.htm
   
   Wij werken met R 2.9 op level 4 en hebben geen idee van het door jullie gebruikte level met name of het alle mogelijkheden van Robolab wel gebruikt (containers etc)
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



6. Message by: Watt 12/19/2007 17:39:49 GMT
   Hallo!
   
   Leuk dat het Nederlandse forum dit jaar ook is wordt gebruikt :P
   We willen alle teams die naar de Benelux finale gaan HEEL veel succes toewensen!!
   Wij van Watt hebben al 4 jaar ervaring! als jullie vragen hebben kunnen jullie die gerust stellen! We beantwoorden ze graag!
   Stuur een mailtje naar bommel201@hotmail.com
   
   Watt een groetjes!!!
   Robert
   PR management WATT
   
   alvast een fijne kerst en een wattastisch nieuwjaar!



7. Message by: GMT
   

Discussion: Plezier & Succes By: icNRG 2340 11/29/2007 22:55:50 GMT
Hallo FLL teams van Nederland, de Regionale competities komen er aan. Iedereen veel succes en ontzettend veel plezier toegewenst van het team icNRG uit Eindhoven.

FLL-team 2340 icNRG * I see ENERGY !
Bezoek onze website: http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Finale By: Herta-Robotics 12/11/2007 10:14:28 GMT

1. Message by: Herta-Robotics 12/11/2007 02:11:28 GMT
   Beste nederlandse en belgse final-teams,
   wij zijn het enigste duitse team dat aan de FLL-Benelux meedoet. In het afgelopen jaar hebben we dat eerste keer aan de Benelux-wedstrijd meegedan en hadden het final gehaald. Dit jaar is het weer so ver. In Oldenzaal hebben wij ons gekwalificeerd voor het finale.
   Wij wensen alle teams een geweldig mooie, sportieve finalwedstrijd.
   Groetjes
   de Herta-Mechanics



1. Message by: Herta-Robotics 12/11/2007 02:13:38 GMT
   Onze Homepage: www.herta-robotics.de.tl



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/11/2007 10:14:11 GMT
   wij hebben een link gemaakt naar jullie pagina en vinden het leuk wanneer jullie ook linken naar onze website.
   
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/11/2007 10:12:56 GMT
   We zien jullie in Enschede, veel succes en plezier!
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Supersnel wisselen By: Watt 12/16/2007 22:09:45 GMT
Hallo allemaal,

Wij (team Watt, Den Haag) bouwen nu al voor het 4e jaar robots voor de FLL. De laatste twee jaar bouwen wij onze robots op een bijzondere manier, namelijk volgens het MOT-systeem.
MOT is een modulair systeem dat twee jaar geleden door heel veel oefenen en experimenteren door ons is bedacht.
Inmiddels zijn er ook andere teams die het gebruiken en krijgen wij er ZO veel vragen over dat we het hele systeem voor iedereen beschikbaar willen maken. Alle gegevens zijn te vinden op onze website http://www.watt-lego.tk/
Wij zullen ons best doen alle vragen te beantwoorden.

Groetjes
Watt

Discussion: Prettige Kerstdagen en een gelukkig Nieuwjaar By: icNRG 2340 12/19/2007 21:22:49 GMT
en...
ontzettend veel plezier en succes op de Benelux finale

Watt do I see ?

I see ENERGY !

de kerst kaart is bijgevoegd

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/19/2007 21:22:49 GMT
   de Kerstkaart is nu hier!

---

Folder: BRAZIL 08/17/2007 17:06:53 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:06:53 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

---

Folder: CANADA 01/08/2008 09:08:25 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:06:07 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

Discussion: Equipment By: mcsl2007 09/03/2007 22:49:32 GMT
Parts discussions

1. Message by: mcsl2007 08/18/2007 18:23:59 GMT
   Team #568, our parts arrived 8/15.
   
   Two points:
   1) shorted one technic pin joiner round (Peeron 75535)
   2) possible build instructions flaw in attaching the front bumper to the truck - probably requires two additional 1x2 plates with 1 stud (Peeron 3794)



1. Message by: 09/03/2007 22:42:50 GMT
   Deleted

Discussion: WARNING: Personal Choice vehicle mission is missing By: tanrobotics 10/17/2007 18:41:10 GMT
The "Personal Choice vehicle" mission is missing from the Canadian version of the Missions:

http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=30810
(International > Canada > 2007 Challeng > Missions)

vs the US version

http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=29600

***NOTE*** this bad page is ONLY visible if you click on the Missions Link on the LEFT Nav bar. If you click on the Missions Link under the Robot Game in the main text area, it brings you to the correct mission list. However, if you click on the left nav bar version under the Canada site, you get an incomplete Mission list.

Paul Tan.

1. Message by: zap4702 09/15/2007 16:00:18 GMT
   Similarly, the Q&A is not the most recent update, if you click on the left nav bar in the Canada site.
   
   Generally, I always enter the Challenge pages using the United States site - that way I know for sure I am getting to the most recent, and most accurate, pages.
   
   Doreen,
   Team ZAP!
   
   PS, Hi Paul!



1. Message by: Weebots2811 09/26/2007 22:32:48 GMT
   Hi Paul and Doreen!
   
   This is Mike Street who attended the practice tournament that was held at the Children's Technology Workshop, with Errol, last year. I am the coach of the Markham Weebots, the team with just the 3 kids.
   
   Anyway...just thought I'd say 'hi'. It's nice to see some familiar Canadian voices out there!
   
   And yes....for all things FLL, one should only use the US site. Unfortunate, but true. :)
   
   --Mike



2. Message by: tanrobotics 09/26/2007 22:37:01 GMT
   Hi Mike and Doreen!
   
   Glad to hear from you guys! We should get together for coffee sometime to discuss this year's missions.
   
   Email me at paul@web2xml.com and let's co-ordinate a get together. Perhaps we could even see if any other local coaches want to get together for discussions.
   
   Paul Tan.



3. Message by: ctw miss oak 2155 10/04/2007 16:50:56 GMT
   He Paul & Mike:
   
   Great to hear you are hard at FL again this year. This year is more of a challenge than last. Error is not running FL this year Barb I is running a team with most of CT seaside and her Nano team members from last year.
   
   I ran Nanowoods 5351 last year for the first time out her in Mississauga. The kids had a blast. We completed at the Oakville Regional last year and have registered for the Nov 24 Mentor College tournament this year. Hope to better our 5th place showing as a rookie team last year.
   
   I would love to hook up for coffee and I am sure Barb V would also. My team meets Thursday nights and possible Sunday afternoons so not sure what times work.
   
   Is anyone thinking about a dry run practice in early November. I do not know where and how to allow 1st time kids get comfortable with FLL tournaments before the Nov 24 date.
   
   We will be struggling on the NXT programming side with loops, my blocks and multi layering with light, touch and rotation sensors. Some of the kids (from my icamp this summer) don't have a problem which is comforting since they are doing the programming.
   
   The other big issue I have is timelines and how much the Project seems to take and away from Rover design and programming. We are dividing roles and resposibilties but I can't see at this stage we will get it all done.
   
   Am available to share thoughts and meet (even during the week).
   
   Best of Luck.
   
   Murray Buckler
   Regional Director - CTW GTA West
   
   905-399-2267
   
   email: mbuckler@ctworkshop.net

Discussion: Bundling By: Ivy Bots 10/13/2007 00:11:13 GMT
If we want to put trees, oil barrels, coal and uranium in one bucket and push all of that to the factory, is that considered bundling. If this is allowed, can we also leave the bucket at the factory?

Are we allowed to push 2 objects that are unattached with the same arm to the same place?

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/30/2007 14:15:13 GMT
   You'll find more answers to questions like these in the US thread. Unfortunate, but that's how it goes.
   
   A bucket is a container. Containers are permissible. It is not bundling.
   
   Read the definition of "TO" in the Rules. It's different than "TOUCHING".
   
   - Gary

Discussion: Solar Power Satellite By: 922daredevils 10/10/2007 20:10:02 GMT
Page 12 Step 16 says build 2 identical cross beams to hook the elastics on. The side showing on the page goes on fine but not the other side. Is it me or do I need to move the elastic hook to another spot?

1. Message by: 922daredevils 09/28/2007 02:05:15 GMT
   yup - just me



1. Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/08/2007 00:41:02 GMT
   Yea I agree with him I made the solar powered satellite with a couple other guys and it worked just fine it's probably just you

Discussion: programming robot arm By: RoboRobbins1427 10/04/2007 16:56:02 GMT
How do we program the robot arm? We can not figure out which block will run this program. We've tried switching wires and various moves, but have not got this figured out. Help please! Thank you, RoboRobbinsRobotics

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/04/2007 15:08:00 GMT
   You might look at some of the programming discussions under the "United States" section of the forum.
   
   Programming for your arm will be similar to how you program the motors that run your wheels. The difference will be that you won't just turn the motor on and let it run - you will have to figure out how long to turn the motor on to raise or lower your arm. You can do that by timing or counting rotations.
   
   - Gary



1. Message by: RoboRobbins1427 10/04/2007 16:56:02 GMT
   Thanks Gary :)

Discussion: the house is hard By: ControlAltDelete 10/10/2007 21:18:40 GMT
im having a hard time building the house

1. Message by: ControlAltDelete 10/10/2007 20:03:10 GMT
   whats up



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/10/2007 21:18:40 GMT
   Just ask and we give advice. Have Fun!
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: do all objects have to be lego brand By: Pi6656 10/11/2007 22:22:42 GMT
if you use string does it have to be lego brand

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/11/2007 22:22:42 GMT
   Hi there,
   
   This is the simple answer; YES
   Rule 7 is very clear.
   
   7. Materials This rule is not just about the robot... This rule controls everything you bring from the pit area to the competition area including the robot, all attachments, and all strategic objects when viewed all at once as a package. All these objects must be made entirely of LEGO elements in original factory condition (except LEGO string and tubing may be cut to length), and must conform to the following quantity limits on electrical parts, no matter what you intend to use or connect or attach to the robot at any one time:
   
   For RCX users: For NXT users:
   RCX controller (1) NXT controller (1)
   motors (3) motors (3)
   touch sensors (2) touch sensors (2)
   light sensors (2) light sensors (2)
   lamp (1) lamp (1)
   rotation sensors (3) rotation sensors (3 minus the number of NXT motors present)
   3rd touch OR light sensor (1) ultrasonic sensor (1)
   
   LEGO wires and converter cables are allowed as needed. Spare/alternate electrical parts are allowed in the pit area. Objects functioning as remote controls are not allowed anywhere. There are no restrictions on the quantity or source of non-electric LEGO pieces. Wind-up/pull-back *motors* are allowed, and do not count as motors. Pneumatics are allowed. Marker may be used for owner identification in hidden areas only. Paint, tape, glue, oil, etc. are not allowed. Stickers are not allowed except LEGO stickers applied per LEGO instructions.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Problem By: Pi6656 11/15/2007 00:30:27 GMT
Is it considerd bundling if items cant move side to side but they can move up and down?

1. Message by: 922daredevils 10/13/2007 06:09:38 GMT
   It's my understanding that bundling isn't defined by how much movement there is. Basically you can't use string, twist ties or lego pieces (etc.) to connect objects together (except each tree may have it's own base piece attached to it). Reading the Q & A can clear up a lot of things.
   
   QA29 "Bundle" Clarification
   
   Q: Is ***touching each other while being simultaneously pushed*** considered ***bundling?***
   
   A: No. That's okay. Bundling involves binding things to each other with pressure, such as by tying or wrapping. Rule 14 prohibits this, along with actually connecting models, with or without the use of added pieces. Rule 27 also prohibits adding pieces to models, as would be needed to bundle or attach. The only way you're allowed to combine models is in simple contact, with or without a container.
   
   P.S. check out U.S. forum as well.



1. Message by: Pi6656 10/13/2007 23:44:56 GMT
   Thank you all a lot that clears up alot!!!=D



2. Message by: robot_rollers 11/12/2007 23:54:48 GMT
   We're having problems with programming. Our robot doesn't want to do much of what we program it to do. Any suggestions?



3. Message by: 922daredevils 11/13/2007 03:42:17 GMT
   It helps if you tell us if your programming is RCX or NXT. But either way my kids usually find they get into trouble trying to input the whole program at once. Things go much better when they program one step at a time.
   
   Each student is working on their own mission and we'll string the ones that work together before the tournament.
   
   If you have RCX you may need to add sensors to improve performance (e.g., rotation sensors, line followers).



1. Message by: robot_roller 11/14/2007 22:54:45 GMT
   Thanks for the advice. We are using the NXT. Further explanations would be greatly appreciated.



4. Message by: 922daredevils 11/15/2007 00:30:27 GMT
   what would you like it to do? Can you get the robot to go forward to the satellite and then back up?

Discussion: Wave Turbines By: Wave6109 11/27/2007 15:24:05 GMT

1. Message by: Wave6109 10/15/2007 21:46:12 GMT
   Hello?



1. Message by: Wave6109 10/15/2007 21:53:21 GMT
   I'm just wondering about the wave turbine mission ... we need to learn how it works ... so we can explain it to our team. If anyone knows it would be great!:)



2. Message by: 922daredevils 10/15/2007 22:37:38 GMT
   From what I've read - bring a model with at least 2 pieces on a hinge, swivel, etc. and move to ocean west of the light sandy beach area.
   
   Mission: Bring your own team-designed Wave Turbine (one per team) and move it TO the ocean directly west of the sandy beach. Your Wave Turbine model must consist of at least two pieces that move independently of each other. A scoring Wave Turbine is worth 25 points. A meaningful design is worth your time, but not worth points, and won*t be judged.
   
   Q: Can you please elaborate on "move independently of each other"?
   
   A: One or more parts move in a way that one or more other parts do not, even though they're all connected as part of the same model. Examples: A hinge, a wheel barrow, a bureau, a key chain. Any model that changes shape when manipulated. Any model that's not a continuous, solid object.



3. Message by: crazycreators252 10/16/2007 03:31:21 GMT
   In our research we have found a couple wave turbines. one looks just like an underwater wind mill. the curent in the ocean moves the blades and a generaator makes the electicity just like a wind mill only underwater. The other one looks like 2 long tubes floating on the top of the water. the waves make the tube move up and down. in the middle of the two tubes is a pump that pushes the water through a generator like a dam would push water thru a generator.
   
   Good luck
   Travis



4. Message by: Pi6656 10/16/2007 04:00:20 GMT
   Well its just a creation youve made that you push out to the ocean next to the sandy beach to score some extra points!=-)



5. Message by: Wave6109 10/16/2007 21:46:01 GMT
   Since we just have to build something that can be moved around easily and the desgin doesn't get judged this should be easy.. thanks!



6. Message by: solarsons1733 11/26/2007 21:20:59 GMT
   Are we allowed to use the robot as our wave turbine?



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/27/2007 15:24:05 GMT
   Yes. That is covered in QA61.
   
   - Gary

Discussion: Motors By: Pi6656 10/23/2007 09:22:58 GMT
Ok so I've been wondering if a mini motor counts as one of the 3 motors each robot is aloud because it is kinda small and useless!

1. Message by: 922daredevils 10/15/2007 22:33:19 GMT
   if it's electrical it counts



1. Message by: Pi6656 10/16/2007 03:58:33 GMT
   Dang that's really anoying.......=-( Anyway thanks -.-



2. Message by: solarsons1733 10/23/2007 01:17:16 GMT
   If you have more than three motors, but you are only using 3 ports, is that okay? If it isn't, can we bring a lego battery pack and have the robot operate that?



3. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/23/2007 09:22:58 GMT
   Hi Dale,
   
   2 short answers:
   #1 NO
   #2 NO
   
   electric components are limited in the rules,
   Rule 7 to be more precise.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Hints By: ControlAltDelete6157 10/24/2007 20:25:49 GMT
If anyone has any helpful hints it would be greatly apreciated. Also We need to chose a problem that we can solve so if anyone has any idea's on that we would be very thankful!

1. Message by: 922daredevils 10/17/2007 23:40:48 GMT
   The United States forum has lots of explanations about the missions. If you still don't understand a mission I'd be happy to try to explain it but most people don't throw out random hints.
   
   What do you mean by "we need to choose a problem?" Have you read the missions? The idea is to complete as many missions as possible in 2 and a half minutes. You also need to present your robot, your programs and your project.



1. Message by: crazycreators252 10/18/2007 02:05:28 GMT
   I think he is talking about the Project. In past projects you had to choose a problem and then propose a solution. This year is different. The problem is stated for us in the project introduction:
   
   "This year*s Power Puzzle challenge is about understanding the elements of energy use in a world that uses more and more energy every day. As our world grows and changes, so do our energy needs."
   
   The teams need to propose solutions to the global energy problem. The people of the world need to use less non renewable energy resources and use more renewable energy resources. The solution needs to be about using less energy and/or propose new undiscovered energy sources to fill the ever increasing demands.
   
   I hope this helps,
   Dave
   Team 252



2. Message by: ControlAltDelete6157 10/24/2007 19:23:10 GMT
   Are you sure? If you are what problem do you think we should do.
   
   Thank You
   Yasyf
   Control-Alt-Delete



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/24/2007 20:25:49 GMT
   For me in general it is like this; when I need to ControlAltDelete, I have more then enough problems...
   
   Is that the problem to your answer, you were looking for ??
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: puzzle pieces By: MarltonMustangs2142 11/10/2007 20:48:40 GMT
if anyone was wondering the puzzle pieces on the playing mat spell out a secret message. When our team first found out, we went on this really neat website that has all the puzzle pieces on it, then cut them out an put it together. It really helped our team out, even though we knew it was something we already are doing, it increases our preformance when we help each other out of sticky situations.

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/19/2007 13:08:47 GMT
   The website mentioned by the MarltonMustangs can only be this one:
   
   http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/Lego2007/Resources/resourcesPuzzle.html (take this link for the puzzle pieces)
   
   Take a look at the website and get an idea of the awesome work of Marco Ciavolino..
   
   Go to the homepage of Techbrick:
   http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/TechBrick/index.html
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: NOBLE 11/10/2007 01:09:13 GMT
   Unfortunately, when my team went to put the puzzle together, we used the worksheets, and we noticed that one piece is missing, and replaced by a similar piece that is already used in the puzzle, rendering the puzzle impossible to complete.



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/10/2007 20:48:40 GMT
   Firsthand,
   I Know several teams that succeeded in performing this rathet simple but time consuming thing.
   Do not complain, have fun and a good tinme and witness the team grow in aptitude & attitude as I will for sure.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Solar Power By: Wave6109 11/08/2007 22:59:12 GMT
Does anyone know any websites about solar power?

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/23/2007 09:20:23 GMT
   Great question Stephen!
   
   My answer is YES.
   
   but perhaps you were looking for adresses, if so try this page you'll find lots of interesting links there.
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=29640
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: Wave6109 10/29/2007 21:44:39 GMT
   Thanks...



2. Message by: Wave6109 11/08/2007 22:59:12 GMT
   Does anyone know any really good websites on solar energy explains it in Grade 8 language but more like Grade 2 language... lol
   thanks...

Discussion: height regulation By: energyidol2741 10/24/2007 23:39:14 GMT
Does anyone know what the height regulation is for the robot while in the base?

1. Message by: crazycreators252 10/24/2007 23:39:14 GMT
   See Rules #10

Discussion: Parking Lot By: Ivy Bots 10/30/2007 03:14:09 GMT
When getting the oil barrels from the oil platform, are we allowed to cut through the parking lot to get there, if there are no objects in the parking lot?

Thanks

1. Message by: crazycreators252 10/30/2007 03:14:09 GMT
   QA3 should answer your question.

Discussion: *quipes au Qu*bec - Quebec teams By: RobotSAPiens3659 11/03/2007 17:49:20 GMT
Bonjour,
Nous sommes l'*quipe des Robot SAPiens de Montr*al. C'est notre deuxi*me ann*e de participation. Est-ce qu'il y a d'autres *quipes au Qu*bec ?

Hi,
We are the Robot SAPiens, a French speaking team based in Montreal. It's our second year in the competition! Is there any other team in Quebec province ?

Merci!
Robot SAPiens

Discussion: Presentation By: Vikings 11/05/2007 20:46:37 GMT
With respect to the presentation, do all 10 members of the team have to be involved?

1. Message by: zap4702 11/05/2007 20:46:37 GMT
   One of the things the judges look for is whether the entire team has participated in the research project. So I think it's better if you do have all team members involved in the presentation, and if you cannot do that, then they should be able to demonstrate their knowledge and participation in some other way (by being ready to answer some of the judges questions, for example).
   
   Doreen, Coach
   Team ZAP!

Discussion: Easier Dam/Wind Turbines By: Wave6109 11/07/2007 22:34:21 GMT
If you take the 2 wind turbines and stick them on the 2 ends of the dam, is it illegal?

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/07/2007 22:34:21 GMT
   Hi Stephen,
   
   Short answer, YES that is illegal!
   
   Here you can read is why ,RTFR!
   
   RULE 14. Scoring Objects Scoring objects are objects that could be worth points depending on their location. To score, each scoring object must itself meet the mission requirements for points, no matter where the robot or any strategic objects is. You are not allowed to bundle, connect, or attach scoring objects to each other, but placing them in a strategic container is allowed.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Coal Mining By: solarsons1733 11/23/2007 06:58:22 GMT
Are we allowed to push the coal mining cart from base by hand?

1. Message by: solarsons1733 11/22/2007 18:52:52 GMT
   Are we allowed to push the coal minig cart by hand from the base?



1. Message by: zap4702 11/22/2007 18:56:03 GMT
   No, unless the mission tells you otherwise, only the robot can move any of the objects in order to score.
   
   The only time you can move the coal cart by hand is after it has rolled down the ramp - then you pick it up with your hands to move it into base.
   
   Doreen



2. Message by: crazycreators252 11/23/2007 06:58:22 GMT
   You can move the coal car to the base from the tracks after it has rolled down and contacted the bumper. You have to do this to get the coal out for the power plant mission. Once in base it can be moved by hand following the housekeeping rules: it can be moved by hand to the parking lot, or a box or table or cart you bring to the table. We asked the referee at our tournament last week if we could store it in the white area behind the tracks, "Near Base", and it was allowed.
   Hope this helps,
   Dave

Discussion: Coorporate Sponsors By: Wave6109 11/23/2007 15:36:44 GMT
For team T-shirts are we allowed to have a corporate sponsor so we do not have to pay for them ourselves? Please respond asap if you know for sure...

1. Message by: crazycreators252 11/23/2007 06:42:34 GMT
   If you can get a sponsor to provide them - great.
   We have done fundraisers to get the money to buy them. We have had the parents pitch in as well. It up to the coach and team how you get your t-shirts.
   Hope this helps,
   Dave



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/23/2007 15:36:44 GMT
   Be sure to thank any sponsors profusely. Keep them apprised of your team's progress, and invite them to events. There have been teams in FRC that ignored major sponsors, taking them for granted. Some have lost sponsorship that way.
   
   - Gary

Discussion: Competetion Hints By: RoboRobbins1427 11/25/2007 05:29:55 GMT
Sault Ste Marie, Ontario, had the regional competetion today and it was GREAT!!!

Two teams are advancing to Toronto in two weeks time! Good Luck to Grandview and Anna McRea Schools!

Display posters are a great idea. Flyers with your Team information/ideas, buttons, candies or whatever you want as a "party favour" (one Teams gave out a baggie with a puzzle)are good ideas. A mascot of any kind of robot (Furbee, Robo Rapter, toy dog) brings fun and inspiration to your Team. Have a picture of your Robot for the Judges with your attachments...it might help them remember you after seeing so many other Teams. Bring water for your Team in a cooler. Bring rulers, markers and construction paper to make flags with your Team name first thing in the morning to get the gitters out. Empty water bottles with pennies in it, are good noise makers at the Rallies. Make a cheer or two!

This was our school's first time in the FLL and we wish you all a great time! What a super great day it was today!

From, Low Tech Girl in the Soo

Discussion: Oil Drilling By: solarsons1733 11/27/2007 15:25:31 GMT
Are we allowed to take a tool and drive over to the oil drilling and destroy it, taking the oil barrels with us? Or do we have to hit the thing to make the oil barrels fall? Thanks.

1. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 11/27/2007 10:06:51 GMT
   I think intentional field damage of a mission model would be frowned on. Particularly since this one does give up it's oil barrels rather willingly. I'm not going to spend time reading all the rules (again) for the answer, but I bet it is in there somewhere.



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/27/2007 15:25:31 GMT
   Rule 27, Field Damage:
   
   > The robot is not allowed to break mission models ...
   
   - Gary

Discussion: BC Teams -- Good luck! By: Beach Grove Robotics 12/26/2007 22:05:20 GMT
We've already been to the Fraser Valley Tournament (Nov 24) and I know the Vancouver Island Tournament was last weekend as well.

Good luck to the Vancouver teams, whose tournament is this Saturday!

If you have a team in BC, and you check the forum, post here and say HI! We are the NXT Ninjas, from Beach Grove Elementary. I don't think we made it to the Provincials -- boy were the kids ever excited and motivated after the tournament! We had our best meeting ever on Tuesday (too late, of course). Too bad it's all over now, but we had fun.

1. Message by: powerstormers 12/04/2007 19:55:03 GMT
   Hi Beach Grove Robotics:
   
   I coach the Power Stormers from Victoria. We had fun at the tournament and are looking forward to the Provincial tournament in January.
   
   I wish there was more info shared between the BC tournaments. How did your team do? How did the other teams do?
   
   We saw one team that 'catapulted' their wave tourbine into the ocean. It wasn't all that reliable, but we loved watching it!



1. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/05/2007 19:07:19 GMT
   We did better than last year, but 140 points didn't go far in our tournament. The top team was (I think) Buildbots with 365. There were only 10 teams at our tournament. How many did you have?



2. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/10/2007 19:23:18 GMT
   Powerstormers-- I haven't seen any results or press releases from any of the tournaments. How did you know you got selected for the Provincials?
   
   One of our parents passed on one small item he found at the SFU website.
   http://www.sfu.ca/sfunews/Stories/sfunews112907018.shtml
   
   -- Nora



1. Message by: powerstormers 12/26/2007 22:05:20 GMT
   We received an email invite from Faith. They were sent out around Dec. 3-5. I'm not sure of the exact date.
   
   I know another team from the Victoria Tournament who contacted me a week later and asked about the invites too. They hadn't heard either way. Maybe Faith could post a list of invited teams to the BC website so that everyone could check.
   
   Power Stormers won the Technical category, which is probably how they earned their invite.
   
   Our robot should have performed better. The best score was 185 (with a -40 penalty). I think the top score at the tournament was around 250.
   
   The kids are still working and could end up with a score over 300 by the provincial tournament. They have missions for everything, but need to shave some time off to get everything done in 2.5 minutes.

Discussion: Smart Module system. MOT revealed! By: Watt 12/16/2007 22:52:10 GMT
Hello everybody,

Team Watt is a dutch team that has been developing a modular robotdesign which allows very short rebuild times in between missions for the last 2 years, called MOT.
Since we get more and more questions from teams how to build this, we have added some instructions (in English) to our website, which is mainly in dutch. http://www.freewebs.com/wattateam/mottechniek.htm
We invite everybody to share and try this design, because it is really fast.

Good luck with all the tournaments still comming up, our next game is Beneluxfinals in Enschede, Netherlands.

Greetz
Watt a team!

Discussion: 2008 Challenge By: robodogs2506 12/19/2007 17:32:47 GMT
How has your team responded to the 2008 Challenge announcement?

Discussion: Red Oil Barrel Usage By: Wave6109 01/08/2008 09:08:25 GMT
Is it allowed if you use the red oil barrel for the Corn Harvesting prerequisite of one oil barrel in the farm?

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 01/08/2008 09:08:25 GMT
   Hi Stephen,
   
   The color does not matter, so pick the color you like best.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

---

Folder: CHILE 09/28/2007 08:33:29 GMT


Discussion: Welcome By: LEGO1 09/28/2007 08:33:29 GMT
Welcome to the FLL Forum * hopefully you will all have a great FLL pilot season in Chile. I'm looking forward to hear more about your experiences with FLL as a team, as a coach, from your tournaments, or what ever you would like to share with other FLL forum members.

Best regards
Gerhard Bjerrum-Andersen

Product/project Manager,
FIRST LEGO League (FLL),
LEGO Education
Denmark

---

Folder: DEUTSCHLAND 12/19/2007 17:34:31 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:07:14 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

Discussion: Anzahl der Motoren By: B*rde-Robots1232 09/19/2007 17:52:33 GMT
Kann man Zusatzteile mit Motor in der Base austauschen, so dass man mehr als drei Motoren nutzt, aber stets nur drei auf dem Spielfeld am Roboter dran sind?

1. Message by: B*rde-Robots1232 09/18/2007 21:47:03 GMT
   Anzahl der Motoren
   B*rde-Robots1232 - 09:46pm Sep 18, 2007
   
   Kann man Zusatzteile mit Motor in der Base austauschen, so dass man mehr als drei Motoren nutzt, aber stets nur drei auf dem Spielfeld am Roboter dran sind?



1. Message by: Robonatler 09/19/2007 17:52:33 GMT
   Nein, beachte die Regeln! Es z*hlen die Teile die mit ans Feld gebracht werden nicht die, die am Roboter angebaut sind, wenn der Roboter aus der Base f*hrt!

Discussion: *lfass auf der Farm By: B*rde-Robots1232 09/29/2007 19:02:46 GMT
Wenn ich den Truck mit den *lf*ssern auf die Farm gebracht habe, ist dann gleichzeitig die Aufgabe erf*llt ein *lfass auf die Farm gebracht zu haben?

1. Message by: B*rde-Robots1232 09/18/2007 21:49:40 GMT
   *lfass auf der Farm
   B*rde-Robots1232 - 09:49pm Sep 18, 2007
   
   Wenn ich den Truck mit den *lf*ssern auf die Farm gebracht habe, ist dann gleichzeitig die Aufgabe erf*llt ein *lfass auf die Farm gebracht zu haben?



1. Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 09/20/2007 08:41:53 GMT
   Ja, das gilt. Schaut bei "Fragen und Antworten" nach Punkt 41.



2. Message by: TrobTeam1236 09/20/2007 16:29:58 GMT
   Darf der Roboter ber*hrt werden, wenn er gleichzeitig auf dem Parkplatz und der Base ist



1. Message by: LegoMetrix1152 09/29/2007 19:02:46 GMT
   Ja, sobald ein Teil des Roboters in der Base ist, darfst du ihn mit der Hand in die Base nehmen.

Discussion: Parkplatz By: TrobTeam1236 10/05/2007 13:23:20 GMT
Darf der Roboter ber*hrt werden, wenn er gleichzeitig auf dem Parkplatz und der Base ist?

1. Message by: java-robotik 09/21/2007 05:09:41 GMT
   Der Roboter darf ber*hrt werden, wenn er den die Basis auch nur ankratzt. So war es jedenfalls bisher...
   
   Mich w*rde interessieren, ob die schwarze Linie zur Basis dazugeh*rt. Bisher war auch das so, aber dieses Mal sind die so breit, dass ich ins Gr*beln gekommen bin...



1. Message by: AuP Junior 09/21/2007 17:29:48 GMT
   Die schwarze Linie geh*rt nicht (!!) zur Base. Zur Base geh*rt nur der wei*e Bereich.
   Einige Antworten zu ein paar Fragen findet ihr auch hier:
   http://www.hands-on-technology.de/firstlegoleague/fllpp/questions#51
   gr**e,
   markus



2. Message by: 10/01/2007 16:30:48 GMT
   Deleted



3. Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/05/2007 13:23:20 GMT
   Ja, aber nur wenn er mit einem Teil auf der weissen Fl*che der Base ist.

Discussion: Software By: vhsrobots1069 09/23/2007 15:39:05 GMT
In den Regeln steht, da* ich nur Software verwenden kann, die den
Mindstormspackungen beiliegt. Wie ist das mit Robolab? In den letzten Jahren durfte ich das verwenden. Jetzt nicht mehr?

1. Message by: Sapplaus!1224 09/22/2007 10:27:56 GMT
   Ich glaube nur wenn du einen RCX verwendest.



1. Message by: AuP Junior 09/22/2007 11:09:57 GMT
   Soweit ich wei* ist jede Version von Robolab (also auch Robolab 2.9 f*r NXT) erlaubt. Dies steht aber auch auf der Hands On Technology / FIRST LEGO League Seite.



2. Message by: vhsrobots1069 09/23/2007 15:39:05 GMT
   Danke f*r die Antworten. Auf der HOT-Seite unter Fragen & Antworten habe ich es jetzt als Antwort 33 gefunden.

Discussion: Staudamm By: Sapplaus!1224 09/23/2007 21:35:21 GMT
Darf das Wasser des Staudammes die Br*cken ber*hren ?

1. Message by: power-bucks 09/23/2007 21:35:21 GMT
   In der Aufgabenbeschreibung steht, dass der Damm *stlich der Base positioniert wird.
   Wird unter ber*cksichtigung dieser Pr*misse bei anlegen des Hochwassers (wird immer richtung Osten angelegt) eine Br*cke vom Hochwasser ber*hrt, ber*hrt dieses auf jeden Fall immer ein Haus! Insofern gibt es hier immer Abz*ge!

Discussion: Forschungspr*sentation By: power-bucks 11/15/2007 14:17:35 GMT
Kann mir jemand sagen, wie viele Teammitglieder die P*sentation der Forschungsergebnisse vortragen k*nnen / d*rfen / m*ssen ?????

1. Message by: adelhitec1212 09/25/2007 11:45:01 GMT
   ich glaube, dass kann man sich selber aussuchen. Es kann theoretisch nur einer die Forschungspr*sentation vortragen, aber man kann auch das ganze Team einbinden.



1. Message by: robonnix1051 09/26/2007 14:28:16 GMT
   jeder darf teilnehmen aus dem team! wie schon geasagt wurde es kann teoretisch alle teilnehmen oder nur einer!
   das bleibt dem team selbst *berlassen!



2. Message by: power-bucks 10/13/2007 16:08:42 GMT
   Ja..Aber wie viele Leute d*rfen es maximal sein, die den Vortrag halten???



3. Message by: robonnix1051 10/16/2007 18:06:29 GMT
   Naj, ich denke es macht einen guten Eindruck, wenn alle dabei sind. Einige sind vielleicht aktiver als die anderen, das kann schon sein.



4. Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 10/19/2007 11:12:17 GMT
   Es sollten m*glichst alle dabei sein, wenn man einen guten Eindruck machen m*chte!
   
   Viel Spa* bei der FLL
   
   RoboSAPiens



5. Message by: LEGOCreators 11/15/2007 14:17:35 GMT
   Es d*rfen maximal 10 Leute vortragen!!!
   Denn es d*rfen maximal 10 Leute an der FLL teilnehmen.
   Es d*rfen aber KEINE Coaches bei dem Vortrag mitwirken!!

Discussion: Begrenzung - Stra*e By: robotkids1386 10/03/2007 17:20:23 GMT
Darf der Roboter sich nur auf den Stra*en bewegen oder am ganzen Spielfeld, also auch *ber die Fl*sse?

1. Message by: robonnix1051 09/26/2007 14:29:25 GMT
   der kan *beral hn auch *br fl*sse und h*uder fahren!



1. Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/03/2007 17:20:23 GMT
   Da hat wohl jemand zu schnell geschrieben!

Discussion: Ausrichtung Base By: robotkids1386 10/05/2007 05:34:17 GMT
Darf der Roboter sobald ein Teil von ihm in der Base angekommen ist, neu ausgerichtet werden , f*r die n*chste Aufgabe?

Macht es Sinn eine Startschablone anzufertigen, ist das erlaubt?

1. Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/01/2007 16:27:19 GMT
   Sobald ein Teil des Roboter in der weissen Fl*che der Base ist darf er ber*hrt und neu ausgerichtet werden.
   
   Wenn ihr mit dem Auge unsicher seit, macht es das. Sie darf jedoch nur aus Lego bestehen und darf nicht *ber die weisse Fl*che der Base hinausragen.



1. Message by: power-bucks 10/03/2007 09:42:23 GMT
   Weiterhin solltest du dir die Regeln 19. Start-Methode, 20. *bergangsmodus und 21. Autonomer Betrieb durchlesen.
   Hieraus geht hervor, dass Schablonen sicherlich erlaubt sind, jedoch w*hrend des Starts (sobald der Roboter beginnt die Base zu verlassen) keine Kontakt mehr zum Roboter haben d*rfen.



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/05/2007 05:34:17 GMT
   Beobachten Sie auch Regeln 7 (Material).
   Schablone must complett angfertigt sein von LEGO etc
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Dammplatzierung 1 By: legomaker1406 10/06/2007 18:34:26 GMT
Ist es erlaubt zu Beginn des "Spiels" den Damm so in der Base zu platzieren, dass nur ein kleines St**ck des Dammes noch die wei**e Basefl**che ber**hrt, der Rest des Dammes au**erhalb steht?

1. Message by: 10/01/2007 16:19:56 GMT
   Deleted



1. Message by: 10/01/2007 16:22:51 GMT
   Deleted



2. Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/06/2007 18:34:26 GMT
   Nein es darf nichts *ber die weisse Fl*che der Base hinaus ragen.

Discussion: Dammplatzierung 2 By: legomaker1406 11/15/2007 14:21:45 GMT
Was hei**t genau **stlich der Base? Muss der Damm komplett "grafisch gesehen" rechts der Base stehen, oder darf ein Teil des Dammes auch n**rdlich oder auch n**rdlich-**stlich platziert werden?

1. Message by: Ursulaner1050 10/01/2007 16:43:45 GMT
   Der Damm muss meiner Ansicht nach "*stlich der Base", somit *stlich von der *stlichen Base-Begrenzung stehen.



1. Message by: LEGOCreators 11/15/2007 14:21:45 GMT
   Nat*rlich ist es auch erlaubt den damm nach norden zu scheiben sonst k*nnte man die aufgabe nicht nach den regeln l*sen, da es sonsst probleme mit dem Wasser und Coalcar geben w*rde

Discussion: Antrieb By: Ursulaner1050 11/14/2007 15:07:00 GMT
Hallo leute.... mich w*rde interessieren, wie ihr den Antrieb eures Roboters realisiert habt. Ich habe es einmal mit dem Lego-Differential probiert; der Erfolg hielt sich aber in Grenzen ;)
Insofern nutzen wir weiterhin zwei Motoren, und haben somit einen f*r die bewegung der verschiedenen Anbauteile *brig. Nun w*rde mich mal interessieren, ob jemand das Differential zum Laufen gekriegt hat oder wie ihr es habdhabt.

PS: F*r alle, die nicht wissen, was ein Differential ist: Ein Differential erlaubt es dem Roboter, mit nur einem Motor sowohl vorw*rts zu fahren, als auch (wenn der Motor die Richtung *ndert) ein Rad zu blockieren und das andere r*ckw*rts laufen zu lassen. Die Bauanleitung findet ihr in der Lego-Constructopedia auf den Seiten 102-105 (Titel: "Streng Geheim")

MfG
Die Ursulaner aus Osnabr*ck

1. Message by: godsofrobots1126 11/01/2007 08:40:19 GMT
   Wir fahren mit einem Differential. Die Lenkung muss dann jedoch sehr genau sein.
   
   Viele Gr**e
   
   Gods of Robots



1. Message by: godsofrobots1126 11/14/2007 15:07:00 GMT
   Wir haben unseren Wettbewerb mit dem 2ten Platz abgeschlo*en und haben nun Bilder im Internet ver*ffentlicht.
   
   www.godsofrobots.de

Discussion: Aufgabe Kohlenabbau?? By: DieAlt.En1253 11/15/2007 14:25:41 GMT
hallo !!
wollte Fragen ob das normal ist das bei der Kohlenabbau Aufgabe die schwarzen oder roten Steine Rausfallen?
Darf man diese vor dem Wettbewerb noch richten ??

lg Die Alt.en

1. Message by: power-bucks 10/06/2007 10:49:13 GMT
   Normalerweise fallen keine Steine aus der Loge. Bei uns zumindest nicht...Ist sie bei euch waagerecht ausgerichtet, oder ist sie etwas schief???



1. Message by: DieAlt.En1253 10/06/2007 13:36:35 GMT
   Hallo !!
   
   Danke f*r eure Antwort!!
   
   mit freundlichen Gr**en
   
   Die Alt.en



2. Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/06/2007 18:30:49 GMT
   Damit es Folgen f*r die Punktbewertung gibt m*ssten mindestens 11 schwarze Kohlest*cke rausfallen. Rote k*nnen theoretisch alle rausfallen.(F*r das Kraftwerk braucht es nur zehn Kohlest*cke und die roten darf man gar nicht dorthin bringen).
   Also uns sind nie mehr als zehn schwarze Kohlest*cke herausgefallen. Ich glaube da m*sst ihr euch nicht zu grosse sorgen machen.



3. Message by: DieAlt.En1253 10/07/2007 19:49:10 GMT
   hallo !!
   
   danke f*r eure Antwort !!
   
   mit freundlichen gr**en Die Alt.en



4. Message by: LEGOCreators 11/15/2007 14:25:41 GMT
   Aber denkt dran
   der Wagen muss den unteren Prellbock ber*hren !!!

Discussion: Stromversorgung By: eag07 10/05/2007 22:02:14 GMT
Ist es erlaubt einige Bausteine auf die Grundplatte mit den Strommasten zu montieren?

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/05/2007 22:02:14 GMT
   Nein, sehe Regeln 27
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Forschungsauftrag By: power-bucks 10/19/2007 10:58:02 GMT
Was ist damit gemeint???:

"Nutzt die von FLL zur Verf*gung gestellten Hilfsmittel und den Ratgeber als Anleitung und Musterbeispiel zur Durchf*hrung einer Energiepr*fung."
(so die Aufgabenstellung Teil 1)

Welcher Ratgeber welche Hilfsmittel???

1. Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 10/19/2007 10:58:02 GMT
   Es gibt kein Musterbeispiel. Es gibt nur Hinweise und Links im Bereich Glossar und Aufgabenhintergr*nde.
   
   Viel Spa*
   
   RoboSAPiens

Discussion: stragetischer Beh*lter auf Stromleitung ?? By: DieAlt.En1253 10/19/2007 11:10:58 GMT
Hallo !!

Wollte Fragen ob man einen stragetischen Beh*lter aud die Stromleitung draufstellen darf und ihn dann mit der Stromleitung ins Kraftwerk bringen darf und es z*hlt wenn die Stromleitung und der Beh*lter direkten Kontakt zum Kraftwerk hat ??

freundliche gr**e Die Alt.en

1. Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/07/2007 20:30:10 GMT
   Ja, die Punkte f*r die Stromleitung und f*r den strategischen Beh*lter(inhalt) werden gewertet.
   
   P.S kleiner Schreibfehler: "aud" statt "auf".



1. Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 10/19/2007 11:10:58 GMT
   Die Frage ist, ob diese beiden Objekte mit einander direkt verbunden sind!
   
   Viele Gr**e
   
   RoboSAPiens
   
   PS:
   Was ist eigentlich "stragetisch"?
   Ich w*rde "strategisch" schreiben!
   
   Viel Spa* bei der FLL
   
   RoboSAPiens

Discussion: Vor Damm strategischen Beh*lter ? By: DieAlt.En1253 10/13/2007 16:30:09 GMT
hallo

wollte fragen ob ma vor den damm einen strategischen beh*lter mit dem roten oder weisen *lfass setzten darf und dann den damm hin*ber bringen darf also dass dann der beh*lter mit dem fass auf der flussh*lfte der farm ist.
also wenn dann die juri die flut setzt ob es dann z*hlt wenn das *lfass im weg ist oder ob es sogar 40 abzugspunkte gibt!

mit freudlichen gr**en Die ALt.en

Ps: danke jetzt schon f*r antworten !!

1. Message by: LegoMetrix1152 10/12/2007 21:35:30 GMT
   In der Aufgabenstellung steht nur, dass der Damm und die Flut keine H*user ber*hren d*rfen. Von strategischen Beh*ltern ist nirgendwo die Rede. Deshalb glaube ich nach Regel 23(Erlaubte Handlungen) das dies durchaus m*glich ist.



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/12/2007 23:32:04 GMT
   Ist nach meine meinung 100% ok. Jury braucht die Flut nicht zu plazieren, kann auch projektieren.
   (verzeihung; mein Deutsch ist nicht so gut)
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by: DieAlt.En1253 10/13/2007 16:30:09 GMT
   hallo !!!
   
   danke euch f*r eure Antworten!!!!
   
   mit freundlichen Gr**en die Alt.en

Discussion: Robolab 2.9 By: robonnix1051 10/18/2007 19:40:00 GMT
Steinigt uns, wir finden es nicht, obwohl es doch ganz einfach gehen muss: Wie kriegen wir mehr als ein einziges Programm auf den NXT?

1. Message by: AuP Junior 10/11/2007 20:25:43 GMT
   Ihr m*sst die Programme richtig bennen, sonst hei*en alle nur "rbl". Dies macht ihr mit der NXT-Ampel, die sich bei den Symbolen unter dem NXT-Baustein befindet. Dort kann man die Namen in dem Rosa-K*stchen *ndern...
   
   Gr**e,
   Markus
   www.team-wbg.de.vu



1. Message by: robonnix1051 10/16/2007 18:04:03 GMT
   Danke danke. Schwer zu finden! Robolab 2.9 ist wirklich m*chtig - aber leider schlecht dokumentiert! Der Trick ist also, dass man nicht die normale RCX-Gr*n Ampel nimmt, sondern die spezielle NXT-Ampel. Diese erm*glicht dann die Namensgebung! Habt ihr das alle schon gewusst? Gibt es so wenige Robolab 2.9 Programmierer?



2. Message by: AuP Junior 10/18/2007 19:40:00 GMT
   also wir haben das sp*testens dann rausgefunden, als es mir der normalen Ampel nicht geklappt hat. Generell gilt bei Robolab eigentlich: Learning by Doing! Auch was konpliziertere Programmsturkturen angeht!
   Markus

Discussion: Teile anf*gen ! By: DieAlt.En1253 10/17/2007 22:05:42 GMT
Ist es erlaubt an der solarzelle und am damm teile anzuf*gen?
lg.
Die Alt.Elten

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/17/2007 22:05:42 GMT
   Hallo,
   
   Ich versuche Sie etwas weiter zu helfen:
   
   Lese Bitte Regel 14:
   
   14. Wertungsobjekte
   Wertungsobjekte sind Objekte, die Punkte erzielen k*nnen, wenn sie am richtigen Standort sind. Um gewertet zu werden, muss jedes Wertungsobjekt die Anforderungen der einzelnen Missionen erf*llen, unabh*ngig wo der Roboter oder strategische Objekte sind. Es ist nicht erlaubt, Wertungsobjekte zu b*ndeln, zu verbinden oder aneinander anzuf*gen. Es ist erlaubt, sie in einen strategischen Beh*lter zu platzieren.
   
   Ein ausnahme gibt es: Baume aber beschraenkt.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Wertungsobjekte By: RoboSAPiens1003 10/20/2007 11:25:04 GMT
Ab wann darf man Wertungsobjekte, die der Roboter in Richtung Base bringt, von Hand in die Base nehmen?

Vielen Dank im Voraus

RoboSAPiens

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/20/2007 11:25:04 GMT
   Hi,
   
   Ich glaube da haben Sie ein Problem in die Deutche Uebersetzung von die Regeln gefunden.
   Normal ist der USA text leitent, ich weiss nicht wie dass genau in BRD gemacht werd.
   
   Hier ist RULE 21 leitent. USA text : wenn Robot teilweise in Base ist darf mann der Robot anfassen ohne straff, Aber wenn der Robot "scoring objects" hat die nicht in Base sind, dann mussen die "scoring object" bleiben auf die letzte Position auf den Matt.
   
   die Deutsche uebersetzung ist anders....
   
   Ich sage immer zu mein team, wenn zweifel folg die tekst aus USA.
   
   [verzeihung vor mein slechte beherrschung von der Deutche Sprache.]
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: b*ume By: gob 11/11/2007 20:46:41 GMT
darf man die b*ume auf einer plattform platzieren und die plattform verschieben?

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/24/2007 17:13:31 GMT
   Hi Austria!
   
   Sehe:
   
   http://www.hands-on-technology.de/firstlegoleague/fllpp/robotgame?sid=b4d0757d8199a5c6dc8a46e4df859876
   
   Baumpflanzung:
   
   Bewegt die B*ume zu einem beliebigen Gebiet n*rdlich des Hauptflusses. Die B*ume m*ssen aufrecht stehen.
   
   An die B*ume k*nnen f*r diese Aufgabe Teile angef*gt werden.
   
   ABER, Sie mussen sehr gut Lesen! und die kombination mit den Regel ueber Wertungsobjekten gut beobachten.
   
   m.fr.gr.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: Geistesblitze 10/24/2007 17:37:14 GMT
   Hallo!
   
   Wir wollten die B*ume eigentlich auch auf eine Platte stellen, aber irgenwo steht, dass man die B*ume mit einem stategischen Objekt verbinden darf, aber z.B. nicht auf eine Platte stellen darf.
   Ich glaube das steht auf der hands-on-technology Seite unter h*ufig gestellte Fragen oder so *hnlich.
   
   lg



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/24/2007 20:19:33 GMT
   Geheimschrift?
   
   1b - 1p = ok / >1b-1p nicht ok
   
   Wertungsobjekten verbinden nicht ok
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by: Ursulaner1050 10/30/2007 19:28:59 GMT
   Also,
   
   1 Baum auf eine Platte --> erlaubt {s. Aufgabenstellung}
   Alle B*ume zusammen auf eine Platte --> verboten {s. Regel 14}



3. Message by: Robo de Luxe 1393 11/11/2007 20:46:41 GMT
   Laut Regel 14: Es ist nicht erlaubt, Wertungsobjekte zu b*ndeln, zu verbinden oder aneinander anzuf*gen. Es ist erlaubt, sie in einen strategischen Beh*lter zu platzieren.
   
   Mit sie sind ja die Wertungsobjekte gemeint und einen hei*t ja 1!
   Also darf man mehrere in ein Beh*lter stecken.
   
   MfG

Discussion: *ffentliche Forschungspr*sentation By: Geistesblitze 11/17/2007 22:08:02 GMT
"Gebt eure Arbeit auf kreative Art und Weise an eure Gemeinde weiter." Was ist beim Forschungsauftrag damit gemeint? Hei*t das, dass wir in der *ffentlichkeit unsere Pr*sentation vorf*hren m*ssen, wie zum Beispiel in der Schule, oder wie? Hoffen auf baldige Antwort, die Attnedorner Geistesblitze

1. Message by: Ursulaner1050 11/17/2007 22:08:02 GMT
   Ja, ihr m*sst der Gemeinde eure Ergebnisse vortragen,. und dann sp*ter beim Wettbewerb innerhalb von 5 Minuten nur noch sagen, wie es war als ihr das vorgetragen habt, was ihr herausgefunden habt und was die l*sung daf*r sein k*nnte (s. Aufgabe)
   
   MfG
   Ursulaner1050

Discussion: *ffentliche Forschungspr*sentation By: Geistesblitze 11/04/2007 16:23:17 GMT
"Gebt eure Arbeit auf kreative Art und Weise an eure Gemeinde weiter." Was ist beim Forschungsauftrag damit gemeint? Hei*t das, dass wir in der *ffentlichkeit unsere Pr*sentation vorf*hren m*ssen, wie zum Beispiel in der Schule, oder wie? Hoffen auf baldige Antwort, die Attnedorner Geistesblitze.

Discussion: Teamwork By: godsofrobots1126 11/17/2007 22:05:38 GMT
Hallo Lego-Teams,

kann uns einer sagen, was beim Teamwork gefragt oder gefordert wird? Wird das ganze Team ben*tigt?

www.godsofrobots.de

1. Message by: LEGOCreators 11/15/2007 14:47:18 GMT
   Tja
   das wei* wohl niemand, denn das ist ja das gro*e fragezeichen was jetzt noch nicht gekl*rt ist.
   Mal schaun was kommt.



1. Message by: Ursulaner1050 11/17/2007 22:05:38 GMT
   Hallo godsofrobots....
   
   da wir schon unseren Wettbewerb hatten (3.Platz der Gesamtwertung), weiss ich, was es mit der Aufgabe auf sich hat, aber es w*re unfair, das hier zu erz*hlen, aber ich kann sagen: Ja, das ganze Team wird ben*tigt, und es geht um die Kommunikation zwischen den Teammitgliedern

Discussion: Solarzelle By: Robo de Luxe 1393 11/06/2007 17:55:42 GMT
Hallo!
Wo genau liegt die Solarzelle bei der ersten Aufgabe?
Vor dem Haus? Oder auf dem Parkplatz? Oder doch wo anders?

MfG

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/06/2007 17:55:42 GMT
   Hi,
   
   sehe hier:
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/hot/
   
   Solarzellen vom Dach, Wasserstoffauto, Strommasten, Damm und Hochwasser, 5 wei*e *lf*sser, 4 B*ume und 2 Windturbinen
   Diese Modelle werden ohne Klettkleber in der Base und/oder in dem wei*en Bereich des Parkplatzes aufgestellt.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Start By: Ursulaner1050 11/08/2007 20:26:33 GMT
Hallo,
meine Frage: Was ist die Starposition, oder besser: Was ist mit dem Wort START gemeint? Bezeichent dieser Begriff nur den ersten Start zu Beginn eines Matches, oder jeden einzelenen Start w*hrend eines Matches, also jedes Mal, wenn der Roboter die Base verl*sst?

MfG
Ursulaner1050

1. Message by: AuP Junior 11/08/2007 20:26:33 GMT
   Das bezeichnet jeden einzelnen Start w*hrend eines Matches. Der Roboter, oder irgendetwas Angebautes, darf nie *ber die Base (wei*e Fl*che, nicht Stra*e drum rum) hinausragen... Er muss immer komplett dadrin stehen, damit man starten darf.
   
   gr**e,
   markus

Discussion: Start By: Ursulaner1050 11/08/2007 15:10:39 GMT
Hallo,
meine Frage: Was ist die Starposition, oder besser: Was ist mit dem Wort START gemeint? Bezeichent dieser Begriff nur den ersten Start zu Beginn eines Matches, oder jeden einzelenen Start w*hrend eines Matches, also jedes Mal, wenn der Roboter die Base verl*sst?

MfG
Ursulaner1050

Discussion: Wellenturbine By: Power Puzzler 11/09/2007 17:55:55 GMT
Hallo!

Kann mir jemand sagen, wo genau der Bereich ist, in dem die Wellenturbine stehen muss.
Kann / oder muss sie teilweise auf dem Land un im Wasser stehen?

Gr**e
Dieter

Discussion: Autotausch By: Robo de Luxe 1393 11/12/2007 15:46:39 GMT
Hallo,
Ist es beim Autotausch erlaubt das Wasserstoffauto in der Base auf die Seite oder auf das Dach zu drehen?

MfG

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/11/2007 23:04:50 GMT
   Wenn nichts geschrieben ist dass das es nicht erlaubt ist....
   Tipp, lese den tekst gut.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: RoboSAPiens1003 11/12/2007 15:46:39 GMT
   Ist erlaubt, es soll zum Haus gebracht werden, das wie ist nicht vorgeschrieben, unsere Auto lag auf dem Dach und es hat gez*hlt.
   
   RoboSAPiens

Discussion: Stromversorgung By: Robo de Luxe 1393 11/11/2007 23:06:16 GMT
Hallo!
In der Aufgabe Stromversorgung hei*t es:

F*r jedes Dorf, das auf diese Weise mit dem Kraftwerk verbunden ist, gibt es 5 Punkte.

F*r ein angeschlossenes Dorf, das gleichzeitig eine richtig platzierte Windturbine besitzt, gibt es weitere 5 Punkte. Gleiches gilt f*r den richtig positionierten Damm.

Das hei*t doch das wenn in dem Dorf eine Turbine und ein Damm steht gibt es 10 Punkte.
Wenn aber 2 Windturbinen und der Damm in dem Dorf stahen gibt es dann 15 Punkte?

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/11/2007 23:06:16 GMT
   Lesen...
   max punkte 30, (need I say more?, if so i'll hear or read it)
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Parkplatz By: nanoo2007 11/12/2007 12:43:36 GMT
Frage: Ist es w*hrend der Roboter nicht in der Base ist, also z.b. eine Mission erf*llt, erlaubt strategische Objekte oder Wertungsobjekte im Parkplatz ohne Punktabzug anzufassen oder zu ver*ndern?

Discussion: Wettbewerb Brandenburg By: RoboSAPiens1003 11/12/2007 15:43:42 GMT
Dank an alle Beteiligten des Regionalwettbewerbes in Brandenburg und dem Team OGELMAET Senior alles Gute f*r Triberg.
Die RoboSAPiens

Discussion: 2008 Challenge By: robodogs2506 12/19/2007 17:34:31 GMT
Wat is uw team de reactie op de aankondiging van de 2008 Challenge?

---

Folder: Feedback 07/23/2007 12:10:17 GMT

---

Folder: FIRST Feedback 04/21/2008 21:51:53 GMT


Discussion: Project assignment By: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 04/21/2008 21:51:53 GMT
This year, a large number of teams attending a tournament I coordinate declined the project interview or attended the interview with no project prepared. Comments from the project judges seem to indicate that overall, the projects were less creative than in previous years, and more than usual seemed thrown together at the last minute. Unfortunately, some of the most creative and fun-to-watch projects seemed to sidestep the assignment (they were about energy in general, but ignored the audit), so they had to be marked down. What surprised me was that even some well-seasoned veteran teams showed up without projects.

When talking with some of the coaches, they reported that the kids were less inspired by this year's project than in previous years. One coach said, "This audit is like a college assignment, not an elementary or middle school assignment." The problem was not so much that the kids were assigned to do an energy audit, but that the form provided in the resources was so detailed and rigid. It seemed that if the kids were allowed to brainstorm and figure out what things should be measured in an energy audit, then figure out on their own how they would verify/confirm their results, there would still be some fun in the project. Being spoonfed the form and being told to find a building administrator to fill in all the blanks was cumbersome and uninspiring.

It's my hope that next year's project will be more open-ended, allowing the kids to approach the project more creatively and with greater imagination. This will benefit both the rookies and the veterans. Remember the "I" in FIRST.

Yolande

1. Message by:0222520A 11/28/2007 00:54:32 GMT
   I have to disagree. This project forced my girls to work a little outside their comfort level. Interviewing a building manager and contacting the power company is intimidating to a 10 year. But I think they gained a lot of confidence during the process. Hopefully this will be demonstrated during the tournament.
   
   The project was more clearly defined this year, but I don't think that limited their creativity in any way. The energy audit form was just one of many resources that they used in their presentation. And their solutions range from the mundane and easily implemented to some serious flights of fancy. But they still pale in comparison one of the teams I heard about that who plan to harvest lightning as a power source!
   
   Last year's project was fun, and expanded the girls horizons, but hasn't had much effect on their lives. This year's project is already paying dividends. One of the girls convinced her parents to choose a computer with a better energy star rating. Another replaced several incandescent bulbs with cfl's. My daughter is turning off the lights and TV when she leaves a room, and she wants a LED lamp for Christmas.



1. Message by: bears299 12/14/2007 06:14:34 GMT
   I think one good thing about this year's project was that it could not be done before the kickoff date. Even if you had a team that met all summer to practice with the robot, and did a lot of research about energy, you didn't know that you needed to choose a specific building and find energy savings ideas for that building. So it helped to keep all the teams on a more equal schedule for the project. I have heard of teams that in previous years had pretty much completed the project before September since they expected to get to choose some aspect of the theme and do whatever they wanted to tell about it.
   
   Linda



2. Message by: robodogs2506 12/19/2007 17:41:30 GMT
   How has your team responded to the 2008 challenge?



3. Message by: stclaretransformers1409 04/21/2008 21:51:53 GMT
   I would have to agree that the project this year was very limiting. Last year, we were able to create a short movie, use excerpts from movies, and be fairly creative.
   
   This year, we were forced to audit buildings, and with four registered teams, that was no small task. Since each team needed a separate project, we had to audit four buildings. We wound up researching our school, the local zoo, a solar powered house, and a cupcake bakeshop. While it was great to get out into the community, the project was a lot of work, and we were scrambling to have it finished by the December qualifier.
   
   In the end, it still worked out well, but I prefer the free form approach of years passed.

Discussion: Suggestions for future Challenges By: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/18/2007 20:15:54 GMT
This year, there have been several concerns regarding this year*s Challenge, which hopefully will be considered for next year and beyond. I will try to summarize here, and hopefully, others will post where I have omitted.

1. The Challenge does not require sensor use, and this is a big disadvantage in technical judging. There are teams that can score 400 consistently without using a single sensor, and they are severely downgraded in judging for *Sensor Use*, even if they can explain that they tried sensors and found them less reliable than odometry.

2. There was a lack of variety in this year*s missions. Many of the tasks were *out and back* tasks, requiring no climbing, little turning/navigation, and again, no sensors. While there should always be some *out and back* missions that rookies can accomplish, there should also be some mid-range and difficult challenges so that excellent teams can be set apart from *pretty good* ones, and a score of 400 is rare.

For more details see these threads:
2007 Challenge too easy:
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9c8ed

Technical: Technical scoring: building for the judges vs. building for the table
http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9c9ff

Yolande

---

Folder: Forum Feedback 09/29/2007 04:18:49 GMT


Discussion: RSS Feed for Forum Users By: WomenInBlack3513 08/18/2007 03:37:54 GMT
I feel it would be very useful for busy coaches and students if parts of the Forum were available for reading via a RSS feed in addition to e-mail subscription. Any one else have a thought on this idea?

Mitch Strickland
Coach, Atlanta Girls' School FLL Teams (#3513, #3518 & #3522)

Discussion: Are you having a problem posting in the Forum By: Nancy_Paul_FLL 09/29/2007 04:19:03 GMT
We will check the forum for any problems. Please check back soon.

1. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/07/2007 18:38:10 GMT
   Testing.



1. Message by: KickBot 3881 09/28/2007 22:37:16 GMT
   I think I posted a message but I can't find were it is listed? Help



2. Message by: crazycreators252 09/29/2007 04:18:49 GMT
   See the orange tab below labeled Search?
   Search for your name, "Kickbot".

Discussion: Missing Add discussion button By: tanrobotics 09/15/2007 06:55:48 GMT
US -> FLL Rules and Mission -> Grid Connection

There is no Add discussion button.

I guess you guys forgot to allow read/write access to that folder?

Paul Tan.

Discussion: List of new posts By: The Eagles 09/16/2007 18:21:29 GMT
Not sure how feasible it is, but what I'd like to be able to see is a list of all the new posts since the last time I visited, preferrably sorted by category. I'd rather have to scroll through the irrelevant ones than have to drill down through each of the topics which could be of interest.

1. Message by: zap4702 09/16/2007 04:01:05 GMT
   You can do this by subscribing to the folders which contain the discussions you are interested in. Then new messages will appear in the Message Centre when you click on the Message Centre button each time you access the Forum. For more information, you really should read through the Quick Forum Help area which is the top folder in the Forum.
   
   Doreen,
   Team ZAP!



1. Message by: The Eagles 09/16/2007 18:21:29 GMT
   Thank you. I hadn't realized I could subscribe to an entire folder.

Discussion: General vs Country-specific discussions By: TechHEds410 09/20/2007 16:42:04 GMT
Would it be possible (in future, if not this year) to put the mission and rules specific fora at the op level. Most of this discussion, which is relevant to all teams, takes place inside the US forum but that is not necessarily obvious to new coaches.

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/20/2007 16:42:04 GMT
   I think that's a very good idea.
   
   Even the World Festival link is under the US folder. Sure, it's held in Atlanta, but there are teams from everywhere that attend.
   
   The Challenge is the same across the whole world, isn't it?
   
   - Gary

Discussion: Problem to join sysop by email By: roboteens1013 09/23/2007 12:46:17 GMT
Hello Sysop

the mail to link on your page don't work...
... and I need your help for the settings.

Best regards

Roman Gieruc
Coach of Roboteens
from Switzerland

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/20/2007 16:45:05 GMT
   I don't know if this will work or not, but you might try @usfirst.org instead.



1. Message by: roboteens1013 09/23/2007 12:46:17 GMT
   Hello MI FLL Volunteer Moderator,
   
   Thank you very much for your advice. I go to try it right now.
   
   Roman Gieruc
   Coach of Roboteens
   from Switzerland

Discussion: Please add South Africa to the country list in the preferences By: NXTreme2007 09/27/2007 20:01:43 GMT
Hi Sysop,

Will you add South Africa to the country list in the preferences please?

I have tried to send this via email but the email address in the sysop link (admin.forum@legoleague.org) does not work. I have also tried admin.forum@usfirst.org and admin.forum@firstlegoleague.org. None of them work.

Thanks

John

---

Folder: LEGO Feedback 12/14/2007 23:03:24 GMT


Discussion: NXT changes that would help FLL By: bears299 12/14/2007 23:03:24 GMT
Dear LEGO,

1. Please sell packages of very short wires (4"/10 cm).
2. Please change the software so that when you back out of a program, the screen does not default back to the first program in the list. In other words, if you have 5 programs, and you just ran program #3, you can press the gray button to leave program #3, then one push of the left arrrow goes to program #2, or one push of the right arrow goes to program #4.

Linda

---

Folder: FRANCE 04/25/2008 15:47:26 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:07:33 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

Discussion: Salut! By: Robotik8 04/25/2008 15:47:26 GMT
Salut!

Est-ce qu'il y a quelqu'un qui aimerait correspondre avec un jeune americain qui aime la robotique?

Muriel

---

Folder: ISRAEL 10/07/2007 07:53:47 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 10/07/2007 07:53:47 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

1. Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/05/2007 02:22:53 GMT
   Go to Techbrick.com. I heard from Israel that there is some good info there. Hope to see you all at the competition. Good luck.
   
   From the U.S..



1. Message by: Highlanders 5947 10/07/2007 07:53:47 GMT
   Way to go, Tech Brick! Your site is amazing! Thanks for the great tools and resources .. and ideas!
   
   Good luck this year.
   
   Roxy Kohler - Anchorage, Alaska

Discussion: misson By: MarltonMustangs2142 09/11/2007 22:02:58 GMT

1. Message by: MarltonMustangs2142 09/11/2007 22:02:58 GMT
   hello

---

Folder: JAPAN 03/05/2008 20:12:57 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 10/08/2007 00:33:35 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

1. Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/08/2007 00:33:35 GMT
   Thanks for the info!!!!!
   
   
   
   U.S.A.

Discussion: WHO is coming to The Open Asian Championships By: icNRG 2340 03/05/2008 20:12:57 GMT
We are team icNRG, a Dutch team who won a ticket to tha Open Asian Championships.
So far we don't have an overview who is coming.
Who can give us more information?

---

Folder: KOREA 12/19/2007 01:31:20 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 12/19/2007 01:31:20 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

1. Message by: CSP_1 12/18/2007 21:43:00 GMT
   u suk korea go die u @#$#%'s



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/19/2007 01:31:20 GMT
   I do not know what that comment should mean, I strongly suggest that this will be removed by the moderators.

---

Folder: Make International Contacts 03/09/2008 22:18:02 GMT


Discussion: Greetings from the UK By: theroboteers232 12/31/2007 18:15:15 GMT
Hello to everyone, if you would like to get into contact with a primary school team based in the UK we would love to hear from you.

Regards
Ivan
Blakesley Primary School
aka The Roboteers Team 232

1. Message by: STEPP218 09/11/2007 21:10:21 GMT
   Does this include other UK Primary Schools ?
   
   I can put you in touch with two in Norfolk, (England)



1. Message by: theroboteers232 11/16/2007 01:21:12 GMT
   Yes definately, sorry about the late reply
   Regards
   Ivan
   Blakesley Primary School



2. Message by: riyadhschools 12/29/2007 11:21:06 GMT
   hellow dear
   nice to meet you
   have my greeting from Riyadh schools KSA
   
   Ahmed Eldeep



1. Message by: theroboteers232 12/31/2007 18:15:15 GMT
   Hi Ahmed
   I have put some photo's from our day at the tournament up on our school website, take a look and let us have any comments. There are also some info about the Lego robotics club we run at school as well.
   
   www.blakesleyprimary.com
   
   Regards
   Ivan Angell
   (Team coach 'The Roboteers 232')
   Blakesley CE Primary School
   UK

Discussion: moving the wind turbines By: Hybrid Force368 11/27/2007 14:52:23 GMT
can we put the wind turbines on the farm land????

1. Message by: Hybrid Force368 11/06/2007 23:47:19 GMT
   can we move the wind turbines into the farm land and can the dam be moved up the river and flood some of the farm land???



1. Message by: Hybrid Force368 11/06/2007 23:50:16 GMT
   can we move the wind turbines on the farm land and move the dam so it will flood the farmland and not get points subtracted from our score??



2. Message by: Green Friends 11/07/2007 21:30:46 GMT
   i thought someone might have some answers but 2 bad u ppl have the same questions as us



3. Message by: Green Friends 11/07/2007 21:31:25 GMT
   do you no how to move the solar pannel onto the house by the sea



4. Message by: Green Friends 11/07/2007 21:32:04 GMT
   SOS HELP US HELP USPLEASE WE REALLY BADLY NEED HELP WE'RE NOT SMART



1. Message by: theroboteers232 11/16/2007 01:22:57 GMT
   What do you need help with?
   
   Ivan
   Blakesley Primary School



2. Message by: bears299 11/24/2007 21:30:52 GMT
   Putting the solar panel on the roof is one of the harder missions because it requires lifting the panel and precise placement so it doesn't fall off. Have you done any of the easier missions that just require pushing an object? Start with simple stuff first. You do not have to do the solar panel mission.
   
   Linda



5. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/09/2007 18:26:52 GMT
   Yes you may put windmill(s) on the farm, and may have one end of the dam on the farm. If the dam or the flood ends up touching one of the red house outlines on the farm, you will get a penalty.
   
   - Gary



6. Message by: Power Pirates 11/27/2007 14:52:23 GMT
   Email flltech@usfirst.org if you'r not sure if you can o somthing or not.

Discussion: Greeting from KSA By: riyadhschools 12/29/2007 11:17:16 GMT
hi every body
I am Ahmed Eldeep coach of Riyadh schools team , i hope to exchange experience and knowledges with other teams and coaches from KSA and worldwide
please define yourself

Discussion: Dutch team to Open Asian Championships By: De Spaarlampjes (team 2330) 01/29/2008 13:33:29 GMT
Hi, we are "De Spaarlampjes" (Power Saving Lights), a team from the Johannesschool in The Netherlands. We qualified for the Open Asian Championships and would like to come in contact with teams who will participate in this event as well. The other team from The Netherlands will be icNRG.

If possible we would like to meet a team from Japan (in school) during our visit as we plan to stay a bit longer. We are a team with 7 children aged 11/12 years old.

We hope to see you all in Japan and have fun with the preparations.

Teamcoach "De Spaarlampjes"

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 01/29/2008 13:32:33 GMT
   Hi everybody we are also going to the Japan FLLOAC !
   
   check also this thread in the USA forum.
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9cb47
   
   SAYONARA !
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Only known Afghani FLL team wants to compete... By: lawngnomes426 03/09/2008 22:18:02 GMT
Please help us to help the only known FLL team in Afghanistan, the Kite Runners, to be able to attend the World Festival this year. We are trying to raise money to allow the Kite Runners to afford to attend the World Festival. They really need your help! To Donate, go to www.firstwa.org. Every penny helps and you can use PayPal to donate. Without your help, they cannot possibly afford to attend.
Thank you!

The Gothic Lawn Gnomes 426

---

Folder: MEXICO 11/30/2007 01:27:24 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:09:08 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

Discussion: maiz y petroleo By: panteras261 11/30/2007 01:27:24 GMT
alguien entendio que onda con eso del petroleo en la granja por q sesupone que un barril de petroleo debe estar en la granja para que cuente la mision del maiz pero si pones un barril de petroleo pierdes 40 puntos alguin sabe algo de esto

1. Message by: Green Friends 10/10/2007 20:02:25 GMT
   para empezar lo puedes explicar bien no te entendi ni papa



1. Message by: Green Friends 10/10/2007 20:06:07 GMT
   miiichelle !!!!



2. Message by: panteras261 10/11/2007 04:04:18 GMT
   mas facil para que te cunte la prueba de el maiz debes dejar un barril de petroleo en la granja



3. Message by: Green Friends 11/28/2007 19:47:46 GMT
   que espliicate pork se nota k no sabes nada



4. Message by: Bulltronics789953 11/30/2007 01:27:24 GMT
   lo que pasa es que en los unicos lugares en los cuales puedes tener barriles es en la base, el estacionamiento y la granja.
   si no dejas un barril en la granja, la mision del maiz no cuenta.

---

Folder: PERU 10/18/2007 00:16:50 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 10/18/2007 00:16:50 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

1. Message by: spartanbots 10/02/2007 05:23:38 GMT
   Hay una escuela Peruana participa este a*o ?
   Roberta (de Hawaii)



1. Message by: brain2007 10/18/2007 00:16:50 GMT
   Hi,
   My name is sharmila.I have a 6 yr old son who is very much interested in building legos .Recently my son has joined as a member in JFFL 2007.I live in knoxville,tennesse.He likes to join in a team and participate in the touranament.I used to buy legos of age (6-12) which are available in stores ,which he builds by himself by referring the manual or sometimes by hinself.He is so much interested .What should i do to form a team and my son to get a proper lego education? Is there anything that i can do ?Please help my son to participate
   in the tournament
   thanks,
   sharmila

---

Folder: SCANDINAVIA 08/28/2007 15:36:22 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/28/2007 15:36:22 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

1. Message by: LEGO1 08/27/2007 15:54:16 GMT
   OK - thanks for sharing!



1. Message by: 08/27/2007 15:55:29 GMT
   Deleted



2. Message by: LEGO1 08/28/2007 15:36:22 GMT
   

---

Folder: SINGAPORE 12/21/2007 01:15:56 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:09:49 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

Discussion: FLL Singapore Competition Results 2007 By: dromeimpalerz94 12/21/2007 01:15:56 GMT
2007 FLL Singapore Competition Results.

1. Message by: dromeimpalerz94 12/21/2007 01:15:56 GMT
   See attachment for the 2007 FLL Singapore Competition Results.

---

Folder: SOUTH AFRICA 08/17/2007 17:10:14 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:10:14 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

---

Folder: SPAIN 10/09/2007 15:08:30 GMT

---

Folder: TAIWAN 08/17/2007 17:10:32 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:10:32 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

---

Folder: TURKEY 08/17/2007 17:10:51 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:10:51 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

---

Folder: UNITED KINGDOM 01/14/2008 08:55:42 GMT


Discussion: Helpful Worksheets for Your Team from TechBrick.com By: TechBrick10 08/17/2007 17:05:41 GMT
We've created our Power Puzzle worksheets for 2007-08

Use these to plan your missions.

* Full table mat in color and B&W as a PDF in letter and A4 sizes in inches and metric measurements.

* All 13 table elements on one sheet for review and build days.

* Cool Lego ruler (downloadable)

* A place to note that you've found the secret message on the board.

Get them all from http://www.techbrick.com

Just follow the link in the red box on the main page...

Please pass this on to other countries as well.

Enjoy...

Look for a sample scoring sheet after the challenge is released...

Discussion: Trees!! By: doncaster007 11/14/2007 15:36:14 GMT
Hi all just a quick question about trees! My pupils are asking how many trees can you move at any one time! Is there a limit or is it as many as you can??? We can not find anything about this so I am assuming the number is any at all.

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/10/2007 20:52:30 GMT
   Hi John,
   
   our team will move all 4 in 1 time. I think the question is not how many, but rather how (to do it within the rules)
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: STEPP218 11/12/2007 19:30:31 GMT
   My understanding is that you can move as many as you want at the same time, as long as they are not joined together in any way.
   Have a look at the US Forum as well as the official Q&As for more help on this, and many other, questions.



2. Message by: green machine 11/13/2007 15:18:00 GMT
   where do you put the rest of the barrels what aren't in the oil rig.



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/14/2007 15:35:59 GMT
   See the field setup instructions. 3 red in the truck, 5 white in base.
   
   - Gary

Discussion: Robot Multi--tasking By: Power Pirates 12/18/2007 21:49:25 GMT
Does anyone know how to make a robot do two things at once on the 'Mindstorms NET Software'

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/26/2007 19:45:20 GMT
   What two kinds of things do you want to do? You can turn your drive motors on to go forward, and then turn your arm motor on to raise or lower it.
   
   - Gary



1. Message by: crazycreators252 11/27/2007 03:29:43 GMT
   http://www.ortop.org/NXT_Tutorial/html/advanced.html
   Go here and watch the multiple tasks tutorial.
   Hope this helps,
   Dave



2. Message by: Power Pirates 11/27/2007 18:25:30 GMT
   We want to move around whilst making our arm do tasks



3. Message by: 12/18/2007 21:48:03 GMT
   Deleted



4. Message by: 12/18/2007 21:49:25 GMT
   Deleted

Discussion: Smart Module system. MOT revealed! By: Watt 12/17/2007 21:52:14 GMT
Hello everybody,

Team Watt is a dutch team that has been developing a modular robotdesign which allows very short rebuild times in between missions for the last 2 years, called MOT.
Since we get more and more questions from teams how to build this, we have added some instructions (in English) to our website, which is mainly in dutch. http://www.freewebs.com/wattateam/mottechniek.htm
We invite everybody to share and try this design, because it is really fast.

Good luck with all the tournaments still comming up, our next game is Beneluxfinals in Enschede, Netherlands.

Greetz
Watt a team!

Discussion: 2008 UK FINAL By: STEPP218 01/14/2008 08:56:20 GMT
Lego Geckos would be very interested to hear from teams who will be at the UK Final in Birmingham in February 2008

1. Message by: TechHEds410 01/09/2008 22:11:06 GMT
   We will be. Who are Lego Geckos?



1. Message by: STEPP218 01/13/2008 19:42:56 GMT
   Winners of Essex Regional.
   
   A new Team from Litcham High School, Norfolk, though one member was part of TechnoBotts last year.
   
   Looking forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks



1. Message by: TechHEds410 01/13/2008 22:07:06 GMT
   We were SHeeN last year (winners of Swindon). Were the TechnoBotts the people we met at breakfast last year? Three boys with a father doing really well with NXT?



2. Message by: STEPP218 01/13/2008 23:12:43 GMT
   Well remembered !
   
   We - certainly family Sheard, including Luke, (exTEchnoBotts, now LegoGeckos) - shall be doing the same this year.
   
   Will we see you at breakfast on Saturday, February 3 at the Hilton, Bromsgrove ?
   
   FYI - TechnoBotts split into two, after the FLL World Festival, where we finished 27th. TechnoBotts II competed at Cambridge, but did not win.
   
   They are doing RoboCup Junior instead/as well, if only to find out what it is all about.



3. Message by: TechHEds410 01/14/2008 08:55:42 GMT
   No, sorry. We are in a Travelodge this year.
   
   I hope you are having fun and we look forward to seeing you on 2 Feb.

---

Folder: UNITED STATES 09/10/2007 14:14:00 GMT

---

Folder: FLL Coaches Handbook - pdf available for downloading (Read Only) 08/23/2007 23:30:33 GMT

---

Folder: FLL Equipment Discussions 09/07/2007 20:31:06 GMT

---

Folder: Battery Questions 11/19/2007 02:25:59 GMT


Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/21/2007 04:09:44 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

1. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 09/20/2007 20:14:41 GMT
   Help! This is the only thead I can post a message to. The "Post Message" button does not show for me on any other part of the forum. I can see "Change subscripts" "Check messages" "message centre" "Search" and then below that I see
   "Preferences".
   
   I am using Firefox, but the same problem with IE. Any idea what might be wrong?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/21/2007 04:09:44 GMT
   Is there a gap between the search line and preferences?
   
   I just looked around and it seems ok for me. If its still a problem in the morning, email me at skye@fll-freak.com
   
   -Skye

Discussion: Red bulb not glowing By: purewatts353 11/19/2007 02:25:59 GMT
Hello,
When we were running one of the missions, the NXT just died. We thought it was out of battery,but whennwe tried to charge it, the red bulb is not glowing. The green is glowing.

Do we need to reset NXT?

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/19/2007 02:25:59 GMT
   The green light would indicate that the battery is charged. If the NXT is not behaving, them I would reseat the battery. If that does not fix it, the next thing I would do would be a reset. If that fails, then I would call PITSCO (if you got this NXT from FIRST) and tell them your problem. PITSCO and LEGO are very good about replacements.
   
   -Skye

---

Folder: Equipment Marketplace 03/28/2008 00:06:36 GMT


Discussion: New Updated Software By: OGEL MAET 09/22/2007 16:19:03 GMT
This is a FLL question, how can I get the new updated software? I know they have been sent out already. Fed-Ex claims to have delivered mine to me back on the 28th. but there is no such package. How can I get another without paying another $20. Thanks so much,
Paul (Coach) Anderson, SC

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/10/2007 15:43:36 GMT
   If you have a delivery problem, you should contact FedEx and ask for details on the delivery. If you did not get it, talk to Pitsco and file a claim. The number for Pitsco should be in your handbook.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: LegoLeaders5452 09/15/2007 00:04:26 GMT
   I haven't received my kits yet - what updated software are you referring to?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/15/2007 01:54:45 GMT
   The NXT-G software that ships with the new FLL robot kits is version 1.1. THe previous verison was 1.0.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by:00A36201 09/22/2007 16:19:03 GMT
   Note talk to pitsco and ask for signature confrimation.

Discussion: Wanted: This Year's Kits By: 0175DA2B 03/27/2008 18:26:02 GMT
I am interested in buying 5 Power Challenge field setup kits at the end of this season (to loan out to area schools along with some donated NXT kits). Contact me if you are interested in selling, or making a tax-deductible donation.

1. Message by: SmithRams3589 10/12/2007 18:29:42 GMT
   oldwells1149,
   Just to let you know, you can purchase old field setup kits from FIRST at the cost of shipping only. At least that was the offer for me since I am the new partner for Oklahoma. It's worth a call.



1. Message by: otjunior2007 03/27/2008 18:26:02 GMT
   Thank you for this information.
   
   Can I call the customer service ?
   
   IF you give me more detail, it's great...
   
   Thanks in advance.

Discussion: Mat for board By: NAMSTigers4742 10/05/2007 03:30:58 GMT
We are waiting to get our board but do not know when we will get it?

1. Message by: Powerhouses6682 10/05/2007 03:30:58 GMT
   Hope this helps, 4742: We registered our team on September 21. The field support kit arrived on Sept. 29, and the board arrived on October 2. Good luck!
   
   Powerhouses6682

Discussion: WANTED: 2007 Robot and Field Kits By: Cobbles 03/28/2008 00:06:36 GMT
Hi,

I'm looking into creating a new FLL team. We can't register until May and after multiple emails are also being told we can't buy a Robot Kit or Field Kit (from last year) to practice with until then.

I'd love to get a used Robot and Field kit to start the kids playing with.

Anyone got one to sell?

I do know you can buy an NXT kit from Lego Education, but would rather get the exact FLL kit.

Thanks in advance,

Mike Kabot
boatlvr68@yahoo.com

1. Message by: Team4287 03/28/2008 00:06:36 GMT
   You might wish to check www.ebay.com. Every once an awhile a field kit from previous years does show up for auction.
   
   -- Stephen

---

Folder: LEGO Building Questions 12/18/2007 03:11:21 GMT


Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/11/2007 22:45:17 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

1. Message by: MarltonMustangs2142 09/11/2007 21:04:45 GMT
   Are we aloud to attach other robots to our robot that do different missions?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/11/2007 22:45:17 GMT
   It would depend on your definition of a robot. If you want to use multiple NXT/RCX controllers than the answer is no. Please read the Allowable Materials rule.
   
   If you want to give a good definition of "robot" than we might be able to answer your question better.
   
   -Skye

Discussion: Intended purpose for some lego pieces By: Squizoids2046 10/04/2007 17:46:05 GMT
Not being super-Lego-construction savy, I've had to learn alot recently about general good lego construction techniques. The NXT education kit, however, came with LEGO pieces that I can't for the life of me understand what might be their typical use.

Graphic would be nice, but best I can describe it, this small piece, about the size of a simple black connecter pin, has a pin connection on one end and a "truck hitch ball" on the other end. The set came with quite a few, so I thought maybe it was going to insert into a socket and serve as a rotation point. But this hitch ball doesn't seem to insert into any other lego connecter that I see. My closest guess is that if you insert a bunch of these into a field of adjacent holes, you end up with a field of "velcro" that would loosely connect to another such field. Is there any obvious use for this plentiful piece?

Just curious.

1. Message by: Team4287 10/02/2007 22:26:19 GMT
   I too had always wondered what the "intended" purpose of the parts were. After watching the kids build / modify their robot last year, I no longer have that curiosity anymore. Basically, my attitude changed.
   
   Instead of becoming curious on the intent of the Lego pieces were, I became curious in seeing how the kids would use the strange unknown pieces. Sometimes, they used two "truck hitch balls" to hold a Lego rubber band between them. Other times, they used it to minimized friction as the pushed a container across the mat. And still other times it was just decorations on the robot.
   
   While I know that didn't answer your original question, I was hoping to show you that you have a bunch of mini-MacGyvers and the sky is the limit on how the kids will use the pieces.
   
   Have a great season and may you be pleasantly surprise and delighted with your team.
   
   Stephen
   Coach
   CO FLL
   MeteorStorm



1. Message by: hoffman1702 10/02/2007 22:46:23 GMT
   Yes, one of my sons did a really cool mechanical solution to last year's Cancer cell challenge, that used those pieces. They held a number of rubber bands in place. The rubber bands kept a small area where the "ball" was placed closed until the robot moved up to the cancer cell. Then the motion of movement triggered the movement of the lower half of the attachment, releasing the ball perfectly into the slot. I was amazed--and it opened up his mind to mechanical solutions that don't require use of a motor.



2. Message by:0175DA2B 10/03/2007 15:50:08 GMT
   They are used in the Alpha Rex model in the retail kit, connecting to a socket in another piece. See the building guide for it at http://www.legoeducation.info/nxt/resources/building-guides/



3. Message by: CyberPueoz2946 10/04/2007 17:46:05 GMT
   A good resource for thosse wanting to know the names of the pieces is this book I borrowed from the library Unofficial Lego Builder's Guide by Allen Bedford. Shows pictures and names.

Discussion: Can we use? By: hoffman1702 11/15/2007 03:37:00 GMT
Can we use the red or blue balls that come with the kit? They are originally designed as an object to use in a little game the robot "plays," but one of our kids has used the ball as a third wheel in the robot design. I don't think the ball says EGO on it, but it came with the kit.

Also, can you use the netting from last year's challenge set?

I checked the UFAQ but saw nothing that addresses these pieces directly.

Thanks,

Cynthia

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 12:46:36 GMT
   The balls are DUPLO and are valid LEGO parts. Back in No Limits, a bunch of the balls were used as mission elements. The net is legal LEGO as well.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: Mindstorm Molecules 236 10/14/2007 00:02:04 GMT
   Same question re: the "scorpion claws"? Legit for use? Is there any piece that came in the NXT kit that can't be used?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/14/2007 02:08:04 GMT
   
   Parts from an NXT kit that can't be used:
   1) The various boxes and packaging.
   2) The twisties that held the cables together
   3) The plastic trays for holding parts
   4) The instruction booklet(s)
   5) The software CD and its case. You may use the disk to install (and then use) the NXT-G program but you may not use the disk as a building element.
   
   
   
   LEGO building elements from the LEGO, DUPLO, or BIONICLES are all legal if in factory original condition. That would include the scorpion claws.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: Mindstorm Molecules 236 10/14/2007 04:23:16 GMT
   Same question re: the "scorpion claws"? Legit for use? Is there any piece that came in the NXT kit that can't be used?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/14/2007 14:57:53 GMT
   Same answer as before.
   
   -Skye



3. Message by: patriots1177 11/15/2007 03:15:46 GMT
   Can we utilize a pull back motor provided in a LEGO Racer set independent of the robot base to construct a device to send the hydrogen car to the house or the pick-up truck to the farm after getting it back to the parking lot, understanding that it could not be attached to either vehicle itself?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/15/2007 03:37:00 GMT
   Yes you may with certain constraints.
   
   You may wind the motor manualy before and during the match.
   
   Your ROBOT must release the windup.
   
   The ROBOT must release the windup after it has fully left the base.
   
   -Skye

Discussion: Gluing Team's Robot By: crazybots1334 11/04/2007 05:58:20 GMT
Are we allowed to glue the lego pieces together on our own robot to prevent it from falling apart during the competition? - Rob

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/14/2007 14:59:06 GMT
   Perhaps you should carefully read the rules including rule 7.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: panteras261 10/14/2007 20:15:00 GMT
   you may not glue them but you can lego string them



2. Message by:0222520A 10/15/2007 07:45:22 GMT
   If you need to glue the robot together to prevent it falling apart it is probably too flimsy to perform well. A flimsy robot will not drive straight or turn repeatably.



3. Message by: lightsavers2634 11/04/2007 05:58:11 GMT
   If your robot is falling apart, I would look into a more robust design. You can purchase some wonderful books about building with the NXT system.
   
   -David (the kid)

Discussion: Rookie Team with weak building skills By: victormindstormmaniacs7141 10/29/2007 18:55:51 GMT
I am coaching a rookie team of 11 year old boys. They seem to have no idea how to build at all. Are there any resources out there that will help them learn about how to build things with moving parts? (especially gears!)

Thanks!

-Christine
Mindstorm Maniacs

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 12:53:18 GMT
   The the online book "Building LEGO robots for FLL" available here: http://www.hightechkids.org/index.php?2-1-1071
   
   -Skye



1. Message by:0175DA2B 10/23/2007 03:40:00 GMT
   Also search for the Lego Constructopedia. It might or might not help.
   
   After 7 weekly after-school sessions, our rookie group of 11-year-olds gave up today. This challenge was overwhelming, even for the adults. We spent our time today just "playing Legos" and programming crazy stuff and it was genuinely fun. I hope to loan out the NXT kits to their families over the coming year to keep their interests up. Maybe we will try again next year, but y'know, for the high cost of registration and the field setup kit, we could probably find ways to have fun building more practical or cool things.
   
   I plan to attend our local competition as a spectator, and there's a nonzero chance that one or two dedicated kids might decide that they really want to work to complete the challenge over the next two Saturdays, but I can only push and encourage them so much.
   
   Anyone other rookie teams bailing out? Was this year's challenge unusually confusing? Do any winning teams meet only 2 hours per week for two months?



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/23/2007 10:35:50 GMT
   Tony,
   
   I am really sad to read your message and I hope that you will reverse your decision!
   
   FLL is NOT about winning. There are NO losers!
   
   Competing in the FLL is a journey to get the kids interested in engineering, ict and technique. It is about teambuilding, about doing things together, researching, presenting, creating a robot, programming* That experience is so important.
   
   In our rookie year we had a robot that could do 2 missions, but our team members were as proud as the robot award winning team. We did not have an idea how the project was supposed to be done. Each team can do their own thing, even if there is an elaborate project description this year, it is up to the team to decide what, how and how much time is needed.
   
   If you reverse your decision and enter the competition, You will see that your team will be winners (even if low down in the scores, that really does not matter at all)
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/23/2007 12:39:32 GMT
   I fully support Coach-D's comments.
   
   i Do any winning teams meet only 2 hours per week for two months?
   
   How do you want to define winning? If that means being the World Champion; no. Top teams meet on and off all year for several years. During the season they are likely to put in at least 6 hours a week in meetings plus homework. I am aware of one top team whose students put in nearly 40 hours a week.
   
   If you define winning as learning something and getting excited about science and engineering, than you can do that in just 45 minutes a week.
   
   Yes this year's challenge was less than straight forward. For veterans it was a welcome change. For rookies, I can imagine is was confusing. But even with all the complexity, there are at least a few very simple missions that just need a buldozer mission.
   
   Just focus on ONE of those and get your team to a competition. NOTHING speaks to a student like the excitement of an FLL competition.
   
   -Skye



3. Message by: 10/23/2007 21:39:31 GMT
   Deleted



4. Message by: 10/23/2007 21:45:48 GMT
   Deleted



5. Message by:0222520A 10/23/2007 21:51:44 GMT
   I understand wanting to bail. Two years ago I ran two rookie teams through a community education class. My daughter wanted to do FLL, and it was the only way I could think of to form a team. I had 19 kids. We met after school for two hours two times a week. I could not get these kids to focus on anything. Most of my time was spent herding cats and cleaning up. FLL was too free form for this large a group with this little supervision. Eventually I gave up and decided to teach a robot class.
   
   I taught a series of labs that concentrated on building models that demonstrated mechanical and programming principles. The kids built models/robots using building instructions I supplied. Programming was done the same way, copying programs I had written. After each lab we did experiments, modifying the models or programs and observing the effects of the changes.
   
   After five weeks the kids started to calm down and show interest in building a robot for competition. A small group even expressed an interest in doing the research project. With two weeks to go before the tournament we switched back to FLL mode and built two robots for competition. We also created two research groups that would meet on Tuesday and Friday nights (our regular meetings were Monday and Wednesday).
   
   Three days before our tournament we had two robots that could reliably do 1 mission. We also had a rough research presentation for one team. The day before the tournament I had 8 kids over to my house for a 6 hour marathon session. We added 3 more missions, and two of the kids sat down and wrote two research presentations. One for their own team, and one for the other team. Not only did they write a script, but also a bibliography, props and visual aids.
   
   I only remember one thing about that incredibly hectic day. We were sitting around one of the practice tables playing with the robots (which could now each do 6 missions!). A tournament official came around and gave us our score sheets because I had forgotten to grab them after the awards ceremony. I pulled out the sheets and read the comments and scores to the kids. We had finished last and second to last (but one team got 4th place for programming). I was expecting much wailing an gnashing of teeth.
   
   One of the kids said "Heck, I don't care because that was a lot of fun." The others all agreed and started talking about the good things they had seen other teams doing, and how they were going to have to work harder next year and start earlier. I thought they were going to be devastated, but they all wanted to do it again. Many were hoping we could just continue on having the after school classes!
   
   The following year four of those kids formed their own team with two parents coaching. My daughter formed her own team with three of her friends. They advanced to the state tournament where they got the highest score in research quality. Every time I bump into one of those kids they say "Hi!" and ask if I'm going to do "that LEGO thing again because it was really fun."
   
   As a coach our expectations are often much different than the expectations of those we coach. Our criteria for success is unlikely to be the same as theirs. A trophy or award is a fun thing to win, but it pales in comparison to a day of playing with friends and eating junk food.
   
   Good luck with whatever you decide.
   
   Dean Hystad



2. Message by: PowerStackers 10/23/2007 14:33:00 GMT
   Missions are only 25% of the total score. There are both quarters at project and teamwork.
   
   There are lot of things to learn in the Project for the team, as well as the coach (like myself). That's how keep me coaching. I am researching and learning new things with the team every year. This is a big WINNER already.
   Christine and Tony, don't give up. At lease participate at the Regional tournament. Experience the fun of it.
   
   Two hours a week is not enough. There are so many things to learn. This is our 3 years. We have 4-hr meeting on Saturday. Now I start to add a 2-hr meeting on the weekday. I still find not enough time. But we are all learning, of course the Time Management.
   
   Coach Chu
   PowerStackers



3. Message by:0175DA2B 10/23/2007 22:27:03 GMT
   I ran an after-school activity with most of these kids as fifth graders last year. We bought retail kits, built the various robots from the instructions in the software, made a Tribot dance, and solved a few simple challenges. They had fun and learned a lot. I decided to give the FLL challenge a try with some of them this fall.
   
   A few things going against us: The kickoff was too early in the school year, we met after school when kids really need a break, teachers and other parents were not available to help, I had a few disruptive kids, the rules and instructions were confusing, and the project was going to be more work than fun.
   
   I sent an email to the parents and I'm still hoping the 2 or 3 kids who really want to do something get together with my son at our house for some last-minute marathon sessions before the competition. It just became obvious that meeting after school was no longer holding the whole group's interest. If nothing else, we will watch the local event and maybe that will get them fired up for next year.



4. Message by: CGMSC745 10/29/2007 18:55:51 GMT
   Victor
   
   I understand your plight. Trying to do everything that you would like with a rookie team and only a couple hours a week just won't work.
   
   Robot design is complex. Add in teaching things like strength, speed, gear ratios, sensors etc. and you have about ten times more stuff to do than time to do it.
   
   My suggestion is about the same as what others have said. Pick an choose what you do. For a rookie team it would be entirely understandable to say "not enough time (or expertise) to design a 'bot from scratch so we'll just use the robot design that came with the set". For NXTs there is an OK design in the book, for RCXs there are a couple good designs in the Constructopedia.
   
   Build that design and then ask the kids which of the challenges can we do with just that basic robot. Usually, there are a least one or two challenges that require nothing but a very simple robot. This year, any robot that can move should be able to do the satellite challenge, just drive the robot over there and run into it. You can probably also do the trees since they just need to be pushed straight out from base. What about the power towers or dam?
   
   This approach is very do-able even in two hours per week. You won't win the national championship but you'll learn stuff, get stuff done and have some fun.
   
   If you get the easy challenges done, then ask the kids what simple things can we do to the basic robot that might let us do one of the more complex challenges? If you attach a couple "pointy sticks" to the front of the robot can you coral the corn and bring it back to base? Keep adding simple things until you run out of time or missions.
   
   After your first year you'll have a core of kids (and coaches!) returning that have been through it before. They've seen how the tournament goes, they've seen other teams 'bots. They have an idea about what would make their robot better (make it faster, stronger, smaller, smarter ... we have the technology). Or, if time is still limiting then just use the same robot again.
   
   In terms of how to approach solving missions the first thing to learn is the KISS principle. Each year I give a ~30 minute talk to my kids about how to approach solving missions. I call it the "Tools that are simpler than simple tools" talk, or "How would a caveman solve this mission?" talk.
   
   Beginners, kids and coaches, tend to over-intellectualize their solutions. So, the "tools that are simpler than simple tools" are just;
   
   1. A rock (the basic caveman tool). Your robot is the rock. Can you solve the mission by just running into it? (Bash it with the rock.)
   
   2. A pointy stick (a slightly more advanced caveman tool). Can you attach an axle (a pointy stick) to the front of the robot and use it to spear something (this year's corn?), or reach into a small space to push something (this year's rail car trigger)?
   
   3. A basket or pot (perhaps the first tool discovered by cavemen after "a rock" and "a pointy stick"). Baskets are useful for delivering loose object out onto the mat. Put a low front edge on the basket and make it into a dust-pan and use it to scoop up things to bring back to base (this years corn?).
   
   4. "The flaming wall of doom." A bulldozer blade, doesn't quite fit into the "caveman" model but it is a very simple idea. A flat surface on the front of the robot will let it push stuff around easily.
   
   In my experience these four approaches will solve nearly every FLL challenge. Each year there will only be one, or at most two, challenges that cannot be solved with these four approaches.
   
   The tricky part not covered by the "tools simpler than simple tools" is navigation of the robot. There are some missions that require fairly complex navigation, and some that require nothing more than driving straight for a short distance. With a rookie team, or when time is limited, just do the missions that don't require complex navigation.

Discussion: Getting robot to drive straight By: technodweebs1601 10/26/2007 18:59:43 GMT
When our robot moves in a straight line, it seems like the two wheels are always trying to catch up with each other by making adjustments. It's a very jerky motion. We've tried different diameter wheels, but that doesn't help. It's not that the robot isn't balanced, because it happens even when it's stripped down to just the basic symmetrical frame. Any suggestions?

1. Message by: crazycreators252 10/26/2007 18:59:43 GMT
   The problem could be due to your motors not running at exactly the same speed. I have 11 motors - none of them run at the same speed.
   
   The Move command uses the feedback from the rotation sensors to help the robot drive strait. This was done to overcome the RCX's problem of mismatched motors causing the robot to drift right or left (they never went exactly strait).
   
   The NXT Move command runs the robot and monitors the rotation sensors from both motors, If one motor is running faster than the other the faster motor is slowed down to compensate. Thats why, when you use the Move command for motors on 2 ports and you disconnect one motor, the other motor stops to wait for the other motor to catch up. This can be a cause of the wiggle.
   
   Also see //FLL International Forum // UNITED STATES // FLL Equipment Discussions // Motor Questions in this forum.
   
   
   Dave,
   Coach
   Team 252

Discussion: Robot design By: robocards522 12/18/2007 03:11:21 GMT
We are a "newbie" team....we tested several robot designs, but the kids have decided to stick with the design that is built with the instructions that come with the kit....will that be allowed?

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/17/2007 23:18:17 GMT
   You would not believe the number of teams that use the "tribot" design the first year. There is sooooo much to learn that picking a 'proven' design makes sense. So the answer is: Yes, it will be allowed.
   
   On the other hand, as a tech judge this is one thing I look for and mark down for. If the robot is stock and shows no team modifications then they will suffer in the creative sections.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: Team4287 12/18/2007 03:11:21 GMT
   The key here is modifications.
   
   The "tribot" design is a great starter design and begs to be modified (wheels, computer orientation, pivot wheel, 3rd motor placement, attachments, addition structural support, etc).
   
   Last year my team started with this design and by the end of season it had morphed into something that had no resemblance to original "tribot" design.
   
   This year, they made a list of the things they liked and didn't like and created a whole new originally designed compact robot. This activity took them 3 practice sessions to complete (6 hours or 3/4 of a month). Or in other words, it was expensive for them to create a new robot from scratch.
   
   Hope this helps out in putting things into perspective.
   
   Stephen
   CO FLL Coach

---

Folder: Motor Questions 01/25/2008 00:31:24 GMT


Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:59:53 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

Discussion: Our robot has a wiggle. Is it the motors? By: Hopkins3256 11/02/2007 19:20:12 GMT
As our robot moves it has a little wiggle--almost like a side-to-side vibration. We checked balance and for loose parts and all is good. Then one of the kids noticed that the axles wiggle. This is hard to describe, but I'll try... When looking at the motors, the orange part that turns the axle wiggles. In other words, it has a sloppy connection to the white part of the motor. Is this our problem? Do we need new motors? Our set it just a year old but we ran it pretty hard last year. All three motors are the same.

1. Message by: Team4287 09/28/2007 08:30:23 GMT
   It is difficult to assist you in debugging issues especially hardware ones without actually looking at the robot. As a coach you want the students to have the best opportunity at a tournament yet at the same time you want them to learn and do a lot of work on their own.
   
   So with that said here are some guidelines you can follow to assist the team in determining what maybe the problem (ultimately you want to isolate the problem):
   
   1) Replace the wheels with a complete different set of wheels (including the wheel axles). Run the robot again. If it goes away then you found the problem.
   
   2) Place a axle and a large wheel in a motor and have the student spin that motor at various speeds, while of course holding the robot off the table. You are looking for wiggles and vibration. If there is an issue, you could potentially see the wheel spinning with a wobble. If this is the case then the motor could be bad.
   
   3) If you believe you found one of the motors replace it with the third motor that is not associated with moving it on the table. If you have one bad motor, this should address the problem.
   
   4) If the problem still exists after step three then most likely the robot has another error source that is causing an issue. If you have a third wheel, temporarily replace it with a "stub" lego post with a smooth bottom surface. The purpose is to "drag" the post on the map and see if the robot goes in a straight line (i.e., you will be replacing the wheel with the post). If the robot goes in a straight line then the error source is the third wheel.
   
   5) Are both motors parallel to each other.
   
   Now while I did give you a lot of things to look at it is your responsibility as a coach to NOT DO IT FOR THE KIDS.
   
   Talk with them and assist them in solving this problem. If they can't solve the wiggle, then maybe then can find creative ways to compensate for it.
   
   Who knows, they might decide to exaggerate the wiggle and make it a wobble and make the robot look like a duck. Even with this configuration I am sure you will be successful.
   
   Note: Last year I work with the kids for 1.5+ hours to figure out why the robot would miss the mission objective by 3 to 6 inches each time they attempt it. For me it was easy to see (they never started in the same place each time) but I had them all run the mission over and over again looking for what maybe causing the problem.
   
   By the end of the day, the team members were closer and they all learn how it is important to be consistent. In addition, they learned how to be observant and give and accept constructive advice, as well as, solve issues with their other missions.
   
   Ultimately, what I am trying to say is worry less about the robot and more about how the students work together and find creative ways to solve the problem. For at the end of the season, the robot will be taken apart and forgotten, but the lessons learned and you actions will not.
   
   Hope this helps a little and good luck.
   
   -- Stephen
   Coach
   CO FLL
   MeteorStorm



1. Message by: 09/28/2007 17:20:16 GMT
   Deleted



2. Message by: crazycreators252 09/28/2007 17:25:25 GMT
   Hopkins3256,
   
   Stephen provides sound advice and I have another thought.
   I assume the robot is driven with an NXT and you are using NXT-G software.
   
   The problem could be due to your motors not running at exactly the same speed. I have 11 motors - none of them run at the same speed. I ran a test where I ran each motor for 10 seconds while monitoring the rotation sensor value. I actually ran the motor for 14 seconds but only counted rotation sensor degrees 2 seconds after it started and 2 seconds before it stopped to remove the acceleration and deceleration variables. My team then selected for the robot's drive motors: not the fastest motors but the motors that ran the closest speeds.
   
   The Move command uses the feedback from the rotation sensors to help the robot drive strait. This was done to overcome the RCX's problem of mismatched motors causing the robot to drift right or left (they never went exactly strait).
   
   The NXT Move command runs the robot and monitors the rotation sensors from both motors, If one motor is running faster than the other the faster motor is slowed down to compensate. Thats why, when you use the Move command for motors on 2 ports and you disconnect one motor, the other motor stops to wait for the other motor to catch up. So instead of a drift you now get a wiggle.
   
   Dave,
   Coach
   Team 252



3. Message by: Hopkins3256 10/02/2007 05:16:48 GMT
   Wow, thanks Stephen and Dave. You both gave me some really good starting points for our session tomorrow. Stephen, I totally agree with you that the real value in this program is the lessons the kids learn about themselves and each other. This is our second year and I still have much so learn about programming, etc. but I know that even if the kids never find the source of the wiggle, they'll find a lot of other things they weren't even looking for!
   Linda
   Coach
   Hopkins Elementary



4. Message by: Team4287 10/02/2007 08:14:22 GMT
   Linda,
   
   Your welcome.
   
   Last year, I was asked to be a coach 2 weeks into the season and had to quickly come up to speed on what was FLL (never heard of it) and all of its logistics. Personally, I know how overwhelming it can be for a first year coach. Because of that, I volunteer as much of my time as possible working with the other coaches.
   
   For me personally the hardest part of being the coach is not the missions, but working with the kids. My objective is to teach them skills and how to think about addressing a problem (not solve it for them). This includes:
   
   * Time management - e.g., write down how long you think it will take to solve a mission and how long it actually did
   * Priorities - Your family, schooling, and homework comes before FLL practice.
   * Teamwork - All members are team up to do various missions
   * Communications - Tell the team / partner what you want to do and why (as opposed to just doing it).
   * Setting expectations - e.g., A good season is getting 1/2 of the missions done.
   
   And to have the kids walk away at the end of the season knowing that they had fun.
   
   F.Y.I., Plan 1-2 weeks after the season to just relax. Last year, I was exhausted and didn't want to look at another Lego.
   
   Do get back with us on what you ultimately found / did.
   
   Stephen
   Coach
   CO FLL
   MeteorStorm



5. Message by: Hopkins3256 10/14/2007 04:44:24 GMT
   Hey, I just want to report back that the kids came up with several changes. They improved the balance and gave the axles some support and one kid discovered that the rubber on one of the tires wasn't on perfectly. And I think another kid did something to the pivot wheel. Everyone got in on the action. I don't know which change did the trick but it now runs without the wiggle. Whew! Dave, I did check the speed of the motors too and they are not perfect but we were using the two that were the closest.
   
   Thanks much!
   Linda



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/14/2007 15:00:12 GMT
   Thanks for reporting back. This is good news.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: lightsavers2634 11/02/2007 18:36:50 GMT
   "F.Y.I., Plan 1-2 weeks after the season to just relax. Last year, I was exhausted and didn't want to look at another Lego."
   
   What!!!!! How could you even consider doing that when you have a whole field-kit to tear apart and play with?!?!? For the past three years it's been a tradition with our team to take apart the field kit the day after the competition and build as many cool looking models, mechanisms, and thing-a-ma-bobbers before we run out of parts.
   
   -David (the kid)



1. Message by: Team4287 11/02/2007 19:20:12 GMT
   I agree with David, plan to relax. It took me a few months.
   
   During the season last year, another coach and I wanted to setup a little competition between us with our own (Coache's) robot design. We thought it might be fun to implement what we thought the robot should be (as opposed to the teams).
   
   Well, the season was over and both of us didn't want to touch the robot until well into the spring. It is truly amazing how draining coaching is. Unfortunately, by that time we had other activities and never got to have our "mini" competition.
   
   Stephen
   CO FLL Coach
   MeteorStorm

Discussion: how do we increase the power of the motors so that they can move more weight? By: energetics1684 11/30/2007 06:13:58 GMT
how do we increase the power of the motors so that they can move more weight. will gears help?

thx.

1. Message by: SmithRams3589 10/29/2007 21:50:13 GMT
   gear ratio. You will lose some speed but you gain torque.



1. Message by:0222520A 10/29/2007 23:26:39 GMT
   Gears won't increase power, but they can increase torque. Put a small gear on the motor and a big gear on the thing you want to turn (maybe an arm?). The motor gear will spin a lot faster than the gear on the arm. What you get in return for that decrease in speed is an increase in torque.
   
   The relationship in size between the gears determines the speed loss/torque increase. If the large gear is 3 times bigger than the small gear (like a 24 tooth gear and an 8 tooth gear) you turn 3 times slower, and 3 times stronger. What happens if you use an 40 tooth gear an an 8 tooth gear? What happens if you use two gears the same size?
   
   I miss that gears are not needed as much with the NXT as they were with the RCX. I think that was LEGO's biggest mistake with the NXT design, but I think I'm in a minority with that opinion.
   
   Good Luck,
   
   Dean Hystad



1. Message by: Team4287 10/29/2007 23:58:40 GMT
   Dean,
   
   You are not in the minority. In fact, there are a lot of advantages that the RCX has over the NXT, gears is just one of them.
   
   -- Stephen



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 19:08:31 GMT
   If you want serious power:
   use the 5292 'Electric RC Race Buggy Motor'
   check www.peeron.com to get an idea!
   
   "there is NO substitute for cubic inches" (old fashioned chinese saying I believe)
   
   By the way it is completely legal to use them in FLL this season.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/17/2007 19:30:12 GMT
   Although the rules do not explicitly mention the types of motors you can use, I do know from experience that only the motors that come with NXT/RCX kits are legal. In the past, FIRST has ruled that the 9 volt non-geared and the micro motors were not legal. I can only assume that the same would be true of any other motor including the buggy motors. But I would read rule 34 and follow the instructions there.
   
   As for pushing more weight with a given motor, you will need to investigate gears. With gears you can trade speed for torque/power. You will go slower, but you could push a mountain.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 21:33:45 GMT
   Hi Skye,
   
   It is my pleasure to totally disagree with you. (nothing personal).
   But I would like to point to Rules 23 & 7. I do not question your authority, but you are right indeed, in earlier years the motors were mentioned with specs and even with a picture!
   
   This season it is only stated *3 motors*
   
   You Were right saying *I do know from experience that only the motors that come with NXT/RCX kits are legal. In the past, FIRST has ruled that the 9 volt non-geared and the micro motors were not legal* but the assumption that this will still be the case is based on air not on facts! (until last season okay, not anymore)
   
   We are living now and not in the past, so we apply Rule 23 after reading Rule 7, we are confident and will not need to use a Rule 34 for confirmation.
   
   I really like this and wonder if the community will join this discussion.
   What can I say ? Oh by the way I also happen to like Chinese food.
   
   by the way we want speed AND power no downgearing to get more torque, we want absolute brutal power with a big P we want to give the Dyno a real challenge
   "there is absolutely no substitute for cubic inches"
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/17/2007 22:05:42 GMT
   I agree that on the surface it would seem that any motor is legal. That was the way it was a few years ago when I asked FIRST about the micro motor. I was told no. The motors in the material rule were those in the kit not any generic motor. There was even discussion about the difference between the 'new' and the 'old' geared motor and that was decided in the favor of any.
   
   Again, I do not know the answer. Experience says no, but the only way to know for sure is to use rule 34.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 22:42:16 GMT
   No hard feelings Skye,
   
   I just asked around in the team, consensus was NOT to ask and pursue using Rule 23.
   Sometimes one must be confident, we are!
   
   It will be challenging for the referees/judges. As long we will not knock the borders of the tables,(field damage) we're okay I think.
   
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/17/2007 22:43:36 GMT
   Just as way of explanation as to my OPINION read QA8 here:
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=15920
   
   The rules only said motors, the QA said only the motors that come with a kit. I see no reason that FIRST would change their minds, but that is what rule 34 is for!
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 22:53:15 GMT
   Skye,
   
   That was precisely the picture of the motor I was referring to in my earlier post. This is from Ocean Odyssey, so 2 seasons ago. Then it was totaly clear what motor was allowed. But that really is HISTORY.
   
   I can add that not only the missions have changed, but more important the complete set of Rules.
   
   Or are you going to tell me that last years rules are still valid. Then we can move arms when leaving base, that really would make life easier...
   
   No sorry; history = history. We are competing in the Power Puzzle challenge and the Missions, Rules and Q&A's are clear by now.
   
   like to get feedback.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/18/2007 00:29:56 GMT
   D,
   
   You have me very confused. The RC Dune Buggy motor is this:
   http://www.peeron.com/inv/parts/5292
   The motor from OO was the normal RCX motor like this:
   http://www.mozzarella.jp/mindstorms/shade/motor.jpg
   
   These two motors are very very different.
   
   But you are correct. QA8 was indeed for OO and not for PP. And we will not know the answer till someone asks FIRST. It is my GUESS that the answer will come back you can only use the motors that came in an FLL robot kits. Either the old RCX motor (of either variety) or the new NXT motors. But that is just a guess.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/18/2007 12:10:02 GMT
   Skye,
   
   You are probably right in your way of thinking. I agree and I think as well that First meant it that way. But they only forgot to write it down. The result of that omission is that they have to approve the exotic Lego motors. Because they can not rule out these so late in the season.
   That would be too harsh on teams that were creative and totally within the rules. ( I see a parallel in the way First handled jigs last season, they wanted to rule them out, but they couldn't do that because they were simply too late)
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/29/2007 09:58:48 GMT
   Team decided to use the *regular motors* after receiving so many emails / opinions.
   (by the way it gave us only 8 seconds more time) We will enter the competition using the geared 9v only (3x 71427c01). The content in the reactions stopped our creative solution although we applied the rules, and stayed within, using no loopholes whatsoever. As somebody wrote in another topic : *what a bunch of killjoys!* .
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: 11/29/2007 13:51:08 GMT
   Deleted



2. Message by: lightsavers2634 11/30/2007 06:13:58 GMT
   I'm glad you made the change. Although my personal ruling would be to allow them, using a strategy in such a grey area is asking for trouble. Wishing you well in just two more days! (Boy does time fly). Good Luck!
   
   -David (the kid)



3. Message by: PowerStackers 11/19/2007 23:11:21 GMT
   Hi, everyone,
   
   Seem like the wordings in the chat in the forum is getting un-professional. Please, we have FLL team members read the forum. We should post a professional example for them.
   
   Regarding the motor use, we should consult with the FIRST for the final decision, rather than taking a survey from the participants (which we can only guess) to assume.
   
   For my opinion and to be fair to all teams around World, motors should only be from the MindStorm kits. And the building blocks can be any legal LEGO pieces. It will be a fair game for every team to brainstorm themselves to build a good robot. Not using a better and more powerful part to win during the competition.
   
   This is my 2 cents. Hopefully no one will target at me!! :)
   
   PowerStackers Coach Chu



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/20/2007 00:33:09 GMT
   Hi coach Chu,
   
   thanks for the invitation.
   
   If I used wordings in this forum that are in your opinion *un-professional* then I apologize. But actually I didn*t find them, even after reading all postings again. ( perhaps being a foreigner has something to do with that..)
   
   My team, a veteran team has always been looking for loopholes, alternative strategies for missions. But we make sure that we are within the rules. And yes we use Rule 23 a lot. This is fairly common practise in FLL. It is a misunderstanding that you have to ask for permission. The forum is and can be used for sharing these nice strategies.
   
   Further FLL is not fair at all, you have rookie teams competing veteran teams on all disciplines, but hey everybody, has been a rookie once, so that will balance the unfairness in the end. ( I can tell you very funny stories from our first entry)
   
   There are so to say two schools in FLL. The *normals* that read the challenge and take the more or less obvious route, I think you are among them. And then you have the teams that are thinking outside the box. Not only in robotics but also in the project. My team will not consider another approach than the out of the box way.
   
   We have decided to use everything and every strategy that is not forbidden, the big motors are in.
   
   By the way, no targeting, only giving a clear answer.
   These were my 2 eurocents
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 11/20/2007 22:22:44 GMT
   Here is another data point for you D:
   
   As Head Referee, I would disqualify your robot for illegal parts. Because I would almost certainly get complaints about unfairness if I did not. And fairness is what the FLL needs to have if it will continue. If you wait for the tournament to find this out, you are making a mistake now for your team.
   
   This is just my opinion, and you probably aren't coming to my tournament. But on tournament day, my opinion is the last one that counts.
   
   --Jack Gregory



4. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/21/2007 15:06:02 GMT
   Hi Jack,
   
   We discussed your posting in our meeting. The team thinks totally different, I*ll try to communicate that. The FLL is a competition that is promotes scientific-, engineering-, academic-, skills as well as attitude building. And it has a big FUN element.
   
   As everything in life this game has a set of Rules and the Q&A as interpretation aid that makes Rulings as well, as soon as they are published. We are sure that the above is the framework that everybody should follow. Teams, judges and (head-) referees. That is the way it should be.
   
   Further, the team will do almost everything to be different from the crowd. We will do acts during the day, do different presentations, and we go TO the edge in engineering. If something can be done in an alternative way, that usually is our first choice.
   
   Jack, I personally think that you made a bad judgement in your last post. It is not what people may expect from a head referee. The *muscle talk* tone, I really think that is not at all appropriate. But I think the worse part is that you neglect the rules and force your own opinion on the forum. If you really take your volunteering function serious, you should have posed this question yourselves for judging at the Q&A department. The outcome would then be published, and depending on the outcome you would have had the means to make your call as head referee.
   That would be much better than your *power play!*, only based on your personal view and not on Rules and Rulings.
   There is absolutely nothing illegal in using these different motors, it just is in your opinion, nothing more. Stick to the facts please.
   
   This team will do everything for a wow-factor!
   For your information, we have once been disqualified in an official tournament by a over enthusiastic head referee ( for 15 minutes), but we won the champions award at the same tournament because the team was able to demonstrate that they were operating within the rules. Facts/rules/Q&A. Thus also showing that we really are teamworking and researching properly as well.
   
   We hope to make it to Atlanta this year, perhaps a possibility to chat further on this subject. No hard feelings and let the games begin.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 11/22/2007 00:47:43 GMT
   Doede:
   
   I welcome your criticism. My tone probably comes across a little harsh in writing. Perhaps yours does too.
   
   When I am at a tournament, and am faced with something that is not defined, not in the QA, not seen before, I don't have the opportunity to write to Scott and ask him. I have to make the call. This happens at every tournament.
   
   That is essentially what you are proposing to do: to force the issue on the day of the event. I told you how I would rule today, in the absence of additional information. I thought you might want to be aware that your opinion of what is fair to all teams at the tournament just might not be shared by the Head Ref, not to mention 1000 other people at the event.
   
   And, by rule, the Head Ref is the final call.
   
   Now, you may be all proud and self-righteous to be fighting this fight, but if I were you, I would consider a backup plan should the electrical parts you are considering be declared illegal.
   
   --Jack Gregory



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/22/2007 14:26:34 GMT
   Jack,
   
   I really do appreciate your last answer. We think differently about these questions, and it is nice that you are clear defining what would be your call.
   
   Is it right if I think that you are in favour of skipping Rule 23 altogether and prescribing in detail the way missions should be done?
   
   So no alternative actuating of missions, as they are often qualified as *unfair* by other teams and the public? If that is so, that will take out the creativity aspect from the FLL. As you know I think that out of the box thinking is most important.
   
   As you perhaps know, Skye Sweeney has asked a ruling from Scott Evans. Scott came back with this : *His (Scotts-D) reply was that the policy had not changed, but that he was hesitant to add yet another Q&A since this was the first time this year it was asked* (end quote email Skye)
   
   And don*t worry, we always have a backup, but most of all we have a Fun time! Just take a look on our bi-lingual site. We just held our project presentation and the conclusions were welcomed by the city counsel.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



5. Message by: lightsavers2634 11/21/2007 22:39:30 GMT
   I was under the impression that the RCX didn't supply enough current for the buggy motors. (seeing that the battery box is not allowed) Or are you using converter cables with the NXT? Anyway I'd love to see a video of one of your runs after the season is over.
   
   -David (the kid)



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/21/2007 22:48:07 GMT
   Hi David,
   
   At this very moment Scott Evans is being consulted on this very theme. We as you can read are sure this all is within the rules. Others have a different opinion. Personally I think that one must live by the Rules. RCX and do not use the brand with the pink rabbits.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/22/2007 23:55:13 GMT
   David,
   
   Re reading these postings I saw that I didn't answer all your questions. For all PP missions to be done you'll have to think that 6 "topbrand" AA alkalines (RCX) will be sufficient for 4-6 sorties (complete game - all missions)Using 2x5292 big motors for propulsion and 1x the "normal 9v geared motor"for the PTO. They actually last longer but just to be sure that they act optimal. the used AA's can be used later for other things as well.



6. Message by: GMT
   

Discussion: Change in direction rotation By: nls4965 12/05/2007 16:27:53 GMT
Not sure exactly how to explain this. All of our programs that involve the robot turning are all of a sudden off. The robot is rotating too much with no change in programming. we have changed the data wires, swapped out the motors, tried a different NXT with no solution to our problem. Before we start changing the programs, any suggestions as to why this happened?

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/31/2007 02:09:27 GMT
   Did you change the batteries or recharge the pack recently?
   
   Strong batteries will give your bot some extra speed that will goof up all your turns. Yes even if you are using a rotation sensor.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: nls4965 10/31/2007 02:39:43 GMT
   We put it on the charger at the end of each practice. We even changed out the battery with the same result. The funny thing is the programs where the robot only goes straight are just fine.



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/31/2007 04:13:21 GMT
   In that case look for wheel slipage. Your mat may be more or less slippery than before causing you problems.
   
   When turning, do you stop one motor and run the other, or do you reverse one and forward on the other? Have you adjusted power levels? Does the problem happen for both right and left turns? Have you changed the weight or weight distribution of your robot?
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: homebotics1229 10/31/2007 04:08:50 GMT
   We're having a similar issue. After we have used the robot for 2 - 2.5 hours, it starts acting weird and turns start just not working that were working fine 10 minutes earlier . . .
   
   We have tried letting the robot sit and recharge for 15-30 minutes, but it still continued to be in a funk.
   
   My theory is (and this is just my personal theory) that the robot, with lots of weight on it like ours, is affected by the reduced battery strength AND the heat from all the constant, non-stop running (this is in addition to it having computer brain which means it can have a mind of it's own . . . LOL . . . which is akin to teenage brain . . .).
   
   This challenge has become increasingly frustrating for our team b/c they just get rolling on the programming and POOF . . .they have to stop for the rest of the day.
   
   So, I'm looking for more realistic (and less magical) answers to help us resolve robot funk, too. Otherwise, we may be doing much more practicing on our project presentation and more wishing on our table runs :)
   
   Thanks for the help!!
   
   Theresa 8-)



1. Message by: nls4965 10/31/2007 04:25:57 GMT
   Hmm, it almost seems like we have the oppposite problem, but same end result. The programming that we did on Saturday was at the end of a 2 hour session. Everything was working great. So we plug the robot in and when it is fully charged it over-rotates. I hear you about the teenage brain. Ok, teenage robot + teenage&younger kids =
   fried adult brain! The real question is how to get these kids interested in this project.



3. Message by: CGMSC745 11/05/2007 21:37:32 GMT
   How are you measuring the turns?
   
   If the turns are being measured by time then changing battery power, changing amounts of dust on the mat and wheels, hair in the bearings, wheels slipping outwards on the axles etc. will all have an affect on the turns.
   
   If you are using the rotation sensors to measure the turns then battery power level, motor heat and several other things should be much smaller factors. If you are doing high power turns, using the roation sensors to measure the turn, and then coasting at the end of the turn then power level will affect how far the robot overshoots the target rotation.
   
   Another thing to look at if you are using the rotation sensor is exactly how you do the turn. If you use a MOVE block and the turn control slider (which just defines the radius of the turn and not the actual size of the turn) then the 'bot tries to keep the motors synched taking into account the turn slider setting. If you are using individual MOTOR blocks, but only measuring the actual axle rotation of one of the motors, then the turn can change a lot from run to run. As the battery wears down two motors tend to rotate at different speeds and to have different powers. If you are only monitoring the rotation of one of the motors then changes in the relative power of the motors will mess up the turn.



4. Message by: StormCats2927B 12/02/2007 16:28:48 GMT
   We're having similar issues which is highly frustrating. In our case, we're using rotations (not seconds) and are trying to keep the charge between 8.0 and 8.3 (ours fails to charge to 8.4). Even on a full charge, we get inconsistent turns. Sometimes it turns more, sometimes less, and sometimes somewhere in the middle. We're generally pushing the slider all the way to the right or left for turns. Is that bad?
   
   We changed the tires and have no wheel wobble. We're using break instead of coast. The robot is reliably constructed. No wheel slippage I can see. Changing out the motors altered the turns so that it randomly falls in a different range now so the motors you have do seem to affect performance. FYI, never use regular batteries rather than rechargables as the voltage levels change so much it makes programming impossible.
   
   You mentioned measuring turns. The NXT automatically engaged the rotation sensor so we shouldn't have to do anything to turn 1 rotation each time and know it went that far? However, it definitely varies in how far it actually rotates.



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/02/2007 20:21:15 GMT
   You might want to watch two videos at http://www.fll-freak.com/nxt/nxt_index.htm
   
   One is called Drive Straight and the other is Great Circle. Both will demonstrate that dead nuts accuracy is not possible with stock software. But it is an order of magnitude better than an RCX robot.
   
   What this greatly suggests is that dead reconning is not the way to go. Using a combination of dead reconning and landmark navigation is your ultimate best solution. For that you need to learn to use the other sensors.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by:0222520A 12/03/2007 23:18:24 GMT
   There is always wheel slippage. That is something you have to learn to accept. It is worse with fresh batteries and higher power settings because the acceleration is higher. The Move command does not ramp up speed, so you pretty much get full motor torque when you first start moving. The Motor command has a ramp up/ramp down, but it doesn't have the motor synchronization.
   
   Odometry error is cumulative. The more moves you make the worse it gets. There are several tricks that you can use to reset your odometry error, but none of them involve using the rotation sensors.
   
   A small turning error becomes a big positioning error if the turn is followed by a long drive. My girls changed a turn by only 1 degree and then drove 3 feet. They were shocked to see how much this changed the robot's ending position.
   
   A Move ends when the motors rotate the requested amount. But the robot is not at zero velocity at this time. It has to ramp back down, and does so very quickly if the brakes are applied. Given time the robot will correct for the overtravel, but it is difficult to predict how long that will take, and it's not like you have a lot of time to waste. Plus the fast deceleration will cause some wheel slippage, and that cannot be corrected for using the rotation sensors.
   
   Have your team do this test:
   
   Put a Move 1 rotation, coast command inside a loop and have the loop execute 10 times. Starting from the same location
   and mark the ending location for 5 runs.
   
   Change the coast to brake and repeat for 5 more runs.
   
   Add a wait 5 seconds block to the loop and repeat for 5 more runs.
   
   Plot the results and analyze. This is something that all teams should do at the start of the season. You can't use a tool effectively until you understand how it works.



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/03/2007 23:27:13 GMT
   This needs to go into the UFAQ!
   -Skye



5. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/04/2007 08:18:14 GMT
   That is great information, Dean!
   
   We've found that a lot of our "go straight" problems are caused by the inside of the wheels (the tires) rubbing against the body of the bot. The kids have to learn and re-learn and re-learn to use spacers and longer axles to keep the wheels from rubbing.



1. Message by:0222520A 12/05/2007 16:27:53 GMT
   Spacers are also important to keep the track (distance between the left and right wheels) constant. Differental steer robots are very sensitive to changes in track.

Discussion: amount of motors By: 3369Hawks 3 Seven Guys in a Robot 01/25/2008 00:31:24 GMT
how many motors can you have?

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 01/25/2008 00:31:24 GMT
   It all depends on your budget, personally I know people that have more than 25 motors.
   
   But perhaps you wanted to know something different, I would recommend to check Rule 7 Materials:
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=29610
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

---

Folder: NXT Specific Questions 12/18/2007 18:55:33 GMT


Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 21:43:05 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

1. Message by: Baker Bobcats 10/18/2007 21:24:15 GMT
   Are you allowed to use rubber bands to tie up the wires?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/18/2007 21:43:05 GMT
   If they are the LEGO rubber bands.
   
   -Skye

Discussion: Bluetooth Dongles By: victormindstormmaniacs7141 10/25/2007 17:44:39 GMT
I know that you can't use bluetooth for competitions, but we are interested in using it as a timesaver for our practice/programming time. I'm looking at some of the lower end (price range) dongles that are sold at places like Tiger Direct. None of the ones I have seen show up on the list of devices that Lego publishes. Has anyone successfully used any of these lower priced models? (I'd love to buy one in the $15 range rather than the $30 range for the one Lego sells!)

Thanks!

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/30/2007 03:03:43 GMT
   Look at this website
   
   http://www.vialist.com/users/jgarbers/NXTBluetoothCompatibilityList
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: Team4287 09/30/2007 07:55:17 GMT
   If you are not computer savvy, then I would STRONGLY STRONGLY recommend that you get a Lego tested dongle (as suggested by Skye). The dongle that I used last year was a Kensington 33348. It worked great for me.
   
   History:
   When I replaced my laptop this year with a Dell Inspiron (built in bluetooth hardware), the bluetooth drivers that came from Dell DID NOT work with the NXT. After spending 6+ hours getting "alternate" drivers, I was finally able to get it to work.
   
   And yes, the bluetooth connection is GREAT and without a doubt a great time saver.
   
   -- Stephen



2. Message by: 401TechnoBotts2 10/03/2007 21:54:40 GMT
   I thought I was reasonably computer-savvy... So far I've completely failed to get 2 cheap bluetooth dongles (purchased in the UK, where I'm based) to work, so I'm probably going to grit my teeth and shell out for a Lego one. At present my team is using a USB cable with a blue LED in each end, which they all think is marvellous!
   
   My only reservation would be that bluetooth could flatten the batteries faster - is that an issue?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/03/2007 22:25:22 GMT
   Running Bluetooth will indeed flatten the batteries faster. How much faster will depend on how often you use it as well as the type of batteries you use.
   
   My understanding is that BT dongles come with one of two software drivers. One works and one does not. Sometimes the XP built in driver will work, and sometimes you need to install the drivers from the disk that comes with your device.
   
   But than a blue LED USB is just the Cat's Meow!
   
   -Skye



3. Message by: victormindstormmaniacs7141 10/08/2007 14:20:16 GMT
   Update:
   
   I went out and bought an Iogear GBU221WM Bluetooth dongle at Walmart for just under $20. I installed it using the provided drivers and it works great! No more having to plug and unplug the USB cable while programming.
   
   -Christine.



4. Message by: lightningrods2109 10/25/2007 17:44:39 GMT
   I finally purchased the dangle that ego sells for the NET. I have a DELL Inspiron E1505 and the computer is having problems when installing the driver. Go figure!!! Any ideas? I tried going to be site and down loaded the driver, got same message. Something about software written for Windows 95 or later but I do have Windows X. on my computer. I am puzzle but want to figure this out so the team does not spend so much time moving the robot back and forth from table to computer,
   Silvia

Discussion: Batteries for NXT By: 401TechnoBotts2 10/04/2007 01:40:53 GMT
My team is wondering if the LEGO rechargeable batteries are a significant improvement over NiMH AA rechargeables for the NXT, and if they are worth the investment - does anyone have any experience of both please? We've found a lack of reproducibility of turns as the battery voltage drops, particularly with alkaline AA batteries, and also with the NiMH rechargeables (but you can put the latter back into the charger for a quick top-up).

Catherine
Coach for TechnoBotts2 (UK)

1. Message by: zap4702 10/04/2007 01:40:53 GMT
   Our team has been happy with the LEGO rechargeable batteries. They don't give you as much speed as some other battery types due to slightly lower voltage, but they are quite consistent through the life of the charge.
   
   You could look through the equipment discussions from last year, archived in the Forum, as I'm sure this was discussed last year as well.
   
   Doreen,
   Team ZAP!

Discussion: Batteries for NXT By: 401TechnoBotts2 10/03/2007 23:32:53 GMT
My team is wondering if the LEGO rechargeable batteries are a significant improvement over NiMH AA rechargeables for the NXT, and if they are worth the investment - does anyone have any experience of both please? We've found a lack of reproducibility of turns as the battery voltage drops, particularly with alkaline AA batteries, and also with the NiMH rechargeables (but you can put the latter back into the charger for a quick top-up).

Catherine
Coach for TechnoBotts2 (UK)

Discussion: Non-responsive NXT brick By: 5MaaM4328 12/18/2007 18:55:33 GMT
Last night during our team meeting the NXT brick froze and would not turn off. We removed the battery pack and put it back in. Now it won't come on. Tried different batteries and connecting the charger to the pack, no luck. Tried pressing the reset button for 5 seconds, no luck.

Any other ideas? The NXT was working fine before this. Firmware is v 1.05. Who do you contact for technical service help?

Thanks for any suggestions - will be a long season without a functioning NXT!
Karl Krause

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/05/2007 17:28:37 GMT
   You can call Pitsco the LEGO educational division. The phone number is in the back of your Coaches' Handbook.
   
   One your pressed the reset button for five seconds, you now should be able to redowload the firmware. Have you tried that?
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: robodogs2506 12/17/2007 17:21:34 GMT
   Night before our tournament. We've run the NXT since 3pm (without ckg battery pack level) its now 11pm and the programs are working great (under weak battery levels) and the NXT makes a weird noise and quits working. So we called it a night, packed everything up and charged it for the big day.
   
   We get to the tournament and, of course, the programs need tweeking...but the NXT won't take a download (does turn on tho and old programs are there). Error mssg NXT not connected keeps coming up. Panic ensues, the team changed out the brick, loaded programs on new brick and tweeked away - hoping to be ready by table time.
   
   After the tournament we pressed both reset buttons but now get no response from the brick at all...it won't even turn on.
   
   What happened?
   
   'Dawgs



2. Message by: robodogs2506 12/17/2007 17:27:58 GMT
   We've put in double A's - no work, plugged in power cord (altho it was fully charged) - no work - but...now it is beeping a soft digital beep - sounds like a soft version of my alarm clock. It is definitely not a "clicking noise" or a "soft ticking noise". We've had that before too.
   
   Any ideas?
   
   'Dawgs



1. Message by: Mindstorms Mayhem #33 12/17/2007 23:10:22 GMT
   'Dawgs,
   
   Since you have done a full reset on the brick, it now needs to have new firmware programmed into it again. The "clicking brick" symptom is an indicator of that. Plug it in via USB to the computer you use for programming it, and firmware should be automatically downloaded to it.



3. Message by: robodogs2506 12/18/2007 18:45:52 GMT
   We're good! Thanks for the suggestion-it worked.
   
   'Dawgs



1. Message by: Mindstorms Mayhem #33 12/18/2007 18:55:33 GMT
   Glad to be of help!

Discussion: FULL Charge on NXT By: StEugene3069 10/08/2007 22:39:56 GMT
What is the full battery charge on the rechargable NXT brick. We are always using our NXT so we dont have time to constantly charge it.

-Team 3069

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/07/2007 15:19:07 GMT
   I believe that the battery contains 7 cells at 1.2 volts each giving you 8.4 rather than the 9.0 of alkalines.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: CGMSC745 10/08/2007 22:39:56 GMT
   Skye is correct. The maximum voltage with the rechargeable battery pack is the same as what you would get with NiMH rechargable AA batteries, 8.2V or 8.3V,

Discussion: Store bought NXT kit vs. one purchased throug FIRST By: SmithRams3589 11/29/2007 20:47:58 GMT
Hello all,
I am curious, what is the difference between the NXT kit purchased through FIRST and the one you can get at say, Kids R Us?

Thanks,
Jack

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/11/2007 22:32:46 GMT
   The big difference is that the FLL kit comes with a recharable battery and a different assortment of parts. There is a difference in the software help files but not in the "compiler" itself.
   
   -Skye "Should be added the UFAQ" Sweeney



1. Message by: SmithRams3589 10/11/2007 22:43:36 GMT
   Do both come with the same number of Lego parts (ie. wheels, tracks, pieces, etc.)?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 01:30:46 GMT
   From what I understand the assortment of parts is different between the two kits. I beleive that the FLL kit has more and different parts than the consumer version.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 10/13/2007 00:55:50 GMT
   Also, is there a teaching manual that comes with the FLL version? I seem to recall seeing that this is available separately for $43.
   
   I am seeing the consumer version available for as little as $225 (not including shipping). Does anyone know the price of the FLL version?
   
   Yolande



3. Message by:0175DA2B 10/13/2007 01:52:18 GMT
   The educational kit contains fewer overall parts except for having an extra touch sensor, and it includes a plastic holding tray and rechargeable battery. We bought retail versions to use at our school last year. Cheaper, more parts, batteries are cheaper and easier than recharging, and plastic holding trays are cheap to buy. You can buy an extra touch sensor from Lego Education to solve the challenge if you want, but it's not really required.



4. Message by: SmithRams3589 11/29/2007 20:47:58 GMT
   Below is the information I have received. It seems the Education version has quite a bit more.
   
   #8527 LEGO MINDSTORMS NXT SET:
   
   577 total LEGO elements including:
   
   1 - NXT Intelligent Brick
   3 - Servo Motors
   1 - Sound Sensor
   1 - Ultra Sonic Sensor
   1 - Light Sensor
   1 - Touch Sensor
   1 - Single license copy of Retail NXT Software
   
   Packaged in Cardboard disposable container.
   
   *********************
   
   FLL NXT Robot Set ( #9797 & #9648 & #0077):
   
   1102 total LEGO elements including:
   
   1 - NXT Intelligent Brick
   3 - Servo Motors
   1 - Sound Sensor
   1 - Ultra Sonic Sensor
   1 - Light Sensor
   2 - Touch Sensors
   3 - Conversion Cables ( used for interfacing with legacy motors and sensors)
   3 - lamp bricks
   1 - Rechargeable Lithium Battery Pack
   1 - AC Transformer
   1 - Copy of LEGO Education NXT Software, including Team License
   
   Packaged in Plastic re-usable storage tubs w/sorting trays.

Discussion: Firmware By: Highlanders2689 11/23/2007 04:38:46 GMT
I've heard rumors that if you update the firmware too much it can "buggify" or give your robot bugs and take up some of the much needed memory space. Is this rumor true?

1. Message by: Highlanders2689 11/13/2007 02:09:15 GMT
   Is the above rumor true?



1. Message by:0222520A 11/13/2007 07:12:15 GMT
   Maybe if you download the firmware thousands of times. I'm up in the hundred+ range and have had no problems.



2. Message by: hoffman1702 11/13/2007 07:54:26 GMT
   Ok, this begs the question--should I be doing something that I don't know about? Why would you download the firmware?
   
   I've seen nothing other than the program update that we purchased at the beginning of the season.



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/13/2007 14:11:19 GMT
   There are at least a few reasons to reload the firmware.
   
   1) For whatever reason the robot goes nuts. Often a reload will fix whatever got corrupted. Think "reboot your computer".
   
   2) An update to the firmware is available. Use the Help... Check for Updates option to find out what firmware is available. "Think upgrade your OS".
   
   3) Sometimes memory gets fragmented to the point you can't load a large program. I find (at least on RCX) the simplest solution is to reload the firmware at start again. I am not sure if this is needed on NXT.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by:0222520A 11/13/2007 20:26:08 GMT
   I like to write my own firmware. Sometimes I replace the firmware with custom applicaitons. I was also part of the MDP program and we were tasked to do things like trying to see if you could break the software installation or mess up the firmware
   
   Most people will hardly ever need to download firmware.



3. Message by: daVincikidz5782 11/23/2007 04:29:04 GMT
   After updating to NXT v.1.1 our robot is just not executing our programs right. We updated firm ware and re loaded our programs but the lengthier programs just never finish or randomly skip blocks. Does anyone have any idea where we went wrong? Should we do a complete unistall and go back to the old software?



4. Message by: hoffman1702 11/23/2007 04:38:46 GMT
   You might want to look at my earlier post in this area. We ran into this yesterday...it seems that if you use too many move blocks in a row (or something like that)--you have to insert a very short wait block or sound block (half a second) in between. This resets the move block and allows the program to run correctly.
   
   It is a weird error and something I hope they fix somehow...there are some messages in the programming area that I think address the problem, but the above fix should work.
   
   Cynthia

Discussion: Color Sensor On NXT By: Robocats2273 11/13/2007 13:52:21 GMT
I'm guessing the answer is no but are we allowed to use the new color sensor on our competition NXT robot?

1. Message by: Team4287 11/13/2007 05:30:48 GMT
   If you read rule 7 - Materials will will find what is and isn't acceptable for competition.
   
   And yes, you will be pleasantly surprised.
   
   Stephen
   CO FLL Coach



1. Message by:0222520A 11/13/2007 07:14:57 GMT
   I'm not sure why you think there is a pleasant surprise, unless. Color sensors are not allowed.



1. Message by: Team4287 11/13/2007 08:11:18 GMT
   Maybe I missed something here. Isn't the color sensor and the light sensor the same thing?
   
   If is isn't then my deepest apologies in suggested that that the surprise was going to be pleasant. Because if they were, then they could have used it.
   
   Fortunately, they do have the correct link to determining what is permitted in the competition.
   
   -- Stephen



2. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/13/2007 13:52:21 GMT
   There are in fact two sensors. The standars light sensor from LEGO. It is somewhat sensitive to different colors but not terribly. Then there is a color sensor by a third party that has special optics and filters. This sensor can tell you what color LEGO brick its looking at.
   
   The LEGO light sensor is legal. The third party color sensor (as is ALL third party sensors) is not legal.
   
   -Skye

Discussion: uploading By: wildcats163 12/03/2007 02:39:27 GMT
Help! One of my team members spent an entire afternoon perfecting one of the missions, but forgot to save the changes to the computer. The only one that works is the one on the NXT robot. We need to combine this mission with someone else's and need to get the programming back on the computer to add to it. I read in the help about "uploading", but it uploads as a RBX file instead of as a RBT file that the software can read. When I try to open the uploaded program, it tells me that there was an error. Any suggestions?

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/03/2007 02:39:27 GMT
   I am fairly confident that you are in trouble. The NXT-G software 'compiles' the RBT file and downloads it into the NXT as an RBX. I am not aware of any way to go backwards.
   
   -Skye

---

Folder: RCX Specific Questions 02/05/2008 12:31:12 GMT


Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:59:02 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

Discussion: RCX/NXT HYBRID? By: Highlanders 5947 02/05/2008 12:46:49 GMT
Okay, I have a few questions.

1. Can the NXT motors legally be used with the RCX controller in competition?

2. If a robot was comprised of RCX controller and sensors but using NXT motors, would the fairness bonus be applied?

3. Has anyone already done this? If so, how was your experience?

Thanks,
Patrick

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 02/04/2008 12:42:51 GMT
   Why would you do this? what is the purpose? There is a broad range of 9 volt motors. Although I had a rather heavy rule-interpretation issue with Jack Gregory about using the so called buggy motors, the best choice in my opinion.
   
   see here:
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9c48b
   
   We used two buggy motors for driving and they are the best! We did not use them in the fll competition because of the threat of disqualification, we just wouldn't take that risk. Read the mentioned thread. Although according the rules it is NOT forbidden you can encounter head referees making that kind of decisions on their own discretion.
   
   Anyway, we will not be going to Atlanta but to Tokio ! And scoring 400 points is not that difficult this season even with "normal 9v geared motors"
   
   see this link:
   http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=4iYFUJPz0GE
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: Highlanders 5947 02/05/2008 09:23:07 GMT
   Well, it's a long story, but to shorten it, Using the NXT motors would be very convenient.
   
   As for using other motors, I posted on the forum a few years ago asking if anything besides the geared 9v was allowed, and I recall the awnser was no...
   
   Patrick
   -5947



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 02/05/2008 12:31:12 GMT
   Hi Patrick,
   
   You make me curious, so tell the long story, please.
   
   There is an opening to use other Lego motors, this years challenge has no prescription which motor has to be used as it was in previous seasons. We know, but there is the problem I mentioned in my previous posting. We decided not to take the chance. Only because of the muscle talk that we encountered. We still have another idea of "gracious" professionalism, hi.
   
   One problem will arise extra and that is how the sensor count is made. In the NXT motor housing there is also a rotation sensor. That means that if you succeed to use the NXT motors on the RCX connected with factory standard (no modifications) Lego cables and connectors, you must observe Rule 7 Materials limiting the electric components.
   
   Simpler defined, this will mean each NXT motor used counts as one rotation sensor as well.
   
   Further did you read the thread in the forum mentioned in my previous posting? ( all of them, it is like a soap series, even although some postings haven been deleted)
   
   Coach I (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

---

Folder: Table Construction 11/06/2007 05:39:16 GMT


Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:57:56 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

Discussion: Table Lights By: crazybots1334 09/10/2007 15:41:01 GMT
Is there a standard distance from the table surface to the 40 Watt light fixture bulbs - Rob

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/10/2007 15:41:01 GMT
   The best you can do is look at the plans for building a 'standard' table. Be advised that even if you build a 100% regulation table, the tables you compete on at a tournament may not be 100% regulation. Best to develop a strategy that allows you not to have to rely on light levels.
   
   -Skye

Discussion: Portable Table Plans By: Electro Bricks-1175 11/06/2007 05:39:16 GMT
I've heard, on a recent conference call, that there is a way to construct the table so that it is very portable. Can someone please share those plans with me?

Thanks!
Sue

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/15/2007 13:39:45 GMT
   For some reason this discussion was started in the "Research Questions" area. You will find some info there.
   
   - Gary



1. Message by: SmithRams3589 10/23/2007 05:01:42 GMT
   I have a four piece plan. I can e-mail you the drawings if you like.



1. Message by: GallopingGirls4205 11/06/2007 04:06:14 GMT
   Can I please get the design for the table.
   
   TY



2. Message by: blueeagles94 10/27/2007 14:52:42 GMT
   could you please e-mail to rphanu@gmail.com



3. Message by: SmithRams3589 11/06/2007 05:39:16 GMT
   I am having trouble with my CAD system. I'll try to work on it later this week.
   
   Jack

Discussion: umm By: robocomets4316 10/31/2007 02:01:57 GMT
my group seem to have had the whole school that takes the rob class destroyed your table so we are in a bad posstion.lol

Discussion: umm By: robocomets4316 11/04/2007 06:07:47 GMT
my group seem to have had the whole school that takes the rob class destroyed your table so we are in a bad posstion.lol

1. Message by: robocomets4316 10/31/2007 02:03:08 GMT
   ummm.....................



1. Message by: robocomets4316 10/31/2007 02:03:49 GMT
   the classes in our school have destroyed the table lol



2. Message by: lightsavers2634 11/04/2007 06:07:47 GMT
   
   Do you mean the wooden table was mutilated in some way, or were you talking about the destruction of the Lego mission models? Either one wouldn't suprise me these days.
   
   
   -David (the kid)

---

Folder: Table Setup 09/10/2007 16:13:42 GMT


Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:58:18 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

Discussion: 2007 Mat Placement By: 01BB3A8C 09/10/2007 16:13:42 GMT
The field setup instructions on the FLL web site still show "base" being in the corner. The 2007 mat is not like that. Are there specific requirements on how to place the mat for the 2007 situation?

Fossil Fuel Fighters 171

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 09/09/2007 21:31:21 GMT
   Hi Ohio,
   
   I don't know where you are looking, anyway I would check this link:
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=29610
   
   look at Rule 10
   
   No Problemo!
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by:0222520A 09/10/2007 16:13:42 GMT
   The mats fit much better this year, so you shouldn't have to worry about where to put the base. If there is a large gap around the mat you should check your table. The space between the walls should be 93" x 45".
   
   The best solution is to not rely on the location of the walls. Use bumpers or light sensors to locate landmarks on the mat. Not all tables are the same, but the mats are very uniform.
   
   Dean Hystad

Discussion: Fieldmats are shipping - now HAS ARRIVED By: 0236923D 08/22/2007 14:13:08 GMT
We just received notice that our field mat has shipped. We're team # 108 for others trying to gauge when theirs might be shipping.

Ours has now arrived (8/2) and it's pretty neat. Warning spoilers below this line!

Nice thick plastic mat, not the tyvek stuff. Scene shows basically an overhead shot of a city including both land and water. Field mat pieces are - a house, truck, hydrogen car, dam I/ flood, trees, railroad and rail car, oil platform, power lines, wind turbines, power plant, uranium, corn, solar power satellite - should be fun!

1. Message by: mcsl2007 08/18/2007 18:21:46 GMT
   We're a Canadian team (#568), our parts arrived 8/15.
   
   Two points:
   1) shorted one technic pin joiner round (Peeron 75535)
   2) possible build instructions flaw in attaching the front bumper to the truck - probably requires two additional 1x2 plates with 1 stud (Peeron 3794)



1. Message by:0236923D 08/18/2007 18:49:53 GMT
   You may want to double check the build on the truck, we had no issues with attaching the bumper using the directions. Is it possible something is assembled incorrectly causing the issue described?



2. Message by: Legos In Paradise 22 08/21/2007 04:11:50 GMT
   Truck Bumper Problems: The latest release of Lego 1X6 Brick has a longer stabilizer on 2 of the bottom tubes than previous 2X6 bricks. To keep the model the exact same length, use an older 2X6 instead of adding 2 more pieces. Or maybe FLL designed it that way?



1. Message by: Legos In Paradise 22 08/21/2007 05:02:56 GMT
   oops, I meant 1X6, not 2X6. Use an older 1X6 brick instead of adding 2 more pieces.



3. Message by: flyinggreenmonkeys3724 08/22/2007 00:28:08 GMT
   we forgot to order the field set up kit
   if anyone knows how we can obtain it, please let us know



1. Message by: FloridaModirator 08/22/2007 14:13:08 GMT
   Have your coach go back into the FLL Registration site and they may order one from there. Not to worry, there are still some available.
   Laura

Discussion: new color sensors allowed? By: lowescreeklegobotics84 08/31/2007 20:54:14 GMT
Hello,

We are wondering if the new HiTechnic color sensor is an allowable part for the FLL NXT robots.

Thank you,

FLL Midwest Coach

1. Message by: mcsl2007 08/21/2007 03:51:23 GMT
   ...and what about the Lego/HiTechnic compass sensor?



1. Message by: bears299 08/21/2007 04:45:00 GMT
   I doubt they will be allowed as long as the RCX robot is allowed, and it can't use the color or compass sensors. I think the rules will try to keep the RCX and NXT robots as equal as possible.



2. Message by:0236923D 08/21/2007 13:16:52 GMT
   The product description and pricing information under registration says "FLL Robot Set (NXT) contains 1 Light Sensor, but 2 are allowed." Based on that and past rules for FLL, it seems extremely unlikely that any other electronic components will be permitted besides what is in the kit and that 1 extra light sensor.



1. Message by: FloridaModirator 08/21/2007 17:47:28 GMT
   Check the official Q&A after September 5th for updates to what Lego hardware is allowed.



3. Message by: gearguards_140 08/23/2007 19:19:39 GMT
   I have seen this asked in the past an the answer I saw was since they are not Lego (they are an OEM part) they are not allowed.



4. Message by: XBots1675 08/31/2007 20:54:14 GMT
   I emailed FLL for the answer to this...I wondered if it was just another kind of light sensor. Their respons..."no":
   
   " the "color sensor" is not the same as the light sensor that's allowed for FLL, and is not allowed."

Discussion: mat width By: 01D3B26C 09/06/2007 19:58:57 GMT
I've built a table which measures exactly 45" across between the borders. I roll the mat out and it seems to be slightly wider than the interior of the table. I'll go measure the mat, but wondered if anyone else found this? It seems like it won't quite lay flat because of this (without curling on one edge).

David

1. Message by:01D3B26C 08/21/2007 22:27:48 GMT
   I just measured the mat and it is actually just the right width. I'll go back and check my table again. Perhaps there is a little twist in the 2x4s.
   
   BTW, I built a 2 part table that is aligned with metal pins. If anyone wants to see more details, let me know and I can post them somewhere.
   
   David



1. Message by: PISDFLL1357 08/21/2007 22:37:03 GMT
   Yes, please post details about your table. I've been trying to decide how to build the simplest, lightest set of standard walls that are still reasonably sturdy. (We could even operate with just the walls -- we'll probably be working on the floor, anyway.)
   
   Cheers,
   
   James



2. Message by:01D3B26C 08/22/2007 03:41:54 GMT
   I'll create a new topic to discuss the table.



3. Message by: hornets2488 08/23/2007 02:46:57 GMT
   The mat I received is also slightly too wide. I have attempted to tuck the edges under the 2x4 table boarder. It doesn't lay as flat as it should.
   
   Jenelle



4. Message by: XBots1675 08/26/2007 20:17:34 GMT
   whereas last years NanoQuest mat seemed way too small, this year's mat fits just perfectly on our table. I hope you can figure it out and this doesn't cause you any problems!!



5. Message by: crazybots1334 09/03/2007 15:57:51 GMT
   Should the mat edges meet the walls, or where the color on the mat begins meet the walls. There is that 1/4" border. Not sure if that gray border should be under my walls. - Rob



1. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/04/2007 14:52:00 GMT
   No, the mat should fit within the walls. No part should be under a wall.
   Laura



6. Message by: crazybots1334 09/04/2007 19:50:24 GMT
   is there a building description for the table with dimensions with a light fixture above it somewhere?
   
   Rob



1. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/04/2007 20:00:05 GMT
   Yes, the instructions are at
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=23700
   
   Laura



7. Message by: ECA Hawks 09/04/2007 20:39:14 GMT
   Our materials showed up today and the new mat fits almost to the edge of the table frame width wise. The ends are close but there*s a little more play than the sides (width). Our mat from last year had a lot of play on the table...
   
   Jon.



8. Message by:016742CC 09/05/2007 18:13:01 GMT
   the mat i got fit almost perfectly



9. Message by: NLHF2007 09/06/2007 19:23:52 GMT
   The coaches book suggests a simple 4 X 8 plywood for a
   4 X 8 field mat, but the optional table instructions direct you to build a 45" X 93" table. What are the correct dimensions to build for? Thanks, Colleen



10. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/06/2007 19:58:57 GMT
    The mat fits on the 4x8 table with room left over enough for the 2x4 side pieces. The mat is smaller than 45" x 93"
    
    Laura

Discussion: 2 piece table design By: 01D3B26C 08/29/2007 02:23:01 GMT
I'll start with a description of how I did a two piece table.
I cut the luan in half. I purchased an extra 1x4 so I'd have two more support pieces. So, each half of the table has 3 supports with the center ones being on the edge of the luan for additional support at the joint. Also, the side 2x4s are cut in half to match the luan. I used metal pins (out of 3/8ths inch rod) to align the two halves. I made an alignment jig so I could drill holes accurately in the ends of the 2x4s that join in the middle of the table. I used a 3rd pin which aligns the middle of the 1x4 supports along that middle seam. I bought but haven't installed yet, some metal latches that will keep the 2 halves joined tightly. I intended to mount those on the outside edge of the 2x4 borders. I realize one of those would interfere with putting my table against another one for competition. I might not worry about that.

One other thing I noticed. In one diagram, they specify 1x4s under the table for support. In a parts list on another page, they talk about 1x3s used for that purpose. What is everyone using?

David

1. Message by: Legos In Paradise 22 08/29/2007 02:23:01 GMT
   Our table is 3 seasons old now, with a plywood surface. I made it a 2 part to get it in the basement. I removed the long 2X4's, sawed the 4X8 (plywood) in half to have 2 4'X4' pieces, and use a new 4' 2X4 under the seam (the 4" side against the bottom of the table) to keep the table together with screws through the top (they don't seem to affect anything if you are careful to not under-tighten or over counter-sink the screw heads) and replaced the long 2X4s. Someone else built this table 3 years ago, and used 4 2X4s under for support so I don't know about 1X4 or 1X3. 2X4 make it very sturdy, but rather heavy.
   
   Dan

Discussion: Any experience with light-weight table designs? By: Squizoids2046 09/03/2007 02:56:17 GMT
One thing that makes the table so heavy and hard to deal with is the 4x8 plywood bottom. I looked in my local big box hardware store, and they carry 4'x8' sheets of polystyrene insulation of various thicknesses that seem sturdy and light. Then, it occurred to me that I could probably also use the material and hot-glue it down to the surface for walls and use 2x2 wood supports underneath.

The one major downside I can guess with this material is that it seems to permanently compress when pushed down on hard. And that is the action needed when using the snaplock tape to attach the lego creations.

I'm looking for comments on others' experience with using this material? Will it work? Is the snaplock pressure less than the crush pressure? Will the table hold up under standard abuse? What other light-weight suggestions does anyone have?

Thanks,
Wayne

1. Message by: FloridaModirator 08/27/2007 20:31:16 GMT
   That's a really great Idea! for the flatness problem, you could just put a piece of that thin wall board they make white boards out of, paneling or something. You'd have to use some special contact cement to form them up properly so it didn't melt the foam. I'm gonna try this. I'll let you know how it works out.
   
   Laura



1. Message by: Squizoids2046 09/02/2007 07:14:02 GMT
   Well, today, I did it. I used 1 1/2" polystyrene 4x8 sheet, onto which I glued a smooth sheet of 1/8" paneling. I constructed a bottom frame out of 1x2's and a standard 2x4 black wall. I used 4" screws to drill down through the 2x4 wall (after insetting 2" deep wholes), through the paneling, polystyrene, and into the 1x2 framework below.
   
   Very solid construction and probably about half the weight. The thin panel gives the table a firm uncompressable surface. It worked out pretty well. I have to admit though that it is still heavier than I'd hoped, but at least I can carry it by myself.
   
   Now, if only the 2x4 walls weren't so heavy. As I left the hardware store, I started eye'ing a fake plastic pre-fabbed picket fence that used plastic hollow-core "lumber" for the slats and posts. If I could find hollow 2x4 pvc material, that would be GREAT! Next time....



2. Message by: 09/03/2007 01:47:41 GMT
   Deleted



3. Message by: geewhiz826 09/03/2007 02:56:17 GMT
   I remember seeing a transportable field table in use at Brickfest one year. It was put together by a Virginia FLL group that also did a presentation at the conference. They used the Scotchloc connectors to connect the side-rails together. However, the Scotchloc they had was larger and longer than the little squares we use to hold down the field pieces. I don't know where they got the larger strips. Since the side-rails are a significant portion of the weight in your lighter table model, perhaps a removable set would make it even more portable?

Discussion: Missing field parts By: The Flux Capacitors 24 09/07/2007 20:31:06 GMT
My team has started assembling the playing field parts. We noted the instruction errors that were pointed out in the forum and appreciate the tips, but are also missing parts. Has anyone else missed parts or am I a loner? I would mention the parts, but the list is such an assortment and we haven't assembled everything yet. In the past, when we at first thought we were missing something, it would turn up as more was assembled. This time, some of the missing parts are large plates as well as some small ones, and it is very obvious that they were left out. We have supplemented from a mountain of personal Legos.

Eric
Team 24

1. Message by: GranbyRedBlox167 08/28/2007 02:54:46 GMT
   Our team did an inventory check before building - we came up short on a few pieces too, including:
   med gray 3 stud axle (4211815) missing one
   black 1x2 tile (306926) missing two
   black Technic Axle Joiner Perpendicular(4173668)missing one
   black 1x4 plate (371026) missing one
   
   Nothing big (and easily replaced by our LEGO collection), but I found it a bit disappointing, as my boys have many, many LEGO sets and we have never experienced missing parts.
   
   Merle Yoder
   Granby Red Blox



1. Message by: under pressure 1131 08/28/2007 04:30:31 GMT
   We also found we were missing some pieces. Small bits that were also easily replaced from our personal lego collection - nothing that was too custom - but it sure slowed down the building process. Our Canadian distributor sent instructions on getting the missing pieces but warned it would be a two week + wait. We opted to use our personal pieces instead, the kids were too excited to wait to build.
   
   Michelina Beam
   Coach Under Pressure



2. Message by: bears299 08/28/2007 04:55:59 GMT
   My kits arrive at my school the first week in August, but the students don't start until the last week in August. I always inventory the parts as soon as they arrive, and order any missing parts right away so that we have them when the students are ready to assemble the models. I was missing one part from the coal car, and it arrived last week. I don't feel that my doing the inventory early violates the spirit of the kids doing all the work. You might consider this idea next year.



1. Message by: The Flux Capacitors 24 08/28/2007 06:16:17 GMT
   Yes, an early inventory would have helped along with sorting the parts into like types or colors. I don't know the scheme of how Lego decides to group parts together, but it isn't to make it easier to build. Color, type or use groupings would be much better. When you are building by directions and the pieces are hard to find and then you can't find some of them, major frustration, especially for the newbies on the team who don't know the fun that lies ahead.
   
   eric
   team 24



3. Message by: 08/31/2007 20:42:14 GMT
   Deleted



4. Message by: team168 08/31/2007 22:11:52 GMT
   I am helping w/two teams and both field set up kits were missing small parts. One kit was missing 2 red 1x2 tiles and a black 1x1 brick, and the other was missing a yellow L-shaped brick.
   
   All the parts are easily replaceable but it strikes me as odd that that such a random selections of parts are missing. The only thing that makes sense is poor quality control on the part of LEGO--something I never thought I'd say.



5. Message by: JeniousInDisguise2181 09/06/2007 04:25:02 GMT
   Why do doctors like to operate on engineers? They understand when there are pieces left over after putting everything back together ;-)
   
   Bob



6. Message by: ECA Hawks 09/07/2007 19:50:06 GMT
   You guys are getting me worried about parts. I have all the new stuff for this year sitting next to my desk. I was going to let the kids open everything on Monday when we start our season...
   
   Jon.



1. Message by: zap4702 09/07/2007 20:31:06 GMT
   It helps *so* much to pre-sort the pieces before you let the kids start building. It is definitely worth your time to open the packages and put all the pieces for each model together. Then give each building pair the stuff for one model - all the pieces and the instructions. This helps them build faster, and you have a better sense if they've built the model correctly because if they have pieces left over, you know they didn't do it right.
   
   Doreen
   Team ZAP!

Discussion: Building instructions By: Teamin Red3067 09/01/2007 21:00:33 GMT
I've looked through the boxes that Lego has sent me and don't seem to have building instructions. I know some of the teams out there are way ahead of us on building the field set up but we were startinf Sat. and I can't find any building instructions anywhere. Is there somewhere that I can download them on pdf or something? If there is please advise I can't seem to find anything.... Thanks

1. Message by: RoboraidersRed165 08/31/2007 03:00:38 GMT
   You should have also received a CD with the field set-up kit. The building instructions are down-loadable from that CD. Good luck.



1. Message by: Teamin Red3067 08/31/2007 03:06:19 GMT
   Right knew there should be a cd with the instructions but alas no, not in the box. If I can find it online we can get building on Sat if not, I have to call and have the instructions sent in which case we can't build until they get here. Thanks



2. Message by: Teamin Red3067 09/01/2007 21:00:33 GMT
   Thanks for the offers to send the instructions folks. I was able to obtain insructions so we are off to buld!!

Discussion: Should I expect EXTRA parts in Field Setup Kits By: Squizoids2046 09/02/2007 06:57:32 GMT
I've followed the discussion on setup kits with missing pieces. So, last night, I decided to review the TWO field kits currently in my garage (two separate FLL teams). I started a detailed inventory of Team2's kit when Team1 showed up on my doorstep and dove into assembly of their kit. So, I didn't have a change to inventory the Team1 kit.

When they finished, there were several pieces left over, among them a few little things like bushings and short axels and 1x1 plates, but also 2-3 rather large pieces. I worried about the team1's "quality control" and reviewed the assembled equipment but could find no place where this one big white 1x12 block could reasonably go.

Then I finished inventory of the Team2 kit and found NO missing pieces. Interestingly, there WERE a few extra pieces in the second kit, all small, and really interestingly, they matched up with the extras in the other kit. An extra orange and clear headlight stud, some small caps, etc.

So, I have the feeling that the standard package may come with a few "known" extra pieces. And as with any assemby line quality control process, I suppose it is just as likely that you get an EXTRA piece as you are to be missing a piece.

I'm wondering if others are experiencing the "extra piece" effect as well as missing pieces? I need to know how worried I should be about extra of the bigger standard bricks.

Thanks,
Wayne

1. Message by: team168 08/31/2007 22:06:54 GMT
   Yep, we have extra pieces as well as missing ones. Not just the expected small bushings etc. but also large structural pieces. Odd.



1. Message by:0222520A 08/31/2007 22:09:55 GMT
   There are always a few extra pieces. Bushes and small transparent pieces commonly have a few extras.
   
   I think we had two 1x plates left over. I eventually found they attached to the satellite solar panels.



2. Message by: hoffman1702 08/31/2007 23:05:19 GMT
   We did not have any large pieces leftover, but were missing some pieces which we replaced from our stock. However, I later rechecked the plans and found so many errors in construction that I had my kids rebuild about 1/2 of the models--and we used up most of the big pieces, with just a few little ones leftover.
   
   I thought that my quality control would be that I had 2 kids assemble each piece--one to check the other's work...Next year, I will have my kids sort the pieces and bag them for each project. Hopefully that will eliminate some of the confusion and allow us to get all the models together in a 2 hour period...Just MHO.



3. Message by: Team4287 08/31/2007 23:32:34 GMT
   For field setup kits, I always build each kit up (and this is the only thing I do for the kids with respect to Lego building and programming).
   
   I do this for several reasons:
   1) I can be assured that the kits are built correctly and if they are not, then I am to blame.
   2) If they are extra parts left over, I know that they are truly extra parts.
   3) The team practices to correct setup kits. Note: Last year, I saw an excellent team flounder during competition because they had assembled their kits incorrectly. It hurts me to see that happen when it could have been easily avoided.
   4) I enjoy doing it and it is the only Lego building I get to do all the season.
   5) It better prepares me to assist in setting up all of the tournaments tables during competitions.



4. Message by: Squizoids2046 09/01/2007 00:30:24 GMT
   Next time, I'm going to do two things differently.
   1) Pre-sort the full set of parts into separate bags per item to build. The team only got half the items built in the time I'd planned, and most of the problem was the initial hunting for little pieces in the monsterous pile.
   
   2) Next time I won't be as cheap in printing the instructions. I thought printing 4 scaled pages per sheet was big enough (you could see the picture easily), but I didn't realize that more important was being able to easily read the parts-list in the top corner of the page. :-( Zooming into the PDF file on the laptop was even better but impractical for a full team building different parts at the same time.
   
   Finally, a LEGO request, but I sure wish the parts list and instruction part boxes listed more than the random part number. It would have saved me a ton of time if the word below each part said "4x12 blah" instead of a part number. I spent a good portion of the time trying to count the tiny studs in the 3-d picture.



5. Message by: crazycreators252 09/01/2007 04:02:16 GMT
   Here is how I do it:
   When the field setup kit arrives I open it up, remove the instruction CD, close the box and retape it. I then print and study all the instructions very carefully to provide guidance at construction time. At the next meeting, where all the kids on the team are present, I give the box to them and say "have fun". They do the work. As they dump out all the bags of parts on the field mat and sort the larger pieces by color, I briefly review each set of instructions with them to help with the sorting. They then decide who is going to build each mission model and start to build. When done (2 to 3 hour later), and they all go home; there are usually a handful of extra pieces. I then double check their work, using the instructions, looking for and correcting any mistakes and try to find where the extra pieces might go.



6. Message by: Squizoids2046 09/02/2007 06:57:32 GMT
   Wrapup...my Team1 returned today to finish building and found the right spots for all the big left over places. I still need to review the models, but in the end, just the few expected small pieces left over.
   
   Thanks for all the advice,
   Wayne

Discussion: Truck error By: 01D3B26C 09/06/2007 19:08:29 GMT
On page 3, step 5 shows the front bumper support. Step 6 shows the rear bumper support, which includes 2 1x2 flat pieces with a single bump instead of 2. Those allow the bumper to be centered on the rear of the truck.
Page 5, step 9 shows attaching the front and rear bumpers. However, there doesn't seem to be any way to center that front bumper! The pictures seems to show it centered, but it won't connect!

David

1. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/05/2007 14:29:16 GMT
   There is a posting under the www.firstlegoleague.org with building instruction updates at
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/default.aspx?pid=70
   Laura



1. Message by: Team4287 09/05/2007 19:01:23 GMT
   I also encountered this same issue. While the color for the front and back bumper is the same, the internal "webbing" is not. Switching the bumpers solved my issue and now both bumpers are correctly centered.



2. Message by:01D3B26C 09/06/2007 16:07:32 GMT
   I have the same 2 gray pieces. The internal webbing is the same and I can't switch them and make it work. I looked and noticed the dam uses 2 identical gray pieces and they are also identical. Are you saying there is another piece they've given us that looks the same, but the webbing is different? That doesn't sound right. They don't specify two different pieces. I've been following lego instructions since the 70s (yes, really!) and they usually make some distinction when there are differences.
   
   David



3. Message by: Team4287 09/06/2007 19:08:29 GMT
   I sounds like that there "may" be different lots of those gray pieces and some of us got some where the webbing goes to the top (bottom, depending on your point of view) instead of stopping just short.
   
   From my point of view you have three options:
   1) Contact Lego to get a replacement piece.
   2) Take out a little bit of the webbing manually.
   3) Find another gray piece without this issue and swap them.
   
   Personally, since it is not an integral part of any mission, I would take my dremel and remove the excess plastic.

---

Folder: FLL Gracious Professionalism 01/11/2008 19:21:32 GMT


Discussion: Observing gracious professionalism By: Black Nights 11 10/12/2007 17:14:22 GMT
We wanted to come up with a fun way to bring the discussion of gracious professionalism into each meeting. Our children know what it is, but when asked at competitions cannot come up with good examples from their team's experiences. We decided to play "pass the pig". When any member of the team does something ungracious, they get a small toy pig passed to them. Nobody wants to get the pig and it has really helped our meetings stay on track, and gotten the team laughing alot. We're now going to start "pass the star" when gracious professionalism is displayed.

1. Message by: Hybrid Heros 10/03/2007 21:51:30 GMT
   We started our very first meeting reading from the Coaches Manual what is meant by Gracious Professionalism. This seemed to put students in the right frame of mind right off. Now, hopefully they will remember it all the way through the season and when asked by the judges.



1. Message by: Bricksters2739 10/12/2007 17:14:22 GMT
   Thank you for the great "pass the pig/star" idea. At times gracious professionalism is an issue for our team as well.

Discussion: Gracious Professionalism 101 By: crazycreators252 11/09/2007 09:47:34 GMT
How not to be a Gracious Professional:

I am quite surprised at the QA55 entry. The answer should have included a statement about the stratagy being un-gracious and un-professional.
Someone (whover asked the question) just doesn't seem to get it - Why we are here in FFL and why we are doing what we do.

This is not a competition to outscore an apponent on an opposite table. The teams go to the competitions to do the best they can to get thier own high score. Stealing points from another team is in my opinion totally opposite of acting with Gracious Professionalism. There is no possible benifit with this stratagy. It is not win-win.

As a shared mission, a true gracious professional would help the other team by lowering thier solor panel if they failed to do it them selves.

Coach Dave

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/02/2007 18:40:43 GMT
   Dave, FLL games seem to alternate between center missions that are cooperative and those that are competitive. This year it is competitive, as it was in the No Limits game. In that game, it was permissible to remove your opponent's ball from the center goal and replace it with your own. That is not allowed this year - quite possibly another lesson learned by the game design committee in No Limits when a few teams mistook the game name to be the rules. Limits certainly were stretched that year!
   
   Ocean Odessey and (way back) Arctic Impact were also race-to-the-center games.
   
   Mission Mars was a cooperative venture similar to last year in NanoQuest.
   
   The one I liked best was City Sights. You had to voluntarily give some of your mission scoring elements (the affectionately named "Fruit Loops") to the other team. Granted, they were worth twice as many points to you if you did so. But no team could get a perfect score without the help of their table-mates. I hesitate to even call them competitors, as they truly were partners in that game.
   
   Whether the center element is competition or cooperation, it doesn't reflect on GP. How you treat your opponent is what is important, not trying to gain the most points.
   
   Some people had the idea to switch the pointer back on Day One, and QA 7 quickly quashed that ploy. (Alliteration!) Someone this week, who is just beginning to think about that mission, had the same idea. They both simply wondered whether the idea was allowable or not - and found out it was not.
   
   I'm not sure whether Rule 28 would allow you to trigger the solar panel for the other side. Is that "meeting the scoring requirements" of the shared mission? If you take that to mean the score that will count for your team, then no it would not be allowed.
   
   - Gary
   
   Edit - I misread the question in QA 55. I thought it was a repeat of QA 7. This question is asking if you can undo a mission that the other team has completed. I agree, that is something that shouldn't be contemplated.



1. Message by: crazycreators252 10/02/2007 19:16:11 GMT
   My point is that the question is basically asking "Can we steal points from the other team"?
   
   The answer, besides NO, should have included how un-gracious and un-professional that stratagy would be.
   
   Dave



2. Message by: robotmasters53 11/09/2007 09:47:34 GMT
   I think the questioner was just asking what the rules and objectives are. If an outfielder reaches over the fence and "steals" a home run, would you say that outfielder is ungracious and unprofessional?

Discussion: Team Websites By: formerlynanoknights1560 01/11/2008 19:21:32 GMT
I set up a blog for the kids to share what they are learning. I'll be posting their research and comments on the robot development. I'm typing and moderating, but it is their words.

I was hoping others might post their team websites as well.

http://teamformerlyknownasnanoknights.blogspot.com/

Tammy W.
Coach team 1560--"We're B.A.C.K."

1. Message by: oxfordenergy0234 11/09/2007 15:40:08 GMT
   Hi,
   
   Our team web site is www.oxfordenergy.us
   I set up a share point team site that we share and store stuff internally, but that requires a loin. I will move some of the stuff from the team site to the public site over this weekend, as I should have a few moments, as the warm up meet went well last week! (and head coach Don is in Florida, so we all get a break)
   
   Programming coach, Scott.



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/09/2007 15:52:10 GMT
   i but that requires a loin
   
   Wow! Not just an arm and a leg, but a loin??????
   
   -Skye "You gotta love the spell checker" Sweeney



2. Message by: oxfordenergy0234 11/09/2007 19:16:00 GMT
   Yes, it got me, who'd thunk that "login" would not be in a website spell check..



3. Message by: icNRG 2340 11/17/2007 18:52:09 GMT
   Well to give an international link check our site. We've got several years experience in our team.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



4. Message by: cglf631 01/11/2008 19:21:32 GMT
   The team I coach built a website, too, and they won a judges' award for it at the qualifying tournament they attended. It links to a funny video they made that's up on YouTube...and from there, you can also link to other FLL YouTube clips.
   
   http://www.freewebs.com/worms4d/mudd2007.html
   
   An important thing on the site is information about their
   "Fantasy FLL" tournament, basically a mail-in travel-free competition for bragging rights and wacky awards. The event is open to any team with a well-developed sense of humor. Sign-ups are still open...the posters here all seem to qualify ;)
   
   Vanessa
   Coach, Team 631
   Mega Ultimate Demon Dudes, aka M.U.D.D.

---

Folder: FLL Marketing, Fundraising and PR 03/21/2008 09:29:49 GMT


Discussion: Comic Book By: 0175DA2B 09/06/2007 15:29:49 GMT
Will this comic book be updated for 2007-2008? Are any other teams interested in buying copies for recruiting?

Our local newspaper has offered to print 10,000 copies for about $3000 (30 cents each), but we would want to share that cost with 100 other teams. :-) It would be nice if FLL would step up and buy a bunch and then sell them to interested teams.

1. Message by:01749AFB 09/06/2007 02:01:09 GMT
   What a great price. I tried to print a dozen for handout to potential team members and it cost me much, much more than 30 cents apiece. Put us down for 200 copies and let me know where to mail the check.
   
   Marilou McSherry
   WhitneyKillerwatts127
   WHSrobotics@aol.com



1. Message by:0175DA2B 09/06/2007 15:29:49 GMT
   I ended up making a tri-fold brochure and using that for recruiting, with a pointer to our web site which links to the comic book. As rookies this year, I actually don't want to recruit too many people!
   
   Tony Laundrie
   nsrobots.org

Discussion: a Fundraising opportunity for FLL teams By: robotmasters53 09/24/2007 08:43:28 GMT
My Apologies in advance if this message is not appropriate for this forum.

Team 53, robot masters have a revenue sharing service for students fund raising activities including FLL robotics team fund raisers. We design and host web sites (after summer long training).
If your team needs fund raising & if you can find small business owners who may benefit from quality web sites, we share 30% of the design & 50% of hosting (sharing continues as long as the hosting service is provided) revenues.

http://robotmasters.askfriends.org/Web_Design_Services.html

or

http://askfriends.org/web_service_page.html

Discussion: Okay to reprint the logos? By: Parkside6030 11/02/2007 18:20:48 GMT
I apologize if this is asked/answered somewhere else, but I've searched a bit and have not found an explicit answer.

Our first time team would like to include the FLL and Power Puzzle logo on our skirts. Can these logos be reprinted in this manner? Thanks!

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/02/2007 15:47:24 GMT
   You may indeed use the FLL and PP logos on a shirt. Try to stay as close to the true colors as possible. You are not allowed to use the LEGO logo unless you get express permission from LEGO (good luck on that!).
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/02/2007 18:20:48 GMT
   FIRST has standards for use of it's logos, which can be found here: http://www.usfirst.org/community/resourcecenter.aspx?id=816
   
   - Gary

Discussion: Grant/sponsorship requests By: crazycreators252 12/19/2007 20:02:54 GMT
How does one go about asking a corporation to sponsor your team or supply funds? Are there any resources available for information, or samples of writing grant request?

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/19/2007 02:33:10 GMT
   A friend of mine found that blanket letters did little. That the bulk of gifting was done through some human connection. Parent as employee, parent as friend to CEO,...
   
   He also found that having the students beg appeared to be more effective. That having the students plunk down a working robot on the CEOs desk and doing their research presentation was worth a thousand blind letters.
   
   I do not have any samples but I am sure others here do...
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: bears299 12/19/2007 18:44:10 GMT
   I searched for advice in the forums from previous years, and I found this page helpful:
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?128@@.ee98105
   
   Linda



1. Message by: Mindstorms Mayhem #33 12/19/2007 19:59:45 GMT
   Hey, I like that prior thread with the helpful information! Can I just count all that previously written text as my response to this question from this year? ;-)
   
   More recent versions of our fundraising brochures are also available at our various web sites:
   
   
   • MAYHEM, Inc.
   • Mindstorms Mayhem, the FLL team
   • Mechanical Mayhem, the FRC team
   
   
   --ken



2. Message by: 12/19/2007 18:44:25 GMT
   Deleted

Discussion: What to say to potential sponsors? By: dromeimpalerz94 03/21/2008 09:29:49 GMT
Hi, I plan to have a meeting with potential sponsors to discuss about funding our teams for the WF or OAC. Can anyone help us give reasons as in what way the sponsors will benefit by sponsoring our team? Our potential sponsor is a large multi national company dealing with property and construction. Apart from printing the name of our sponsors on our shirts, what else can we do? Thanks

-Firdaus
Coach of Drome Impalerz.

1. Message by: Techno Warriors 02/20/2008 15:14:32 GMT
   In the marketing area there is a trifold brochure that states the impact the program has on kids in terms of them pursuing degrees in science and engineering. Too kids participating in the program are more likely to volunteer in their community. The kids of today are the work force of tomorrow. They are investing in the future when they support FIRST.
   
   Teresa



1. Message by: lawngnomes426 03/21/2008 09:29:49 GMT
   I would love to see the trifold brochure, but I could not find it. Could you post a link to it?
   Thanks
   Heidi
   Gothic Lawn Gnomes

Discussion: Year to Put on Team Buttons By: Techno Warriors 02/20/2008 17:37:29 GMT
Right now the button we have designed has Power Puzzle World Festival 2008. The WF is being held in April 2008, but the Power Puzzle challenge is the 2007 challenge. Which year is correct to put on the button? I was leaning toward 2008. Does it really matter?

Teresa

1. Message by: SmithRams3589 02/20/2008 17:37:29 GMT
   I would say 2007. You could always put 2007-08.

---

Folder: FLL Miscellaneous 05/11/2008 20:17:58 GMT


Discussion: YOUR VOTES PLEASE By: icNRG 2340 10/19/2007 04:52:36 GMT
ONLY 5 days left !

August 28th is the last day that you can vote for the RISbotics.

This Dutch First Lego League team from the RIS, called RISbotics (www.risbotics.nl), has been nominated for the prestigious "Eindhoven's Pride" award.

Eindhoven is one of the major cities in the Netherlands, and a major centre of engineering, industrial design, sports, and technical universities.

"Eindhovens Trots" (Eindhoven's Pride) is an annual award, initiated by the city council, and the winner is chosen by the public.

RISbotics has to compete with 4 very big and well known contestants who will surely generate loads of votes.
Last year's winner was a well known soccer team (PSV).
So, RISbotics, the underdog in this contest, needs your votes!

I think that you have to help these kids out, and make them win the award! So, please go over to the voting page and make a difference :-D !

To vote for them, go to the voting website. http://www.eindhovenstrots.nl/nomineren.htm
Select "RISBotics", enter your name (naam) and email, and click "stem" (which is the Dutch word for vote).

I estimate that they need about 7,000 votes to win, so let's give the RISbotics all the support! (they have campaigned during the summer and are doing quite well)

So please forward this message to every familymember, friends, neighbours
They need lots of votes!

Thanks a million!

Doede
Coach RISbotics
www.risbotics.nl (also in English)
Coach icNRG
www.icnrg.nl (also in English)

PS, I can tell you, from a very reliable source, that email addresses will not be used for anything else than this contest, but votes that do not have an emailadress will not be counted.

In the NanoQuest competition RISbotics won Regional- and National ChampionsAwards, further they won the Project- and RobotDesignAwards in the OEC FLL in Bod* Norway and were nominated for Innovative Design as well.

Your vote will make the difference!

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 09/08/2007 07:30:10 GMT
   RISbotics were awarded 2nd prize.
   
   on behalve of them we thank every voter.
   
   The citycounsel and newspapers said from the beginning that we were the underdogs. Well yesterday evening 3 other nominees, really big, well known organisations and a museum came in rank 5, 4 and 3.
   
   The winning nominee the all new cities swimcenter, not only to olympic standards and very high tec and a recreational center wave bath in tropical atmosphere came in on the first place.
   
   But the Kids loved it to be on a huge stage on the cities big market square and being adressed and honoured by the mayor!
   
   BUT NOW A NEW CHALLENGE SUCCES TO YOU ALL !
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 09/08/2007 18:14:00 GMT
   Congrats!! Glad I add my vote for you ;) Carla
   
   Coach
   Blue Cheesy Flamingos
   FLL MI Team



2. Message by: lawngnomes426 10/19/2007 04:52:36 GMT
   Congratulations! How cool for your team.
   Heidi
   coach, Gothic Lawn Gnomes
   WA

Discussion: Equipment for sale By: geewhiz826 01/17/2008 14:03:16 GMT
In the spirit of GP, our team would like to dispense with our RCX-based Lego equipment. We would prefer that a new team get a good deal on what they need instead of maximizing our ROI for the pieces via other sales venues. It is unlikely that a truly new team will be savvy enough to cruise through this forum and it may even be too late in the season to help anyway. So the question is: do any of you know of a deserving candidate for such a sale? I'm sorry to be lacking more specific information about the inventory, but I'll be making a more precise survey real soon now. :-)

Oh, if there's a better place for this query, LMK ASAP OK?

1. Message by:0236923D 09/01/2007 13:34:18 GMT
   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sptbglegoclub/
   
   They are restructuring their informal lego club for the new year. They are talking about possibly moving to JFLL & FLL and trying to figure out how to do so. They don't charge dues. I am a member of that list (for information), but live in Central Florida, so reccomending them is no benefit to me.
   
   You may also check with your local branch of SWE or ASCE, they often do robotics workshops often for underprivillaged kids, and that may be another outlet to go with.
   
   -denny coach of BRICKschoolers #108
   http://www.hcecf.net/brickschoolerslegorobotics.htm



1. Message by: warriors5050 09/06/2007 19:41:15 GMT
   Hi,
   
   We are starting our first team and in need of equipment- we purchased 1 set at cost but could not afford to purchase the second set at the same cost. Our team is in GA, please email me at mmixon1202@gmail.com to discuss further.



2. Message by: Icebots4118 09/08/2007 02:40:14 GMT
   I have a team that may need the set, but they may need the inventory. Could we get a pricing range for the kit? that would be great. Thanks!



3. Message by: lawngnomes426 09/12/2007 04:22:12 GMT
   There is a start-up team (they tried last year) in Afghanistan. They are asking for help with registration this year, so I would bet they would love to have the RCX kit. If this is of interest to you, please let us know.
   heidi@gothiclawngnomes.org



4. Message by: Ohms2846 09/19/2007 17:55:29 GMT
   We have some RCX equipment that we will never use. If somebody would like it and is willing to pay for shipping from Pennyslvania, please contact Mark at alloway1@comcast.net
   
   2 RCX bricks (One is version 1.0, the other is 2.0)
   1 rotation sensor
   7 Light sensors
   9 motors
   6 touch sensors
   4 IR download devices (3 USB, 1 with 10-pin cable)
   Many wires of various lengths
   1 light
   1 capacitor



5. Message by: Ohms2846 09/21/2007 20:45:12 GMT
   I've been contacted by a club that wants the equipment. It is no longer available.



6. Message by: WATCH3000 01/16/2008 07:41:22 GMT
   We are in need of RCX equipment. We started 3 clubs after great success with our robotics program this past fall and we need at least 3 - 6 kits. Donations would be great any anything would be appreciated.
   
   Please contact me at iwork4him@yahoo.com
   
   Thank you,
   
   JoAnn Notle
   Team 3000



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 01/17/2008 14:03:16 GMT
   Are you aware that RCX robots are likely to not be allowed past 2009? Please read:
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/nobanner.aspx?pid=21400
   
   -Skye

Discussion: embedded secret message on the matt.... By: BlueCheesyFlamingos 11/11/2007 22:02:09 GMT
I read on tech brick that there is a secret message embedded on the mat...did anyone else know this? Carla ;)

Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team

1. Message by:0222520A 09/14/2007 21:07:30 GMT
   Are you talking about the message spelt out when you put all the puzzle pieces from the mat together? All I can say is that no team will be successful if they don't know what the secret message means.
   
   Dean Hystad



1. Message by: maccandcheesers1288 09/18/2007 19:03:20 GMT
   What does it say?



2. Message by: maccandcheesers1288 09/18/2007 19:06:21 GMT
   I didnt hear anything
   
   MaccAndCheeserz



1. Message by:0222520A 09/22/2007 04:41:38 GMT
   You're not going to either. Solve the puzzle for yourself.



3. Message by: icNRG 2340 09/18/2007 21:29:18 GMT
   All I know is that it is a must for every team!
   not only to solve it, but also to practice it!
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



4. Message by: highlands2 09/22/2007 03:13:29 GMT
   Yeah that puzzle made a huge difference in our team's performance. It was awesome.



5. Message by: roboyetis1148 09/25/2007 19:12:13 GMT
   Our team found it out, I can't tell u, but there IS a message, and that is may be important to u...try different solutions to try and get it off the map and onto paper!



6. Message by: 09/25/2007 19:17:07 GMT
   Deleted



7. Message by: robo-raiders1147 09/27/2007 19:16:01 GMT
   Yeah Have you figured it out? We have...



8. Message by: Energy Enforcers 10/03/2007 21:31:50 GMT
   We have figured it out too. What a neat idea! Energy Enforcers



1. Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/08/2007 00:47:17 GMT
   Hey I just can't figure it out!!! Can you help me?



1. Message by: supernanobotextremes668 10/08/2007 01:18:35 GMT
   see message #11 on this thread (dated 04:32pm Oct 5, 2007 )



2. Message by:0222520A 10/08/2007 07:15:24 GMT
   If you know the shape of the puzzle it might be easier to solve. The puzzle pieces are all roughly the same size, so they are likely to lay ont in a rectangular grid. Using this infomation we can make guesses about the number of rows and columns.
   
   Lets say that I have a puzzle with 6 center pieces and 14 edge pieces. What will my puzzle look like?
   
   First I'll guess that it has 2 center rows of three pieces each. How many edge pieces would I need?
   
   3 columns x (1 top + 1 bottom) = 6
   2 rows x (1 left + 1 right) = 4
   That gives me 10 edge pieces, so that guess is wrong.
   
   Next I try 1 row of 6 center pieces.
   
   6 columns x (1 top + 1 bottom) = 12
   1 row x (1 left + 1 right) = 2
   That gives me 14 edge pieces. Got it in two guesses.
   
   Try this with the puzzle pieces from the mat and see if the information helps in assembling the puzzle. This technique works pretty well for puzzles with a small number of uniformly sized pieces. I don't recommend it for those 5000 piece monsters though.



9. Message by: brian001 10/05/2007 15:41:35 GMT
   OK, for the very few of us that are here and *don't* have the mat... can somebody give me a clue as to where to look? Is there an on-line version of the mat and whatever else I need to decode this?
   
   --
   Brian Davis
   NXT-G geek, but not a geek with a FLL kit...



10. Message by: supernanobotextremes668 10/05/2007 16:32:22 GMT
    Brian:
    Mat Images:
    (http://www.techbrick.com):
    http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/Lego2007/Resources/resourcesworksheets.html
    
    Also: There is another thread that reveals more about what the kids need to solve:
    http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?128@@.ee9b9f3
    and a team called the Inventioneers provided an additional step towards the solution:
    www.theinventioneers.com/puzzlepieces.html
    
    David Levy



11. Message by: Blendon Eco Agents 10/09/2007 21:11:34 GMT
    Hey are they talking about the mat we use for the competition or the power puzzle poster



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/09/2007 21:53:17 GMT
   Competition mat.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/09/2007 21:55:07 GMT
   Be sure to go to the techbrickwebsite. There you can find all what is necessary
   
   http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/Lego2007/Resources/resourcesPuzzle.html
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



12. Message by: uberBulldogs66 10/18/2007 17:58:33 GMT
    it says xxxxxxxxxxxxx (it is lame)
    
    -Edited by Skye Sweeney acting as moderator 10/20/07



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 10/20/2007 16:56:02 GMT
   uberBulldogs66
   
   Can you remove your entry please?
   
   It is supposed to be puzzle for everybody, lets just leave it a puzzle.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



13. Message by: roboyetis1148 10/25/2007 19:16:23 GMT
    agreeing with icNRG, everyone should figure it out, it is something that you should have ALL the time during the competition and something you should concentrate on too. good luck to the teams still trying to figure it out!!!



14. Message by: blackattack1146 10/26/2007 16:43:30 GMT
    our team has already solved the puzzle, have had it for lilke two months u gotta figure it out yourself, though!!!!
    -Black
    Attack-



15. Message by: DarkMatter563 11/11/2007 22:02:09 GMT
    The message really is a key part in legos.

Discussion: being a team leader By: RoboraidersBlack165 11/19/2007 05:34:14 GMT
Is anyone else here a team leader? Our team just signed up for the forum and I was very dismayed to find no topics for team leaders! so here one is. Any suggestions, questions or comments on being a team leader? Thanks!

1. Message by: homebotics1229 09/18/2007 16:39:33 GMT
   What's the difference between a team leader and a coach?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/18/2007 17:01:16 GMT
   Perhaps like a team captain (a student that is the focal point for the team)?
   
   As my team got older, members started taking on more responsibilities for the operation of the team. The coach got to spend more time sitting than running around attending to paper work stuff. One of these members took on more responsibility and orchestrated brainstorming sessions, research homework, etc.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: homebotics1229 09/18/2007 17:57:36 GMT
   Ahhh . . . yes, we are doing that, but didn't know it was called something special :) We had our three veteran NXT programmers begin explaining the basics of the NXT programming to the others that had only used RoboLab. They also explained the details of the using rotation sensors.
   
   I'd love to hear other suggestions on how the leaders can take on more responsibility. . .



3. Message by: RoboraidersBlack165 09/19/2007 08:30:23 GMT
   Well for us the team leaders actually run the meetings, split up the tasks, and designate other responsibilities. Our coaches focus on helping us with programming and help us look at problems in our programs. Sometimes they do step in if the team leader needs help.



4. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/19/2007 15:12:18 GMT
   One team with strong team leadership roles 2 years ago was SMART from CT. Their contact info, from their profile, is
   
   SMART
   Send email to smartteam@stamfordrobotics.org



5. Message by: explode912486012 10/10/2007 18:57:28 GMT
   as a team leader you still have to do work and extra for being team leader



6. Message by: robotronicdragons2769 10/18/2007 02:33:27 GMT
   Why do we need team leaders? Why don't we just not hurt anyones feelings and just be a team? If you were chosen to be the leader would you think this? Please write back!
   
   - the robotronic dragons



7. Message by: blackattack1146 10/26/2007 16:49:18 GMT
   Our team leader trys to keep everyone organized and assigns members to different parts ofthe project ie; programming, strategy, and building!!!Also, he keeps us on task and makes sure we get our work done:)and i think that its good to have a leader(not to hurt feelings), but to keep everyone in check, and have your team pick the leader. that way they will feel comfortable with him/her.
   -Blackattack!!!



8. Message by: The Crew 11/03/2007 00:47:07 GMT
   In the case of leadership, the team coach is the one who should pick one, cause if you vote it often turns into a popularity contest.As for hurting peoples feelings, they should respect the team leader and suck it up. austin c. THE CREW



9. Message by: formerlynanoknights1560 11/19/2007 05:34:14 GMT
   We don't have official team leaders, though several applied for the position of Dictator. :-) The kids have shared leadership roles like teaching a workshop on gearing, sessions on containers and subroutines in Robolab, and helping guide programming. Everyone has given at least two oral reports to the group.

Discussion: Equipment Wanted By: WATCH3000 10/08/2007 19:27:54 GMT
You all were so helpful in helping us find some previous years playing mats that I thought I would try again.

Our group is growing by leaps and bounds and we are now looking for some more robots. We can not afford NXT's so we need 2 RCX 1.5 or 2.0 sets. If you upgraded to the NXT and need to get rid of your old sets please let me know.

Thanks

JoAnn Nolte
Team 3000
The Iron Fist

1. Message by: B/TREK 10/08/2007 19:27:54 GMT
   hi to all at the iron fist. i hope i'm not to late to help out in your pursuit to find 2 rcx"s. we have 2 (1.0 & 2.0) from years gone past, and you are every welcome to have them both. i have put batteries in them both and they power up. just let me know how you want to work this. and please no money.....
   therese martin
   therese_martin@charter.net
   B/TREK
   chief executive team administrator

Discussion: Is registration closed? By: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 09/26/2007 15:41:46 GMT
One of our local teams didn't get funding until today and attempted to register. When they clicked the links for "Click here to register your teams" and "Register today", there were instructions on how to register, but no blanks where information could be entered. The registration site says, "As of Sept. 24, 6382 teams registered in the U.S. and Canada" but it doesn't say that registration is closed. I directed them to the e-mail contact, but does anyone have more updated info?

Yolande

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/26/2007 12:48:37 GMT
   I was told two weeks ago by a FIRST representative that registration would close soon. That this year the available slots were selling out quickly. I do not know for sure, but I would guess that registration is therefore closed.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 09/26/2007 15:24:39 GMT
   If registration is closed, I would suggest working with your state partner to find out if any teams are dropping out. Sometimes that's not known until they don't sign up for a tournament, but sometimes teams express interest in giving up their slot.
   
   - Gary



2. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 09/26/2007 15:41:46 GMT
   I just found out that as of this morning (9/26), registration is still open. The team coach (and I) missed the "Continue" button following the list of links to information because our screens required scrolling to see it. The team is now safely registered (whew!).
   
   Yolande

Discussion: You Tube By: Ravenel3547 10/05/2007 15:38:47 GMT
I have a request for everyone that likes to post their teams on You Tube. Could you also post them on www.teachertube.com? There are several videos that I want to show my kids, but You Tube is banned by our district, as I'm sure it is for most districts. So the only way I can show them is to mail the links and hope the parents let them watch. If you post on Teacher Tube then schools can access it in the classroom. This would also be a great way to get more exposure for egos if kids can watch these videos in school!
Thanks!!

1. Message by: brian001 10/05/2007 15:38:47 GMT
   Huh. I wasn't aware of TeacherTube, and may try popping a few videos up there if I have something. Most of mine are personal LEGO creations, like the GBC, Packbot, a boat, etc... not, specificly, lessons, so I'm not sure how on-topic for the site they'd be. But a secure site for students and teachers away from the stuff that pops up on YouTube could be golden - thanks for the tip!
   
   --
   Brian Davis

Discussion: FLL team in Afghanistan By: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 10/26/2007 18:45:31 GMT
Last season, Heidi of the Gothic Lawn Gnomes posted regarding an FLL team in Afghanistan. The coach is Filipino, and the team consists of Filipino, Afghan, and American members. Because of the lack of proximity of other teams and cost of travel, his team has never actually attended an FLL event. However, because of donations from FLLers here in the U.S., he has been able to register a team and teach his students in Afghanistan. In the midst of a war-torn country, he shares FLL's mission of teamwork and technical accomplishment.

Recently, I received an e-mail that one of the Afghan team members was robbed, including the laptop that the coach lent him to learn the robotics software. The coach did not ask for donations, only prayers for the student's family and safety in general. Your prayers would be appreciated.

If you are interested in knowing more about the team, please drop me an e-mail.

Yolande
kyjjpetersen@hotmail.com

1. Message by: Woodstock FLL 10/10/2007 19:14:04 GMT
   Sorry that you were robbed dudes.



1. Message by: lawngnomes426 10/26/2007 18:45:31 GMT
   I am reposting my message here from another "discussion" in case others are following this one....
   
   Help Afghan team!
   
   lawngnomes426 - 05:04am Oct 26, 2007
   
   Hi everyone!
   
   I thought we might find some support for our adopted team in Afghanistan, the Kite Runners. Last year, both our team and theirs were novice teams. They managed to get an invitation to World Festival, but our government refused to give their coach and his family a visa, so they were not allowed to attend. If we as US citizens start writing letters to our congressmen about the FLL and the Kite Runner's team, maybe we can get them the visa that they need to be able to attend World Festival this year.
   
   Would anyone like to help us help them? They also need Rosetta Stone English so that the students can learn English, if anyone has it that they can give.
   
   Thank you.
   
   Coach Heidi and the Gothic Lawn Gnomes

Discussion: oil barrels By: lenihan2339 10/08/2007 20:43:46 GMT

Discussion: oil barrels By: lenihan2339 10/10/2007 15:12:45 GMT
Hi my name is James and I was wanting to know if the red oil barrels in the truck counted for the oil barrel that needs to be in the farm for the corn to count or if you have to have the mainly white barrel at the farm.

1. Message by: crazycreators252 10/09/2007 03:36:18 GMT
   James,
   The mission says at least one oil barrel. It doesn't say it has to be red or white or in the truck.
   
   It could be one of the oil barrels in the truck if you want to do it that way.
   
   Dave



1. Message by:015D2267 10/09/2007 18:48:13 GMT
   Are you asking if the barrel can be in the truck and delievered at the same time? I thought I had heard that you cannot do that, that it would be considered "bundling".



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/10/2007 15:12:45 GMT
   Nope, that would be "containerizing", which is legal. Bundling is when there is something physical (like string) holding scoring pieces together. If they are loose in a container, they are OK.
   
   - Gary

Discussion: extra non-field pieces By: The Crew 10/10/2007 15:16:23 GMT
The team I'm on has come up with the idea to put the truck on a ramp, and lift it to the farm, then leave the bottem part of it there.My question is, is that allowed or not allowed?

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 10/10/2007 15:16:23 GMT
   You are allowed to leave pieces behind on the field when completing a mission. If you want it left there, make sure the ref knows it's not a stray object.
   
   - Gary

Discussion: how did you get started By: Woodstock FLL 11/01/2007 23:51:20 GMT
Hi. My team just got started. Today we split up the work by having
people get into groups and we are going to rotate the groups with different jobs. If you have any suggestions on this write back.

1. Message by: CyberPueoz2946 10/10/2007 20:42:23 GMT
   Assuming you are first-timers like us, we divided our ten students into two groups where each got a kit. They went through the kit and divided/stored pieces in proper places. Then had tem start contructing the robots following the guide. We wanted to see how each group worked together. Students ranged from Grade 4-6. We also assigned tasks for the research part too. The group also keeps journals and we also have them grade each other on team criteria. Its been slow but we look at this year as a learning year for both students and advisors.
   CyberPueoz2946



1. Message by: awesome5188aces 10/30/2007 23:56:29 GMT
   Ya, we're new to this too and we just split up and programed diffent missions. We meet after school and use our computer lab so we have as many computers as we need. I think this has worked fine for now but I'm not sure about when we have to put them all in order with each other. XD



2. Message by: Robotik8 11/01/2007 23:51:20 GMT
   Hi Awesome Aces,
   
   You might want to try running several of your missions to see how long they take. Remember that during a tournament round, you only have 2.5 minutes, including change-outs. So run some mini-tournaments now. Pick several missions, the ones that are most reliable, and run them back to back as if you were at a tournament. Your timing will improve as you practice. Work on running a few missions reliably with quick change-outs and then add more as time allows.
   
   Muriel

Discussion: Map or picture of Power Puzzle Challenge mat By: Corning 10/12/2007 22:25:20 GMT
For planning purposes, I'm looking for the map in digital form.

1. Message by: crazybots4670 10/12/2007 02:07:17 GMT
   If you go to this site, http://www.techbrick.com/Lego/Lego2007/Resources/,
   you will find some maps of the mat.



1. Message by: Corning 10/12/2007 22:25:20 GMT
   Thank you very much.

Discussion: Power Puzzle domain name By: Light Savers 4284 10/12/2007 22:28:40 GMT
For the royal sum of $8.95, we grabbed the domain name, powerpuzzle.org. In all fairness, I let it sit all summer before jumping on it.
Right now, it is a pretty rudimentary website but, in the spirit of gracious professionalism, we want this to be a site where other teams can post information. Does your team have a website? Do you have a team picture? If so, let us know and we'll link to you from our website.
If you have any suggestions for this site, let us know. My son, William, is the webmaster. We hope to jazz it up a little in the next few weeks. He has a good command of asp and javascript so, if you have any ideas, pass them along and maybe we can incorporate them.

Discussion: robot starting mode By: panteras261 10/30/2007 17:35:13 GMT
when we were place our robot to do the first task we saw that our robot claw is out side the base (like 5cm) .
we know that the rule says that the robothas to be inside the base at starting mode but the thing is that the claw is part int he parking lot and part in the base of course not toucing it

is our robot allowed to have actual using parts in the parking lot or not??

thanks

1. Message by: lightsavers2634 10/14/2007 05:00:02 GMT
   Check out rule 18.
   (For ever start, every part of the robot must be in base.)
   
   -David (the kid)



1. Message by: legolegends1162 10/30/2007 17:35:13 GMT
   Specifically, if it is attached to the robot, it must all be in base. I believe you are allowed to go pick up a part with the robot, though?
   
   Coach Michelle
   Lego Legends 1162

Discussion: Designing an all-terrain robot By: Robotik8 10/31/2007 18:53:26 GMT
I am working with a veteran team. The kids have used a variety of strategies in the past to get the robot to go where it is supposed to go ... line-following, touch sensors, wall crawlers, squaring off against a wall. In the past, we have been careful to keep our table clean at home, and we clean off the tires at tournaments. Maybe we have given our 'bot too sheltered an existence. Any thoughts on additional techniques or strategies to make him rough and tough and all-terrain? How can we prepare our 'bot for dealing with dust, warped tables, bubbles in the mat and all the unexpected hardships of life?

Muriel

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/16/2007 23:39:29 GMT
   Muriel,
   
   I had a team once that was getting top scores at home and failed at competition. The mat was covered in fine saw dust from the table construction the night before. We had no traction and hence failed at the table.
   
   I have seen a robot that failed when its touch sensor in the bumper just happened to fall into a knot hole in the side wall.
   
   I have seen robots get hung up on protruding nail heads under the mat.
   
   I have seen spliters catch on wall followers.
   
   I have seen one very low slung robot get hung up on a dip in the table. Wheels spinning high and dry with the belly against the mat.
   
   I have seen robots get hung up because the table they practiced on had no lights.
   
   How about competition fields not set up quite to perfection.
   
   Or even tables that are horribly warped or mis sized.
   
   Or the table during a snow storm that accumulated grit from the kids placing their robot holders on the table.
   
   Or perhaps the tournament that was run on a partly cloudy/sunny day with the tables right next to a huge window.
   
   I think there is just too many variable to try to account for all of them.
   
   I do think that teams that have multiple tables to test on are better off than those that practice on just one. Also make sure to practice in bright light, and then go and turn all the lights off!
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: CGMSC745 10/19/2007 18:17:34 GMT
   Well, you could build a second practice table and then beat the heck out of it with a sledge hammer. Mash up the mat so it is full of wrinkles, drops some small rocks on the table then install the mat, pour on some sand and add a couple big piles of hair, put a brick under one of the table legs ...
   
   Actually sounds like fun. I might have to schedule an extra meeting after the last tournament. See how our robot does, and how fast the kids can fix/change the 'bot and/or programs to still ccomplish some of the missions.



2. Message by: awesome5188aces 10/30/2007 23:40:26 GMT
   hi im having a problem because our robot will not stop wiggling. what could i do to stop it from doing this?
   
   thank you very much! XD



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/31/2007 02:12:31 GMT
   Without a lot more information its hard to tell. Start by at least telling us if you are using NXT or RCX. Then describe the motor/gear/wheel system you are using. Next tell us about the caster (third wheel) you are using. And tells us what the wiggle looks like. How far side to side, does it get worst the farther it goes?
   
   -Skye



3. Message by: awesome5188aces 10/31/2007 18:53:26 GMT
   Thanks skye but i think we got it. it was becaues we were using only one wheel on the back so it was unstable. thank you for all your help anyways! XD

Discussion: can we use notes By: panicstrickenbrainychickens998 10/24/2007 19:35:46 GMT
we would like to know if one of the robot oparators can bring notes to the challenge table to refer to during the robot game

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/24/2007 13:02:27 GMT
   Read Q7.19 in the UFAQ at www.fll-freak.com.faq
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: CGMSC745 10/24/2007 19:35:46 GMT
   www.fll-freak.com/faq
   
   Yes, you can bring notes to the table as long as they are not used to align the robot, as part of the robot, etc.
   
   It would be pretty cool to make an arm band note card similar to the one quarterbacks use in the NFL for their play lists.

Discussion: Looking for a good laugh By: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 10/25/2007 06:38:53 GMT
I recently encountered a team that had 2 challenge models built. The rationale was *Why should we build models for missions we don*t have time to work on?* At least they had one mission that was working. I wish I could say the same for my own (Vex) team. We are on iteration number 3 of the chassis, 4th appendage idea, and neither is connected to the other. Missions accomplished: 0, programming done: none. Potential points/match: 0 (with Vex, there are no oil barrels :-( ). There comes a point in the season where everyone can use a good laugh (or a good cry), and I think this is it. Here is my contribution to the cause * it*s a bit old and has been around the techie circuit, but I always smile when I see it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvyupNXK-4A

The caption in Norwegian translates "There are many young engineers out there. We can*t wait to see them grow up."

Yolande

Discussion: Help Afghan team! By: lawngnomes426 01/13/2008 02:46:06 GMT
Hi everyone!

I thought we might find some support for our adopted team in Afghanistan, the Kite Runners. Last year, both our team and theirs were novice teams. They managed to get an invitation to World Festival, but our government refused to give their coach and his family a visa, so they were not allowed to attend. If we as US citizens start writing letters to our congressmen about the FLL and the Kite Runner's team, maybe we can get them the visa that they need to be able to attend World Festival this year.

Would anyone like to help us help them? They also need Rosetta Stone English so that the students can learn English, if anyone has it that they can give.

Thank you.

Coach Heidi and the Gothic Lawn Gnomes

1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/01/2007 00:37:27 GMT
   Heidi,
   
   Do you have specific congressmen in mind? I'm thinking that if one or 2 people get multiple requests about the same thing, they're more likely to take action than if all the requests get spread to different people (I could be wrong here). If you have a specific name and address, that would be helpful.
   
   Yolande



1. Message by: cglf631 01/11/2008 19:40:40 GMT
   Heidi, Gothic Lawn Gnomes, and Kite Runners,
   
   I ran across this discussion rather late, so likely any suggestions I'd have wouldn't help.
   
   In the meantime...the team I coach has launched a small "fantasy" FLL tournament that doesn't call for any travel at all...they are emphasizing having fun and not taking everything all too seriously, by asking teams they can tell enjoy a good laugh to share some video, photos, and other FLL results in a mail-in/e-mail competition. Technically, it's a "local" competition in the Northern California region, but for this one "local" means "Planet Earth" or maybe even "local solar system". Both your team and your partner team would be very welcome in this group. If it sounds like fun, check the team's website at http://www.freewebs.com/worms4d/mudd2007.html
   
   Vanessa
   Coach, Mega Ultimate Demon Dudes



2. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 01/13/2008 02:46:06 GMT
   Heidi,
   
   I'm taking the liberty of posting an edited version of the e-mail you sent me a while back, which was brought to mind by the latest post. It's such a great story!
   
   --------------
   Dear Yolande,
   
   I wanted you to know that we were able to get the Kite Runners their field setup kit, registration, FLL NXT kit, standard NXT Kit AND a laptop computer!
   
   WE just had our State Championship today and the Kite Runners were able to participate by sending video of their project presentation and then talking with the presentation judges live via Skype. It was AWESOME! They were given the *Against All Odds* award.
   
   Thank you for joining with us to support their team. Now, there is a family they helped (by doing their project) that would like to have their children participate. We may be able to help start another FLL team! How cool is that?!
   
   Thanks
   (a very tired) Heidi

Discussion: Robot By: The Crew 12/17/2007 17:10:11 GMT
There is a site where someone built a robot flusher, WITH INSTRUCTIONS!!! I built it, but the NXT motor does not have enough torque to flush mine. HELP PLEASE!!!
The site is: BattleBricks.com

Connor Henson

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/31/2007 02:13:33 GMT
   Perhaps their flush mechanism does not need as much torque. You may have to research gears and gear boxes to solve your problem.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: crazycreators252 10/31/2007 02:42:03 GMT
   Your toilet is most likely a different model and requires more force to push the handle to flush it. Try adjusting the float in the toilet tank to limit the water to say 1/2 tank so the flusher valve has less pressure on it. This will possibly make the flusher handle easier to push.



2. Message by: CosmicCrusaders 12/17/2007 17:10:11 GMT
   Possibly a good chance to try some gear reduction to give you the torque you need.

Discussion: Question and answer By: northwest robotics 11/02/2007 04:47:26 GMT
How do you ask a question?

1. Message by: northwest robotics 11/02/2007 02:20:05 GMT
   How do you ask a question on the question-answer website?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/02/2007 03:03:50 GMT
   I am assuming that you have a question you want to ask?
   
   If so, then you would be wise to read this first:
   
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?230@@.ee9b35b
   
   After that, its as simple as finding the right section to post your question in, and asking it!
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: bears299 11/02/2007 04:47:26 GMT
   If you want an official answer, email your question to flltech@usfirst.org. You will get a personal response, and if enough people ask the same question, it will be posted on the QA page.
   
   Linda

Discussion: parking lot pieces By: The Crew 11/04/2007 06:10:21 GMT
Hi World, I was wondering can you move all the parking lot pieces around to suit our plan?
Justin C. THE CREW

1. Message by: lightsavers2634 11/04/2007 06:10:21 GMT
   Yes, you can move around the mission models that start off in the parking lot. You could even start them out on the floor or a small table if you like.
   
   -David (the kid)

Discussion: What comes with the Educational kit? By: FLL-Freak 11/07/2007 04:44:55 GMT
Could someone who has both a retail and education NXT kit tell me the differences? I am paticulary interested in number of sensors and if the educational version comes with a test mat like the comercial version does.

-Skye

1. Message by: zap4702 11/05/2007 20:43:05 GMT
   I don't have any retail kits to compare, but our Edu. kits came with 3 motors, 1 sound sensor, 1 light sensor, 2 touch sensors, 1 ultrasonic sensor, the rechargeable battery, 7 wires of varying lengths, plus 3 conversion wires to use the old sensors.
   
   They have a reasonable assortment of parts but very few of the new-style connectors and *no* hassenpins.
   
   There's no test mat.
   
   Doreen



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 20:46:00 GMT
   Thanks.
   
   I was hoping for a test mat. I am writting a book on line following for FLL and wanted to use the test mat that comes with my commercial kit. I will have to think of something else to use as a test mat!
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: zap4702 11/05/2007 20:47:57 GMT
   That sounds like a great resource - we'll be looking forward to it! Will you have it ready for coaches to use before next season?
   
   Doreen



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/05/2007 20:51:58 GMT
   I hope! The last year and a half I have been very very vey busy at work. Little time to do anything. Last week, the project finished and I will have some breathing time. So now I will try to finish up a dozen projects that got put on hold including the 'book' on line following.
   
   When I say book, I really mean an online document like the Coaches' Primer.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/07/2007 04:44:24 GMT
   I am seeing several test mats in the Lego Education catalog (K991247 has a large oval and is $13 for a pack of 5). There are a few others that don't look quite as good or are more expensive.
   
   Yolande



2. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 11/07/2007 04:26:50 GMT
   Skye,
   I know this doesn't have much to do with your question, but I've been gleaning info on the various versions for some local teams and thought it might be useful to bring it all together. This seems as good a place as any to put it. As always, author assumes no liability or responsibility for the accuracy of content yada yada...
   
   Yolande
   -----------------------
   
   NXT Kit summary * Retail vs. Educational vs. FLL kits
   
   Retail ($250)
   Software: NXT with Robocenter tutorial -- building instructions for 3 models
   Hardware: 3 motors, 1 sensor each of light, sound, touch, ultrasonic (one less touch sensor than educational version), more plastic pieces than educational version
   Battery: No rechargeable battery included
   Test Mat: Included
   
   Educational Base set ($250 * Part K979797)
   Software: None included.
   Hardware: 3 motors, 1 sensor each of light, sound, and ultrasonic; 2 touch sensors (one more touch sensor than the retail version). Fewer plastic pieces than the retail version.
   Battery: Rechargeable battery included
   Test Mat: Not included
   
   Educational Base set add-ons and alternatives:
   * Software: NXT 1.1 ($49 - Part 700077) Robot Educator Tutorial -- 39 lessons (considered superior to the Robocenter tutorial)
   * Homeschool Bundle Pack ($284 * part 979917) Includes the Educational Base Set and NXT 1.1 for a $15 savings over purchasing these 2 items separately
   * Education Resource Set ($59 * part K979648) * 671 Technic pieces in storage bin with sorting trays.
   
   FLL NXT Kit ($350??) - Available only May * Sept. with team registration
   (This was reported to me by a Lego Education representative -- someone correct me if I'm wrong)
   Kit includes:
   * Educational Base set (worth $250)
   * NXT 1.1 ($49)
   * Education Resource Set ($59)
   * May include additional materials, but I don*t know if/what they are
   
   I'm personally recommending that the teams purchase the Homeschool Bundle kit plus the Educational Resource set. Though it's a bit more than the Retail kit, you get the superior tutorial, rechargeable battery, and additional plastic pieces -- best of all worlds, and you don't have to wait for May.

Discussion: Line following algorithms By: FLL-Freak 12/07/2007 06:02:38 GMT
Coaches,

I am in the middle of writing a document/book on line following for FLL robots. Over the years my team has come up with a few different algorithms that they use. All are based on the single light sensor "Shades Of Gray" method. I was hoping to introduce a few other methods including two sensor "Straddle" methods, and the single sensor "Drunkard's Walk".

To prevent violating the FLL ethics guideline, the book is written as a series of experiments to run. They are designed to lead to a working line following robot only if they run the experiments and learn the basics.

What I would like is to hear if teams have come up with other methods that they might be willing to share with ME. I would then consider introducing the concept in the book via experiments.

I am also interested in your experiences with teaching line following. How did you approach the problem? What algorithm did you teach? How did you teach it? What kind of robot did you use? How did you help them debug the algorithm? ...

You can send offline to me at Skye@fll-freak.com if you do not want to share in the open.

-Skye

1. Message by: formerlynanoknights1560 11/13/2007 23:24:41 GMT
   My husband and daughter wrote a line following program that was really fast. The lighter/darker the input, the greater the corresponding correction. I don't know what formula they used--seems like it had something to do with a parabola...?
   
   My own abilities in this realm are limited. Even the concept of finding the average light value to establish a threshold has been a learning experience for our team. We haven't gotten any fancier than having it automaticaly calculate that threshold and put it in a container.
   
   I would welcome a tool like you describe to help them explore this.
   Tammy
   formerlynanoknights



1. Message by: Highlanders 5947 12/07/2007 06:02:38 GMT
   Hi, my name is Patrick, and I thought this was an interesting topic. So here I am writing my two cents.
   
   I*ve been in Lego robotics for four years now, and I*m thoroughly sucked into the programming world of Robolab. Now, before I say anything, I thought you might want to check out this video of some pretty cool line following bots.
   http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3180671908341364722
   
   As Tammy said, sampling light values is a priority, as to adjust for various lighting.
   I*ve used NXT and RCX, and I would definitely say that the NXT is far, far superior for line following.
   A few of the algorithms I had the most luck with are listed below.
   
   1. This code actually came with the Robolab 2.9.3 patch. How it worked was by reading the light value, putting it through a mathematical sequence, then giving each motor a different power level depending on the number that came out of the sequence. So basically, the motors were being controlled by what the light sensor read.
   I experimented with it by changing every single variable throughout a wide range.
   So in the end, I had a *cheat sheet* of sorts, with outcomes of many combinations of variables, including combos that worked best when carrying a large load, some for going around corners, some for going straight, and many others. Like how fast it could zero in on the line. Oh, did I mention that it went PERFECTLY STRAIGHT?!?!? That*s right, almost no *waddling.*
   With all the factors above, this was and is my favorite line-following code.
   
   2. This code uses 2 sensors, and has two variations. One on each side of the line,
   Or two right next to each other. It basically worked like the *if on light, go towards dark, if on dark, go towards light* method. What made it better, was the two light sensors were both running the same code (on a split task). Then the two tasks would *communicate*
   With each other, so one would not over drive.
   This made it much more responsive and accurate. But with the two sensors, it was somewhat *input hogging*
   
   Any ways, that*s a couple of the methods I*ve experimented with.
   
   And there are just a few tips I would like to add about working with light sensors.
   
   1. ALWAYS sample the light on a known color of
   surface to make up for differing ambient light.
   
   2. Try to mount the light sensor at an angle to minimize reflections off the table.
   
   3. Try to block the sensor from anything that could change its readings. (Like shadows).
   
   4. Make sure that the sensor is not on the ground, keep it close to the mat, but not too close.
   
   Patrick (team member)

Discussion: Field kit use After the tournament By: L.E.A.D2859 11/28/2007 00:22:06 GMT
What do teams do with their feild kits after the tournaments? I have bins full of stuff and would like to know what people do with theirs after the season. Thanks.

1. Message by: zap4702 11/15/2007 18:05:56 GMT
   I've heard that a lot of teams just take them apart and add the lego parts to their inventory.
   
   Other teams keep them and use them for robotics classes or fun practice in the off-season.
   
   I've always thought it would be great if there were some way to make old kits available to people/schools that are planning to start a new team, so they could have something to learn on before their first season.
   
   Kits are generally worth a fair bit on ebay, so some teams sell theirs to raise money.
   
   Doreen



1. Message by: lightsavers2634 11/18/2007 05:29:01 GMT
   I used The Ocean Odyssey mission models in combination with the RCX to make a pinball machine. However we usually use the kits to make next years robot.
   
   -David (the kid)



2. Message by: MOEbots 11/19/2007 16:03:43 GMT
   I keep them to use parts for the next mission



3. Message by: LabRats887 11/21/2007 02:59:34 GMT
   I have 2 sets each from Mission Mars to PowerPuzzle. This year the kids had a good time looking at them at one meeting & "remembering when". Then they tried to come up with a way to use them on the robot for this year's missions. The catapult from Mars was a hot prospect. We ended up not using any, but at our mini tournament a couple of teams pushed the molecular motor from last year out as a wave generator. I guess when the closet gets full I'll have to come up with something, but it sure seems a shame to take them apart.



4. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 11/28/2007 00:22:06 GMT
   We still have most of last year's Nanoquest models intact. I wouldn't let the kids use them at first ... but someone needed "something heavy" and there went the truck-lifter, and someone else needed "something long" and the space elevator was just too tempting ... so I guess now we'll just wreck it all and put it in inventory. We'll keep PP for the spring training sessions.

Discussion: coal energy supply By: The Crew 11/19/2007 00:13:10 GMT
Hi All, I was wondering if when you put the coal at the energy plant , if you could connect the coal together? Please respond soon.

1. Message by:0222520A 11/19/2007 00:13:10 GMT
   No. This question has been answered many times and is covered in the rules (you don't even have to read the length Q&A). You cannot attach any of the mission models together, and you can only attach pieces to the trees. And in the case of the trees you cannot attach two trees to the same piece/pieces.
   
   Anyway, you don't want to be snapping the coal pieces together at the table. Your time can more profitably be spent doing other tasks.

Discussion: ending By: MOEbots 11/21/2007 16:08:40 GMT
does a piece of the robot have to end in the water?

1. Message by: The Eagles 11/19/2007 16:05:25 GMT
   What would make you think that?



1. Message by: MOEbots 11/19/2007 16:11:36 GMT
   What are Wave Turbines and how do you build one and do you have to end in the water??



1. Message by: The Eagles 11/19/2007 16:47:07 GMT
   I think someone already answered this for you elsewhere, but they are anything you want to build that satisfy the mission requirements. It has to be moved TO the water. Take a look at Rule 12 if you don't understand what that means.



2. Message by: MOEbots 11/19/2007 16:13:08 GMT
   What are you suppose to do at the end?



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/19/2007 18:48:12 GMT
   Turn off the robot and go over the scoring with the referee.
   
   - Gary



2. Message by: The Eagles 11/19/2007 19:31:48 GMT
   Your robot can stop wherever you would like it to.



3. Message by: lightsavers2634 11/21/2007 03:01:37 GMT
   Your robot could even flip off the table onto the floor and do a a little dance. :)
   
   -David (the kid)



4. Message by: MOEbots 11/21/2007 16:08:40 GMT
   thank you for the answers. It really helped.

Discussion: Use of the Forum By: 015D2267 11/29/2007 16:31:07 GMT
Is the forum for coaches or kids? There have been several questions lately that seem to be from kids or at least very young adults. I try to read the forum on a regular basis but many of these questions, which are easily answered by reading the FAD's and Rules, are taking a lot of my time. I am a firm believer in "there is no such thing as a stupid question" but the forum is getting a little silly. Gracious professionalism, to me, means using this forum in a professional manner.

If my team has a question, we look through all the available resources first, discuss the question and then I post it if we are unclear. I have them handle a question the same way I would handle one with my boss.

Thank you to the people who maintain this forum and to those who have thought provoking questions and solid answers.

1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 11/29/2007 15:35:29 GMT
   The forum is for TEAMS. How your team chooses to use the forum is up to you. Some coaches prefer not to let their kids post. Others, after a discussion like you cite, will tell the team, "OK, that's a valid question. Who will post it on the forum?"
   
   Part of the problem with repeat questions is that various parts of the country have different competition schedules. Most of the regionals in Michigan have been completed, and the State Tournaments are coming up Dec 8 and 15. Other areas compete later in Jan and Feb. As each team gets to a certain spot in the design, build and test processes, the same questions tend to pop up. That's why there are multiple threads about trees, oil barrels, parking lot, etc. If teams would take the time to fully research their questions, many of them would be answered without starting another thread. But there's always a new twist, so there will always be reasons for new questions.
   
   - Gary



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/29/2007 16:31:07 GMT
   The policy for the Forum (as specified by FIRST) is displayed each time you log in. I have repeated it here after my sig.
   
   -Skye
   
   Disclaimers:
   1. The forum is intended for team use only and is not a source for official FLL postings or replies.
   2. FIRST LEGO League requires that an adult be present at all times while team members are viewing the forum.
   3. The coach is responsible for closely monitoring all team member submissions to the forum.
   4. FLL and the LEGO Web Administrator reserve the right to revoke privileges fom any team that misuses the forum.
   
   Important Notice to FLL Coaches: The FLL community web forum was created for constructive communication, problem solving, and idea sharing between teams. It is not the intent of FLL to closely monitor the forum. We enlist your support as team coach to maintain appropriate, value added forum discussions.
   
   All teams are encouraged to practice the gracious professionalism motto as stated in the Director's Award Description:
   
   ...demonstrating respect, encouragement, and continued gracious professionalism in the heat of competition, both in and out of the arena.
   
   Thank you for your understanding and cooperation
   
   TIP:
   To get the most out of your visits to the forum, be sure to read "Quick Help" and "How to Ask a Good Question". These two documents are available in the Forum help folder.
   
   Thank you

Discussion: 2007 Challenge too easy? By: 0222520A 01/05/2008 18:37:22 GMT
We had our first Minnesota qualifying tournament a couple of weeks ago and I was looking over the results. The scores were very high, averaging 195 points! This particular tournament draws some of our most experienced teams, but this year 2/3 of the teams were age 9-11 (we divide teams into two categories based on age). Many of the young teams were rookie teams.

My team is using sensors and some mechanical navigation tricks to get near six sigma reliability, but they've found that even crude methods are adequate to complete any of this year's missions (getting them all done in time is another manner).

So other than being overly complex and the rules being muddy, what is your opinion of this year's challenge? Are the missions too easy or too hard? Are the mission models reliable? Do you like the new mat (mine has ripples)?

1. Message by: GallopingGirls4205 11/30/2007 22:31:10 GMT
   Personally My team has found it to be quite difficult. We are rookies, with no professionals in our area helping us. We are going to be happy to get 2 missions completed. We have no clue on how to get the sensors to work. This was one that was over our head. LOL....



1. Message by: redrobots2969 11/30/2007 22:48:43 GMT
   I'm interested to see how our Qualifying tournament goes tomorrow in Monroe, Michigan as I haven't seen many postings on the forum about results this year. I'm assuming there have been some 400 scores but haven't heard about that either. We packed our things up last night after performing one last grouping of presentation and robot runs. This team is made up of 12-13 year olds and most in their 4th season of FLL. They were able to finish all of the missions within the 2:30 minutes (5-15 sec. left) so I don't know if it is all based on the fact that they are more experienced or if the missions are truly easier this year.
   
   Even in our 4th year we still did not manage to incorporate sensors to improve movement accuracy. They did use sensors for program navigation so the robot can run one program and handle 6 robot trips out and back with the use of those sensors.
   
   Overall I'd say that the missions were easier than past years but definitely not a cake walk.
   
   Our mat was fine other than slightly too wide but it held up nicely. The biggest issue I've noticed over the years with some teams is they don't keep the mat rolled up, printed side out and in a cylinder. Many roll it up and keep it in the triangle box which I can't understand why FIRST does that. Others roll it up with the printed side in and then wonder why the ends are curling up. Yes, double sided carpet tape helps this but they can help themselves quite a bit if they roll it up and store it properly.
   
   Phil Martin, Co-Coach
   Red Robots #2969



2. Message by: The Eagles 12/01/2007 00:10:43 GMT
   No mission is particularly difficult. I would agree that the hard part is getting them all done in 2 1/2 minutes.
   
   The unknown is how fast you have to get to the Solar Satellite to be first. That has kept my team constantly thinking of how they could get there faster (which I think is a good thing).
   
   Our regional saw a 400 with an NXT followed by a 397 with an RCX!



3. Message by: crazybots1334 12/01/2007 03:09:31 GMT
   As a rookie team we found that simple worked the best. There are too many missions, and with the research project, a small team cannot afford to do complex stuff. Seems that there is too much emphasis on team work on the scoring that penalizes the teams that want to split up the tasks based on interest. Over all, not enough time to learn, build and practice. I can say my team got it all done and did ok in the competition, but not sure how much fun they really had. This competition is certainly not a recruiting ground for our high school robotics team, and does not teach gracious professionalism. The FRC competition much more effectively promotes and demonstrates gracious professionalism.
   
   Crazybots 1334



4. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/01/2007 06:21:26 GMT
   I'd say the missions were easier than last year. Lots of easy pushing. There were two precision drops (arm bone and molecular motor) last year that we had a lot of trouble with, but we were rookies last year too. And the table of doom was very tricky too. This year we were able to attempt all the missions with reasonable solutions that had some hope of working. We didn't get over 140 at the tournament, but given infinite time to run AND everything working AND the planets aligned we could have acheived 300. I don't think even with infinite time we could have got over 150 last year.



5. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/01/2007 08:37:13 GMT
   In the last 2 years, a difficult climbing challenge has been absent. Prior to that, there was mounting the ship deck to deploy the sub (2005), climbing the stairs (2004), and entering the crater (2003). Having to build a bot to conquer the mechanical obstacle often introduced constraints that affected other missions.
   
   Yolande



6. Message by: lightsavers2634 12/02/2007 06:56:06 GMT
   This year's missions are rather easy, but again the catch is getting it done within 2.5 minutes. This year's field seems to address reliability a little more then previous years. Last year you could get away with trying a certain program 3 or 4 times and achieve a perfect score on that "lucky run". But this year doesn't really allow for much of that.
   
   Just my two cents
   
   -David (the kid)



7. Message by: DarkMatter563 12/03/2007 02:05:47 GMT
   Our regional is relatively early -- November 10 -- and I was surprised when our team scored 355-355-365. They've never done that well at a regional.
   
   I'm disappointed that there are no missions that are much of a technical challenge for the team. There are too many missions done easily by dead-reckoning drive-out drive-back. I wish there were a few missions that required team members to learn to use navigation with sensors. I know that easy missions are needed for rookies to learn with.
   
   Yes, it's a real headache to get all of those simple tasks done in the time allotted -- and that's another reason I don't like this years challenge as much as most of the others -- it's too much like work :) - but maybe that was part of the idea of this year's challenge.
   
   Our mat still has ripples even after laying out on the table since August - but I'm glad it does - in fact, I wish it had more ripples just like the mats the team will encounter at the tournament next Saturday morning.
   
   -Dave (the coach) :)



8. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 10:13:47 GMT
   We were expecting a more difficult challenge this season after the Nanoquest. Last year it rained perfect scores, so our idea was that more precision navigation would be needed this year. But actually the difficulty in general is less. Only the amount of tasks is more. I think there will be lots of perfect scores this year as well.
   
   I*m sure that we need a different type of challenge with the *easy NXT* machines, so narrow passages, climbing, wall following.
   So that there will be a need to use sensors again
   We need to see creativity in robots again, not only constructopedia NXT bots with a minor change.
   
   My team builds robots using *normal* Lego Technic - no studless techniques, RCX driven and scoring 400 in this Power Puzzle in tournament conditions. To make it even more challenging we have 6 members Tagging during the match, what a sight!
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !



1. Message by: DarkMatter563 12/04/2007 13:31:52 GMT
   We have seven members tagging -- :) -- that does make for a lot of fun and excitement, doesn't it!



2. Message by: TechHEds410 12/10/2007 01:13:10 GMT
   We expected it to be harder this year to provide a challenge for NXT. As a strategic thing (ridiculously large Fairness Bonus), we used RCX to the regional championship (last Friday). This is our third season. In the previous years, we've aimed for about 300 points and not been sure of that until the last week. This time we were achieving up to 365 several weeks ago and we won the Robot game with scores of 295, 305, 315 and 335. So yes, we were really surprised that the missions are mostly easy pushing tasks. In our last round, the operators stood at the end for about 30 secs, having finished all the missions we could do - so we have scope for improving for the UK final.
   
   We freely admit that we are using simple fixed axle and rotation sensor navigation - we tried using the light sensor but there is too much junk on the mat. We did discover that we can get a much more efficient and accurate result in RoboLab (2.9.3) if we write our own loop to check the rotation sensor against a variable, rather than using the in-built Wait Until Angle Sensor block. The team talked about that in the tech pres and it went down well.



9. Message by: PowerStackers 12/04/2007 16:48:28 GMT
   PowerStackers Team have been tagging during match for last 2 seasons. We had 7 & 8 members. This season, we even have 9 members. We called it "Teamwork".
   
   PowerStackers



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 17:33:30 GMT
   In my opinion as a coach I truely find tagging a must. Okay teamwork was mentioned but also to increase awareness and the involvement of all teammembers.
   Last season we had a 10 memberteam => 10 tagging, this year 6 teammembers and all of them tagging.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by:0222520A 12/04/2007 21:50:15 GMT
   Or you could have smaller teams. Four to five is my limit.



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 22:09:48 GMT
   Hi Dean,
   I think it all depends on your own ideas. Speaking for myself, I find it no problem at all to handle a big team. But okay I have 4 kids and a dog everyday around. Not to mention my beautiful wife. So a FLL team is actually a kind of vacation.. To come back at the core idea, yes whatever the teamsize is, I favour tagging because each kid will be in the spotlights at the table. It is such an experience, I have one kid in the team who started so shy she would duck under the table, and has become selfconfident. A marvel. She has grown a lot due to FLL



1. Message by: bears299 12/04/2007 23:18:15 GMT
   At a practice tournament sponsored by our state tournament, we were told that tagging would not be allowed this year. I think it was because of having 102 teams, and the crowding that would result. When I told my team, they immediately chose 2 members to run the robot, with no hard feelings (as far as I could tell).
   
   Amazingly (I'm still shaking), my team won the Champion's Award at the state tournament, and has been invited to the World Festival. I assume from your comments that tagging is allowed there. If we go, we will probably use that method.
   
   Now, you are probably wondering about my "if" statement. Of course, we are thrilled and honored to be invited. However, my school district has never allowed elementary students to travel out of state for events. Also, it involves time away from work and school, not to mention a lot of money, to attend. Everyone is still dazed by the situation, and the first thoughts were along the line of "isn't Lego supposed to be over now?" but today I have received a few emails from parents saying they could see the cultural experience value, and might be interested in going. So we shall see what happens!
   
   Linda



1. Message by: DarkMatter563 12/05/2007 05:28:07 GMT
   Congratulations! The World Festival is a great experience, not to be missed if you have the chance to go. We were lucky to go last year - each team member travelled with their parents. We didn't consider school rules about going since we made it an all-around family affair. We also had grandparents attending, and family members from other states travelling to meet us in Atlanta - some coming from California. (We are from Michigan)



2. Message by: TechHEds410 12/10/2007 01:14:17 GMT
   We tagged team members in pairs in the last two seasons but this year have four members who participate in running the robot, but only two at a time for the whole 2.5 mins.



10. Message by: Botsquad888 12/10/2007 20:41:05 GMT
    I'm a fifth year coach and have coached from 20 kids (divided into 2 teams) to only having 3 kids this year. From the original 20 kids other parents have taken up the coaching baton and have gone on to experience the "Joyous, Thrilling, Wonderful, Exciting Challenge" of coaching a FLL team. We now have three teams that have come from that first group and it is GREAT!
    
    I must say that this year's missions have been easier than many in the past. I agree that the challenge has been the time factor. I have a less experienced team this year but they were able to figure out a way to combine missions to give a try at each one of them. We can do them all (if everything goes perfectly) and still have a few seconds left over (few, like 3-5), but that doesn't happen every time.
    
    The disappointing thing is that we used no sensors to accomplish this year's missions. With the NXT the kids find all the adjustments they need within the motors and the program. The kids said it wasn't worth the hassle to incorporate other sensors when there was no real "need" for them. I read elsewhere a note from Skye stating his sadness at this fact. I must agree. One of the things I enjoyed was having the kids work out gears, ratios, torque, speed and such with the RCX, not to mention having to build in your own rotation sensor. My team did play with the idea of using a light sensor or touch sensor, but found it more hassle than it was worth because they could just use the built-in rotation sensor, speed adjustments, and curving ability to accomplish all they needed.
    
    A suggestion to help re-establish this type of learning would be to design a specific mission that mandates the use of a light sensor; and a mission mandating the use of a touch sensor. This would require the kids to use those parts of the program and robot that have been easily set aside because of the ease of the NXT program.
    
    I agree also with what has been mentioned about the climbing aspect of the missions. That is usually quite a challenge and it is always great to see what the kids come up with. Robots built to follow lines or push things don't always work when it comes to climbing over things. An all-terrain robot becomes a necessary part of the planning and this has always made my teams stretch their imaginations. There should always be something to climb!
    
    I agree, as has been mentioned elsewhere that the Rubric needs to be changed and adapted to accommodate the new programming, robots, and the developing ideas of teamwork. What has been used in the past as the "rule" for these areas (programming, technical, and teamwork) should be re-evaluated and re-designed.
    
    One other thing that must be mentioned. There are always rookie teams and more experienced teams and this will always be the case. As I look back to our first year I realize it was a disaster!! We were so green! But, somehow, we qualified to go to the State Tournament. We got "slaughtered" there, but we learned soooo much! For those new coaches and teams out there that seem lost or discouraged, TAKE HEART! Don't worry about it! Have Fun! Grab every opportunity to enter any and all competitions for it is there that you will learn much and grow! Remind your team that the "great" teams out there with their
    "awesome" robots started right where you are and got better by learning from better teams and just gettin' out there and doing it!!
    
    And remember, coaches, it is not about us. The Gracious Professionalism starts in the leadership and more is "caught than taught"
    
    Just my thoughts so far for this season.
    
    Coach G. Call
    Team: Botsquad



1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/10/2007 22:45:58 GMT
   I agree that a light sensor challenge would be a welcome addition, and not just line-following, which can sometimes be replaced with pure odometry. The "deflect the white sign only, leave the red signs untouched, with random mixing" challenge from No Limits (2004) stretched the students in this way.
   
   There should always be some easy challenges so that starter teams can feel like they "accomplished something" and some harder challenges to push the more experienced teams.
   
   Yolande



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 23:10:24 GMT
   i "deflect the white sign only, leave the red signs untouched, with random mixing"
   
   And yet it was the rare team that used a light sensor to solve that mission. Most just ran one of three programs based on the random position that was visible to them prior to the start of the match. I know that FIRST was very disapointed.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 12/13/2007 20:38:01 GMT
   I would be strongly opposed to "mandated" sensors. But I would strongly support harder missions, and I mean much harder. Missions or rules that effectively made using sensors the only good way to solve the problem. Climbing is another good difficulty, as is size: having to be small enough to get to an area, for example.
   
   I would like to see more autonomy, which means penalizing grabs much more highly, and which indirectly would increase sensor use.
   
   On the positive side this year are the inter-dependence between missions. That clearly made them think and weigh tradeoffs.
   
   --Jack Gregory



1. Message by: zap4702 12/13/2007 21:50:17 GMT
   I disagree that a higher grab penalty will increase autonomy. It might hold true for more experienced teams, but for less capable teams, a higher penalty means they will take fewer and fewer risks, hoarding the few points they can get easily. And I think one of the main reasons that teams don't use sensors is that they feel their robots are more reliable using odometry - it feels risky to use the sensors if you don't really understand them, but you know what will happen with odometry.
   
   The grabs were penalized much more this year, but for low and mid-scoring teams that I observed, the real result was that they didn't take chances when they were running the robots. I saw lots of teams this year that made the decision not to grab the robot and try a mission again, because they would have lost that 10 points and it would have made a relatively big difference in their ranking. I thought that was really sad. I haven't seen that in the past two years when the penalty was lower.
   
   I also saw, in my own team and others that I spoke to, choices not to do a risky mission because it was not worth much more than the potential oil barrel loss.
   
   I think the reality for most teams is that a higher penalty means less risk-taking, and therefore less learning all around.
   
   Doreen



1. Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 12/13/2007 22:20:51 GMT
   I think your point is good, Doreen; not every idea will have the hoped-for effect. But I think you make my point. They take the grab cost into account.
   
   I wish that it was a Very Bad Thing to plan to touch your robot, and a Bad Thing to have to touch your robot. If a team knew during planning that a grab would cost them 100 points, they sure as heck would not "plan" to grab the robot.
   
   I think planned grabs are the sign that we are not teaching autonomy. And planned grabs are what you get with weak penalties.
   
   I haven't seen a lot of planned grabs this year, though every team seems to have a plan (either a grab or a no grab) for emergencies. That is better than the things I have seen in the past, where the robot had no prayer of getting back, and one of the team was stationed out to grab it and run back.
   
   --Jack Gregory



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/13/2007 23:48:31 GMT
   At the state level I think grabs were less this year. But I think that has more to do with where the base was located. Having it in the center makes almost all spots on the mat a straight shot out and back.
   
   I know that early in the season my team would schedule in grabs to save time. Normaly these would be removed before the state tourney. It may not be elegant but it is a strategy.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: Chicnology 12/14/2007 02:47:10 GMT
   Absolutely Skye.
   
   When the base is at the "end" of the field...and grabs are only a 5-10 point deduction...and the robot is 8 feet away from the base...It sometimes makes sense to take a 5-10 point deduction in order to give themselves extra time to attempt a 40 point mission. They're strategizing.
   
   As for this year's missions, I personally liked them. After a while you sort of "grow" to like them. I guess I have liked all the different year's missions and find each of them unique. Geez, I can say that about the project and the kid's robot too, especially after they named him "Bob". I'm weak I guess!
   
   I do think a mix of easy and hard missions crucial to the continued success of FLL. I just love watching all the different methods the teams use to "attack" the missions, whether it's the rookies or the experienced. All very clever indeed.



2. Message by:0222520A 12/13/2007 22:22:18 GMT
   Past missions had field models that threw off odometry. One had a field of loose parts (snow), another had a tilted surface (volcano). Next year's challenge should have something more like that. I also like when there are challenges that involve gates or the robot climbing on/over something.



1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/14/2007 04:49:41 GMT
   Other challenges had mission models that blocked several other missions, making "point and shoot" impossible.
   
   I was wondering if anyone can think of a mission that "strongly leans toward" (as opposed to "requires") a touch sensor using the NXT. We used frequently used touch sensors to navigate (to detect walls & mission models), limit the extension/rotation of an arm, and provide program branching for multiple programs in a slot. However, we used the RCX, and I could see these functions becoming obsolete given the precision of the NXT.
   
   At some point, I would like to gather some of these ideas and post them in the feedback folder where Scott is more likely to see them.
   
   Yolande



1. Message by: LabRats887 12/16/2007 02:25:20 GMT
   This answer was originally posted as part of another discussion, but it I would love to see these ideas incorporated.
   On missions requiring a sensor how about these ideas:
   1) Create a mission that would have to be done last (like the stair climbing in "No Limits" or the crater in "Mission Mars).
   #1 Have a circle on the table outlined in a darker color and have something in it that needs to be removed from the circle (burning trees in a forest fire if it's Climate Change?). To get full points the robot must push/knock whatever is in the circle out while not leaving the circle itself. This isn't a new idea - it's a redo of the pop can challenge.
   #2 Have a flat circle of a dark color that can be placed anywhere on the table and have the robot have to make a delivery to the circle. This would definitely be a variable challenge.
   #3 Have a "maze" to negotiate through - either drawn on the table (probably would be rough for the refs), or a post maze or wall maze. That would require tougher programming - either a wall follower routine, or a bump and turn program. It should be a high point one. (Yeah someone could still use odometry, but hey)
   
   I wouldn't agree to do away with all of the out and back missions. For young teams it is important to remember that they need some success. We forget sometimes how hard it is that first year for them to accomplish those "simple" missions, and how proud they are when they do. Leave a couple simple ones.
   As to risk taking - isn't the point of the table missions to have the kids maximize their score? In that case isn't weighing the risks part of the learning?



1. Message by: tcc-2493 12/17/2007 07:44:30 GMT
   As a rookie coach, I want to remind everyone of the importance of making the process inviting to newcomers. Our rookies (6 girls grades 4 and 5) got 310 points at their (1st round) regional qualifier while tagging the whole way -- all simple out & back missions, but very thorough follow through to make the missions work reliably.
   
   I personally found the solar panel in this challenge to be a very difficult mission, and I don't recall seeing anyone at our qualifier pull it off. (We had only one team get 350 or higher out of 56 competitors). But I agree, it would be good to have some points (the last 50?) awarded for sophisticated algorithms or sensor use, rather than accurate pointing or clever bundling of pieces. It seemed like the difference between the 300 pt teams and the 350 pts teams was in the stacking (to save time), and I'm not sure that this should be what determines the regional winner.
   
   Joel West
   Co-Coach, TCC #2493



1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/17/2007 08:28:15 GMT
   While helping rookies to feel successful is important, it's also important to have the full range of challenges (easy, medium, hard). When there is too much clustering of scores at the top, it's harder to distinguish between excellent designs and "pretty good" ones. Ranking the winners becomes more dependent on nervous fingers than on creativity and robustness.
   
   As long as there is some general understanding what a "reasonable" score is, rookies don't necessarily have to be too disappointed if they can't accomplish all or most of the tasks. At our first tournament, our first round score was 109, for second place, and we were satisfied, not disappointed. The highest 2 scores of the day were 214 and 156, so any score above 100 was considered "respectable". At the State Championship that year, the high score of the day was 324 (attending were the 64 top teams selected from 300 teams), so any team above 300 was exceptional.
   
   One thing I liked about that year was that several missions had "partial credit." Load a ball into a launcher and bump it for full credit, bump the empty launcher for part. Connect 1 or 2 modules in a straight line for partial credit, or in an L-shape for full credit. That way, less advanced teams could "do" the easier part of the mission and feel they'd "accomplished" it while the more experienced teams could stretch themselves for the harder part.
   
   My concern with this year's abundance of high scores is that teams may feel discouraged in future years if the scores aren't as high, because they would be posting lower scores while at the same time, having better designs and strategies.
   
   Yolande



11. Message by: hoffman1702 12/17/2007 16:40:02 GMT
    This is all very interesting for a first time coach. I thought that the challenges were relatively simple, yet the challenge was in trying to do so many in such a short time--completely and without the penalties.
    
    I thought partial credit would have been appropriate for a number of the challenges--uranium and corn among them...
    
    The Missouri tournament had 38 teams participating (there was supposed to be 40 at the limit), and the two top teams tied at 290 points. I did not see their runs, so I can't say how sophisticated the thinking was. However...my rookie team had a first run of 275, leaving us the third spot. We were VERY surprised, and pleased of course, bu that gives you some idea of the level of sophistication involved.
    
    For us, the ultimate challenge was being able to collect the power plant fuel and deliver it--and not get penalties for the oil barrels--within the time limit.
    
    Cynthia



12. Message by: CGMSC745 12/18/2007 19:36:45 GMT
    I posted this in another thread and will duplicate here since it is hard to keep up with all of them.
    
    One easy way to increase the technical challenge, without hurting rookie teams too much, or increasing the complexity (and cost) of the table parts, might be to limit/penalize the robot for every return to base.
    
    Perhaps something like 1-point penalty for the first return, 2 for the second, 3 for the third etc.
    
    If a team can do all the challenges with just one or two returns to base the penalty would be only 1 or 3 points.
    
    If a team has ten returns to base (which it seams like a fair number of the high scoring teams this year had) then the penalty would be 9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1=45 points.
    
    Rookie teams can still get good scores since the worst-case return penalty is roughly what a single mission is worth.
    
    Advanced teams are now forced to actually navigate on the mat, use the sensors, get feedback from the field pieces, walls and lines, in order to get as many of the challenges done without returning to base. Robot complexity will go up, the use of sensors will go up, the complexity of the programming will go up (no "2 move block" programs which were so prevalent this year), even the design of jigs will go up since jigs will have to do more than one challenge.
    
    With a "return penalty" the only way to get a perfect score will be to do a "grand tour"; all missions done with a single exit from base. That'll get the perfect score back to where it should be, i.e., nearly impossible.



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/18/2007 23:03:43 GMT
   This is one of the best ideas I came across this year!
   I really think you have to forward this concept to Scott Evans & FIRST!
   I'm sure that a big crowd will be supporting this idea, because this way you achieve two things. There is no direct need to make the missions too complicated for rookie teams, and veteran teams can work on sophisticated programming and robot design.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



13. Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 12/19/2007 17:10:17 GMT
    I agree. Penalizing returns does a lot of what I think should be done, although I would want an autonomous return and leave to still be "free".
    
    --Jack Gregory



14. Message by: JRE135 01/05/2008 16:50:28 GMT
    Before advancing this idea too far, it wasn't the teams that programmed the return to base, it was required by the missions. "Power Puzzle" with oil, dam, windmills, solar panel, etc. left no alternative but to return to base. Past challenges required less returns. The penalty for touching has the same affect and doesn't discourage the use of removable attachments that are part of the learning, MO.
    
    on



1. Message by: CGMSC745 01/05/2008 18:37:22 GMT
   I agree, this year challenge had more deliverables and retrievables than usuall. None the less, a penalty for touching the robot (out or in base), would still be compatable with multiple deliverables and retrievables. Teams would just have to figure out ways of doing it that don't involve touching the robot.



15. Message by: GMT
    

Discussion: Misson Issues By: Chiron 12/07/2007 21:48:23 GMT
please respond if have same issue:
Some missons are not landing in the same spot as the time/week before (we think it is the robot), it is geting on our nerves.

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/02/2007 23:53:33 GMT
   Join the club. Hundreds of factors combine to prevent complete reliability.
   
   You might want to mention what hardware you are using (RCX/NXT) and what types of issues you are having for a better answer.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/02/2007 23:53:56 GMT
   This is a rather common problem. These threads (and more) have some suggestions. Also, try searching for words like "reliable", "consistent", and "dust".
   
   The Eagles "Rotations are not always accurate" 12/2/07 4:19pm
   
   awesome5188aces "Designing an all-terrain robot" 10/31/07 5:53pm
   
   dhystad "striaght line -- frustration" 10/2/07 2:08am
   
   FlyingGeeks195 "Consistant Runs, Mats at home & at tournament" 12/10/06 7:58pm
   
   Inconsistent robot performance:
   http://www.firstlegoleague.org/scripts/webx.dll?128@@.ee9959d
   
   Yolande



2. Message by: blackattack1146 12/06/2007 18:20:16 GMT
   when we have the two tables side by side will they still be the same width as one table side or two table sides?
   thanks
   -Black Attack-



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/06/2007 19:02:53 GMT
   You will end up with a table that is 8feet by 8feet with the solar satelite in the dead center.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: bears299 12/06/2007 20:26:57 GMT
   There will be a 2x4 board at the "north" edge of each table, so the span for the satellite is approx. 4".
   
   Linda



1. Message by:0222520A 12/07/2007 16:46:03 GMT
   The table at the tournament should be exactly the same size as the one you practiced with at home. All tables are built on a 4' x 8' (hopefully) flat and smooth sheet (plywood or other sheet product). The sides are made out of 2x4's which are actually 1 1/2" x 3 1/2". The dimensions inside the 2x4 walls is 45" x 93".
   
   At tournaments two tables are put together. They are placed so the wall with the satellite touch, and a single satellite model is shared between the two tables. The south (base), east and west sides are left accessible (there is a compass rose on the mat to indicate these directions). If you have a mission where you need to run around to the north side of your table to retrieve the robot you better change it.
   
   Hope that's clear



3. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/07/2007 21:48:23 GMT
   Or, you can warn the ref before the match and ask if they will retrieve the robot for you. Our team had very short arms last year, and they needed the ref to pick up the bot several times. If you ask FIRST, the long-armed refs are usually able to help you. You will be out of luck if you are taller than the ref!

Discussion: Perfect Score Register By: icNRG 2340 05/07/2008 15:52:38 GMT
Just to get an idea of the scoring in this years Power Puzzle.

Please reply in the right sub topic.

1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:40:36 GMT
   The 2000 register. Teams that have scored 5x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
   
   Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic.



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:40:59 GMT
   The 1600 register. Teams that have scored 4x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
   
   Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic.



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:41:19 GMT
   The 1200 register. Teams that have scored 3x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
   
   Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic.



1. Message by: Mindstorms Mayhem #33 12/12/2007 04:14:48 GMT
   In the New Hampshire State Tournament held on 8 December 2007, Mindstorms Mayhem scored 400 points in three of their six table rounds, winning the 1st Place Performance Award in the process. Their sequence of scores were as follows:
   
   
   
   
   • 398 - Qualifying Round #1
   
   
   • 400 - Qualifying Round #2
   
   
   • 400 - Qualifying Round #3
   
   
   • 394 - Quarterfinals
   
   
   • 397 - Semifinals
   
   
   • 400 - Finals
   
   
   
   
   We hope to have video of at least one of the 400-point rounds posted on the team web site by December 21.
   
   The 2nd Place Performance Award Team, the Renewable Energy Hogs, also scored 400 points in one of their table rounds, the Quarterfinals. The Renewable Energy Hogs were the 2nd seed going into the playoff rounds, with all three of their qualifying rounds in the 380s.
   
   The New Hampshire State Tournament featured many high-scoring teams; there were 7 teams with scores over 350 and 12 teams with scores over 300. A separate post by Skye Sweeney provides the full awards list from the NH State Tournament.



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/12/2007 11:51:19 GMT
   Wow, that sure is an accomplishment, congrats!
   There is a lot of experience in the M&M team and that is showing in these scores.



3. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:41:38 GMT
   The 800 register. Teams that have scored 2x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
   
   Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic.



1. Message by: robotmasters53 01/15/2008 03:31:25 GMT
   Well, our competition allowed only 3 rounds. Team 53 Robot Masters got 2 perfect runs. Their first run, they had trouble pulling the red truck in all the way and resulted in 345. Kids figured it was the new tire/mat in combination with low battery. Anyway, here is the video link of the 3rd run. Fastforward for about a minute.
   
   http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZFMFzeO_Uxg



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 01/15/2008 18:05:25 GMT
   Hi California,
   
   Very good building and programming I see on the video!
   
   But, when looking carefully I saw a problem. The sattelite robot (the pullback/windup) is released to early. The Robot has not left Base completely, so it is in conflict with rule 20:
   
   20. Transition Mode. A freshly started robot is in transition mode until it*s out of Base. In transition mode, the robot is not allowed to do anything but leave Base, taking along any objects it was already in contact with. It is not allowed to lose or gain contact with anything at all until it is in autonomy mode (out of Base). Touching the robot in transition mode forces it into preparation mode, and you maintain control of any objects involved.
   
   I only write this out of a positive angle, because if you change the programming just a little you have an amazing combination of robot building and programming, my compliments.
   
   My advice to your team would be, fix it because when seen by a referee you loose these points...
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: tanrobotics 01/15/2008 18:24:48 GMT
   Hi!
   
   Congratulations and great job.
   
   However, (while we are in the aspects of constructive criticisms), you might want to take a look at Q&A 80. I notice that the Solar Panel is supported by your frame. Q&A 80 states that you might not get the points for it depending upon the referee's decision at the match.
   
   Paul Tan.



1. Message by: robotmasters53 01/15/2008 20:34:28 GMT
   Thanks for great feedback. We also had similar concerns. Our robot doesn't turn right (which is our release move) until it is completely out of base. Our wind-up is shorter than the robot so it is also out of base. We also maintain contact between the two with a flexible axle which probably is not obvious from the video. The flexible axle also pushes the wind up forward so that it is also out of base when our robot is ready to turn. Two solid axels keep the wind-up from shooting out while the robot is in transit mode. We'll re-inspect and make sure the early release doesn't happen.
   
   As for QA80, if we remove our frame, the solar panel will catch the edge of the roof. The frame is also not touching the floor (I'm not sure if it matters). The solar panel can slide out of our frame to comply with the no bundling rule.
   
   Thanks
   
   Kee Sup Kim, Coach
   Team 53 Robot Masters



2. Message by:0222520A 01/16/2008 00:53:06 GMT
   I don't see any conflict with Q&A 80. The roof of the house is obviously supporting the weight of the panel, and quite a bit more weight as well.



4. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:41:59 GMT
   The 400 register. Teams that have scored 1x a perfect score of 400 points in a tournament can become member of this club. (3 rounds, semi & final)
   
   Does your team belong in this club? Do you know a team that is eligible for membership. Post team name & number, city , state and country in this topic.



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/04/2007 13:44:42 GMT
   Team: icNRG - I see ENERGY !
   Teamnr: 2340
   City: Eindhoven
   State: n/a
   Country: the Netherlands



1. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/06/2007 04:00:54 GMT
   Congratulations! Do you have a video?
   
   Diane



2. Message by: lightsavers2634 01/21/2008 01:38:06 GMT
   Finally had our state tournament!
   
   Team: Light savers
   Teamnr: 2634
   City: Le Mars (ice cream capital of the world)
   State: Iowa
   Country: United states
   
   It was enough for the Robot Performance award, and we ended up getting the Champion's award as well. (Iowa won't be sending us to Antlanta due to a lack of slots.)
   
   -David (the kid)



2. Message by: tanrobotics 12/09/2007 15:57:13 GMT
   Team: SCS Penguins
   Teamnumber: 543
   City: Toronto
   State/Province: Ontario
   Country: Canada
   
   400 Run on the FINAL round, just beating out the opposing team (who did a really great job scoring 395).
   
   Our team NEVER scored a 400, even in practice. They just had to choose the very last round of the State/Provincial Championships to rise up to the occassion! I guess the team really wanted to go back to Atlanta this year!
   
   The SCS Penguins from St. Clement's School are looking forward to meeting everyone in Atlanta again!
   
   Paul Tan.



3. Message by: legoaces44 01/16/2008 05:32:51 GMT
   The Lego Aces are very proud of scoring a perfect 400 at the Ohio State Championship event! But the other teams at the competition were so good that a perfect score was only good enough for 3rd place in robot performance, just out of the trophy placings. There were two other teams at the event with perfect scores and better 2nd scores.
   (Cougars 400-400-400 and Energizer Monkeys 400-399-399) Maybe we'll get some interesting challenges next year to separate the pack and provide a range of creative challenges that inspire new designs and programming. It would be great to see some missions that require tricky maneuvering or creative use of sensors instead of the endless list of retreivables/deliverables. that could all be done with simple odometry. Our team scored 400 without the need for sensors.
   
   Enjoy,
   
   Thomas Miller
   coach of the Lego Aces



5. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/05/2007 03:28:19 GMT
   Many tournaments only have 3 rounds; they do not have a playoff.
   
   - Gary



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/05/2007 10:45:27 GMT
   Gary,
   
   right that means they only can enter the 1200/800/400 registers. BUT for the 1200 register it would be nice if they state that it is actually 3 out of 3 so 100% score!
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



6. Message by: 12/15/2007 13:21:04 GMT
   Deleted



7. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/16/2007 14:17:55 GMT
   At least two teams scored perfect rounds at the Flint Michigan State Tournament on 12/15. If I get a complete listing of results I'll add the team numbers so they can be recognized. One team that did it was 334 Power Peeps - with 10-15 seconds to spare at the end of the round!
   
   - Gary



8. Message by: CGMSC745 12/18/2007 00:41:52 GMT
   I believe two teams both had three perfect runs (all the rounds that the tournament runs) at the Indiana state tournament. So they tied for robot performance with total run scores of 1200.



9. Message by: frostphantoms 12/19/2007 08:12:24 GMT
   Guess we are in the Missed-it-club. We were hoping for a 400 at a tournament but were very happy with a 390 at the Novi, Michigan Championship Tournament on December 8th. We ended up in 3rd for robot performance with the other teams scoring 399 and 400. We were runner-up for the Champion's Award and nominated for Robot Design and Programming awards. All are records for our school. A great note to retire on after 5 years as FLL coaches.
   
   Here is the video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLUWU6s4LBo It is a cell phone video so it is a little dark here. Our son is the one running the robot. He is still so excited over the tournament results that he can't stop building compulsively! He already has a new bot built for next year-hee hee. Guess he missed the part that mom and dad are retiring after this 8th grade year and plans to go 1 more year without us while he is still "legal".
   
   Way to go Flint teams with perfect scores! Love Bill's tournaments! Note: He is officiating in our video :o)
   
   -Kathy & Greg, Coaches, Frost Phantoms team # 111



10. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/20/2007 16:49:04 GMT
    We too are in the Missed-it-club, and like you, Kathy and Greg, we got a 390 at the Flint, MI Championship Tournament on Dec. 15th. With that score we were tied for sixth for Robot Performance(stiff competition!) and ended up 2nd overall. We do our Robot all in one run. To watch our 400 run in practice go to http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4765357511095837007
    
    
    Congrats for being coaches for 5 years. You sure you don't want to go one more year :)
    
    Congrats to all the teams who made the perfect score.
    
    Diane for Brothers Keepers #2710



11. Message by: frostphantoms 12/20/2007 17:22:53 GMT
    Hi Diane,
    I will have to show my son your video. I recognize the name of your team. I keep looking for the Flint results but have not seen them posted yet.
    
    Right now the one more year is ....NO WAY! LOL! In the mean time son is still building and programming like a mad man. Who knows maybe we will see you next year or will the big bots be in our future??
    Kathy



12. Message by: CGMSC745 12/21/2007 19:39:31 GMT
    To follow up on my earlier post about the Indiana State tournament.
    
    The tournament is a three rounder. Two teams scored perfect 400's for all three of their competition runs at the tournament.
    
    Team #654
    Central Space Lab One, Burlington IN, Head Coach Jim McCarter
    Team #598
    ZBots, Fort Wayne, Head Coaches Greg & Kitty Bellis
    
    Amazing job by both teams.
    
    I believe there were a couple other 400's at the tournament as well.



1. Message by: lightsavers2634 12/23/2007 04:22:03 GMT
   Do you know if Centeral Space Lab One ever switched to the NXT, or even changed their famous RCX design? (I was originally a hoosier, but then moved to Iowa.)
   
   -David (the kid)



1. Message by: CGMSC745 12/23/2007 19:19:04 GMT
   Central Space Lab had two teams this year. At the qualifying tournament one team used an RCX and the other an NXT. It looked to me like the RCX 'bot was the similar to past designs.
   
   Both robots were certainly capable of perfect scores but I'm not sure which robot 'one' used. The 'two' team had one perfrect score at the state tournament.



13. Message by: The New England Robotics Designers #1 12/22/2007 07:11:48 GMT
    Name: The New England Robotics Designers
    Number: 1
    Hometown: Windham, New Hampshire
    Country: USA
    Scores: 5 - 400s at their local tournament on November 10th.



1. Message by: lightsavers2634 12/23/2007 04:14:00 GMT
   Wow.... I am really amazed. I'm starting to wonder if there will be a 5 way tie on first place for robot performance at Atlanta...
   
   Great Job!
   
   -David (the kid)



1. Message by: bears299 12/23/2007 06:49:51 GMT
   If there is a tie in Atlanta, do they give multiple awards for first, and none for second, third, and fourth?
   
   Linda



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/24/2007 11:14:25 GMT
   Wow. great job!
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



14. Message by: 598zbots 12/24/2007 03:13:20 GMT
    Central Space Lab One used a RCX to score 3 perfect rounds.
    
    Central Space Lab Two used a NXT and had 1 perfect round
    
    ZBOTs used a NXT for there 3 perfect rounds.
    
    Both Central Space Lab One and ZBOTs had to repeat one task in the last round. I believe Central Space Lab One had to re try the truck grab and ZBOTs left a single oil barrel on the platform and went back to get it.
    
    I wish to congratulate Central Space Lab as the day wore on Jim and I chatted about the event and how each team was doing. He is a great couch and does a wonderful job working with both teams. It was a very friendly event and as the day progressed we wished each other well and joked about what would happen if we both did the 3 perfect rounds.
    
    In the true spirit of FLL both Central Space Lab one and ZBOTs celebrated the tie on the stage together.



15. Message by: trooprobo1094 01/31/2008 20:27:46 GMT
    Wow, all the videos are very very impressive, especially the one from Brothers Keepers #2710 with only ONE run to finish all. These repositioning moves are awesome!
    
    We are a rookie team of 4 girl scouts ages from 9 to 11. We had 380 in the tournament (400 in practice) and were placed 2nd in robot performance and 2nd in champion's award. Our girls once have had a vision of finish all in one run but couldn't do that due to their inexperience. I definitely will show them all your wonderful videos.
    
    Thanks to FLL for inspiring young boys and girls in the areas of engineering and science. Some of my very crafty girls have considered their future directions in science, engineering, or robotics. That's what we want to see beside the perfect score!
    
    Congratulate to all the teams once achieved perfect score, and all the teams score 400 in the tournaments.
    
    Marina - Troop ROBO 1094
    in "Sunshine" California



16. Message by: robotmasters53 05/04/2008 09:47:18 GMT
    In case 400 isn't just enough, check out the video by Robot Masters and icNRG, working together half way across the world & finally demonstrating how to get legally 660 points at the Asian Open Championship.
    
    Please excuse a bit of poetic license but he it was all for fun.
    
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hou0G5m2MaM



17. Message by:0222520A 05/07/2008 15:52:38 GMT
    At the HTK Open 400's were more the norm than the exception. Next year's challenge has got to be more difficult.
    
    The alliance mission was fun. Four team alliances had all four robots on the table (two tables) at the same time. The robots had to work cooperatively on the single table and "across-the-wall" with alliance partners on the other table to get maximum points.

Discussion: Using meeting time efficiently? By: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/10/2007 14:17:24 GMT
Hi all :)
Hope everyone is having/has had a great season.

I am interested in getting other coaches feedback as I start to plan for next season. Could you tell me how you efficiently use the meeting time in the following situations?

MEETING SCHEDULES:
* What is your meeting schedule like for the season (how long each day, which day(s) of the week and for how many weeks)?
* Do your schedules change as the tournament gets closer?
* Are you able to accomplish a majority of your goals in this time frame?
* Do you have a schedule for major milestones at the start of the season?
* During which week/month do you accomplish major milestones (eg finish mission 1, complete skit, etc.)?
* What percentage of each meeting do you work on the robot, research and teamwork?
* How do you keep the meetings fun and not turn them into a sweatshop while still accomplishing goals?

RESEARCH
* I send homework home with the kids now for the research but how do you allocate time for defining the problems/solutions you want to cover in the skit, skit writing, prop creation and skit practice?
* Which things are take home and which ones are in meeting items?

SKIT WRITING
* How do you brainstorm skit ideas?
* How do you lead the discussions for skit writing?
* Is it done in meeting and how long does it take your team?

PRESENTATION PRACTICE
* How much time do you spend with your kids practicing for the presentations?
* Is the presentation practice part of your normal schedule or extra meetings planned last minute?
* What things do you do/ask to prepare them for the presentations?

ADDITIONAL ITEMS
* I see teams with great pit displays, signs and handouts. Do you do these things in meeting or do you assign different things to different kids to do at home?

WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION
* Do you make any specials document you keep hung on the wall or handout to the kids so they have something to refer to?
* Do the kids seem to learn better when things are in a graphical format for them to assocate concepts with?

ALL DAY MEETING BI-WEEKLY
* Does anyone hold a meeting every other weekend for a majority of the day?
* Does it work?
* How many hours per day?
* How would you schedule the day so the kids don't get too overwhelmed and stay on task?
* Comments or thoughts?

whew Thanks in advance for the help and just for reading all these questions! Carla ;)

Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team

1. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/05/2007 19:20:55 GMT
   I hope you get a lot of good answers Carla, because I could really use the help. Our meetings were a disaster. It was really really hard to get them focussed this year, and some good kids from last year were the worst. Next year I am making good on my good intentions, and NOT having 10 kids on the team.



1. Message by: tanrobotics 12/05/2007 19:55:43 GMT
   Here are some answers for our two teams (St. Clement's School). We came across this formula after several years of trial and error.
   
   MEETING SCHEDULES:
   
   We start our season in Januaray. We meet once a week on fridays for 2 hours until June. In September, we meet on Mondays and Fridays for 2 hours until the week before the first competition. We then schedule additional practices during the week or weekends. This varies from year to year depending upon the kids' exam schedules and tournament dates.
   
   Major Milestones:
   During the Jan-June season, we teach Lego building and Programming. In May, we hold a competition amongst the kids for the best driving base robot (including sensors). We pick a winner and use that robot for the fall season.
   
   In the fall, we focus on the challenge and the project concurrently. We usually have all our missions completed one to two weeks before the first competition, and we spend that one to two week in a "design freeze" mode, where we just practice the runs to get the time under 2.5 minutes. Also, we focus on finishing off the research project and presentation at that time.
   
   Each meeting during the fall, we have everyone build a mission of their choice. They are also responsible for the research as "homework". When the kids finish a mission, they can either do another mission, or work on the research project. We have a few kids then spend the rest of the time working on combining and optimizing the missions.
   
   How do we keep it fun? We use food as a reward after they have completed their tasks for the day :). Some days are better than others ;)
   
   RESEARCH
   
   Research is assigned as homework with periodic checks to make sure the kids are on track. We arrange for any field trips as needed.
   
   SKIT WRITING
   
   Skit writing is student led. We have had some fairly talented kids, so we just let them go wild with the skit.
   
   PRESENTATION PRACTICE
   
   We practice the presentation the week before our first tournament, while some key kids do the runs.
   
   ADDITIONAL ITEMS
   
   These are completed on the week before the tournament.
   
   WRITTEN DOCUMENTATION
   
   These are completed the week before the first tournament. I get the kids to write comments on their programs if they haven't already.
   
   ALL DAY MEETING BI-WEEKLY
   
   Weekend meetings work better as the kids are refreshed. However, our kids have such a busy schedule, we find it impossible to hold them. I used to hold them the first year I did FLL (2000 - Volcano Panic). It worked great then. We used to meet once a week all Saturday from 1pm to 5pm. The secret was not to go beyond 90 minutes before taking a break.
   
   COMMENTS:
   
   Well, this seems to have worked, as we have been able to consistently get to the Provincial/State Tournaments for the past 3 years now. In fact we were able to head to Atlanta 2 years ago (Ocean Odessey).
   
   I hope this helps.



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/05/2007 23:08:29 GMT
   Thank you very much, it does help. Can I ask you a couple questions?
   
   1.) You said you hold a competition after you spring teaching to see who could build the best body and that was the one you use. What criteria are you using for determining who has the best body?
   
   2.) Also your students led the skit writing. What I ran into was the kids didn't always have all the solutions they brainstormed or they assumed the judges would know about creating hydrogen so they didn't give any background. Another things was the skit didn't transition well from topic to topic or was simply hard to understand. How did you make sure the skit flowed smoothly, it contained understandable information and that each of the kids had a say in it?
   
   Thanks again, Carla ;)
   
   Coach
   Blue Cheesy Flamingos
   MI FLL Team



1. Message by: tanrobotics 12/06/2007 00:03:32 GMT
   1) We hold a competition on a predetermined obstacle course (Just a few large blocks - about 10 inches on each side) that the robot has to navigate through just using touch sensors, light sensors, wall bumping, etc. We see which robot can go through the course fastest -- Actually, I first give them a simple block in the middle that they have to circumnavigate around back to the starting point, and that usually already weeds out a lot of the other robots due to consistency issues (i.e. the ones that didn't use any sensors).
   
   2) We review their scripts as they progress, so we can usually point out that they had forgotten to incorporate a subject that they spent hours researching :). As far as transitioning goes, before they progress into the full script writing they have to tell us the main theme behind the script (i.e. game show, news report, or other...). Usually they are tossed up between two or three different ideas anyways, and we just tell them that they will have an easier time with idea A instead of idea B because ...
   
   I find that if we don't set the kids up to fail, i.e. make sure that the complexity of the task is within their grasp, they are more than capable of completing the task.
   
   This is also one of the reasons I REFUSE to use RoboLab with the kids. I didn't use it when we were using the RCX, and we are not using it with the NXT's. Despite Skye's preference for it, I find that it just adds one more layer of complexity that our kids did not need to have to deal with. (yes, I am a software engineer as well, and a Microsoft Certified Trainer, so it is not because I am scared of code, but rather, because I think there are other ways to do code than just writing text... anyways, enough about my personal rant).
   
   Anyways, back to the specific question about the project: We usually have one team (we are coaching two teams) perform their skit/play/game show/news report to the other team. The other team will usually come back with some questions which we use to guide the kids to improve their skit. As far as making sure each kid has a say in it - in the begining of the year, in January, I give them a talk about how the Director's/Champions' award is based upon 25% teamwork / 25% project / 25% technical / 25% performance. That usually lets them understand that they have to work together, even with the more difficult people in their group.
   
   Paul Tan.



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/06/2007 03:30:05 GMT
   Paul
   Thank you so much for the feedback, I know we are on the right track now. We used the same approach but I think the key for the skit would be more than one iteration of the revisions. We only did one and ran into problems.
   
   You are not the only one that thinks robolab is an acquired taste. ;) I taught with the mindstorms software for two years, then robolab for a year and now nxt-g for two years. I am an applications engineer and I teach the kids object oriented programming. I find the kids learn the programming much faster with a simplistic interface. Carla ;)



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/06/2007 04:41:08 GMT
   Wednesday December 5, 2007 "Official Gang up on Skye Day"
   
   
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/06/2007 15:24:05 GMT
   So does this mean I can mark December 5 on the calendar for next year? Carla ;)



2. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/07/2007 21:51:14 GMT
   That's easy to remember! It's my birthday!



3. Message by: TechHEds410 12/10/2007 01:35:10 GMT
   I don't agree with the gang ;-)
   
   We used RIS our first season - but we gave up on the interface and taught the kids to modify the text files. How do you do that? Very carefully! ;-)
   
   RIS was *so* frustrating that we moved to RoboLab in season 2 and are using it again this year. We are really sad - all of us jumped around with joy when we got v2.9.3 and realised we could have named variables. We'd like to be able to put subroutines into a library that we'd then include in every program but we can manage without (using templates). We also wish they were parameterised procedures, but we can simulate that.
   
   Our best programming thing this year was when we wanted to make the (RCX) robot to move back a certain number of rotations. We Waited Until 30, which was too many. We Waited Until 25 - and the robot did not go back at all. We narrowed it down to when we zero the sensor and then do the Wait Until, the length of time it takes to achieve that, the sensor has already passed the marker (or something... I'd love to see the code inside the RCX - it feels really inefficient - I thought chips were good at arithmetic).
   
   We programmed round it (the day before the tournament) by relacing the Wait Until with our own loop to compare the sensor with a variable. That allowed us to see the robot move when setting the rotations variable to as small as 5. So our code is more efficient than the in-built block???
   
   Now, we need to build that into a subroutine and see what happens if we use it everywhere, in place of the built-in blocks.
   
   Skye, can you award us extra points for the start of every comp if we also do this with NXT? (I remember you said last season that teams using NXT with RoboLab should get extra credit.) We're going to try using NXT for the UK final and the programmers want to stick with RoboLab rather than changing to NXT-G (dealing with new hardware will be bad enough, we might as well stick with the software we know).



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 04:14:22 GMT
   I don't remember saying that teams using Robolab with NXT should get extra credit. I think I may have said that teams using a hybrid solution (NXT brain, Robolab, RCX light and touch sensors, NXT motors) were likely to have a significant advantage.
   
   By the way, if you punch down into the 'wait for' Robolab subvi's and look at the implementation, you will find this rather nasty 2/100 second delay. Just write your own Waits without the delay and your good to go.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: TechHEds410 12/10/2007 11:51:59 GMT
   Sorry, what you actually said was (fll-freak "Observations from a tech judge" 11/21/06 9:10pm):
   >What I did not see were NXT teams using Robolab. That would
   >have been a thrill to see and I hope to see that at State.
   >Properly used and explained by a team, that might be an
   >unstopable combination.
   
   Thanks for the pointer to the subvi's - we haven't looked at those yet (it's hard enough getting our own code working!). I think a good task would be to look into all the ones we're using and see what else we can do to improve them. (But I still can't believe how badly they perform - why would you build in a delay? and why does it take so long to perform simple arithmetic?)



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 14:17:24 GMT
   I believe the delay was added to allow for a more responsive multi-threaded program. If one program has a slight delay, it does allow the other tasks to sneak in and execute. With no delay, other threads can be starved (if the os is preemptive and not scheduled).
   
   As for speed, don't forget that the code that runs on the RCX is not native assembler but rather an interpreted language. Each instruction is not performed in 1 to 5 assembly instructions but rather by an interpreter that might need 100+ instructions. Runs slower but makes a Robolab style simple 'compiler' much simpler and faster.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: crazycreators252 12/06/2007 04:59:36 GMT
   I thought FLL was an 8 week thing. You couldn't start anything till the season kickoff. Did I misunderstand this?
   Dave



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/06/2007 05:23:14 GMT
   Yes and no. The mission descriptions and the research project are provided to all teams at the same day in middle September to insure fairness. But there is nothing that prevents a teams from building robots and programing them year round.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/05/2007 22:55:23 GMT
   I understand. Having 4-6 kids is the best number. I had 14 last year (10 varsity and 4 in training) and I almost lost my mind. Now this year I have 4 kids and it was a lot less stressful on me. ;)



3. Message by: darthpanthers2465 12/06/2007 15:20:39 GMT
   This past year our team held "Spring Training." We're from Florida so it coincides just nicely. During Spring Training our kids work on realted topics. For example this past year, our kids guessed that the Power Puzzle challenge was going to involve energy, specifically alternative energy based on clue posted to website. Each kid then selected a particular energy source (oil, solar, wind, etc), conducted research and then presented the info to the rest of the team through creative powerpoints. In fact it became a mini-competition as to could make the fanciest (most bells and whistles) presentation.
   
   Spring is also the time to show off our robot and missions so we can help grow robotics in our area. We were extremely successful last year and welcomed 8 new teams to our school system. We have already received commitment from School District officials that robotics will be in every Middle school next year, so were expecting more rookies next year.
   
   That has been We also use the spring to deepen teamwork through group activities (lazer tag, swimming, etc). Since our kids go to different schools, they don't get to see each other much outside of FLL. Once the challenge is announced, we meet weekely on saturday from 10-2. We have some who don't make every meeting, but our boys have chosen FLL robotics over sports. Our practices always include lunch and breaks. We take side trips and meetings seperately with whoever can make it.(not always with entire team).
   
   Summer - we take off. Its too hot here and most people leave on vacation. If we do meet, it will be for a party. Plus when we get back together in fall, thers'e good stories to tell.
   
   Rich Berglund
   Coach, Darth Panthers 2.10
   Tournament Director, Power Puzzle Quest



4. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/07/2007 08:15:48 GMT
   You would never guess that our one and only tournament of the season is 2 weeks away. Today, we had a 2.5-hour meeting, 7 kids, first time everyone was there, due to the end of the sports season. Tasks accomplished: 2 lines of programming code, one beam moved back an inch, and shuttling the robot, parts, and field pieces from my car to the classroom and back again.
   
   The only redeeming factor is that 5 days ago, I had 2 kids at my house for 2.5 hours. Tasks accomplished: complete installation of a two-stage (dual reduction) quadruple gear (total of 16 gears) 4-bar lift mechanism driven by 2 motors. Troubleshooting included readjustment and anchoring of motors and axles, friction reduction with spacers and collars.
   
   I should have remembered that when I coached FLL, we had 2 meetings a week: one full-team meeting, and one meeting with only half the team (2 or 3 members, alternating every other week). Most of the work got done with only 2-3 members -- bigger meetings were for strategizing and socializing.
   
   Yolande
   
   P.S. After nearly 3 months of work, the robot can finally score! (How many points is another issue for another day...)

Discussion: Tournament Results By: FLL-Freak 12/12/2007 11:38:08 GMT
Use this area to post tournament results and press releases.

-Skye

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 18:45:05 GMT
   NASHUA * The Inventioneers, Team 1976, a neighborhood team from Londonderry, earned the Champion*s Award at the sixth annual New Hampshire FIRST LEGO* League Tournament held Saturday, Dec. 8, at Nashua High School North.
   
   FIRST LEGO League * For Innovation and Recognition of Science and Technology * seeks to encourage an interest in science, math, and technology among students, ages 9-14, in a compressed, fast-paced program.
   
   The Inventioneers were among 52 New Hampshire elementary, middle school, and home-schooled teams who researched, designed, and demonstrated a robotic solution to this years* challenge, Power Puzzle. Power Puzzle asked students to audit energy use and recommend solutions to today*s energy needs.
   
   The nine-member Londonderry team audited Londonderry*s Central Fire Station for energy efficiencies and met with an architect on the station*s new building to discuss use of thin film integrated solar panels in the design.
   
   The Inventioneers win makes the team eligible to participate in international competition next April in Atlanta.
   
   Runner up for the Champion*s Award was Team 528, the Flying Geeks Gold from Nashua Christian Academy in Nashua.
   
   Technical Performance Awards (highest overall score based on the robot's performance in the timed rounds) went to:
   
   First Place: Team 33, Mindstorm*s Mayhem, a Milford Area Youth Homeschoolers Enriching Minds (MAYHEM) team.
   
   Second Place: Team 20, Renewable Energy Hogs, a neighborhood team.
   
   Third Place: Team 2178, the Computer chips, from St. Thomas Aquinas School in Derry.
   
   Fourth Place: Team 3493, Lego Lightning Lords, a neighborhood team from Brentwood.
   
   Technical Robot Design Awards (best incorporation of team design and programming) went to:
   
   First Place: Team 293, And the Cat, from Madbury.
   
   Second Place: Team 33, Mindstorm*s Mayhem a Milford Area Youth Homeschoolers Enriching Minds (MAYHEM) team.
   
   Third Place: Team 5298, Watt*s Up, Doc?, Amherst Middle School.
   
   Team Project Presentation Awards (best proposal concept, documentation and oral presentation) went to:
   
   First Place: Team 123, G.P.R.T. (Girls Precision Robotics Team), a Manchester neighborhood team.
   
   Second Place: Team 20, Renewable Energy Hogs, a neighborhood team.
   
   -continued



1. Message by: 12/10/2007 18:46:33 GMT
   Deleted



2. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 18:48:05 GMT
   Third Place: Team 1915, Space Cowboys, from Nashua Catholic Regional Junior High School.
   
   Teamwork Awards (team whose members best demonstrate enthusiasm and spirit, partnering among themselves and among the teams, and problem solving skills) went to:
   
   First Place: Team 155, Oh My, from Elm Street Middle School in Nashua.
   
   Second Place: Team 590, New Boston RoboSox, from The Derryfield School, New Boston Central School, Mountain View Middle School.
   
   Third Place: Team 637, Mach 6, from Manchester Church of Christ, Londonderry, Manchester, Milford, and Merrimack.
   
   Special Judges* Awards (recognize particularly innovative strategies and performance) went to:
   
   The Judges* Rookie All Star Team Award went to Team 2912, Team FUUSEion, from the First Unitarian Universalist Society of Exeter.
   
   The Judges* Mentorship Award went to Team 3077, Chicnology, from James Mastricola Upper Elementary, Merrimack Middle School, Nashua Catholic from Merrimack and Nashua.
   
   The Judges* Community Outreach Award went to Team 3554, Lebanon Lightning Legos, from Lebanon.
   
   The Judges* Jedi Hardware Award went to Team 3521, Lebanon LeafHoppers, from Hanover Street School in Lebanon.
   
   The Adult Mentor Award went to Frank Merrick, a coach on Team 2912. The Young Adult Mentor Award was given to Justin Benham on Team 3024. Outstanding Volunteer Award went to Dave and Nancy Kelso with the Manchester Central FIRST Robotics, Team 131.
   
   The Team Spirit Award went to Team 155, Oh My.
   
   -continued



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/10/2007 18:49:47 GMT
   Twelve weeks ago, students began building and testing a robot that would best execute a number of maneuvers on a tabletop field. At the day-long tournament, teams played against each other in 2 1/2-minute rounds on an 8-foot by 4-foot tabletop playing field. The robots were tasked to complete up to twelve missions that emphasize different types of energy use, such as hydro dam, wind, solar, wave turbine, coal, corn, oil, and tree planting. All teams evaluated the energy use of a building in their town and propose solutions to reduce consumption or move toward an alternative energy use. Points were awarded for each completed mission.
   
   The nine-year-old program today has nearly 9,000 teams from throughout the United States and 32 other countries. Like its parent organization, FIRST, the LEGO League gives students a real world challenge, asks them to provide a solution through hands-on experimentation, and then demonstrate the capabilities of their robotic design.
   
   New Hampshire tournament hosts included high school FIRST teams from Hollis Brookline, Bishop Guertin, Nashua, Manchester Central, the University of New Hampshire, Merrimack, Bishop Brady, Alvirne, Daniel Webster College, Team Phoenix, and Nashua High School North. BAE Systems sponsored the event.
   
   For more information on the NH tournament, visit http://www.eis.na.baesystems.com/lego/index.htm.
   
   (Posting edited to remove names of team members)



3. Message by: Chicnology 12/12/2007 11:22:52 GMT
   Congratulations to ALL the teams who participated in the 2007 NH State FLL Tournament.
   
   I especially want to congratulate Chicnology (Team 3077).
   
   Just making it to the NH State Tournament is quite an accomplishment. Finishing 10th place out of 52 "top notch" teams is extraordinary and receiving the "mentorship" award was phenomenal!
   
   We are all very proud of you!
   
   http://youtube.com/watch?v=siruzmV9qU8
   320 points...Not your maximum but very respectable indeed!

Discussion: 2008 Challenge theme By: GranbyRedBlox167 05/11/2008 20:17:58 GMT
Well, since our team is finished for the competition season, I started poking around to see if next years theme is available yet... I couldn't find mention of it on the FIRST websites, but did find a Scandinavia FLL site that states it will be called CLIMATE CONNECTION (couldn't get a good translation on the details). Another website, www.chattanoogaengineersclub.org/lego2007/, states that it will be about weather and climate change.

Merle Yoder
Granby Red Blox
Granby, CT

1. Message by: crazymonkeys 12/10/2007 23:29:59 GMT
   http://www.hjernekraft.org/nyheter/nyhet.tpl?command=search&db=nyheter.txt&s=03122007144253
   
   The time for changes has come, and with it the FIRST LEGO League 2008 Climate Connections Challenge!
   
   Join us when we reseasch why many experts think that the earths climate is changing, and how these changes effect us and our planet.
   
   All the causes and consequences are connected and experts say we need to "think globally and act locally.
   
   We must pull in the same direction if we shall create a global plan. Do the First Lego Teams have what it takes to understand the global climate connections?
   
   As usual we will provide background information when we start. But already you can have a look at the pages for the International Polar Year 2007-2008:
   
   http://www.ipy.no/seksjoner/english
   ___________________________________________________________
   Robert Ingebrigtsen
   From the Gateway to the Arctic
   http://www.destinasjontromso.no/english/index.html



1. Message by: GranbyRedBlox167 12/11/2007 01:42:36 GMT
   The theme with description has now been posted at the USFirst.org website:
   
   http://www.usfirst.org/community/fll/content.aspx?id=7586
   
   Merle Yoder
   Granby Red Blox
   Granby, CT



2. Message by: lightsavers2634 12/11/2007 06:15:44 GMT
   Wasn't it just some 25 years ago that Newsweek had an headline concerning a near future ice age? They had "evidence" that the average global tempature was dropping drastically. I wonder why this hasn't happened yet. :)
   
   -David (the kid)



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/11/2007 14:46:41 GMT
   LOL I have to say when I passed along the theme for next year and did get met with some skepticism and some great enthusiasm. Not everyone agrees that the evidence points to the same things.
   
   2008 will be a great year for the kids to put that extra effort into the reference they use. I have a feeling as they share the info with the public they will meet of mix of reactions. Those reference are what people are really going to be looking at. Carla ;)
   
   Coach
   Blue Cheesy Flamingos
   MI FLL Team



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/11/2007 18:46:39 GMT
   I agree Carla, I hope the research presentation will allow for a variety of ideas. Teams who do research to find studies that refute global warming should be rewarded as much as teams that look for solutions to global warming.
   
   Are you coming up to Flint on Saturday? I'm sure they can find something for you to do.
   
   - Gary



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/11/2007 19:04:00 GMT
   Aww Gary thanks for the invite. I know you would have work for me. LOL ;)
   
   Wish we had the time. We are currently in the process of house hunting and help my BF's family move to CA. We have never been so busy! Carla ;)



2. Message by: robodogs2506 12/19/2007 17:51:55 GMT
   How can the other side present a researched project on the issue when their premises will surely be that the global climate change issue is based on flawed science? Specious at best.
   
   What if the question is what can we do to reduce "global climate change" and their answer is "nothing - because it is not a real issue and our activities don't have any real impact on global climate change".
   
   This is going to be a tough one for our group to do. I already have received a lot of flak from parents & team members.



1. Message by: zap4702 12/19/2007 21:22:18 GMT
   I think you're right that the overall success of the "climate change" theme as a project topic will depend on the actual question and requirements for the project.
   
   My team gravitates toward environmental topics and even chose an environmental project for NanoQuest (they envisioned a lightning rod using nanomaterials that could harvest lightning and solve the world's energy crisis - far out but they had fun researching). So I know my kids and their families will be okay with it.
   
   On the other hand, I find that the kids on my team who come from families where environmentalism is almost a religion, are the least likely to examine their sources and data in a scientific way - they need a lot of challenging to examine information critically.
   
   Another coach recently mentioned (on another list, I think) that the coach's role needs to be that of "devil's advocate" when the project is politically charged - so that the kids are challenged to think scientifically no matter which stance they take on the issue. I like that approach.
   
   Every year (this was my third) I seem to have lots of questions about all aspects of the challenge, but my team always seems to end up enjoying it - no matter what my personal misgivings are - so I'm always glad I keep my opinions to myself and let the kids run with it in the direction they choose.
   
   Doreen
   Team ZAP!



2. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/20/2007 04:55:12 GMT
   > What if the question is what can we do to reduce "global climate change" and their answer is "nothing - because it is not a real issue and our activities don't have any real impact on global climate change".
   
   Then you find sources that refute the premise that human activity is causing global change. Saying, "We don't believe in it." is no differnt than the ones who say, "We've got to do something before it's too late." Both sides need to be able to support their arguments with sources, not wishes.
   
   The judges must have an open mind and give good marks to the merit of the argument, no matter what side they think is right personally.
   
   - Gary



3. Message by: Beach Grove Robotics 12/12/2007 21:15:12 GMT
   Thanks for posting this. I thought climate change would be an obvious one for FLL!



4. Message by: hoffman1702 12/17/2007 16:42:56 GMT
   I am disappointed to hear that they have selected climate for next year's challenge. Climate change is such a political issue, that it feels more like "big brother" trying to indoctrinate a bunch of smart kids for the future agenda. It will be interesting to see what happens to the kids who really dig into the research (vs. the propaganda) that's out there. My fear is that not many will, given the age grouping. It would have been a much more appropriate high school challenge.
   
   Cynthia



5. Message by:015D2267 12/17/2007 17:22:50 GMT
   Cynthia,
   
   This a very contentious issue. Myself and another person expressed a similar opinion on our local forum and I was told this was not a political issue, it is a family values issue. I was also informed, in a rather ungracious way IMHO, that "the lunar landing was a fake, too", that "science doesn't lie".
   
   I guess this is an opportunity for us to help the kids learn ALL the theories about global warming, not just the most popular. My son and two others on our team already plan on checking out the sun spot theory, one I have heard very little about. As a coach (if I choose to accept that mission again next year), I will assume my role is to play Devil's Advocate, challenging their ideas and making them think. If they do not know how I really feel about the issue at the end of the season, I will have done my job well.
   
   It is also a great opportunity for everyone, kids and coaches alike, to find ways to graciously exchange ideas. This is a skill we all need to work on continuously. I know it would certainly help my family gatherings.
   
   Julie



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 12/17/2007 18:02:29 GMT
   I agree that this issue will have a lot controversy with it. I have already got mixed feelings from parents when I passed the news along. I too hope everyone will 'play nice' and show GP but from some of this years posting about the mission and rules I am a bit worried. When people have strong feelings about something, sometimes nice and friendly go out the window.
   
   A larger fear I have is that you will get judges who feel very strong one way or another and it will not matter what the kids present. I hope that the presentation Q&A portion does not get heated if you get a judge that feels strongly against what the kids presentation viewpoint. I can protect my kids from the forum but not from their own presentation judging. Carla
   
   Coach
   Blue Cheesy Flamingos
   MI FLL Team



6. Message by:0222520A 12/19/2007 23:42:10 GMT
   If it's doesn't cause a few arguments to flare up it isn't much of a topic. My girls started this year thinking that increasing wind and solar was the big solution. But now they think that energy production isn't much of a problem at all. The big challenge is matching production and demand schedules.
   
   I look forward to a climate change theme. It will require a lot of research and independent thinking to navigate through the quagmire of fanatics, Cleopatra's (the queen of denial), and pseudo-scientists.



7. Message by:0175DA2B 12/26/2007 02:25:46 GMT
   Ugh, what a dull topic. This recreational volunteer won't be coaching or encouraging my coworkers to contribute to FLL next year. We'll take our NXT kits and compete amongst ourselves, saving our registration money for pizza.



1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 12/26/2007 23:01:08 GMT
   Sometimes what looks like a dull topic (to you or the kids) may surprise you. We went from the "ooh, aah" of Mission to Mars, watching Spirit and Opportunity land almost immediately at the conclusion of FLL season to No Limits, a topic I feared that a team of all-male middle school students would find too "politically correct."
   
   Sure enough, first meeting, I saw looks of deflation as the topic was announced. Still, they were good sports and set their minds to do their best, planning out activities to accomplish their goal. They spent a day in a wheel chair and had interviews with 4 people from the local disabilities agency, inviting them to judge the project at our local event. Along the way, they met some talented, fun people whose company they enjoyed, and learned to look at things from a different point of view. They came away feeling that that the project was even more fun than the year before.
   
   It's easy to get involved with things that are a "natural fit", but tremendous growth can occur when we engage in things that don't necessarily appeal to us.
   
   Yolande



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/27/2007 08:56:41 GMT
   Yolande,
   
   you hit the nail on the head.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



2. Message by:0222520A 12/27/2007 20:06:30 GMT
   Having had a lot of interaction with NASA over the years I found the Mission to Mars theme rather boring. Nothing can suck the excitement out of space exploration like excessive bureaucracy.
   
   My only complaint about the 2008 theme is the similarity to this year and other environmental impact themes in the past. I'm all for environmentally aware children, but there are other fields of study/inquiry that are equally worthy.
   
   But I have to say that I'm really looking forward to a clash between the militant tree huggers I coach and some unwary team of climate change denialists. That would be a debate worth paying to see.



8. Message by: JRE135 01/05/2008 18:01:31 GMT
   I share the same concerns expressed by Carla, that for judges who feel very strong one way or another and it will not matter what the kids present. The challenge will be for the competition administrators to find competent judges that can weigh the presentations without personal bias. Hopefully that will be a factor when choosing judges.
   
   Ron
   MI FLL Coach



9. Message by: Legos In Paradise 22 05/11/2008 20:17:58 GMT
   Thank you all for your comments. This is very encouraging as we contemplate the variety of opinions we expect to come from our teams this coming season.
   
   Dan & Tami
   MI coaches

Discussion: One program! By: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 01/01/2008 22:24:07 GMT
I saw an amazing team at the Flint Michigan State tournament yesterday. 2710 Brother's Keepers ran the field using one program. It wasn't perfect, but nearly so. I don't know what they got on their first round. They were on my table on the second round, and got a 390 - the power lines were out of position by 1/4 inch so it only connected 2 properties. On their third round I saw that they had dropped one of the oil barrels off the drilling rig - with just one program and no stopping for modifications the basket they were catching in had to be pretty small. I don't know what happened on their 4th round, but I asked the team and they said something was off.

The robot returned to base several times to pick up or deliver models, but the team never touched the robot. Sometimes it would pause for a few seconds allowing them to place a new object in front of it. Other times they would place objects in base and the robot would swing by and grab them. Perhaps most amazing of all, they even released an object in the middle of the field and picked it up again!

Great job! - a pleasure to watch.

- Gary

1. Message by: panteras261 12/17/2007 20:46:44 GMT
   hey gar dop ya have a video so we can watch them



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/18/2007 15:27:39 GMT
   I don't have a video - I was too busy reffing to run a camera. I'm hoping the team will see this and post one. Calling Brother's Keepers ...
   
   - Gary



1. Message by: DarkMatter563 12/19/2007 05:33:47 GMT
   Somebody needs to fix Gary up with a camcorder-hat.
   
   Dave



2. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/19/2007 05:47:51 GMT
   We have a myspace account with a 400 run on it but I don't know how to have people get into it, I'm just one of the coaches, not one of the computer-literate team members! We are trying to get it on youtube for you all. We will keep you posted. Thanks for the recognition.
   
   Diane



1. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/20/2007 03:42:07 GMT
   Here is our MySpace account: www.myspace.com/brotherskeepers1
   
   Emory



2. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/19/2007 22:41:44 GMT
   ok here is a video of our robot getting a 400 on Google Video:
   http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4765357511095837007



1. Message by: Team4287 12/19/2007 23:10:56 GMT
   When I first saw this video my jaw just dropped. It is extremely evident that the team has an understanding of how to build and program the robot.
   
   Note: Each time I watch it I am amazed of all the hidden tricks that are programmed and built into the robot.
   
   Congratulations again for completing such a feat. It is really impressive and entertaining too.
   
   Stephen
   CO FLL Coach



2. Message by: 12/19/2007 23:23:15 GMT
   Deleted



3. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/20/2007 10:36:54 GMT
   That is a clever strategy, a well designed robot and sound programming. A real winner. Great job!
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: 12/21/2007 05:23:48 GMT
   Deleted



4. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/21/2007 02:53:06 GMT
   WOW! I am speachless. I am at a complete loss for words.
   
   The techniques I see here are truly fantastic. If you have not watched this video, do so right NOW. This video is a college course in robots in a 2.5 minute presentation.
   
   Congratulations!
   
   PS: Anyway you can make this video available to the public in a non Youtube format? Like an MOV or an AVI? I am sure to want to use this to show at various coach training classes for the next 20 years.
   
   -Skye



3. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/21/2007 05:25:05 GMT
   here is the .MOV video file of our run:
   http://www.bigupload.com/d=UL3ZJK7H2P



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/21/2007 15:40:35 GMT
   I have watched this video a dozen times of so in the last day. I am still amazed. Brother's Keepers and Flying Geeks will have to go down in the history books.
   
   I have a whole bunch of questions such as why do you have two light sensors on the actuator arm that appear to be blocked by bricks? Would your team be willing to answer them in a public forum? If not, can I get answers by email?
   
   -Skye Sweeney



2. Message by: Team_x 12/21/2007 17:22:28 GMT
   Hi Brotherskeepers will you be going to the world festival?
   Also, why did you deliver the white oil barrel and not red to the farm and making it touch the mat?



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/21/2007 17:35:14 GMT
   From looking at the video carefully, it looks like the barrel is delivered on a jig that keeps it from touching the mat. But there is not likely more than a millimeter of
   clearance!
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/21/2007 18:18:15 GMT
   I totally agree, it looks suspended in one way or the other.
   A couple of questions remain, where are the other 7 oilbarrels at the end, (there are 3 barrels in the robot, that is IN base at the end). And where is the corn and the coalcar, aren't they supposed to be in base before the end signal?
   Just questions, I'm totally admiring the accomplishment and the way they do it.
   As I wrote in my previous message, this is TOP of the bill. They are playing the game in a different league (together with the Flying Geeks indeed) If I was to referee them I would strongly consider to award them 500 points.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: Team_x 12/21/2007 23:05:52 GMT
   Hi icnrg. Will you be going to the World Festival or FLL OAC?



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 12/21/2007 23:43:31 GMT
   Deo volente,
   
   That is we have our 3countries nationals coming up. The socalled BeNeLux championship (BElgium/NEtherlands/LUxemburg). This will be January 26th, so we keep our fingers crossed. We actually are defending our last years title, so that won't be easy. The Dutch competition especially is getting more professional (read stronger) every year.
   But OK we are preparing on the main issue: HAVING A FUN TIME. And perfecting our project & presentation and smoothen our Robot performance and Tag routine we have a MM objective. What we really want is to try going int'l, so Minneapolis, Atlanta or Tokyo. IGWT.
   
   check our youtube movies for instance this one:
   
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMOJHSdM_c
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



4. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/24/2007 08:36:16 GMT
   I am Jonathan, the chief programmer of Brothers Keepers.
   It is very dangerous to do everything in one run because if we make a mistake we have to start from the beginning.
   We fixed this with the light sensors.
   There are black and white lego blocks, which rotate so that you can put the black or white block in front of the light sensors.
   The program is divided in to four parts.
   When the program starts it checks the light sensors to determine which part of the program to run.
   If the robot is rescued the light sensors caps can be set to tell what task to start with.
   This way only one program is needed, one very long program.
   We used the old RCX sensors so that we could put both a light and a touch sensor on one input port.
   
   As for the drum, the axle holds it just off the mat.
   
   The program is 146 blocks long with many myblocks.
   The myblocks are stored in a separate folder from the main program.
   We are not sure how to display this easily.



5. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/24/2007 18:11:15 GMT
   This is from the Brothers Keepers head coach.
   The competition in Atlanta has a shortage of positions open. To solve this problem the number of teams allowed to attend is limited to one per state and we attended the state competition which was designated to be skipped this year. It is my understanding that there are still a few ( say 10 ) openings and teams are selected based on how well a team exhibits the core FLL values. The Brothers Keepers is a very good team but there are many other very good teams, which make our chances of attending Atlanta small.
   The team would really like to attend a competition somewhere. If you want to see us at your competition, talk to your organization. We will most likley attend any competition we are invited to.
   
   Duane Eddy
   
   You can contact me at eeainc@centurytel.net
   
   PS. Skye, can you send me an email?
   We have an idea for FLL we would like to discuss with you.
   
   Thanks



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/24/2007 18:39:11 GMT
   Duane Eddy,
   
   All coach emails (the one you supplied when you registered) are available by clicking on the team name. That will bring up a page with team info.
   
   But in case,... Skye@fll-freak.com
   
   -Skye



2. Message by:0222520A 12/24/2007 22:30:12 GMT
   If you don't get to go to Atlanta I'm pretty sure you will receive an invitation to the INSciTE invitational in Minneapolis Minnesota. Check here for details.
   
   http://www.hightechkids.org/?2-1-1111



3. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/25/2007 01:19:06 GMT
   Since you have been so forthcomming in your answers...
   
   My basic understanding:
   Two NXT motors for locomotion direct connect to Mars Rover wheels.
   RCX Touch sensor mounted on arm for "down" position feedback.
   RCX touch sensor on the back? bumber of the robot.
   Two RCX light sensors on arm but looking at a close brick. Used for backup program selection.
   One ultrasonic sensor pointing in reverse.
   Wall following and wall squaring wheels on both sides of bot.
   One motor controlled "do everything" arm system geared down and controlled from an RCX? motor.
   
   Questions:
   What software language are you using?
   Do you have backup programs if something goes wrong? (Sounds like it from the previous posts)
   What was your success rate at home?
   What was your success rate at competition?
   Is the arm motor and RCX motor?
   Do you have a light sensor hidden under the robot looking for lines? How about a picture of the underside?
   What do you use the US sensor for?
   How did you plan the grand tour? Did it evolve or was it planned out early on.
   Must the robot push hard against something to activate the bumper switch? It looks like the gray beam might have to defect to expose the switch.
   
   If you do not want to answer these I will fully understand.
   
   Still waiting for your idea via email.
   
   -Skye "Still in awe" Sweeney



6. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/25/2007 20:55:02 GMT
   All motors are NXT motors
   The counter is used on the hoist motor, the motor position is lost when a coast or timed movement is used. That is why we need a position verification touch sensor.
   
   The touch sensor is used on the back to verify that we have a very good straight touch on the wall. On the movie you may notice, after the truck the robot resets itself on the wall because it does not have touch verification of good contact.
   
   The standard block programming which came with the NXT is used.
   
   The main programs have three switches based on the light sensor.
   The first light sensor toggles between the first and second half of the mat.
   In the upper and lower branch of light sensor 1 there is a light sensor 2 toggle.
   The light sensor 2 determines if the first or second quarter in the designated half is to be run.
   
   Quarters 2, 3, and 4 have a rescue setup program which takes the robot out of base and runs it to the position it needs to be to continue with the main program.
   
   There is no light sensor under the robot but if we build another robot there will be one.
   
   The ultrasonic sensor is used to stop the robot before it hits the girl and the flowers.
   Loose lego parts on the mat is a dangerous thing.
   
   We do our core robot early and determine the strategy when the mat layout is given.
   We needed a challenge and when Gary quoted yours it was just what we needed.
   So it was planned from the beginning.
   
   Yes, the robot has to be very straight to hit the touch switch, but if it is not, the turn to uranium is not accurate enough.
   
   We could not do it without sensors.
   The tires and the gray beam deflect. It is necessary to have a soft hit or the robot will bounce away from the wall slightly defeating the touch switch.
   
   We have had 6 runs in a row on our table at 400. The cause for failure is that the battery goes below the range we use.
   We have two robots that run on the same program and it doesn*t matter which robot is used.
   
   In competition we have not had a 400 run. Our highest is 390.
   In regional our high score was 340. The improvement was from determining what variations a different board has and compensating for them between the tournaments.
   If we had to do it again we would find someplace to tryout others boards.
   
   I do not believe the secret to having a successful team has to do with the program used.
   
   Here is some advice from the perspective of one veteran coach.
   
   A good team is defined by three words. Balance, rules and research.
   
   Balance *
   The competition is four parts not one.
   If you think that high score on the robot will make you win guess again.
   We had a high score of 390 which gave us a 97% with the robot.
   This means that if we had a 400 we would only gain 3%.
   If you get a 70% on teamwork you are not going beyond state.
   
   Team work
   We practiced as a team taking random jobs working as a team.
   Every member had to learn to be leader, hard for the followers.
   Every member had to learn to be a follower, hard for the leaders.
   Teach your team members to pass a question to the shy member when the topic is something they can handle.
   
   Project
   It is not how much work you put into the project it is how well you answer the rubrics.
   Pretend you are a judge. It is your job to fill out a form. You want to check the boxes but if you can not see the answer it is hard to give the highest grades. Answer the rubrics in the order the judge has to answer it.
   It is not possible to setup and present much research in 5 min. You will not be able to present everything so what ever you do has to look fantastic. Visual is the fastest way to convey information. Go somewhere do something, don*t spend all your time in front of a computer. Find some interesting facts that the judge does not know.
   
   



7. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/25/2007 23:01:27 GMT
   continuation of coaches advice
   
   Robot technical
   Build your robot for the technical judge. They represent just as much of your grade as the ref does. Lots of sensors and find some creative ways to use the sensors. Do something that no one else has done. They will not know you can do it unless you show them. We did not need to use the ultrasonic sensor, we choose to. We carry the car to be different. Give the judge something to remember you.
   The judges will ask questions about your robot but they do not know a lot about it. You must tell them.
   
   Rules for the coach*s
   
   Some things we have found work well for the coach*s
   
   In our team it is mandatory for the coach*s to build a robot.
   Are you shocked? Don't be.
   You can not teach a class unless you have done it yourself.
   
   The team is required to test it and disassemble it until no two pieces remain together.
   
   It is against our rules to allow a coach*s robot to survive.
   
   When the coach*s turn is over they must keep there hand off!
   
   It is amazing how many coach*s can not follow this simple rule.
   It is the coach*s job to assure the team is following the rubrics which is the last thing a coach wants to do so the team must remind them often.
   
   The team may copy any coach robot they wish but it must be copied from memory not a working model.
   Trust me it will not be the same.
   
   Research
   
   The most neglected part of the task is research.
   Which tires have the best grip?
   Does clean tires make a difference?
   When is the voltage discharge curve the flattest or most consistent?
   How accurate are the sensors?
   Do they very from one to another?
   How accurate can the robot movement be?
   Where is the center of gravity of the robot and how low must it be to have a stable condition?
   Do motors have the same power output or run the same speed?
   Can the distortion of the joints cause the robot to move differently?
   
   Most coach*s and team members want to jump into the construction without understanding what the constraints are.
   Not only are you damaging your chances to win, you are teaching the team an unscientific approach.
   First we determine and learn then we implement.
   
   A good coach plays by the rules of FLL instead of suggesting the rules should be changed to fit their personal bents.
   
   We encourage open competition and will have several team members attempt to build something as soon as all of the research is completed. We stress that the individual is only one of several and their ideas will seldom be used as the odds dictate. We typically have two robot prototypes at the time of the release of the tasks on the mat. The final version is a composite of the two with consideration of what the robot will be required to do.
   
   A good coach bites the bottom lip a lot because professional courtesy for a coach is placing the team development before winning.
   
   Ouch, Ouch, Ouch.
   
   This is what worked for us.
   Some of the other coachs may have different views.
   
   Duane Eddy



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/26/2007 00:16:10 GMT
   What a wonderful Christmas present! Lots of great technical information and coaching advice. It will take me some time to digest all this information. Thank you!
   
   -Skye



8. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 12/31/2007 23:50:48 GMT
   I'm glad that you are enjoying our information we're releasing, we are glad to be able to offer as much help as we can. We've been working for 5 years to find this info. and some teams get too old before they have a chance to figure out what makes good presentations and performances. If you have any other question please feel free to ask we would really enjoy answering questions!
   
   Emory (one of the team members)



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 01/01/2008 00:13:12 GMT
   Emory,
   
   At what points during the mission to you use the ultrasonic sensor?
   
   When delivering the solar panel, does your robot push up against the base plate of the house to align itself?
   
   Are your alternate missions for failures simply to skip sections of the start of the huge mission or are they unique missions?
   
   I am currently working on an edited version of the video you provided. I am adding some slow motion at critical points and some technical descriptions. I plan to use this video in future coach training.
   
   -Skye



9. Message by: BrothersKeepers2710 01/01/2008 22:24:07 GMT
   We use our ultrasonic sensor to straighten up against the house to deliver the solar panel, we found that the ultrasonic sensor can stop within 1/4" of a preset destination, but both eyes have to see the destination, the house is big enough for both eyes to see the destination.
   
   Yes our robot does straighten against the base of the house.
   
   Our alternate missions are just a way that we can skip some tasks to save time. Also if we started everything over half way through the program we wouldn't be accurate because we wouldn't have the weight of the car so it would throw us off. We don't really have alternate missions, we just cut into different parts of our program and the robot goes to that part of the program.
   
   Once again if anyone has any further questions please ask! We would LOVE to answer them!
   
   -Emory and Brothers Keepers

Discussion: Smart Module system. MOT revealed By: Watt 12/18/2007 23:37:30 GMT
Hello everybody,

Team Watt is a dutch team that has been developing a modular robotdesign which allows very short rebuild times in between missions for the last 2 years, called MOT.
Since we get more and more questions from teams how to build this, we have added some instructions (in English) to our website, which is mainly in dutch. http://www.freewebs.com/wattateam/mottechniek.htm
We invite everybody to share and try this design, because it is really fast.

Good luck with all the tournaments still comming up, our next game is Beneluxfinals in Enschede, Netherlands.

Greetz
Watt a team!

1. Message by: Sharon_MA_5472 12/18/2007 18:37:36 GMT
   This is very interesting. Are you relying on the weight of the RCX/NXT to keep the gears in contact vertically?
   
   Some translation issues:
   "castor" should be "caster"
   "gead" should be "gear" (I think)
   
   --Jack Gregory



1. Message by: Watt 12/18/2007 23:37:30 GMT
   Hello, thanks for the spelling corrections.
   
   Yes sometimes we DO rely on the weight of the robot.
   You can trust me on this because we have done this for 2 years now. Sometimes it happens that the gears slip. than you can choose between two options. place the gears in a way in which the main robot actually pulls itself towards the chassis. or you can put a pin between the two parts, this will prevent the gears from slipping.
   
   For further questions you can send an e-mail to the e-mail adress attached to our team name. or you can e-mail me at bommel201@hotmail.com
   
   Robert
   PR management WATT

Discussion: Club By-Laws By: PlaceritaTech3910 12/27/2007 04:12:31 GMT
We are about to change our program a little bit and we will now need to have a set of by-laws that govern the club. I was wondering if anyone had by-laws that they would be willing to share.

Thanks and Happy Holidays
Paul
Placerita Robotics
Newhall, Ca

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/22/2007 23:21:35 GMT
   Are you talking about official non-profit organization type by-laws or are you talking about a list of dos and donts for club members?
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: PlaceritaTech3910 12/23/2007 00:47:22 GMT
   I'd actually like to see both kinds. We began as a GATE program and didn't need anything, then we moved into our own organization but now we are being asked to become a club under our ASB. (It's a very complicated story) ASB requires us to have a set of by-laws (mission, guidelines, officers, etc). If this doesn't work, we are going to have to do the non-profit thing. So again, both would be great. Thanks for anything you can help with.
   
   Paul
   Placerita Robotics
   Newhall, Ca



1. Message by: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 12/27/2007 04:12:31 GMT
   I would encourage you to go to ChiefDelphi.com and look at some of the FRC programs described in the Team Organization sub-forum. Many FRC teams are independently operated.
   
   - Gary

Discussion: Advice needed on non-legal sensors By: FLL-Freak 12/28/2007 04:49:21 GMT
I just got a LEGO gift certificate that will cover one of the non FLL legal NXT sensors. These include the 3 axis accelerometer, one axis gyro, and one axis compass. I would love to hear what NXT people have found fun to play with off season or just for fun.

-Skye

1. Message by:0222520A 12/27/2007 23:52:10 GMT
   The compass sensor is nice, but the 3 axis accelerometer is much more useful.



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/28/2007 00:14:06 GMT
   What type of cool projects have you used the 3 axis accelerometer on?
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: bears299 12/28/2007 04:30:36 GMT
   Just curious, IF the compass sensor had been legal last year, would the magnets in the nanotip have affected its funtioning?
   
   Linda



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 12/28/2007 04:49:21 GMT
   Compasses are very sensitive to magnetic fields. An active magnet like the nanotip or even a hunk of metal nearby will distort the weak Earth magnetic field. Even the magnets in the motors will cause problems and they will get even worst when the motor is running. Normal procedure is only to use a mag compass when the motors are off.
   
   Disturbances like metal and permanent magnets in the local area can be compensated away if the geometry to those items does not change. A ship captain will have a card posted near the ship's binacle (compass station) that will have the corrections for the metal in his ship. But this card will not help him as he steams towards a island make of iron ore.
   
   Compasses are a great tool, but certainly have their issues.
   
   -Skye

Discussion: "Fantasy" FLL tournament-- By: cglf631 01/13/2008 02:49:08 GMT
Hi, this just to let people know about something fun to do with all the video and write-ups you've been accumulating this season, and to find out if enough people like the idea that the team should do it again next year or help other teams start up something similar.

FFLL is a free-form, mail-in local tournament hosted by the kids of Mega Ultimate Demon Dudes (M.U.D.D.), Team 631. Teams compete for fun awards by sending in video and photos of their runs, projects, team personalities, and whatever else suits them.

For info, visit the team's website--the FFLL information is at:

http://www.freewebs.com/worms4d/FFLL.html

International teams are welcome, too, but the host team only has members who know English, some French, and conversational Mandarin.

Vanessa
Coach, Team MUDD

1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 01/13/2008 02:49:08 GMT
   Vanessa & Team MUDD,
   
   I LOVE the concept! Hope you get lots of good entries.
   
   Yolande

Discussion: JFLL team looking to join Fll team By: puzzletwo2007 01/17/2008 22:40:07 GMT
Hello! We are a homeschool JFLL team that has grown up. We are looking for an established FLL team in the Indianapolis area to join.
Thanks.

1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 01/16/2008 18:20:58 GMT
   Contact your local FLL state tournament director. He can help you get in contact with teams in the area. Good Luck, Carla :)
   
   Coach
   Blue Cheesy Flamingos
   MI FLL



1. Message by: puzzletwo2007 01/17/2008 22:40:07 GMT
   Thank you so much. I will do that. Best of luck to you next season!
   Rebecca

Discussion: VIDEOS we all like to share and see! By: icNRG 2340 01/23/2008 18:40:02 GMT
FLL is all about sharing knowledge. Getting the kids into engineering and programming. And not to forget teamwork. We kick off with this footage of team icNRG training the TAG-routine with 7 chassis changes using the SUPER HORNET mighty MRC robot design scoring 400 points in a ballet like choreography. We call this BIG FUN !!!
CHeck out our website as well www.icnrg.nl

Who's next?

take this link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iYFUJPz0GE

1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 01/23/2008 00:24:20 GMT
   Great video! Your team takes tag-teaming to a new level, with all the assisting that each member does for his/her partner. Ballet is a good description.
   
   Yolande



1. Message by: Chicnology 01/23/2008 00:37:01 GMT
   Congratulations to ALL the teams who participated in the 2007 NH State FLL Tournament.
   
   I especially want to congratulate Chicnology (Team 3077).
   
   Just making it to the NH State Tournament is quite an accomplishment. Finishing 10th place out of 52 "top notch" teams is extraordinary and receiving the "mentorship" award was phenomenal!
   
   We are all very proud of you!
   
   http://youtube.com/watch?v=siruzmV9qU8
   320 points...Not your maximum but very respectable indeed!



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 01/23/2008 18:40:02 GMT
   FLL videos are so nice to view! Especially the expressions on the faces are so funny!
   Way to go Chicnology! And nice hairdo (coaches)
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl

Discussion: Former FLL'er recognized By: MI FLL Volunteer Moderator 01/22/2008 17:51:27 GMT
The January edition of the FIRST Newsletter is out. Go to usfirst.org, the "View Newsletter" link, and then the Spotlight "On Students" link near the bottom. "Brittany Voshol travels through FIRST"

(Some of you may recognize the last name)

The direct link to the article is http://www.usfirst.org/who/content.aspx?id=7890

- Gary

Discussion: 2008 - 4 motors??? By: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/05/2008 00:57:58 GMT
I am wondering if anyone else has heard talk of adding a 4th motor to the rules for next year. The idea being that you would be able to then manipulate objects on the X and Y axis at the same time instead of just one or the other. Has anyone else heard this? Any thoughts? Thanks, Carla ;)

Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 02/28/2008 04:50:41 GMT
   Not sure how this would be possible with only LEGO parts. The RCX and NXT have only three motor ports. Multiplexers to allow you to control more motors are not LEGO parts.
   
   I suspect this is just a wild rumor.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 02/28/2008 15:29:00 GMT
   Thanks Skye! That does make a lot more sense. I knew I was missing something and just could not put my finger on it. Carla ;)



2. Message by: lightsavers2634 02/28/2008 21:49:27 GMT
   You could control 4+ motors if you use a few RCX-NXT convertor cables, but you wouldn't be able to control them all independently.
   
   -David (the kid)



3. Message by:0222520A 02/29/2008 21:27:16 GMT
   Power function motors with an IR transmitter on the NXT. Better yet a new power functions controller with serial interface.
   
   I don't expect any hardware changes soon, but based on early NXT press releases I'd bet we'll get new software before next season. I wish I still had the migration path document that showed multiple phases of NXT software development.
   
   Dean Hystad



4. Message by: robotmasters53 03/01/2008 21:57:45 GMT
   If the motors are built into attachments, you can easily make use of larger number of mortors at the table (although only 3 at a time will be attached to the robot).
   
   If getting a couple of working axis for your arm is an objective, teams have done it before with only 1 motor for the arm. You can check out some older video of Mindstorm Mayhem's (watch their No Limits video). Key seems to be to provide right interface from the ARM motor and various attachments.
   
   http://www.mindstormsmayhem.org/team-videos.asp



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 03/02/2008 10:33:58 GMT
   Sorry Robot masters53, what you write is totally INCORRECT.
   I put it this way because some readers think that everything written in this forum is true. Well what you state is NOT. Please remove your posting from this topic!
   
   RULE number 7 ( it has been around for years and I think this will continue.
   
   7. Materials This rule is not just about the robot... This rule controls everything you bring from the pit area to the competition area including the robot, all attachments, and all strategic objects when viewed all at once as a package. All these objects must be made entirely of LEGO elements in original factory condition (except LEGO string and tubing may be cut to length), and must conform to the following quantity limits on electrical parts, no matter what you intend to use or connect or attach to the robot at any one time:
   
   etcetera
   
   this means the maximum motors is three (3)
   
   7. Materials This rule is not just about the robot... This rule controls everything you bring from the pit area to the competition area including the robot, all attachments, and all strategic objects when viewed all at once as a package.
   
   Sorry sounding rude but I think it will be wise if you (robotmasters53) remove this posting from th forum.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: bears299 03/02/2008 17:53:39 GMT
   I believe the robotmasters were trying to give an example of how a team could utilize 4 motors (if the rules were changed to allow 4 motors) when only 3 motor ports are available on the NXT brick. Actually, you could build 4 motors into your robot design, and then swap which wires were plugged into the ports, so one mission could use a motor which moves an arm up and down, and a different mission could use an arm that moves left and right.
   
   Linda



5. Message by: icNRG 2340 03/02/2008 19:02:31 GMT
   Okay linda, perhaps you are right there.
   
   But I've encountered too often postings that are misinterpretated and read by teams with problematic outcome. And that is what I want to prevent.
   
   Clear rules and strict enforcement will be needed because year after year the problems get bigger.
   
   And by the way we really need to skip leniency altogether (rule 18) I've seen too many really big violations that were tolerated, even in the nationals.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/03/2008 15:38:28 GMT
   You will see a big change next year with rule simplification. I don't think you will see these same problems occur again. Carla ;)
   
   Coach
   Blue Cheesy Flamingos
   MI FLL Team



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 03/03/2008 16:16:32 GMT
   That would be something!
   
   I would not mind to help assess the new set of rules and to make life easier for Scott Evans. Hereby I volonteer! I am sure several veteran coaches/diehard FLL enthusiasts are a good knowledge bank, further good ideas already saw life in this forum
   
   example : CGMSC745 "2007 Challenge too easy?" 12/18/07 6:36pm
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/03/2008 16:25:15 GMT
   LOL you are not the only one giving Scott feedback. He has already had a ton of help knowing what needs to be changed. Over the course of the last 2 seasons he has gotten a bit of feedback. That is what he is using to redefine the rules with. I am so excited about next year I can't wait!! Carla ;)
   
   Coach
   Blue Cheesy Flamingos
   MI FLL Team



1. Message by: icNRG 2340 03/03/2008 16:37:55 GMT
   Carla that is not what I meant.
   To be more precise I think it would be wise to present the new set of rules in draft version (SO before publication) to a panel of people like you and me. In that way problems and possible loopholes can be solved/eliminated so that the QA's can be kept to a strict minimum.
   
   Coach D (Doede)
   Dutch FLL-team icNRG * I see ENERGY !
   Visit our website http://www.icnrg.nl



1. Message by:0222520A 03/04/2008 22:07:20 GMT
   Release the rules early to a select few teams? I'm sure nobody will have a problem with that.



1. Message by: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 03/04/2008 23:09:21 GMT
   How about a few retired coaches who are only mildly bribeable :-)?
   
   Yolande



1. Message by: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/04/2008 23:19:07 GMT
   LOL Now that was funny!



2. Message by: icNRG 2340 03/05/2008 00:57:58 GMT
   hear hear

Discussion: NEW BOOK: Classroom Activities for the Busy Teacher: NXT By: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/03/2008 23:57:07 GMT
Classroom Activities for the Busy Teacher: NXT

Has anyone used or seen this book in detail? I am trying to evaluate if the work sheets and lessons would be valuable during summer workshops.... Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks, Carla ;)

Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team

Discussion: Research - current solution vs future solution By: BlueCheesyFlamingos 03/05/2008 17:56:31 GMT
Hi all,
We are in the planning phase for the '08 season and I got a question I wasn't sure how to answer.

The questions was:
Do the research solutions have to be a currently researched solution or could it be a possible solution in 10 years because there is still a lot of research going into it?

Basically what he was trying to find out was if there was VERY new research and there was not a lot of data (or sometimes not any at all) to back up the theory yet is it still ok to present as a solution? Thanks for the help, Carla ;)

Coach
Blue Cheesy Flamingos
MI FLL Team

Discussion: NXT Curriculum By: CV CA Volunteer Moderator 03/10/2008 23:51:10 GMT
Has anyone used the NXT Robotics Engineering 1 Curriculum (Product # W991282, legoeducation.com)? Any commentary?

Also, do you have other NXT curriculum that you've found useful? I tried searching on this forum but didn't find what I'm looking for.

Yolande

Discussion: purchasing an extra field setup kit By: powerstormers 05/02/2008 07:18:16 GMT
Does anyone know if teams are allowed to purchase a 2nd field set-up kit?

We're a home school team and it's caused problems having the set-up in one home only. Other team members would like to be able to work on solving missions at their homes too.

I can't find any option on the form to let one team purchase 2 field set-ups. Does anyone know if it's possible, and how to do it?

1. Message by: zap4702 05/01/2008 22:26:38 GMT
   I'm pretty sure the only way to purchase an additional field kit is to pay for another team registration as well (and even though that's an expensive solution, I do know of teams who do this). Each registered team is allowed to purchase only one field kit.
   
   I feel your pain - we're a homeschool team too. The kids on my team have sometimes taken just certain field models home to work with between meetings, but I agree it's not ideal.
   
   Doreen



1. Message by: powerstormers 05/02/2008 07:18:16 GMT
   Thanks for the quick response.
   
   I guess it's just something we'll have to live with!

---

Folder: FLL Programming Discussions 08/23/2007 23:29:28 GMT

---

Folder: General Programming Questions 10/26/2007 01:51:17 GMT


Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 10/13/2007 03:44:37 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

1. Message by: Robostorm 09/18/2007 17:47:17 GMT
   For the RCX, how would you program a third motor to lift and lower.
   
   Robostorm



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/18/2007 18:26:05 GMT
   What language are you using?
   
   Do you want to lift and lower based on time, position, or perhaps a light or touch sensor?
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: Robostorm 09/19/2007 00:43:19 GMT
   I think I would lift and lower based on time.
   
   Robostorm



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/19/2007 02:08:00 GMT
   Well, you answered 1/2 of the question!
   
   What language are you using? RIS on RCX, Robolab on RCX, NXT-G on NXT, or Robolab on NXT?
   
   -Skye



2. Message by: Robostorm 09/24/2007 17:03:35 GMT
   OH. I think we are using Robolab on RCX.



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/24/2007 17:46:35 GMT
   In that case, you would:
   
   1) Turn on the motor using a motor icon to turn on the proper motor(by connecting the proper modifier).
   
   2) Use a WaitForTime icon with the proper time modifier.
   
   3) Turn on the motor with the proper red stop sign icon.
   
   If you can't figure it out from this general outline, then you might want to look on the web for Robolab examples. You can find some at www.fll-freak.com under the team pages.
   
   -Skye



3. Message by: robotrix6079 10/12/2007 02:01:18 GMT
   My NXT software will not download. It says I have to have administrator powers to download this, but I am the only administrator on this PC. A little help, please!!!



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 03:36:34 GMT
   Do you mean download or install? Are you trying to install NXT-G or send an NXT program from your PC to the NXT?
   
   What operating system are you using? You may be the only user of the PC, but that does not mean the account you are using by default has admin privaledges.
   
   -Skye



4. Message by: robotrix6079 10/12/2007 16:26:47 GMT
   I mean install NXT-G on my PC, and I know I am admin, I have gone into my control panel. I use IE9



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 10/12/2007 16:49:50 GMT
   How have you verified that you have admin privaledges on your PC? Just bringing up Control Panel is not proof. Did you go into the User Accounts Applet?
   
   So I assume you place the CD into your computer and it autostarts. You then go through some number of steps before it yells at you for not being an admin. It might help others help you if you gave us the exact sequence and the exact text of the failure notice.
   
   -Skye



5. Message by: robotrix6079 10/13/2007 03:44:37 GMT
   OK, I just got it to work, I used a non-admin account. But after I saved a block, the computer went defunct. I cannot use a lot of stuff. If I try, an alert comes up saying (title)BJC_4300(end of title)You do not have the rights to use Microsoft Word.(end of alert) You can replace Microsoft Word with whatever I am trying to open.

Discussion: Version 1.1 & Firmware 1.05 issues By: b1001592 10/26/2007 01:51:17 GMT
I've reluctantly made the move to V 1.1 with Firmware 1.05 ( memory benefit ) and now I have some issues with motor control. Previous versions we had the robot ramp up speed with coasts between motor commands. In the latest version, we've re-written same program but the coasts don't coast, more of a stop and go method ( which is a problem for us ). I've gone back and tried firmware 1.04 & V 1.1 but that didn't help. any ideas?

1. Message by: Team4287 10/25/2007 17:41:11 GMT
   We are using firmware V1.1 and I noticed that too.
   
   Fortunately, the firmware was updated at the beginning of the season so the team has learned to deal with that.
   
   I have also noticed that the delay between blocks is fairly large (~0.1-0.2 seconds). This has caused some issues using the various sensors and "fine tuned movement." To address these issues the team uses lower power. Unfortunately, this comes with a penalty...time.
   
   While I don't have access to the robot at the moment, you might want to try the following experiment for both V1.05 and V1.1 in a continuous loop:
   1) Move the robot forward at 100% continuous power.
   2) Immediately stop the motors.
   3) Go to step 1
   
   If the loops are fast, I would expect to remain still, but my guess is that it will move forward fairly quickly (though jerky). This might help you decide which version of code is better.
   
   I wish if I could help you further, but unfortunately we have what we have.
   
   -- Stephen



1. Message by: homebotics1229 10/25/2007 18:03:39 GMT
   I wanted to add another thought to the issues with the software . . . we know we can't change the software so we must program the hardware around it. In the real engineering workplace, this is reasonable (though not desireable) scenario.
   
   With our team this year, we began the season by talk extensively about what is precision and what is tolerance. There are limitations on what the hardware and software are capable of performing. If the tema members can grasp that, it provides them a fabulous opportunity to be creative within its restraints.
   
   Hope that helps with this discussion
   
   Theresa



2. Message by: b1001592 10/26/2007 01:51:17 GMT
   Thanks for the feedback - I know we can re-design around this problem; I was hoping to avoid that and more importantly I wanted to make sure I wasn't in left field on the impact of the s/w upgrade. I really like the coast benefit that previous version provided. I would still love to hear from other teams too.
   
   - Doug

---

Folder: Miscellaneous Programming Questions 12/10/2007 21:25:48 GMT


Discussion: RobotC By: 01749AFB 09/09/2007 17:31:19 GMT
Is FLL going to allow programming in CMU's RobotC for the 2008 game?

1. Message by:0222520A 08/24/2007 04:32:35 GMT
   Won't know until September 5. But my early guess is no.



1. Message by: legoaces44 08/24/2007 16:43:37 GMT
   It would be a great move if FLL lifted the restriction on programming language to allow Robot-C. NTX-G is a good language, but has some inherent limitations based on the high level of simplification and abstraction. NXT-G is super-slow to execute on the brick and does not allow one to truly understand and control the core elements of a robot. Robolab is OK, but does not make much sense for new teams to adopt, as it will be unsupported in the future. Robot-C would be a great way for kids to learn and understand more fundamentals of programming as a part of FLL. Kids are amazing in their ability to learn new technical stuff, I think we should take off the restrictions and let them explore, develop and program with whatever software they are up for. We'll see what direction FLL takes, they do a good job at making the right decisions on these issues.
   
   -MatterWorks
   Coach of LegoAces Team#44



1. Message by: The Flux Capacitors 24 08/24/2007 17:20:47 GMT
   I am familiar with Robolab for RCXs and have the software that came with the NXT we recently purchased, but am not familiar with Robot-C. Where do you get it? Who made it, etc? Also, is Robolab 2.9, which works with the NXT, like working with Robolab on RCXs?
   
   Eric
   Team 24



1. Message by: FloridaModirator 08/24/2007 20:06:51 GMT
   But think of the problems having all the different languages would be for judging. I know of at least these Robolab, NXT-G, I, I++, BB, MSVS-Robot, lava and whatever other languages are out there.
   
   I've taught programming to 9-14 year old for some time, and IMHO, I find that the process of programming is the important part they take with them. Modular, iterative development, constant testing, documenting and such are much more easily absorbed when the language is simple. C and Java are cool tools, but the kids get stuck in the details and often write one giant method for each program.



2. Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/09/2007 17:31:19 GMT
   RoboLab 2.9 works the same for the NXT as it did for the RCX. The only difference is that when you download the program to the robot, a Choose Hardware dialog will come up and you will be given a choice of which platform you are downloading to - RCX, NXT, or Control Lab (which doesn't matter for FLL).
   
   RobotC can be purchased from http://www.legoeducation.com or directly from the Carnegie Mellon University Robotics Academy at http://www-education.rec.ri.cmu.edu/. Since LEGO Education sells RobotC that puts it in a different position than most other languages mentioned in an earlier post - pretty much the same position as RoboLab in my opinion (which is created by Tufts University and sold by LEGO Education).
   
   Larry



2. Message by:0222520A 09/04/2007 21:54:07 GMT
   If NXT-G is too simple why not try full-blown LabView? You'll still have the pokey firmware, but many of the "innards" are exposed. My girls mastered NXT-G last year and are anxious to write some custom program blocks using LabView this year.



1. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/05/2007 14:40:49 GMT
   You should check with FLL first before having the kids write custom blocks in Labview. I'm thinking that will not be one of the "allowed" languages.
   
   The purpose of the language restriction is in three:
   1) Levels the playing field by reducing the ability of non team members writing code that makes the robot behave differently.
   
   2) In a real world scenario, you would have to use what you are constrained to to make the project work, even if there is a better something out there.
   
   3) The kids have to make choices, similar to the board, not all teams can get a 400. They have this much time to do their best with what is given. Do you use a move or a motor block? Do you do the 35 point or the 45 point mission first.
   
   Hope this makes sense. It's not about the robot or the game, its about the excitement of the act - engineering.
   
   Laura



2. Message by: NCFIRST 08/27/2007 22:07:45 GMT
   My guess is no based on page 31 in the Coaches' Handbook. It lists RIS, Robolab and NXT-G but no mention of RobotC.
   
   Marie

Discussion: Mini-blocks By: The Crew 10/31/2007 20:25:55 GMT
Hey our team just got the new nxt-G program and we where wondering if we could use the mini-blocks in it?

1. Message by: FloridaModirator 08/29/2007 16:26:00 GMT
   Yes, you can use any of the features in the NXT-G software.
   Laura



1. Message by: theguysinside644 09/12/2007 02:15:01 GMT
   This seems to say that you can't use them. It also seems to say that we must go back to version 1.0 of the firmware. Are we really being restricted this much?
   
   Fred
   
   QA22 More Software
   9-07-07
   
   Q: Helpful add-ons to NXT-G such as the smaller mini-move block and other new programming blocks are available. Although they do not come "in Lego sets", are the new blocks and new firmware OK if used with allowable programming software?
   
   A: We're trying to provide a fun technical experience for kids where they learn by doing, and where things are as fair as possible. We chose LEGO robots because LEGO is universally known for its simplicity, quality, and versatility, right out of the box. Kids and coaches are already comfortable with it as a toy, but we leverage it as the unparalleled electromechanical prototyping medium that it is. To keep things as unintimidating and fair as possible, we simply constrain the allowable kit to LEGO pieces in stock form, and LEGO software in stock form (from FLL kits). This way, a perspective coach who's strong on passion but weak on computers (the vast majority of coaches) can look at FLL and know that everything needed comes in the box, and kids can work with it right off the shelf, and those kids can make a good showing. Of course some teams do have engineers and programmers as coaches, and that's great for those teams, but it amounts to an unfairness we have had to accept and live with, and there are others, but we must strive to keep them to a minimum. So we make it clear, in our FLL values and rules, that we expect the kids to do the work, with the kit provided, and nothing but guidance from the adults. Increasingly though, we face questions like the one above, and really, we can't assess and control all that stuff, so we remind you that you're on your honor. Did the kids do everything? Can they explain all of it to the judges? Great. The software rule is the simplest one we have. We can't state it any more clearly, and neither can we control how you program, but if you're downloading programming blocks and firmware, you're using something that didn't come in the kit, written by someone other than the kids on your team. Some may consider that a form of sharing, some may not. But when you need to ask an ethical question, by definition what you're asking about is questionable. The most we can hope is that coaches understand how much more valuable the process is than the points, and that the full power of FLL comes from coaches who focus the kids on accomplishments instead of results.



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/12/2007 03:11:42 GMT
   I agree that this sounds like you must use the software out of the box without alteration including miniblocks.
   
   But, the software (NTX-G 1.0 or 1.1) ITSELF provides for an upgrade path using the help menu item. If you could not upgrade the software using LEGO's own updates, then a large chunk of 1.0 people would have NXTs that are useless. On many computers, the supplied software WILL NOT work in any shape or form.
   
   I think what FLL is thinking about is the ability of people to write their own blocks using the SDK and an expensize copy of Labview. In this regard I fully support FLL's position.
   
   -Skye



2. Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 04:03:52 GMT
   Expensive?? You mean the student copy of LabView that National Instruments sent me FOR FREE! I didn't even have to pay shipping, let alone the $20 upgrade fee like last years teams are paying to get V1.1 NXT-G software, or the $69 single user charge for ROBOLAB ($49 upgrade).
   
   At least FLL is consistently inconsistent on this issue. I guess I can only do LabView level programming if I decide to use ROBOLAB.
   
   Dean Hystad



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/12/2007 13:07:30 GMT
   Dean,
   
   It would appear that I am a bit behind the curve on this one. Last I looked, LabView started at over $1,000. The version I have at work is nearly $10,000 for a single seat licence. At those type of prices I would understand FLL's position on just the money aspect. Rich teams would have a leg up on other teams.
   
   But then again, the whole reason that FLL stuck with RIS, Robolab, and now NXT-G was an attempt to get the coaches away from the computer and let the kids do the work.
   
   Now I am not suggesting that you would be like that. YOUR reputation as a LEGO demigod is inpeachable. You would take the time to teach the kids how to use the C, Java, or Labview tools to write whicked code. But I hope you will admit that the pressure is reduced on "over involved" coaches to write the code themselves if all they can use is RIS, NXTG, and Robolab. (Although in my personal experience, RoboLab kicks backsides).
   
   -Skye



1. Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 17:09:30 GMT
   Sorry about venting here. But I'm just getting tired of seeing teams max out after two or three years in FLL and not having avenues for doing more advanced work. I've seen this happen with a few teams in Minnesota. After a while all that is left is perfect scores, winning trophies, and going to the world festival.
   
   My rookie team of 4th graders last year scored highest in the state on their research presentation (not the best project, but a good one, a fun presentation and a near perfect Q&A). Their robot programs were far better than any NXT-G programs I saw at the regional tournaments where I judged. They are a little weak on robot design, but have a reasonable grasp of mechanical principles, and the physics of how simple machines work. They just need to learn how that translates into LEGO.
   
   What am I going to do next year, or the year after when they figure out the robot building, and they can do the programming in their sleep? I don't want FLL to be all about trophies.
   
   Well, I guess there's always the research project.
   
   Dean Hystad



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/12/2007 18:25:13 GMT
   Dean,
   
   I understand your frustration. But other than a few dozen teams in your situation, the rulling makes sense.
   
   You can always attempt a perfect score with just one outing from base! Only been once by the Flying Geeks last year. They pressed the run button, sat back and 1'23" later they had a perfect score.
   
   Or, I have always wanted to get my team to solve all the missions on the board incorrectly such that their score would be zero but would cause major gasps of wonder from the audience. Things like putting the truck on the house roof and the uranium on the oil platform. But they would not bite. Go figure.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by:0222520A 09/12/2007 21:57:54 GMT
   I've worked with teams that have resorted to similar strategies to keep FLL interesting. Just in case you've ever wondered, omni-directional and Killough platforms are not effective in FLL competition. And pneumatics is a really slow way to climb stairs.
   
   But it takes a twisted, perhaps even slightly damaged, brain (like the Abby Normal one in Young Frankenstein) to find such activities entertaining. Though there is a strong appeal to me, my team's parents probably don't want their girls to become too much like coach.
   
   Not to belittle Flying Geeks accomplishment (truely astounding), but the challenge last year was way too easy. I doubt they'll succeed at repeating the feat this year (But man would that be cool!) My guess is that perfect scores will be few.
   
   Dean Hystad



1. Message by: Flying Geeks 528 10/09/2007 23:44:14 GMT
   Hi Dean,
   This is Coach B from the Flying Geeks. In my opinion, there were several things that all aligned last year which allowed us to do what we did:
   1. Nothing to crawl over (that would have messed up our ability to use our light sensors to navigate)
   2. Nothing to bring back to base.
   3. A Cooperative combined mission (allowed us to do things in the order we wanted, not mandated by speed)
   4. LINES
   5. Literally Hundreds of hours of programming, programming, and reprogramming.
   
   Our kids decided early on they didn't want to put in all the time again (our team has split into two teams this year and our experienced kids have been split accordingly). We were considering doing it all in two missions, but in the end decided to try it in 5 trips.



2. Message by: lightsavers2634 10/31/2007 20:25:55 GMT
   One could always place the Hydrogen car and the trees on the roof, ring the uranium on the smoke stack of the power plant, and ring the red uranium on the satalite pointer. Not only would you impress the crowd, but you would still score well.
   
   -David (the kid)



3. Message by: brian001 09/12/2007 14:18:51 GMT
   Skye, National Instruments has a program in place to provide a student version of LabVIEW 7.1 free of charge to folks who wish to use it on the NXT, either to program directly or author NXTG blocks (on theNXTstep blog, search for the "LabVIEW Toolkit released" post on 5 Dec 06, there's a link in the comments). It's certainly not for everybody, and I think the average FLL team would have atrouble (and the average FLL coach a lot *more* trouble) using this. But it is an option that NI is providing FREE from them (still amazing).
   
   As to the original question, the miniblocks were authored by NI at least in part due to the heavy comments in these forums about program size... but they've built a lot of that ability right into the "stock" blocks in 1.1, so it's no longer the issue it was.
   
   --
   Brian Davis



4. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/12/2007 22:41:38 GMT
   As a coach, the kids on my teams have not run out of things to learn in programming in 5 years. The NXT-G software can be very powerful, or very simple, teams choose. Last years challenge was for the kids to make a my-block that would accelerate from power setting 0 to the given power "p" in the given time "t" and go exactly the distance "d" decelerating 10% from the end of the distance. The thought was that the start and stop of the robot was jeryk. The myblock was cool and the robot ran much better. Without help it took the better part of 3 months to get it right.
   
   Perhaps your kids teacher is too good :) Can you come help me?
   
   Laura

Discussion: Unofficial FLL Frequently Asked Questions (UFAQ) available By: FLL-Freak 09/08/2007 18:56:32 GMT
Fellow FLLer,

Please consider reading the Unofficial FLL FAQ (UFAQ) before posting your questions. The UFAQ is the result of

condensing the posting from the previous four seasons. All the non-challenge specific questions have likely

already been answered.

The UFAQ was not authored by FIRST, but rather by coaches like you.

You can find the UFAQ at:

http://www.fll-freak.com/faq

Skye Sweeney

Discussion: NXT Data Hubs By: SWAT1579 09/25/2007 13:06:06 GMT
I'm trying to teach our team how data hubs work, but can't get them to work myself. I tried doing a simple example: use a math block to add A (=10) + B (=10) to give an output of 20. I wired the output to the input terminal of the "duration" option on the hub. I'm expecting the motor to turn for 20 seconds. However, it only runs for a second or 2, depending on the selections I make in the "duration" box on the motor's configuration window.
Thanks for any help.

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/24/2007 03:14:37 GMT
   Are you using version 1.1?
   
   I assume you used a Math operation (+-*/ on the icon) and set the A and B to 10 and 10. Then you selected the addition operation from the pulldown box.
   
   Next I assume you added a Move after the math icon and opened up the data hub. You then connected the Math output (#) to the duration input (left side circle with arrow).
   
   Now you should have selected Rotations and the proper motors. If this is what you did, it should have worked. If it did not, post a test program for us to look at.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: SWAT1579 09/25/2007 05:05:59 GMT
   Hi Skye,
   I think it's working now, but first I'll answer your questions.
   We're on version 1.0, which shipped with the NXT set purchased last year, as well as this year.
   Your assumptions are correct about the blocks I was using.
   
   Here's what I found out, after reviewing the plug characteristics (the table that shows allowable data types, ranges, etc) shown at the bottom of the page of the motor block help page, and then experimenting some more.
   
   You can choose "seconds" in the duration pull-down menu of the motor configuration block, but the duration is in milliseconds, not seconds. (There's an error in the plug characteristics table at the bottom of the page, because it says "seconds = seconds".) So for the math block I used A=10,000 and B=5,000, and the motor ran for 15 seconds, as expected. (If you choose "rotations" or "degrees" from the drop down box, it will read the output from the math block in degrees.) I don't know why the duration input window isn't greyed out when you select "seconds" from the pull down menu, since it's now controlled by the math block, but that's a minor bug.
   
   Thanks for your help.
   -John



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/25/2007 13:06:06 GMT
   John,
   
   This is great information and one of the best technical posts this season. Thank you ever so much for taking the time to providing this information. As such you have just won one of my yearly prizes!
   
   Send me an email at skye@fll-freak.com and I will send you a list of items you can choose from. These include a spare rechargable battery, a Bluetooth dongle, and packages of spare LEGO parts.
   
   Congratulations!
   
   And for the rest of you, exceptional posts may yeild you a prize. These include good technical, funny, or otherwise interesting posts.
   
   -Skye

Discussion: software By: Fric*ya 09/28/2007 01:07:21 GMT
Why does fll allow NXT-G, RIS, and robolab, but not robotc or nxc.

Why allow robolab which is a none lego software and not robotc. I can see why if they only allowed nxt-g and RIS but robolab that just wrong.

Ethan

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/25/2007 19:00:31 GMT
   Ethan,
   
   This is often a sore subject with coaches, mentors, and students.
   
   Their are two answeres. Neither is ideal.
   
   1) Since this program is sponsored by LEGO, it was felt that LEGO products (RIS, NXT-G, and Robolab) should be used.
   
   2) It was felt that offering a more complex and difficult language opened up the possibility for adult abuse. That since other languages might be too hard for the kids to learn that the coaches or mentors might step in.
   
   But in the end it does not matter what the reason(s) are. The rules are the rules and we must live with them. If you do not agree with them, I would suggest a well crafted and reasoned email to FIRST.
   
   -Skye



1. Message by: Fric*ya 09/25/2007 19:23:22 GMT
   "Since this program is sponsored by LEGO, it was felt that LEGO products (RIS, NXT-G, and Robolab) should be used."
   
   RobotLab is not by Lego thought.
   
   Ethan



2. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/25/2007 19:52:55 GMT
   Robolab is a product of National Instruments, the same group that makes the NXT-G software. fyi
   
   Laura



1. Message by:0222520A 09/25/2007 21:04:15 GMT
   No, ROBOLAB (note capitalization) is a product of Tuft's university. I know because I was involved in the beta testing for the 2.9 version. It is based on LabView, which is a product of National Instruments. ROBOLAB was the preferred language of the LEGO Education division.
   
   NXT-G is a product of LEGO, produced in conjunction with National Instruments. Like ROBOLAB it is based on LabView.
   
   RCX Code (lets call it RCX-C) is another LEGO product. It's the language that came with the RIS kit. It is a LEGO product, but I'd bet the MIT Media Lab had some input.
   
   Why are ROBOLAB, NXT-G and RCX-C the only programming choices? The only reason that I can come up with is that FLL was not able to limit the programming choices to 1.
   
   Many FLL teams would be school teams. And schools use ROBOLAB, not RCX-C. RCX-C lacked the data logging and analysis capabilities that ROBOLAB has. It was a poor choice for doing the kind of programming that schools needed. You don't want to make your education customer base angry, so ROBOLAB is allowed.
   
   Other FLL teams would be neighborhood or club based. These teams likely have the RCX-C software, not ROBOLAB. You can't ban the software that comes in the box, so RCX-C is allowed.
   
   NXT-G is the new software in the box, so it has to be allowed too. LEGO has I migration path for schools to move from ROBOLAB to NXT-G. NXT-G is to take on more LabView capabilities (probably better data logging and some data analysis tools). FLL probably has a migration path too. Some day RCX will no longer be a choice, ROBOLAB will be gone, and FLL will finally have what it wants. One robot platform and one programming language.



1. Message by: LEGOJuniors 09/26/2007 19:12:03 GMT
   I concur with Dean. I suspect FLL's goal is to get to a single supported language. No future versions of ROBOLAB are planned and NXT-G will be enhanced to provide better datalogging capabilities. NXT-G will also serve as an entry point to the rest of the LabView product line.
   
   In the current environment though, (I believe) ROBOTC is the only language for RCX or NXT that LEGO Education sells that isn't supported as an FLL language. A strong argument can be made that ROBOTC is comparable to ROBOLAB in many ways:
   
   - A "product" of a university (Tufts vs. Carnegie Mellon)
   - Sold by LEGO Education
   - Supports both RCX and NXT
   
   Given the history that Dean listed though, I think there is an important distinction - I believe ROBOTC has only recently been added as a product that LEGO Education sells. Another important distinction is that ROBOTC is a syntax-based language rather than drag-and-drop.
   
   Personally, I would love to see ROBOTC allowed as a language for FLL. My reason for wanting ROBOTC allowed is because I view it as a great next step for students in their progression toward learning more mainstream programming languages (which I teach). I can still do that with students, just not in the context of FLL.
   
   However, when you are talking about a competition, there is strong benefit to having all teams on as "uniform" a playing field as possible. Each language (and associated firmware) has it's differences. Some of those differences can be directly tied to performance differences for the robots. FLL celebrates the different solutions that teams come up with - it strives to not being about tool selection and hidden competitive advantages. Uniformity of the robot and programming tool is necessary for that focus.
   
   I also believe that "uniformity" is why the starting point for the Research Project is more standardized this year - but that is another topic... ;-)
   
   - Larry Langellier



3. Message by: NCFIRST 09/27/2007 03:12:54 GMT
   Actually, I believe the reason that Robolab was originally allowed when FLL began is because...when the RCX first came out, the language it came with, RIS, was not compatible on a Mac. When Robolab was introduced, it allowed RCX owners using a Mac the chance to also play. So in the beginning, if you were using a Mac, the only choice of language was Robolab.
   
   Marie
   who loves her Macs!



1. Message by: FLL-Freak 09/27/2007 04:23:29 GMT
   And Robolab was the only thing that would work on Windows NT.
   
   -Skye



4. Message by: Fric*ya 09/27/2007 04:29:19 GMT
   "Actually, I believe the reason that Robolab was originally allowed when FLL began is because...when the RCX first came out, the language it came with, RIS, was not compatible on a Mac. When Robolab was introduced, it allowed RCX owners using a Mac the chance to also play. So in the beginning, if you were using a Mac, the only choice of language was Robolab."
   
   I think you are the winner thats one of the two good reason that and that schools love robolab
   
   Ethan



5. Message by: brian001 09/28/2007 01:07:21 GMT
   > Their are two answeres. Neither is ideal.
   
   There's at least one more important possibility - that it's arbitrary. Keep in mind that FLL is a simple robot that arbitrarily can only be made of LEGO, running around in a limited domain (4x8) with an arbitrary and highly-formalized set of tasks dealing with small simple structures. If FIRST limits (with little "real world" consideration) the field size, robot construction materials, tasks, and the scoring system, why would it be surprising that there are also somewhat arbitrary constraints on the programming environment?
   
   It might be important to note here that the goal is not to teach kids how to use advanced programming languages, any more than it's important to teach them how to move small pieces of plastic within a 4x8 flat environment marked with a series of solid-colored symbols... it's about teaching things like problem-solving methods, gracious professionalism, cooperation, team building, research (remember that aspect?), etc. The rest is window dressing (although admitedly window dressing that's a lot of fun for kids and adults alike).
   
   --
   Brian "if i didn't like arbitrary constraints, why on Earth would I choose only to build with LEGO?" Davis

Discussion: striaght line -- frustration By: MindstormTroopers1928 12/10/2007 21:33:36 GMT
Having a problem with the robot.

The robot has two motors to turn the wheels and one motor for an arm. The robot is also not balanced. The arm motor hangs off the right side of the robot. The motor speeds had to be changed to compensate for the robot pulling to the side with the most weight -- the right side. B&C have different speeds.

The robot will not go in a straight line. One run it does, the next it does not for the same program. Nothing is different. The alignment is the same, the program is the same. It is very frustrating.

1. Message by:0222520A 10/02/2007 03:08:38 GMT
   You have three options:
   
   1: Make the robot go straight.
   2: Design the missions so they don't depend on the robot going straight.
   3: Use additional sensors so the robot doesn't have to depend on going straight.
   
   Most teams choose option 1, which is a mistake. Option 1 is the weakest solution and solves the least number of problems. If you have a robot that can go perfectly straight you still need to make accurate turns and precisely position the robot at the start of the run. And a robot that runs well at home may (will) act differently on a different table at the tournament.
   
   Good teams chose option 2 last season. I saw a lot of high scoring robots that used wall following, wall squaring and self aligning brackets. These teams realize that "close enough" is often "good enough" when a few tweaks are added in.
   
   Option 3 is a viable choice this year. The mat has lots of landmarks that can be used to navigate around. Line following has long been a staple of FLL, but it is not the only form of landmark navigation, and often isn't the best choice. Sometimes just driving to a line, or until you bump into something will get you where you want to go.
   
   But back to the straight line robot question. How well built is your robot? Would you feel comfortable picking it up by one wheel and giving it a little shake? If your robot isn't solid enough to be picked up by a wheel why would you expect the wheels to stay solidly aligned under the robot?
   
   Where is the weight centered on your robot? The best answer is centered between the driving wheels. Weight on the wheels makes them less likely to slip, and wheel slip is bad (unless it is a balance wheel instead of a driving wheel, the slipping is good).
   
   Do your wheels push or pull your robot? Which way do you think will make your robot go straighter? Can you think of an experiment to prove your hypothesis?
   
   Once you get your robot working well you are probably going to want to test it on different surfaces. If it works on the table and on a slippery floor it is less likely to be affected by things like dust on the mat, or changes in humidity or temperature.
   
   How much is your robot effected if the table isn't flat. No table is perfectly flat, and some aren't even close.
   
   I could go on, but this should be enough to get started. Robot design is something that even 6th year been to the World Festival in Atlanta teams still get wrong on occasion. Don't despair when things don't work as expected. Think of it as another great opportunity to learn.
   
   Dean Hystad



1. Message by: MindstormTroopers1928 10/02/2007 14:24:13 GMT
   Dean:
   
   Thanks so much. I will pose some of questions to the team and see where they go from there. They had previously tried the follow the line with light sensors (worked ok) and moved on to the one that is currently the issue -- go straight, turn when wall detected using different sensors.
   
   Cathy



2. Message by: awesome5188aces 10/31/2007 19:03:43 GMT
   well im new so i don't know whats the best way to do this, but we found that for the oil drilling mission it was hard to get over to the side with the thing you have to hit. What i thought that we could do is place the the arm in the middle to even out the weight but then turn it out after it was off of the robot so it goes to the right. that way most of the weight was on the middle of the robot. I dont know how well this will work but i thought it might. we haven't got the arm built yet but i hope that it will work. then the next problem was getting it to pull then stuff back! thats what i think but im no expert.XD



1. Message by: HighlandHuskies1552 12/10/2007 21:25:48 GMT
   That mission turned out to be one of our team's most reliable mission. The challenge is that if you drop one of the barrels into the ocean, it's a 40 point deduction (ouch). So, we have a massive catch net jig that covers every conceivable space underneath the platform, and we have a forked wedge in front to force the jig to position itself perfectly in front of the platform. Then we have a sledge hammer on the left side that comes down with the help of a little "shaking" by the robot. To control the force of the impact, we positioned an adjustable shock absorber on the left front end of the jig, and have an adjustable stand for the sledge hammer to lean on (for sensitivity control). When we go from base to the oil platform, we purposely drift left and slide against the wall in order to reach the oil platform at the correct angle. The fork in front locks the jig in place, and the sledge hammer comes down when the robot shakes it a little. After the hammer hit, we had to make sure we wait long enough to catch the oil barrels. Then the robot simply pulls straight back and go home. And yes, be careful that the sledge hammer might get caught by the oil platform. We shaped the sledge hammer accordingly and wrap a layer of ribbon cable around it so it can slide easily out of the oil platform.
   
   It worked perfectly in most of the runs - except one when the kid forgot to raise the sledge hammer before starting (DONG!!!)
   
   If only our other jigs performed as good, we might just qualify to go to regional!



3. Message by: HighlandHuskies1552 12/10/2007 21:06:34 GMT
   I totally agree with Dean. Our team spent a lot of time making the robot work straight and we finally got it to move pretty straight - only to see it failed mystically and miseribly during competition. An air bubble here, a non-even grading over there, an unexpected skid, a little dust or small debris (not kidding) here and there - can all contribute to throw the robot off-course. Not to mention the unexpected sloth between gears, uneven weight distributions, latent response from the motor (dead-band) - plus a gazillion other factors. Our mistake was to spend so much time working on making the robot go straight that we didn't spent enough time focusing on doing the missions. That, along with unexpected problems throw at us by Robolab, has made this year a poor performaning year for us (BUT WE WILL BE BACK!!!)
   
   I watched in amazement Sunday how the top performing team this year did their trick. They have a rather massive RCX robot that roams around veryyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy slowly but this robot gets to where it needs to go very accurately. I was told that it maxes out on sensors (light, rotation, and multiple touch sensors). When it gets there, it just do its tricks. They only have to change jig once and eventhough it moved so very slowly, it completed all but one (the oil platform) mission and scored 386 points!!!
   
   So, from our painful experience, I would say don't worry so much that the robot isn't walking straight - just get it to work straight enough and focus on utilizing landmarks to help. sliding along the wall is a wonderful way of walking straight!
   
   BTW: An interesting thing about that team. They divided their team members into two groups. Team 1 is named "Future Engineers of America - RCX", and team 2 is named "Future Engineers of America - NXT" and entered to compete with each other. They took home 1st and 2nd place robot performance award with the NXT team won only by 5 points: 385 vs 380!!! However, the RCX team took home the 1st place overall award.
   
   These two teams were wonderful.
   

Discussion: Software working on Windows VISTA By: MindstormTroopers1928 10/11/2007 19:18:49 GMT
The following is a quote from the the NXT software announcement on the MINDSTORM NXT section of the US FLL site:

"Teams who purchase the NXT Robot Set in 2007 will be sent a free upgrade when it is introduced in September. In the meantime, teams should practice using the current version of the software included in the NXT Robot Set."

Has anyone received this?

Do I need to do anything to obtain the upgrade -- I purchased two kits in June 2007?

Thanks,
Cathy

Discussion: light sensors By: edgewoodorange5471 11/10/2007 01:07:32 GMT
where can I learn to use a light sensor? do you reccomend a certain web site? Thanks!

1. Message by: FLL-Freak 11/10/2007 01:07:32 GMT
   Both the www.hightechkids.org and the www.ortop.org websited have information/tutorials. So do some of the NXT blog sites.
   
   -Skye

Discussion: User Profiles with MyBlocks confuses paths By: EndlessEnergy1991 11/30/2007 22:10:15 GMT
My team uses LEGO MINDSTORMS Education NXT V1.1. The programs have gotten complex enough to use MyBlocks as subroutines. At every team session we make drastic changes to the programs. Sometimes the changes are not good, so we keep a backup copy. We discovered the "Manage Profiles" feature and "User Profile" selection. This seemed perfect. It is really just a subdirectory under the root: "LEGO Creations" - "MINDSTORMS Projects" - "Profiles" - "MyProfileName". We name the profiles by the date and copy the whole previous directory forward ("MyBlocks" is a subdirectory under each profile). So far, so good... Now, since the school has a computer lab, we have kids developing on different PC's and saving their work to a shared drive. Here's the bad news. When the updated MyBlock is copied from the shared drive to the dated profile, SOMETIMES the download tool gets confused and compiles the wrong source. The development environment looks fine, but the NXT runs the wrong MyBlock. We make changes on the PC, re-download, and nothing changes. If we delete the old MyBlock file SOMETIMES diagnostic error dialogs popup on the PC. At this point, we have to re-create all the MyBlocks for the current profile. It is very frustrating to make excuses for the software to kids who want to believe it is reliable. Has anyone else seen this or solved this?

1. Message by: HCA3835 11/30/2007 21:21:48 GMT
   We've also had the problem with NXT-G v.1.1 looking into the default profile directory for My Blocks instead of the current profile directory. Our problem was that we copied a whole profile from one directory to another. The settings.ini file is copied also and that file points to the old directory for data. So the solution was to copy only the user-generated files into the new profile. You can check by opening the settings.ini file located in each profile directory and see where the data directory field is pointing. You can edit this file to fix broken links, but don't edit it while NXT-G is running or it will not see your changes.



1. Message by:0222520A 11/30/2007 22:10:15 GMT
   I have seen this happen also. What works for me is to close all the open files, change to a different profile and then change back.

---

Folder: NXT) NXT-G Questions 03/25/2008 20:04:37 GMT


Discussion: new software already? By: 01D3B26C 09/02/2007 00:01:01 GMT
I just got a notification that my NXT software update has shipped! I heard it had been put off till October, so this seems pretty early! Of course, I'm happy about it!

David

1. Message by: hoffman1702 08/22/2007 04:03:20 GMT
   Mine has been shipped as well...and I was wondering if anyone knows...will this work with Vista and the new Intel Macs? I'm running on Mac, but we are trying to find a cheap PC laptop to dedicate to FLL. Right now I'm running OS X Tiger, but bluetooth is not picking up the brick. Anyone else have this problem?
   
   Anyone know if the new software will fix the bluetooth issue as well?
   
   Cynthia
   1st time coach!



1. Message by: PISDFLL1357 08/22/2007 16:51:28 GMT
   NXT Software 1.1 is native on Intel Macs for certain and I'm pretty sure it supports Vista.
   
   I suspect it *might* fix your Bluetooth issue, but then I've had no problems with NXT 1.0 on my Intel iMac running OS X 10.4.



1. Message by: hoffman1702 08/26/2007 02:57:57 GMT
   Just so all the Mac people get this info...I called the Tech Services number on the new software and they walked me through the Bluetooth setup. Operator error! I was getting recognition on both the brick and my Intel MacBook (running OSX 10.4.10), I just allowed a red message at the bottom to interfere with continuing the setup.
   
   The Tech Services guy walked me through it and I am cooking!
   
   Now to use it with the robot.
   
   Thanks,
   
   Cynthia



2. Message by:01D3B26C 08/22/2007 21:14:50 GMT
   I'm not sure about the Mac issue, but I sure hope we can use more than just the crappy windows bluetooth stack with this new release. There are much better stacks out there that should work just fine and will allow me to use more types of devices on my laptop.
   
   David



1. Message by:01D3B26C 08/29/2007 15:53:31 GMT
   I've tested on my laptop that has a Toshiba bluetooth stack installed. The NXT software won't find the brick with this installed. Looks like I'll have to back it out and revert to the Win XP stack (though it sounds like the widcomm stack will work)



3. Message by: Firedroids 59 08/26/2007 00:16:13 GMT
   I have a one year old 17 inch Intel IMAC with OS X Tiger 10.4.something and it does not connect to the NXT either. If you find a cheap portable laptop that connects with Bluetooth, let me know. Beware of new Dell laptops; they are not compatible with the NXT.



1. Message by: hoffman1702 08/26/2007 03:00:00 GMT
   Call the Tech Support number on the new software...they walked me through it and it works fine. I'm was in exactly the same boat. There's no reason why it shouldn't work.
   
   C



2. Message by: under pressure 1131 08/28/2007 04:38:04 GMT
   Define "new Dell laptops" What do you mean by "not compatible with NXT"? We bought our Dell last season and were planning to purchase a second one in a week or so.
   
   Michelina Beam
   Coach Under Pressure
   North Bay, Ontario



4. Message by:01BB3A8C 09/02/2007 00:01:01 GMT
   Our 2 year old Dell laptop is still running Windows' XP and we are not having any issues. The new NXT software also works just fine on the new Dell Desktop that is about a month old and uses Vista.

Discussion: NXT start programs fast By: Fric*ya 10/05/2007 21:08:52 GMT
I was wondering what other team did with the NXT to be able to run start the next program faster. I know some team made it so when you hit the nxt button on the right it ands a veriable and then you hit the nxt orange button it runs that my block.

My question is how do I. First add a variable if i bump the right nxt button and subtract a variable if i bump the left nxt button. Then I want it to run my block 1 or my block 2 depending on if the number is 1 or 2.

Can and one send me a screenshoot of how to do that or help me figure out how to add a variable and then have the nxt read that.

Thanks,

Ethan Steckmann

1. Message by:0222520A 08/24/2007 04:30:53 GMT
   Ethan,
   
   Jumping from the NXTStep forum to the FLL forum in an attempt to escape my ever vigilant eye? Won't work buddy. I'm everywhere. Stop asking for screen shots. This is a question you can answer yourself.
   
   Ask yourself "How can I find out if the right button was pressed?" Here's a hint, on the NXT the buttons are treated like they a special touch sensor. One more hint. There are different sensor block actions. You may be most interested in "Bumped".
   
   As to variables, read the help files. They show how to MANAGE variables, and what different TYPES of variables there are. What type of variable to you think you can do MATH with. In case you're wondering the capitalized words are important.
   
   Dean Hystad



1. Message by: Fric*ya 08/24/2007 04:47:31 GMT
   I know that you dont like me/me asking for screen shots but i cant help that but will try and post more about how its comming here is my program for now and it works ok but i would like to be able to add more programs then the first two the top of the program work then i added the second half os the and that doesnt work o well im morking on it.
   
   Ethan



2. Message by:0222520A 08/24/2007 06:55:16 GMT
   Ethan,
   
   Glad to see you putting in some work. I looked at your program and you are on the right track. You have the switch statements that are watching for the button presses, you have loops that are checking many times for button presses, and you are drawing information to the screen to tell the operator what is going on. You are getting close, but you are missing a few key points and that is making things way to hard on you.
   
   First off, how many loops do you really want? If you were the NXT, how would you check for the button pushes, all at the same time or one at a time? There are some problems associated with running multiple threads of execution (branching off) in NXT programs. Multi-threading can be very powerful, but sometimes it is not the best way to solve a problem.
   
   But your major sticking point is what to do when the buttons get pressed. Here a little abstraction is called for.
   
   Abstraction is a very powerful programming tool. Without abstraction even simple problems become so complex that we haven't a hope for solving them. With abstraction we are able to simplify the problem to something that we can handle. You need an abstraction for what mission you want to run.
   
   In the RCX days we didn't have to worry about this. You had 5 program slots and a button that changed the program slot. If you were in slot 1 and pushed the button it changed to program slot 2. You could tell it changed to slot 2 because the number 2 was displayed on the screen. Press the button again it the program slot changed to 3. When you got to the correct program slot you pressed the run button and the program ran.
   
   Is this a workable abstraction? Giving each program or mission a number adding one to the number each time you press a button? Heck, we can do better than that because we have three buttons instead of two. We can have an add one button and a subtract one button. The third button is the run mission button.
   
   So now you have a workable abstraction. How do you come up with an implimentation? Your example program shows that you know how to loop and check if a button was pressed. You also know how to write to the screen. All that is left is adding or subtracting from the program number. How do you do that? You need a place to keep the program number. A place that keeps the program number until you need it. In NXT speak we call these things variables. A variable holds a thing (logic, text or number) until you need to use it.
   
   Take a good look at the variable block and it's help text. Then take another stab at your program. I would first try to just get a number to change using the buttons, and draw the number on the screen. When you get that working you are almost done.
   
   Good Luck,
   
   Dean Hystad



3. Message by: Fric*ya 08/24/2007 08:17:56 GMT
   thanks i will do that and let you now how it goes thanks for your help and not just saying stop asking for screen shots.
   
   i will post my new file when i get is working or if i need help so if you could check back often that would be great or if i could get your email/skype/gmail chat then i could just ask you.
   
   ethan
   
   my email is mindstormmaster1@gmail.com
   
   o and check out my site @ mindstormmaster1.freeweb7.com



4. Message by: 7 guys and a robot3367 10/05/2007 21:08:52 GMT
   Hello FLL forums,
   
   As a fellow student and FLL member, I was wondering about the ruling on adding basic wings to the NXT robot to make it more original. Would this be allowed in competition?
   
   love,
   someone
   
   P.S. It would be TROGDOR the robot!

Discussion: NXT start programs fast By: Fric*ya 09/15/2007 17:09:10 GMT
I was wondering what other team did with the NXT to be able to run start the next program faster. I know some team made it so when you hit the nxt button on the right it ands a veriable and then you hit the nxt orange button it runs that my block.

My question is how do I. First add a variable if i bump the right nxt button and subtract a variable if i bump the left nxt button. Then I want it to run my block 1 or my block 2 depending on if the number is 1 or 2.

Can and one send me a screenshoot of how to do that or help me figure out how to add a variable and then have the nxt read that.

Thanks,

Ethan Steckmann

1. Message by: brian001 09/12/2007 00:33:14 GMT
   Well, have you tried something like writing a program that assigns a value to a variable, and then reads and displays that on the screen? And if you can do that, try making a program that reads a value from a variable, adds one, and then writes that new value to the variable (& again displays it to the screen). You've got a good idea... try to puzzle out a good way to start learning the tools you need.
   
   --
   Brian Davis



1. Message by: 09/13/2007 23:59:23 GMT
   Deleted



2. Message by: FloridaModirator 09/14/2007 17:25:44 GMT
   Be very careful using these examples in your programs. If the kids can not explain what the guts of the program are doing, they will be seriously downgraded in their technical scores.
   
   If you want your team to use these concepts, teach them how to do the work themselves, don't let the team copy the code and don't make the blocks for the kids.
   
   It is better to have them switch programs the old fashion way rather than use code they did not write themselves.
   
   Laura



3. Message by: Fric*ya 09/14/2007 17:43:27 GMT
   Florida FLL Partner you are very right. I would never do that to my team.
   
   Ethan



1. Message by: brian001 09/15/2007 04:26:33 GMT
   Good, because the author of those examples might be involved with FLL as well ;-).
   
   --
   Brian Davis



4. Message by: Fric*ya 09/15/2007 04:59:29 GMT
   "Good, because the author of those examples might be involved with FLL as well"
   
   Ya because you wrote them and you are a judge.
   
   But not to fear my team is super smart and will figure it out in no time at all
   
   Ethan



1. Message by: brian001 09/15/2007 15:20:57 GMT
   Just make sure that your team can work it out for themselves, from scratch. The idea is that they can work out the problems - not that they can see a solution, and then see how it works, but that they can *derive a solution in the first place*. For instance, the way I did it is not the only one - or even a particularly good solution. If you show this to your team (or use it yourself), you will be sharply limiting the number of solutions you can come up with for the problem.
   
   If instead you treat it as an example of what's possible, and assure your team it's possible and "why don't we figure out how to work it out", well... *then* you are developing your team's skills at problem solving - not just at "solution understanding". As a teacher, trust me, there's a huge difference between those two... and FLL is about the former.
   
   I'm not worried about you being "caught" by a judge, and that shouldn't really be the motivation for working it out - it's the fact tha